Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Navboxes

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WikiProject Ice Hockey (Rated NA-class)
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NOTE concurrent discussion at WP talk:FLAG

According to WP:FLAG flags shouldn't be used unnecessarily and they should "help the user not decorate". Because of that I removed the flag from the {{British ice hockey}} navbox before noticing that flags had been added to other league navboxes. Djsasso returned it stating "helps the user understand the template is related to britain". Would that be above and beyond the word "British" then? ;) If the title of the navbox doesn't include the country's name then I could see the argument for including them. However, if the title of the navbox does include the country's name then I don't think we should include a flag as I believe that's purely decorative.

Another problem which may occur is on leagues which are cross-border. For example the navbox for the Irish Ice Hockey League, {{IIHL}}, shows the flag of the Republic of Ireland while the league contains a team from Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom and has it's own flag: Northern Ireland.

Of course I'm open to argument and will go with the consensus. -- JD554 (talk) 08:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

To me, flags help the navigation of a list. This is about a box, and with only one flag it might not be helpful in the same way. Since I am European, I easily recognize the nationality of the leagues whose boxes are named "Russian", "Czech", "Austrian" and even "Deutsche". The other ones have familiar traits too, but that is probably because I'm from Northen Europe. "Nationalliga" is probably the least familiar case, unless viewed next to the other German-speaking leagues (Austrian, Deutsche).
I have much more trouble with leagues in North America (besides NHL of course, that one is clearly Canada plus USA). Unless they are named "America" something och "Canada" something, I would have to resort to sub-national geography like "Ontario" and "Saskatchewan". That might work for some leagues, but it requires some extra concentration or even info-browsing. Still, there are leagues named "Western", "Central", "East" and so on. I have no idea in which direction I should travel to find those, besides the North America clue.
On the other hand, by putting flags on sub-national leagues might make them look nation-wide even when they are not. I don't know what to do with those. There are sub-national divisions below the two Swedish leagues too, but on the Swedish language Wikipedia they share the same huge template and probably keep the flag thereby. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 14:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Remember that WP:FLAG is a guideline not a policy. Having the flag helps the readers understand quicker than just the word. This case is no different than the millions of infoboxes we already use that have flags next to the nationality of the player. Those aren't considered decoration so why would this be any different. Secondly I believe he was just adding them to national nav boxes and not league nav boxes. -Djsasso (talk) 15:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes I know it's only a guideline, which I why I started this discussion to try to get a consensus. I'm not sure how a flag helps identify a country easier than its name, afterall this is the English wikipedia. Also, how many people know that Latvia is the Latvian flag? Not many I'd guess. For the record, I don't have an issue with flags being used on navboxes such as {{SM-liiga}} where the title of the navbox is simly "SM-liiga" — a flag obviously helps in those cases. The Irish one I mentioned above is not simply a national league, it's an international league as there are teams in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland but only the Republic of Ireland's flag is shown. -- JD554 (talk) 16:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Didn't realize he was adding it on every league box, just on the national ones like {{British ice hockey}}. Personally I prefer to see it even in your Ireland example. The league is primarily Irish even if it does have a team in Northen Ireland. If it were more like the NHL where a greater percentage were in both countries then it would be different. --Djsasso (talk) 16:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind the flags, and in case of SM-liiga it makes much sense to use a flag. But one thing that came to my mind; Why does SM-liiga use it's native name while Elitserien's navbox say Swedish Elite League? --Krm500 (talk) 16:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah we should probably change that to Elitserien. --Djsasso (talk) 16:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Northern Ireland has no flag (other then the Union Jack), the Ulster Banner usage as NI's flag, ended in 1973. There's been alot of disputing over this at List of British flags. -- GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The point was though that we are using the Ireland flag for the league when the league has one team in Northern Ireland. --Djsasso (talk) 22:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Both flags should be used, the Irish & the UK flags. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, that's not the case on 'sports' articles (my mistake). Anyways, glad to see those flags being removed from the NHL team infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 22:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Clearly having Irish flag for a UK team and a UK flag for a team which as banned flags is flags for the sake of flags and its against WP:Flags Gnevin (talk) 20:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Flags for the sake of Flags, is when there is no purpose to having the flag. However, in these cases the flags are helping to distinguish the country the league is in, which serves a purpose and is not a violation of WP:FLAGS. -Djsasso (talk) 20:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
There are several leagues which involve teams from more than one country, however the league itself is only identified with one country. Flibirigit (talk) 21:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Flags#Help_the_reader_rather_than_decorate and Flags#Overbroad_use_of_flags_with_politicized_connotations both apply.
While flag icons and similar images can be useful in Wikipedia articles in some circumstances, there are also problems associated with their misapplication and overuse. Words are clearer. Clearly the word Ireland distinguishes just fine without the need for flag,Tell me this what do these flags add in terms of information that worlds don't Gnevin (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Except that the word Ireland isn't in the title of this template, nor should it be since its not part of the name of the league. -Djsasso (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Irish Ice Hockey League problem solved, plus the word Irish in the title maybe a giveaway . Gnevin (talk) 21:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Except Irish is ambiguous and could refer to two different sets of people, Northern Irish or Irish. -Djsasso (talk) 22:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Are you saying that the ROI tricolour is less ambiguous than a link to the island of Ireland which Irish is used by both sides see Irish_Football_Association and their leagues. Still no case being made for the flags Gnevin (talk) 22:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, because the standard is to link by the League name and not by the piece of land that the league is on, so using Ireland Ice Hockey League would not be approrpriate. -Djsasso (talk) 22:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
