Talk:Aja (song)

Studio

Boulevard Recording in Los Angeles also claims to have recorded Aja, at least "most of the basic tracks". [1] The location of the studio at that time is now the Museum of Death on Hollywood Boulevard. — Brianhe (talk) 03:26, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Were they under a different name at that time? The album credits mention a bunch of different LA studios by name, but not that one. Daniel Case (talk) 05:05, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it was Producers Workshop, then Westbeach Recorders. Though I think it was more than just a name change, actually different companies at the same Hollywood Boulevard location. Some more background at Talk:Museum of Death#Recording studio. — Brianhe (talk) 05:29, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

About the GA nomination

Although a first-time editor nominated this and added a note about possibly not being available to make the necessary fixes, Daniel Case tried to edit the GAN page to say "as the primary contributor to the article I would be happy to work with any reviewer". However, the bot regenerated the page, and the comment was lost. I've quoted the comment here so it isn't lost, and have removed Copperongold's note, since the nomination will be covered during any review. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Aja (song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Calvin999 (talk · contribs) 08:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Language English → Not needed.
• "Aja" is the title track of Steely Dan's 1977 album by that name. → "Aja" is a song by American rock band Steely Dan from their sixth album of the same name (1977).
• Like the other six songs on the album, → Irrelevant
• it is in the jazz rock genre, → it is a jazz rock song
• though it is regarded as tending strongly towards the former. → So, a jazz song with rock influences?
• Musically, it is a tonally sophisticated and structurally complex work that was praised on its release as the most ambitious song the duo had ever attempted. → This is only attributed to one source, as some parts of the source don't quite match this sentence. I think it is being interpreted a little bit.
• Why is so complex? What makes it complex?
• escape the stresses of his life "up on the hill." → Are these lyrics?
• Supposedly it was inspired by a relative of someone Fagen knew, → This clause is structured wrong, but it also reads fans written.
• "tranquility that can come of a quiet relationship with a beautiful woman."[3] → Quotes are generally discouraged from being used in the lead.
• and unlike many of the other tracks on the album, → There's only six, according to the first paragraph, so this reads a bit odd.
• Both combined for solos → I don't understand this.
• Gadd continued his, the first drum solo in a Steely Dan song,[5] in the song's tag, all recorded in just two takes. → This is really jumbled up.
• It has been a favorite of the band's fans,[8] → If this is in the main body, then it doesn't need a citation here.
• You don't mention the producer in the lead.
• The whole lead is a bit messy. It needs rewriting.
• A lot of the first paragraph of the Background section is not relevant. This song is from their sixth album, so we don't need info from 6 years previous as to before they formed. That is needed on the first, and perhaps second, album only. But this is a song article, so it's not needed even more so.
• You would add The Village Recorder to the parameter for Recorded in the info box.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:34, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

• Gary Katz produced, → Gary Katz produced the song,

Reworded. Daniel Case (talk) 05:34, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

• Words such as 'Ultimately', 'Eventually', 'Supposedly' read really fan-written and you shouldn't use them.
• Drum solo section opens with a quote to no prior explanation of what its significance is or who is meant to have said it.
• Avoid one line paragraphs like in Reception and Samples.
• There's an awful lot of content in the Recording and Composition sections. They are very detailed and very big. These could easily be condensed and streamlined.
• You say its a fan favourite in the Legacy section but I can't see anything that supports that.
• WhoSampled is not a reliable source. I checked at RSN and it was confirmed as such.
• There are am incredible amount of quotes in this article. Some need to be paraphrased into your own words for sure.

Outcome

I'm sorry but I'm failing this article. I can see you've put a lot of time into this article, but I don't think it meets Good Article criteria. If I felt that the issues should be done within seven days, I would have placed on hold. But I think that many sections need completely rearranging and rewriting. And for that, i suggest nominating the article for a Peer Review or asking for it to be thoroughly copyedited by a member of the GOCE.  — Calvin999 17:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Responses to GA review

Since I wasn't given the opportunity to respond to these insights before Calvin999 failed the article (Why go into specifics if you don't think the article can be improved in time?), I've reposted them in a separate section with my responses:

• Language English → Not needed.

