Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Featured Topic Drive/Archive 1

Optional trophy pages

Should we work on the O'Brien Trophy, NHL Plus/Minus Award, Roger Crozier Saving Grace Award, NHL/Sheraton Road Performer Award, Mark Messier Leadership Award or not include them as part of the topic?

My rationale for not including them is that they are not listed here and they are not presented or mentioned in any way at the NHL Awards. I'm not even sure if there is a physical trophy for the latter four. As well, the later three likely would not reach FL status due to being so short, but I think it is excuseable when it comes to FTs. Thoughts/opinions? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely the O'Brien Trophy, as that was the original award for the NHL's league champion. The rest I think could be considered optional, but if we can get them up to snuff as well, that would make this project that much more complete. Resolute —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 00:25:31, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

I changed the format of the table in the Mark Messier Leadership Award article. --Krm500 01:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Near as I can tell, the NHL Plus/Minus Award is no longer even recognized by the NHL. I can't find any reliable links that go past 2004, and even tsn.ca simply lists Thomas Vanek as being just the "plus/minus leader" rather than being an award winner, as tsn denotes past winners as being. Does anyone have an NHL guide handy that could confirm if this award is still active? Resolute 02:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Art Ross Trophy

The NHL lists Odie Cleghorn the Scoring leader of the 1918-19 season, but Legends of Hockey and our own 1918-19 NHL season article list Newsy Lalonde. It's obvious that Lalonde is the scoring leader, but I hope that the mistake on nhl.com doesn't bring us any problems. I'll have to reference the list of winners of the Legends of Hockey. I'd prefer to reference the list of winners of the nhl.com site... Bah--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 10:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Both players tied with 23 goals according to hockeydb, and I may be incorrect, but I don't think the NHL officially counted assists their first couple seasons. That might account for it. Resolute 14:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Art Ross is about points, not goals, so they aren't tied. Right?--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 20:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By today's rules, yes. The Art Ross Trophy did not exist in 1919, so the inclusion of scoring leaders is simply for completeness of history only. I know that in 1917-18, the NHL did not track assists. That may also have been the case in 1918-19, which if so, the scoring leaders would have been Cleghorn and Lalonde in a tie. If not, then nhl.com is incorrect. Most likely the latter is the case. Resolute 01:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so... Let me see: Legends of Hockey list Lalonde as the leader in 1918-19, because, according to them, "This was the first season that the NHL recognized an assist as a point, the previous season points were only awarded for goals. 1918-19 saw NEWSEY LALONDE take the scoring title with 30 points, but had the points been awarded the same as the previous season Odie Cleghorn would have taken the title as he led the NHL with 23 goals.". But, according to themselves as well and the NHL, Lalonde scored 22 goals and 10 assists (32 points, not 30). Cleghorn scored 22 goals and 6 assists (28 points). So, if the NHL started counting assists as points in 1918-19 as Legends of Hockey says, no doubt Lalonde is the scoring leader. Even if they did not, it's a tie. But never a win by Cleghorn alone. So, it's probably a mistake on the NHL site, but they have been listing it like that for many years. And I'm not sure what to do, because, supposedly, in a Wikipedia article, no other reference should be more reliable than the NHL itself. What should be said in the article about this? And what should be listed in that season and in the previous: the goals or the points? Or what about eliminating that section? If anyone here has one of those NHL Official Record Books that can lend a hand here, I'd be thankful.--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 19:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do. Maxim_(talk) 19:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, out of the way, I'M a statistician! All jokes(?) aside, I have here from two (yes, 2!) different sources, the 2006 NHL Official Guide & Record book AND Total Hockey that Newsy Lalonde won the scoring title with 22 goals and 32 points, and Odie Cleghorn scored 22 goals and only 28 points. The fact that assists were first recorded that season are wrong, that was the first season where they were considered as points as Serte alluded to, however NHL records now seem to indicate that they are now considered points in 1917-18. If you require reference info for the article, just let me know what info for the Official Guide & Record book you need and I'll be happy to provide it. Croat Canuck Say hello or just talk 19:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what is says: (2004 edition, p. 141, full info in Maurice Richard trophy section:

Leading scorers
Player           Club      GP  G  A  PTS  PIM 
Lalonde, Newsy   Montreal  17  22 10 32   40
Cleghorn, Odie   Montreal  17  22 6  28   22
Nighbor, Frank   Ottawa    18  19 9  28   27

I hope this helps. Maxim_(talk) 19:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help to all of you. I inserted references about this issue, hope it's easy to understand. Anyway, if those books list the total number of points of the Art Ross winners in a table and it's easy to check, I'd be glad if someone checked it for me, since I can't find a page on nhl nor legends of hockey that lists the winners and the points they scored. I just used the data that was already on the article, and it's probably correct, but just to be safe. Other than that, suggestions accepted, otherwise FLC.--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 10:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stanley Cup or List of Stanley Cup champions

This is one issue that could prove to be a thorn. The Stanley Cup page, while a good article, is VERY different from the rest in that it is more of a traditional article rather than a list and the cup has a long and complex history that requires a basic article and list page.