That would be Irish Ice Hockey League, and sure [[[Irish Ice Hockey League]] is fine as it has the location in the name see .{{Guinness_Premiership}} ,{{Celtic league}}, {{Top 14}} works fine with out flags or a location name . Gnevin (talk) 22:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
In this case, the "Irish" refers to the league being based in the [[Republic of Ireland], rather than the island of Ireland itself. Flibirigit (talk) 21:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Does it ? It appears to be an All-Ireland League Gnevin (talk) 21:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
"Ireland smaller.svg Irish Ice Hockey League" as on {{Football Ireland}} and "Flag of Ireland.svg Flag of Northern Ireland.svg Irish Ice Hockey League" as on {{Asia League Ice Hockey}} would look logical to me. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 22:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah I like the second option. -Djsasso (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Using the Ulster Banner on Republic of Ireland related articles are you lot mad? Why do you have to have flags so badly ,also {{Asia League Ice Hockey}} looks terrible , is that the flag of the USSR at the end?Gnevin (talk) 22:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
China. -Djsasso (talk) 22:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
As long as the flag is displayed using {{Flagicon}} it will show a popup/hover explanation by pointing at it. The Ulster Banner and the ROI flag are both used in sports articles, for example Northern Ireland Trophy 2007. Can the UB not be used on ROI-related articles while the ROI flag is fine to use on NI-related articles? Is that the issue? --Bamsefar75 (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You are losing focus on the fact that the IIHL has strong ties to the Republic of Ireland, not the Island of Ireland. The Irish Ice Hockey League was founded in the Republic of Ireland. The IIHA and the IIHL have strong historical ties to the Republic of Ireland. The Belfast team has only existed for one year of the long history of the IIHL and the IIHA. such a small blip on the timeline of the league's history does not make a strong bond nor make the league identifiable with Northen Ireland. The use of the Flag of the Republic of Ireland is appropriate. The is similar to the Austrian Hockey League having a long history in Austria, and recently adding teams in Hungary and Slovenia, the league is clearly identified with Austria. Flibirigit (talk) 22:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Asia League Ice Hockey has three flags, as it is not identified with one country alone. It is associated with Japan, South Korea and China. Its predecessor league however, was strongly associated with Japan. Flibirigit (talk) 22:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I was just about to add that the second option would also mean we should change {{Austrian Hockey League}} to include Slovenia and Hungary, and maybe that league is open to teams from even more countries (seems the Hungarian team was recently relegated, if I'm not mistaken). I'm not sure which european leagues are open to other countries and which are closed. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 23:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Your all losing focus of the fact that this problem is easily solved by removing the flags and just using the official league name , if the league is called the Austrian Hockey League and includes teams from other countries well its to the league to change the name , All I hear is keep flag with no reason why these should be , with strange ideas being thrown out , and mutli-flagged templates that look ridiculous all for the sake of decorating.Once again {{Guinness_Premiership}} ,{{Celtic league}}, {{Top 14}} work fine with out flags. This Guideline need to be followed Gnevin (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just follow the WP:GOODFAITH guideline since the templates were created in this fashion. Actually, I dont mind if all the league templates had their flags removed (but I wont be doing it myself). Maybe flags could be added to this Navboxes guide instead (or not, making it slower to read, but perhaps faster to load). They might serve a purpose here, since it is a long list of templates. I think removing just the flags where their meaning dont exactly match the league (Irish, Austrian) would probably lead to them being added by someone else (in good faith) soon again just because they seem to be missing out. The leagues that have a strange name could use some clarification in the title, like the name(s) of the country they correspond to - if it is clear they do. That can be added to most of the league navboxes. The Irish and Austrian leagues will probably be exceptions, but their titles seem obvious, so they would not need it. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey/Navboxes how come all the others work with out flags , yet 20 must have flags?Gnevin (talk) 15:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure they work. A reader somewhat unfamiliar with geography could ask, In which part of Britain do we find the British Columbia Hockey League? --Bamsefar75 (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
And said user clicks the link and see awe BC is a part of Canada i didn't know that ,i'll open the BC article in a new tab and before you say it adding the flag wouldn't help as the same user could say what flag it that Gnevin (talk) 19:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
User says, wonder what flag that is, and then moves the mousepointer to it, and is informed without needing to open a second article. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 22:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
User says BC never heard of that a clicks link getting a wealth of info , we are really getting off topic here .The way i see it the best option is to remove flags from [Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Navboxes|Navboxes guide]] failing that just remove the ones which have more than 1 flag or cover more than one country Gnevin (talk) 00:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The way I see it, status quo is currently the best option. -Djsasso (talk) 16:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
status quo of ignoring a official guild line and ridiculous and controversial flag usage all for the sake of look at the pretty flags?Gnevin (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Again its your pov that its only to look at the pretty flags. I think it provides alot of use being there. -Djsasso (talk) 16:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Owe i give up , if you cant see that the these flags here are ridiculous(ie 3 flags on one box) and controversial(ie Irish flag on NI team) flag then enjoy your pretty flags, i suggest you join WP:HV Gnevin (talk) 16:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gnevin. Flag use has show itself to be very controversial and problematic in wikipedia and the benefit are very small. I myself also think it looks unprofessional and ugly. If the only benefit is that it is easier to identify the country that the template relates to, that is not very big. A reader will probably find this information in the article and if not he can click on a link to find more details. I don't see good enough reason too go against WP:FLAG here. Rettetast (talk) 22:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)