Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/World Flags

Northern Ireland

This is listed as a proposed flag, it isn't its the flag of a defunct Loyalist group Ulster Nation that wanted a independent Ulster free from rule by either Britain or the Republic of Ireland.

This The Starry Plough is the flag of Republican Socialists was also the flag of the Irish Citizen Army that took part in the Easter Rising in 1916. It is not a proposed new flag.

This Sunburst Flag is the flag of Na Fianna Éireann the youth wing of the Irish Republican Army. It is not a proposed new flag.

This File:North flagproposal1111.JPG is not a flag nor was ever a proposal as a new flag for Northern Ireland it was created as a piss take of the PSNI banner by an editor and uploaded to WP as a joke.--padraig 19:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Now I know this article is part of an Wikiproject and not intended as part of WP Main space, but don't you's think it should be factual.--padraig 19:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any of these flags should be on this project page. All of the flags Padraig has listed are described with proper context on the Northern Ireland flags issue article (which is clearly linked from Flag of Northern Ireland) and I don't think this article should attempt to replicate that content, especially by showing the images only, without the proper context.

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure just what the purpose of this page is, since we already have many well done list and gallery pages (all found in Category:Lists of flags). Are we trying to summarize all of those pages onto a single page here? Andrwsc 19:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I see this as an all-including reference page and should as such naturally be accurate. Gallery pages are typically more limited in scope and has larger image representations. In any case, flag galleries might be moved off the main namespace alltogether; c.f. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gallery of city flags --Himasaram 03:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well as it stands it is not accurate, as I pointed out above those flags are not proposed replacement for the former flag.--padraig 11:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry but I dont spend 90% of my life reading about these things padraig pointed out. And as for Andrwsc why do you bother editing this list if you think it's a waste of space... Highfields 15:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• The Article Has Now Been Made Acurate Acording To The Comments Above Highfields 15:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Saint Patrick's saltire is never used to represent Northern Ireland itself the flag had minor use to represent the whole of Ireland as part of the UK but that is it. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 00:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

• Shouldnt the Ulster Banner be in the historical section not the current section?--Vintagekits 20:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I see the Ulster banner is still being used here as the flag of Northern Ireland, this should be changed to the Union flag, see: this gives the official flags for each part of the UK.--Padraig (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

• I really don't care, we have made a decision from consensus to use the Ulster Banner and have put a link to the flag dispute page, why don't you just leave it be! Highfields (talk) (contribs) 14:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Because the flag is wrong, and the Union flag is the only official flag as shown in the link I provided above, the content of wikipedia is based on WP:RS and WP:V which that image fail to meet, and consensus cannot override those policies, it is not the role of editors to invent flags when none exist.--Padraig (talk) 15:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• If this was a main space page I would agree but it isn't, its a referance list for a wikiproject and when that wikiproject decides it is going to use the most commonly used flag then it doesn't matter if it is official, it matters that it is most common and most used and that as you arn't a member there isn't anything you can do about that until you are Highfields (talk) (contribs) 15:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Until I'am a member I can't do anything about it, is that right, care to point out under which Wikipeadia policy that rule comes under, and this article is part of the wikipeadia main space just as any other wikiproject page is, and editing of such is not restricted to just members of your little club. If you want editors to take your wikiproject seriously then at least display factual information, the Ulster Banner was never the flag of Northern Ireland even in the period from 1953-72, it was a governmental banner used solely to represent the former government.--Padraig (talk) 15:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Fine, until further notice I will change the flag to the Union Jack but don't expect it to be a permenant change! Highfields (talk) (contribs) 15:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted. Until Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg is deleted from Commons, the image needs to be included on this project directory of flag images. The wikilinks after the image are fully sufficient to describe the flag's status. The only "factual information" that is relevant on this project page is the list of images, and the associated Wikipedia articles for each image. The page does not need to be sourced with a full set of references; that is what the Wikipedia articles are for. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Surely WP isn't a censor. If the Union Flag isn't used then the only logical alternative is the Ulster Banner, like it or not. I'm happy with either. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If the Union Flag is not used then NO flag image should be used, the Ulster Banner is not and never was the flag of N Ireland, and it is not the place of Wikipedia to invent flags.--Padraig (talk) 15:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for this project page

And as for Andrwsc why do you bother editing this list if you think it's a waste of space... Highfields 15:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? I'm not supposed to edit or make comments about pages I think need improving? I think you need to read Wikipedia:Assume good faith and apply it here. I never said this page was a "waste of space", so don't make that assumption.

My question was entirely appropriate, so I'll repeat it again: just what is the purpose of this project page?. It certainly isn't clear from its sparsest of introductory paragraphs: "This is a list of world flags.". Um, ok. So is the intent to include every possible world flag here? And what exactly is a "world flag"? The list includes many sub-national entities at this point - do we keep going and include things like the Image:Municipal Flag of Chicago.svg? Do we include all 27 historical variants of the U.S. flag and all 17 past versions of the flag of Afghanistan? Are there any boundaries at all on what should or should not be included here?

There are several thousand flag images that could be put here. Do we want this single page to have that? All the images used here are 22x20px icon images. Is that really more useful than the typical 100px images seen on pages like List of British flags or List of Canadian flags?