One of the FT recommendations (not requirements) is that the "structure of the articles should be similar, having the same section titles and order where possible", and since every article is a list except the Stanley Cup, perhaps it would be best to also improve List of Stanley Cup champions and then both could be used if needed. Thoughts? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me, the Stanley Cup article is already A-class, better to focus on getting the list up to FL status. --Krm500 22:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Krm500, Stanley Cup falls under the FA system, while the list is under something like List of Stanley Cup champions. But that's not all; there's a few more sub-articles as well. I know it, as it was the first article I ever extensively worked on :D 03:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maxim (talk • contribs).

I know, what I said was the the SC article is already A-class (very good, almost FA), better to focus on getting the list (List of Stanley Cup champions) up to FL status. :) --Krm500 10:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

National Hockey League awards

This article is pretty much complete. Anyone who wants to look over the lead section for errors and better wording is most appropriate. I also need to find a quality reliable source for the NHL/Sheraton Road Performer Award. Any suggestions? Reso lute 02:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at this, we see two mentions of it in nhl.com. One is about Joe Sakic winning in 2004 and the other is a mention of the scoring race to the award in November 2005, which would be awared in 2006. But hockeydb only mentions 2004. And including team's nhl.com sites, only mention of it is Joe Sakic and a runner up. Not sure what you should do. Maybe contact the nhl, is that possible?--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 11:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't there a member of the project that was a freelance writer? Maybe he knows how to get the information? --Krm500 11:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's User:Gmatsuda--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 12:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maurice 'Rocket' Richard Trophy

I knew I'd regret taking this one. NHL.com calls it the "Maurice Richard Trophy" whereas LegendsofHockey.net calls it "Maurice 'Rocket' Richard Trophy", so which should it be? I did a google search of NHL.com, there are 48 pages that call it the "Maurice 'Rocket' Richard Trophy" and 57 that call it the "Maurice Richard Trophy". -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update I just looked at this image and according to the inscription, it is the "Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy", so I guess that's what we should stick with. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As well, does anyone know of a source that lists leading goal scorers prior to the Trophies introduction? I can't find any at NHL.com, LegendsofHockey.net or Hockeydb.com. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do, but it's a book. Do you need a general source, or for what exactly, because I can reasonably help you, even though I've already I'm in the middle of two commitments. Maxim_(talk) 18:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's already there, I just need a source. However, because the pre-trophy winners aren't included at NHL or LOH, I'm inclined to just leave them out. NHL lists the pre-Art Ross scoring leaders, which makes things a lot easier in that case. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the source:

Ralph Dinger (ed.). National Hockey League Official Guide & Record Book (2004 ed.). Toront: Dan Diamond. ISBN 0-920445-84-5. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

Which as much info as I can provide. Maxim_(talk) 18:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Goin' away

I'm going away again. Starting tomorrow, I'll be gone until Wednesday (I think), so could somebody please keep an eye on my FLs? Even if they get opposition, they'll likely still be going when I get back, so it's not that big of a deal, but the sooner they pass, the better, so we can get some new pages nominated. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 23:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. It's not a big problem. Maxim_(talk) 23:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maurice 'Rocket' Richard Trophy again

It looks like it will fail its FLC due to being too short. This isn't necessarily a bad thing because an article that isn't featured can be excused in an FT if it is judged to have insufficient content to become featured. However, there is another option. I could readd all of the pre-Trophy goal scoring leaders. However, I am against this because the NHL.com list only shows the winners of the actual trophy. Thoughts? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Should they be included or not: The optional ones, Lester Patrick Trophy and List of Stanley Cup champions

It's time to decide about the optional trophies. If they are considered NHL awards, then they should be included, even if NHL.com doesn't list them. The only one which could make FL status is the +/- award, but the other three can be excusable in a FT if there isn't enough content for them to be promoted.

As for the Lester Patrick trophy, NHL.com lists it as one of their awards, but if it isn't considered an actual NHL award, then it shouldn't be included.

As for the List of Stanley Cup champions, this is NHL trophies, and while it would be nice to include it for completion, I don't think it would be necessary for a trophies FT, same as the anecdotes trophy.