Someone else seems to have fixed this. Daniel Case (talk) 22:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• "Aja" is the title track of Steely Dan's 1977 album by that name. → "Aja" is a song by American rock band Steely Dan from their sixth album of the same name (1977).

As already noted in the corrections, the suggested language, while it did include more information, was awkward. I have since come up with better language than the reviewer suggested.

• Like the other six songs on the album, → Irrelevant

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• it is in the jazz rock genre, → it is a jazz rock song

Combined with the lede sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• though it is regarded as tending strongly towards the former. → So, a jazz song with rock influences?

Vagueness here reflects the sources. I would personally describe it as a composition with the structure of a rock song but having a jazz-influenced chord progression and instrumentation, composed by rock songwriters and performed by them in conjunction with musicians who worked in both genres at the time, with one prominent jazz soloist. But that's obviously my take, and none of the sources go into specifics about how, exactly, it's jazz-rock. Daniel Case (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Musically, it is a tonally sophisticated and structurally complex work that was praised on its release as the most ambitious song the duo had ever attempted. → This is only attributed to one source, as some parts of the source don't quite match this sentence. I think it is being interpreted a little bit.

I could go all LEADCITE on you and say that as long as claims like the first part of the sentence (which my personal interpretation of LEADCITE holds doesn't have to be cited in an introwhereas being claimed as "most ambitious" should be considered an extraordinary claim since it involves a superlative) are repeated and cited in the article's body they need not be cited in the intro. But I see your point, since the note would lead one to believe it supported the entire sentence, and I will put a cite in for the first part, since when it is restated further down I do have cites for it. Daniel Case (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Why is so complex? What makes it complex?

Well, I sort of thought the idea of writing article intros was to get people to read the article itself, where statements like this are elaborated upon. When you read them in this article, you'll see that Breithaupt identified 24 separate sections of the song. Daniel Case (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• escape the stresses of his life "up on the hill." → Are these lyrics?

Yes, as the full sentence should make clear: "The song's lyrics are the interior monologue of a man who "run[s] to" the title character to escape the stresses of his life "up on the hill."" (emphasis mine). Daniel Case (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Supposedly it was inspired by a relative of someone Fagen knew, → This clause is structured wrong, but it also reads fans written.

I rewrote it, as the article directly quotes Fagen saying this. The "supposedly" reflects the fact that the two of them are known to be purposely vague and sometimes even contradictory when asked about their inspiration, depending on how much they think their interlocutor understands their work. Daniel Case (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• "tranquility that can come of a quiet relationship with a beautiful woman."[3] → Quotes are generally discouraged from being used in the lead.

I am not sure how you could paraphrase it without changing the meaning; I also think that where creative works are involved we should be more flexible about using the creator's own words to describe it, as long as they are reliably sourced.

And BTW your own sentence there could stand to be rewritten—it should be "we discourage editors from using quotations in the intro". See? Active voice, right subject, right word. Daniel Case (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• and unlike many of the other tracks on the album, → There's only six, according to the first paragraph, so this reads a bit odd.

That still leaves five other songs. I suppose it should be "most of the other." Daniel Case (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Both combined for solos → I don't understand this.

Now this, on further examination, does sound strange (If you listen to the clip you realize they're both soloing at the same time. But at this point in the article it's unlikely the reader has gotten that far. So I fixed it. Daniel Case (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Gadd continued his, the first drum solo in a Steely Dan song,[5] in the song's tag, all recorded in just two takes. → This is really jumbled up.