If I may make a suggestion without being harassed for having the audacity of being so bold, then perhaps the best purpose of this page is to serve as a top-level directory for all the more detailed articles, lists and galleries, only including the "main" flags for each territory but directly including the links to the appropriate pages. For example, the United Kingdom section could look like:

United Kingdom

• United Kingdom — see also Flag of the United Kingdom, Union Flag, and List of British flags

Great Britain

• England — see also Flag of England and List of English flags
• Scotland — see also Flag of Scotland and List of Scottish flags
• Wales — see also Flag of Wales and List of Welsh flags

Northern Ireland

• Northern Ireland — see also Flag of Northern Ireland, Ulster Banner, List of Northern Irish flags, and Northern Ireland flag issue

Crown Dependencies

• Jersey — see also Flag of Jersey
• Guernsey — see also Flag of Guernsey
• Isle of Man — see also Flag of the Isle of Man

I'd like to see a discussion about how this page can be made more useful instead of some of the sniping exhibited above. Andrwsc 16:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry if I snapped at you but I just had to take time of for stress and as for your suggestion we could put links to related flag pages or split it into several pages but I dont have the time to do it Highfields 17:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:Andrwsc) Ok, thanks for that! I'm not suggesting that you do all the work either - I'm just looking for some guidelines for that page, and it can evolve towards that goal over time, with assistance from any editor who wants to help with the task, one section at a time. Thanks, Andrwsc 17:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• I dont mind doing some Highfields 18:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Guidelines

I think we need to make this page a) shorter and b) more clear

I think to make the page shorter and smaller we could put the historic flags on a separate page or get rid of them, as for making it more clear I there should be some guidelines about what should be on here. I think it should be:

1. Flags of Organizations
2. Flags of All Nations
3. Flags of other important entities
4. No proposed flags or Ensigns, only official national flags (with a possible exception of Northern Ireland - See Above)
5. New introduction paragraph detailing what the page is (a directory/reference list) and what should go on it as per these guidelines

Notes:

• Number 2 should be followed within reason - eg. No Microstates
• Number 3 should include oversees territories, Antarctic claims, autonomous regions and/or constituent provinces as well as US States. This would mean keeping the states and provinces for the USA, Canada, UK and Ireland and Islands within Island groups (eg. French Polynesia and Netherlands Antiles) but removing UK counties for example
• Number 3 would involve removing the proposed flags of New Zealand

I think these are a reasonable set of guidelines regarding content and I think as soon as their is a general agreement we can implement it. Feel free to comment or propose changes...

As for Northern Ireland I think we need to make an agreement, while it is true the only flag officially used to represent NI is the Union Jack I think there is no point having it twice in the same section, I personally think that it is fine as it is but I really want to get over all this fighting by reaching a compromise (There is a notice saying the Ulster Banner is unofficial and a link to the flag dispute page) but since the Ulster banner is used most even at official occasions such as the Commonwealth games I don't see how we can compromise and have both parties happy... Highfields (talk) (contribs) 17:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner was never the flag of Northern Ireland, its sole usage between 1953-72 was as a governmental banner for the former Government of Northern Ireland which was suspended in 1972 and abolished in 1973, it never had any civic status, and the Union Flag has always been the official Northern Ireland flag, so although it is used today by some sports when N Ireland compete internationally such the Commonwealth games its not a unofficial flag as it was never official to begin with as a flag of Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 18:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What Padraig says is quite true—but it is also quite irrelevant for the purpose of this page. It is not in the main article space, so we don't need references and/or elaborate explanatory prose text. It is a WikiProject page, nothing more.

Having said that, I repeat my rhetorical question from a few months ago: what exactly are we trying to do here? I don't think we need to apply any overly restrictive guidelines. For example, List of countries is well-maintained, and uses flag icons for each entry, so we don't need to duplicate that sort of list by imposing restrictions on what is a nation and what is not, for example.

I think the current layout is close to what I think the page should be. Since it purports to be part of WP:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology, it ought to serve as a directory of articles and images within the scope of that project. Perhaps the "rule" is that any article that has a "Flag of x" article written ought to be listed here. It can be as simple as that. That means that we might want to add entries for things like Flag of Chicago. Or, perhaps we simply provide the wikilink to Category:Flags of places in the United States. In any case, I think that's the way this discussion ought to proceed — what is the most effective directory page for this WikiProject?

Oh, and in Northern Ireland's case, I think the current arrangement is perfectly appropriate for this directory. It shows the image, and three links to relevant articles that tell the whole story about the flag. Note that I also believe that the Ulster banner image should not be used in the main article space to identify Northern Ireland except for a few special cases. I do not think these two views are contradictory. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

All the same I think we still need to think about moving or deleting Historic flags as they don't really serve as part of this 'directory' and there is still the question raised initially here about what does and doesn't count, specifically ensigns that are not flags, proposed flags and small entities that just clog the page up... Highfields (talk) (contribs) 16:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

ps. I think I might start to take some action on state ensigns and proposed flags - Highfields (talk) (contribs) 16:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Issue

For about the 15th time I'm going to try to make a deal, as you can see below NI shall be permenantly excempt from the rules until an agreement is made, When I wrote this page I simply typed: {{flag|Northern Ireland}} which gives 'Northern Ireland', I therefore think while ever wikipedia, in the form of this template, recognises the Ulster Banner as the flag of NI this page will too.

Exemptions

• Northern Ireland shall be exempt from rule number 3 and will be kept as the Ulster Banner until further notice or until a deal is made

Fair use rationale for Image:Unrwa.gif

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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)