Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey

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WikiProject Ice Hockey (Rated NA-class)
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[edit]

My image editing and uploading skills are limited and a request has been made to update the Chicago Wolves logo from its 2006 version found at File:Chicago_Wolves_Logo.svg to the more detailed one they currently use. Any one like to oblige with a new .svg file? Yosemiter (talk) 12:20, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Green tickY Done. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism on Kevin Shattenkirk[edit]

I have protected the page but it looks like this article has been the object of some heavy vandalism. It may need someone with knowledge of the subject to clean it up. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:14, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Capitals–Penguins rivalry[edit]

The current name of the article is wrong and is against MOS:CAPS. However, I can not move it for some reason and I proposed that Capitals–Penguins Rivalry would be moved to Capitals–Penguins rivalry, and started a discussion here. Please give your input. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:07, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Golden Knights' practice facility[edit]

There is currently a conversation on Talk:Vegas Golden Knights#Vegas Golden Knights practice facility about its inclusion and its notability to the history of the team. Same user keeps adding a general statement then it gets removed. I was the third editor to remove it and have probably hit my 3RR with it. Looking for another editor or two to intervene, incorporate it better (such as in the Team info section that also need some clean up), or comment on the discussion. On similar note, does City National Arena meet WP:GNG? Yosemiter (talk) 21:51, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

So here we go again. Damn it.[edit]

When drafting the original NHOCKEY criteria, I'd expected a great deal more common sense on the part of editors than has proven to be the case. I didn't want to spell out a list of leagues, because after all leagues change, and I didn't want to tweak the criteria any more than had to happen. Unfortunately, I completely misjudged the degree to which some editors would go to distort or mislead about the criteria, and we've had to tweak anyway over the years. In some recent deletion discussions (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taylan Anlar, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Gunn (ice hockey)) the nonsense just keeps on rolling. I would, therefore, like to propose the following changes to NHOCKEY and see if we can put this to bed:

  1. Played one or more games in the National Hockey League, Czech Extraliga, Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League or the Swedish Hockey League;
  2. Played at least 200 games (90 games for a goaltender) or achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star) in the Mestis, Deutsche Eishockey Liga, Slovak Extraliga, HockeyAllsvenskan or the American Hockey League;
  3. Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer or First Team All-Star) in the Eishockey Liga, Belarusian Extraleague, 2nd Bundesliga, GET-ligaen, Elite Ice Hockey League, Ontario Hockey League, Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, Western Hockey League or the Beneliga;
  4. Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer or First or Second Team All-American) in the men's play versions of the Atlantic Hockey, Big Ten Conference, ECAC Hockey, Hockey East, National Collegiate Hockey Conference, Western Collegiate Hockey Association;

Criteria #5 and #6 are unchanged. At the end, the following should be added: "For defunct leagues considered to satisfy any of the criteria above, please see the ice hockey league assessment maintained by the Ice Hockey WikiProject. No league not mentioned meets any of the criteria." Obviously NHOCKEY/LA should be changed to suit.

It's a pain in the ass, I know, but it seems there'll always be editors who can't be reached any other way. Ravenswing 12:25, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

  • I would change #4 to "(all-time top ten career scorer or First or Second Team All-American) in men's ice hockey as NCAA Division I". It reads right now as if a top-10 career scorer in the Big 10 would satisfy the criteria (and I am not sure that is correct as it has only been around since 2013) or that an all-conference selection could be misinterpreted. Otherwise this is probably fine (except that maybe add the ECHL to #3). I think we are always going to have problems with people interpreting anything, especially against more popular sports criteria like NFOOTY where being in top league in a country probably does count. As with any list, editors will likely complain "that the list it is incomplete" no matter how it is written because WP:THEYDONTLIKEIT. A lot of folks also seem dislike the fact that any appendix to the SNG is an "essay" and that could still cause them to disagree with it. Yosemiter (talk) 14:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
      • I am not fully in agreement with the status of some of the european leagues, however I really don't care...I would rather editors provide a history of GNG passes first anyway. It appears simplified, or over simplified wording, is the only way to prevent abject foolishness or blatant disregard for GNG. I would like to see the 200 games threshold maintained particularly for german and swiss leagues where the expectation is for average attendance in the 6k range per game. I mean that if these leagues consistently outdraw the swedish, finnish, and czech leagues, it is likely the players receive significant attention as well.18abruce (talk) 14:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I am not in agreement because I don't think we can drop the accounting for historical players, the whole purpose of NSPORTS is to protect those players who likely have/had sources but are pre-internet. I realize you have a throw away line at the bottom to try and cover that, but I think it needs to be front and centre in the criteria. If its a choice between this proposal and what we have now I think what we have now is better, people are always going to try and argue around it. We can't keep changing it, just have better arguments against those people in AfD discussions. Only thing that I do think we should adopt from this proposal is the brackets about goaltenders and 90 games. -DJSasso (talk) 15:31, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
    • That's easily handled by specifying qualifying leagues in NHockey/LA. Resolute 00:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
      • That is my point, that is how he plans to handle it above. I don't think it should be, because NHockey/LA is just an essay. I think it needs to be right in the guideline. We already see arguments at Rfd that nhockey/la carries no weight. This would only make those stronger. -DJSasso (talk) 00:59, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
      • Thinking about it some more this morning, all I think that needs to happen is have #2 spell out better that it means leagues that pre-date professional and maybe even give a year. And then call out the communist leagues specifically either in the same point or in another bullet. -DJSasso (talk) 11:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
        • I've no objection to that. Something along the lines of "Played one or more games in either a top level Canadian amateur league before 1909," that being the date the ECHA folded, "the Soviet Championship League or the Czechoslovak First Ice Hockey League." Ravenswing 17:01, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
  • After seeing some of the comments referring to existing criteria 1 and 2, it could be improved by being more explicit with the phrasing while still keeping the NHOCKEY/LA. #1 could be Played one or more games in one of the existing or defunct top professional leagues in the world; #2 could be Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of access to a top professional league, the highest level of competition extant; (changes in Bold) Yosemiter (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Oh yes I like that wording, it fixes both. -DJSasso (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
    • That is good wording, but the reason I think we need to put the leagues explicitly in the criteria is that nothing else is going to deter the cementheads who'll claim that (say) the Australian league is one of the Best In The World. NHOCKEY/LA is a tool, after all, and it's less important to preserve that than to secure NHOCKEY itself. Ravenswing 17:01, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Would anyone be opposed to my proposed phrasing here? Or at least until we settle on whether or not to explicitly list all leagues in NHOCKEY itself? Seems like numbers one and two are still creating some issues for those reviewing all the current Turkish nominations. Yosemiter (talk) 16:33, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
      • I went ahead and made the small changes because I am tired of this and this. Yosemiter (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Alright. We're seeing AfD after AfD where outside editors are coming in, looking at the revised Criterion #2, and just not caring as to what we claim it's supposed to mean. So I'd like to go back to my original proposal, changing it Criterion #1 as such:

    # Played one or more games in the National Hockey League, Czech Extraliga, Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League or the Swedish Hockey League, a top level Canadian amateur league prior to 1909, the Soviet Championship League, the Czechoslovak First Ice Hockey League or the World Hockey Association;

    Could I have a thumbs-up or thumbs-down on this? There just is no other way around it: we need to spell out these leagues. We have several years worth of proof that nothing else will get through to the cementheads. Ravenswing 19:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

    • Agreed, it seems to cover #1 and #2 well enough. Some of these Turkish player AfDs are a bit ridiculous. Yosemiter (talk) 19:11, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    • In agreement. GoodDay (talk) 19:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)