Facepalm And that's why, if I had nominated this myself, I would not have done so without a hard copy proofread. what happens when you start off writing one sentence and finish a different one. Fixed now. Daniel Case (talk) 22:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• It has been a favorite of the band's fans,[8] → If this is in the main body, then it doesn't need a citation here.

Why was that a problem a few notes ago but not now? IME this is something that people see in intros, and then either slap with a {{fact}} tag or go on the talk page and complain about instead of finishing the article and getting to where it's actually cited. Daniel Case (talk) 22:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• You don't mention the producer in the lead.

 Done. Daniel Case (talk) 22:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• The whole lead is a bit messy. It needs rewriting.

Other than what I've already done? Daniel Case (talk) 22:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• A lot of the first paragraph of the Background section is not relevant. This song is from their sixth album, so we don't need info from 6 years previous as to before they formed. That is needed on the first, and perhaps second, album only. But this is a song article, so it's not needed even more so.

My intent was to explain how a rock band came to record a song that tilts so far into the jazz spectrum. But I will try to trim it down. Daniel Case (talk) 22:58, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• You would add The Village Recorder to the parameter for Recorded in the info box.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:37, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

• Gary Katz produced, → Gary Katz produced the song,

reworded. Daniel Case (talk) 05:37, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

• Words such as 'Ultimately', 'Eventually', 'Supposedly' read really fan-written and you shouldn't use them.

Will take under advisement. Daniel Case (talk) 05:37, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

• Drum solo section opens with a quote to no prior explanation of what its significance is or who is meant to have said it.
• Avoid one line paragraphs like in Reception and Samples.
• There's an awful lot of content in the Recording and Composition sections. They are very detailed and very big. These could easily be condensed and streamlined.
• You say its a fan favourite in the Legacy section but I can't see anything that supports that.
• WhoSampled is not a reliable source. I checked at RSN and it was confirmed as such.
• There are am incredible amount of quotes in this article. Some need to be paraphrased into your own words for sure.

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Not jazz

Although I don't have a source in front of me, I've been following the band for a long time. They never claimed to be a jazz band. They were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Back when there were record stores, you would never find Steely Dan albums filed with Duke Ellington and Miles Davis and Ella Fitzgerald. Fagen's hero seem to be Ray Charles. Even "jazz rock" seems like a stretch given how often that term has been used for jazz fusion, and there are people who think jazz fusion isn't jazz, though I'm not not one of them. Wikiproject stretches the definition to allow for acts of all kinds from all over the world, but there are limits.
Vmavanti (talk) 18:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

No, they never did call themselves a jazz band, but neither Becker nor Fagen ever hid/have hidden their affection for bebop and other postwar jazz movements. They covered one of Ellington's works, "East St. Louis Toodle-oo", on Pretzel Logic, on that same album "Parker's Band" is a pretty clear tribute to Charlie, and in other work they've namechecked Cathy Berberian. They also had no problem, after deciding post-Logic that the band would be just them and whatever studio musicians they could put together who would give them the performance/interpretation they wanted. That often included musicians (like, on this track, Shorter and Larry Carlton) who had become notable for their work on jazz and fusion recordings.

In any case, genres are usually given when sourced, and this one is. I would also point out that one of the sources is a musicological journal that discusses the bebop influence on one surprising chord change in the song. Daniel Case (talk) 18:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Oh, boy, our standards are really low if you are considered a jazz musician for "namechecking Cathy Berberian". Or doing one cover version. Or getting praise from some out of touch academic. Or hiring Larry Carlton and Phil Woods. It used to be called name dropping, and it was considered bad form. If you want to play the trivia game, I can do that, too. Donald Fagen is playing a Sonny Rollins album on the cover of The Nightfly. He told a reporter in 2006, "I basically listen to the same 40 albums that I listened to in high school, near Princeton. I had much better taste then. I was a kid jazz fan. I only like seven or eight of the greatest artists: Sonny Rollins, Charles Mingus, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk...And I like big-band arrangers, like Gil Evans. There's a band called the Sauter-Finegan Orchestra that I used to like for the arrangements." It makes obvious sense to accept the judgment of Becker and Fagen that they were not jazz musicians and that Steely Dan is not a jazz band. They say this music isn't jazz. I don't even think of it as jazz rock, a term I've really never liked. It certainly isn't jazz fusion.