So, any opinions on these are more than welcome. We are very close, we just have a few more to work on. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 03:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to its article, the Lester Patrick Trophy is not an NHL award, though it is presented, in part, by the NHL. If this is accurate, then I would suggest it falls outside the scope of this topic. Ditto List of Stanley Cup champions. The article on the award is Stanley Cup. That list is a child article that deals with the teams itself, rather than the award. Though it would be a good one to get to FL status on its own. IMO, of course. Reso lute 03:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maxim and I were talking about a Stanley Cup FT which would include just the Cup, the anecdotes article and the list of champions. What about the optional ones (+/1, Road performer, leadership and Saving Grace awards)? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 03:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Road performer has zero reliable sources to suggest it was ever awarded after 2004. I even removed it from NHL Awards because of the lack of sources. The Messier award could never become a FL at this point, so isn't an issue. The other two have been around for some time, and are listed. Dunno about those ones. I'd probably put them in a "would be nice" category myself. Reso lute 03:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some can be give A Class status; I'm doing that for the Mark Messier Trophy. Maxim_(talk) 20:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I'm getting some copyediting done on Stanley Cup for a possible FAC. Maxim_(talk) 20:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since there are no objections, I'm going to move the optional ones to the "needs work" section and remove the list of Cup Winners and Lester Patrick Trophy. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The FTC...

It's about time to do so. I think now will be a great time to nominate for FTC, as all of the 3 outstanding FLC's and and two articles (currently my responsibility to raise to FL/A class) are almost ready; the FLC, I feel, need more numbers of days and supp ports, and I don't expect any major bumps in the road. What's your take on it? Maxim_(talk) 19:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be best to wait until everything passes, but we could do so now if that's what everyone wants. Although, I think the +/- award has enough out there that it COULD make FL status, so it wouldn't hurt to wait until it's an FLC before we start. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work on +/- a bit more... The list is ready, the prose, lead, and history needs very major work. Also, Stanley Cup is bound for an FAC soon, the last FLC failed miserably over quality of writing concerns, and User:Awadewit has been doing a massive copyedit. The prose in some places is so bad that she has no clue what's going on! Maxim_(talk) 20:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and from about 6:30 to 7:00 on till 10:00, I'll be partially or fully unavailable... So will you, Scorpion, I presume? :D Maxim_(talk) 20:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nominating FTCs is a pain in the ass, but I'll do it. Although, it will be inactive for at least 10 days until every FLC passes. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now, or when I submit the FLC for +/-? Maxim_(talk) 20:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The last FTC I was involved in was nominated prematurely by an editor who didn't wait for the main page to even be completed. It took a while for its FLC too pass, so the overall FTC was inactive for about 20 days. It just seems a little premature to be starting one before all of the pages are ready. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FTC nomination

Okay, barring any objections, I think I'll nominate it tonight, as the +/- FLC is several days old, and we could use some comments. I'm afraid that the damn Road Performer award may hurt us, but I have scoured NHL.com and I can't find any refs for it past early 2006, and from what I can tell, it was only officially awarded during one season. So, I don't think it really counts for inclusion here, but we'll see what others think. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC) :Objection, your honor. :D I have a few concerns with this. Firstly, I want to do some copyediting on every article, and have outsiders look at it. (See my userpage). Secondly, I'm planning to nominate Stanley Cup for an FAC when User:Awadewit and I have finished copyediting it as well. I'd prefer a few more days to work on everything. Thanks, Maxim_{(talk) (contributions)} 20:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC) [reply]

I think it's ready for an FTC. The previous comment was premature and rushed. --Maxim_{(talk) (contributions)} 22:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New award?

I just found out about this new award, after reading on Joe Sakic winning it. It's the NHL Foundation PLayer Award and it has been awarded since 1998. It "recognizes an NHL player who applies the core values of hockey – commitment, perseverance and teamwork – to enrich the lives of people in his community". Should this be included?--Serte ^{[ Talk · Contrib ]} 23:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the NHL has several awards like this that aren't acknowledged in their trophy section - which is why I was a little nervous about including the +/-, Messier and Crozier trophies. A google search [1] reveals over a hundred articles that mention the trophy, so I guess we don't really have a choice. I'll start work on a page for it. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 23:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definite must. I'll try to write or help on it as well. Also, we might get it featured on DYK. --Maxim_{(talk) (contributions)} 23:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mission accomplished! Now what?

Mission accomplished! So, what do we work on next? There was talk of a Stanley Cup FT that would involve the mean article, the anecdotes and the list of champions. Any other ideas? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]