If you want to complain about this in a productive way, follow the link WT:JAZZ. Having this discussion here isn't really adding anything to the article, nor IMO will it. Daniel Case (talk) 22:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

It's not complaining. It's stating the facts. There's a difference. And here's a quotation. "I'm not interested in a rock/jazz fusion", Becker told Rolling Stone in 1974. "That kind of marriage has so far only come up with ponderous results. We play rock and roll, but we swing when we play. We want that ongoing flow, that lightness, that forward rush of jazz." [2]

• We don’t go by what the band says, we use reliable sources to determine genre. Here, it’s clear that reliable sources call it jazz rock. Calidum 18:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
  • How can the band members themselves be unreliable about their own music? Are you suggesting you know better than they do, though they wrote the song? What sources have called this a jazz song?
    Vmavanti (talk) 19:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
    • See WP:IS and related pages on using sources independent of the subject. No one is claiming it is a jazz song, but it is a jazz rock song per the sources cited in the article like Rolling Stone and AllMusic. Calidum 20:33, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

You know better than Walter Becker about his music. OK.
Vmavanti (talk) 00:14, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

References

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Aja (song)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kyle Peake (talk · contribs) 07:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Will begin on this today. --Kyle Peake (talk) 07:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: Thanks a lot ... I am sort of busy this weekend and I am working on developing another new article under a self-imposed deadline so I may not be able to respond or make changes for a couple of days ... Daniel Case (talk) 18:10, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Thanks for letting me know, that's fine with me as it will take a few days to review this since it's relatively large. Plus you will have a week to respond to my points if I ultimately put this article on hold. --Kyle Peake (talk) 19:52, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Infobox and lead

• Lay genres out in a hlist, same for songwriter(s)

 Done

• References are not needed in the lead as that info is described in the body; same with the note

I moved the refs into the body but not the note, since nowhere else in the body does it make that claim (the "longest" in "Versions" refers to the live version, which is the longest track they ever recorded. I have similarly qualified the statement in the intro.

And may I just say that while I understand the reasoning for this article—to be fair, I had added those cites when I started because I had just written the intro and you know how it is—there's always some eager-beaver editor who will tag it as uncited or even prod it even if it's obvious you're going to expand it. So I do it defensively.

I'm not going to complain as I sometimes do about LEADCITE—which by its own wording does not require this—being applied so rigidly here. But ... I wonder if whoever wrote it had enough experience maintaining articles in the longterm and having to deal with similar eager-beaver new editors, or anons, tagging stuff in intros with {{fact}}. Perhaps we need to communicate that to editors with an editnotice or in-line commented text, or we could consider that a fair amount of readers read only the intro and tag stuff there with {{fact}} so they can no doubt feel proud of themselves for a few minutes afterwards. Daniel Case (talk) 06:13, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

That's fine.

• ""Aja" is a jazz rock song by the American rock band" → ""Aja" is a song by American rock band" as you listed it as multiple genres, so mention all of them in one sentence after this, something along the lines of "The song is a jazz rock track that includes elements of jazz fusion and progressive rock."

 Done, although sort of amusing inasmuch as Jazz rock is a deep redirect to a section of jazz fusion.

• "Steely Dan from the album of the same name" → "Steely Dan, consisting of Walter Becker and Donald Fagen from their sixth studio album of the same name"
• "It was composed by Walter Becker and Donald Fagen, the band's two members, who respectively play guitar and synthesizer on the track" → "It was composed by the band, with Becker and Fagen respectively playing guitar and synthesizer on the song"
• "Fagen sings lead vocals" → "Fagen sings the lead vocals"

 Done Tightened this up even more.

• "ABC Records released the album" → "The album was released through ABC Records"
• "Musically, it is a tonally sophisticated and structurally complex work that was praised on its release as the most ambitious song" → "Musically, the song is a tonally sophisticated and structurally complex work that was praised on its release as the most ambitious track" as you referenced the song a few sentences back so it's confusing now
• "The song's lyrics are the interior monologue" → "The song's lyrics center around the interior monologue"

 Done, although I'm not sure it "centers around" an interior monologue when there's nothing in the lyrics that doesn't seem to be part of said monologue.

• "who "run[s] to"" → "who runs to" as not everything has to be quoted
• "Fagen claims it" → "Fagen claimed that it"

 Done But he still says that in interviews (I guess Becker, though, has to take only the past tense now, though). Daniel Case (talk) 06:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "on the album, it took a very short time to record" → "on the album, "Aja" took a very short time to record" as you can write the title again in a new para

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "which Becker and Fagen credit" → "which Steely Dan credit"

 Done, although it has been my experience in writing about Steely Dan that, especially in the post-Pretzel Logic phase of their career, when Becker and Fagen were the only constants between albums and between tracks on those albums, that the name of the band is used as a noun primarily when referring to them as a group of musicians who played a particular song or released a particular album, and that when you're talking about them in any other way, particularly in terms of what they say about their work when interviewed, you use the quoted individual's last name(s). Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "the musicians' superior sight-reading skills" → "Steve Gadd's superior sight-reading skills"

Reworded so it more accurately reflects what I wrote in the body. Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "Making their first appearance, on the other hand, were tenor saxophonist Wayne Shorter and drummer Steve Gadd." → "On the other hand, tenor saxophonist Wayne Shorter and drummer Steve Gadd made their first appearances."
• Remove WikiLink to Steve Gadd in this sentence; keep as Steve Gadd though as that is not his real name

 Done but I'm missing something here. Why should his name not be linked? The article on him begins with the words "Stephen Kendall Gadd" ... sure sounds like that's his real name. Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "that have contributed greatly to its reputation and" start new sentence at "and."

reworded around that. Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "It has been considered among their finest work; Gadd's, the first drum solo in a Steely Dan song, in the song's tag, was recorded in just two takes." this should be the new sentence
• "called the "Aja" session" → "called the recording session"
• "It is the longest song the band ever recorded, running approximately eight minutes." → ""Aja" is the longest song that the band have ever recorded, running for approximately eight minutes".
• "began touring again" → "began touring again as Steely Dan"
• Remove dead WikiLink to Live in America

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Background

• Remove WikiLink to Steely Dan
• "with Becker playing bass (occasionally guitar) and" → "with Becker playing bass and occasionally guitar, and"

 Done although I think my rewording is even better. Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "Even on the group's first album, Can't Buy a Thrill, however, they had" → "Even on the group's debut studio album, Can't Buy a Thrill, they had"

 Done although I think we've become entirely too paranoid about "however" (It's a word to watch, not avoid completely in non-quote text). Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• Change target Concert#Concert tour to Concert#Tour
• "to stop touring to focus on songwriting" → "to stop touring for focus on songwriting"

How about "to stop touring and focus on songwriting"? Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah that'd work.

• "focus on songwriting, The remaining other members left" → "focus on songwriting. The remaining other members left"
• "of the influence of the jazz the two had listened to during their formative years" → "of the influence that listening to jazz during their formative years had on the two"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "the time they began writing and recording" → "the time that they had began writing and recording"

I don't see how the absence of a relative pronoun hurts that sentence too much. Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink to Aja

 Done Although MOS:DUPLINK says it's OK to link the first reappearance after the intro (also, you'd be surprised—or maybe not—by how many readers, notwithstanding what I said above, will skip the intro entirely if that's what they want. I have never felt that we should make those readers scroll all over the article, or God forbid use the search function on their browser, for the first link. Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• "the two felt comfortable enough" → "Becker and Fagen felt comfortable enough"
• "He describes "Aja" as a suite, created" → "He described "Aja" as a suite, that was created"
• "called "Stand by the Seawall" they had recorded" → "called "Stand by the Seawall", which they had recorded"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "has long claimed it was" → "has long claimed that it was"

Again, I really don't see how "that" is necessary to alleviate any potential confusion. Daniel Case (talk) 15:42, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "in the Army in that country" → "in the Army in South Korea" as Korean can mean North or South currently

I added "South" to "Korean woman". Daniel Case (talk) 15:42, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• What is the last quote referencing as there is no statement before or after? I'm confused...

The usual assumption is that, since no other speaker is referenced in the graf, it's Fagen. But if you think it's confusing, I added an interpolated attribution. Daniel Case (talk) 15:42, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Recording

• First two paragraphs are unsourced

Hmm? Not as of this reading. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Daniel Case The source says nothing about the song being recorded in Los Angeles. --Kyle Peake (talk) 13:45, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, OK, that's what you meant. I have found some RSes (JazzWax, a blog by a respected and notable jazz critic, and Sound on Sound, that support the album and song being recorded in LA. Daniel Case (talk) 17:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Update: I decided to stick with just Myers on that one; Sound on Sound only mentions the VR without going into specifics. Daniel Case (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Change target Grammy Awards of 1978 to 20th Annual Grammy Awards
• "and Denny Dias" → "and Dias" as we already know his full name

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "and done arrangements for Aja" → "and he contributed arrangements for Aja"

I don't see why the pronoun is necessary; it's clearly a compound predicate. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "challenging for the guitarists. "Its..." → "challenging for the guitarists, claiming that "Its..."
• "you can't reach the notes"[18]" → "you can't reach the notes."[18]"
• "used much of his work" → "used much of Dias' work" as you haven't mentioned his name for sentences
• "it would be his last appearance with Steely Dan" → "it stood as his last appearance with Steely Dan"
• "on any of their records" → "on their records"

All  Done Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• Change target Theme (music) to Subject (music)

Didn't know that was the link now (has it been moved since I wrote the article, I guess). May I just note that some reviewers don't consider using the unredirected link target in a piping to be all that important? I don't mind, but consider that sometimes having that little "redirected from" at the top of the page is more in keeping with the principle of least astonishment than always using the correct target. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Fagen sang the lead vocal" → "Fagen sang the lead vocals"
• Change target The Eagles to Eagles (band)
• Change target police whistle to Whistle#Joseph Hudson

I changed the deeplink target of the redirect instead, which someone should have bothered to do whenever the section was renamed. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "He left the bulk of the keyboard parts to others. Joe Sample played the..." I'm confused, is the electronic piano classified as a keyboard??? If so then merge these two sentences together with ;. If not, then who did play the keyboard???

 Done Good for you for recommending the semicolon. I may have done that originally and someone else thought the sentence ran on too long that way; unfortunately there are editors like that. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "played bass" → "played the bass on "Aja"" as the sentence reads better plus you never ref the song's title once in this section (not counting the same titled album)

I put it in the first sentence, even though I don't think anyone would somehow imagine that, in an article about "Aja", someone would think, absent any grammatical or semantic signals to the contrary, any other song was being referred to. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "but settled instead for Steve Gadd" → "but ultimately settled for Steve Gadd instead"

That sounds sort of redundant to me ... most of the time when you settle for something/someone else, it is the ultimate thing you do by definition. It's in the same vein as "the plane returned back to the airport". Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Despite its complexity (three music stands were required to hold the charts for each player in the rhythm section[21]) the song" → "Despite its complexity, with three music stands being required to hold the charts for each player in the rhythm section,[21] the song"

I just recast the sentence; good writing should avoid that kind of awkward participular construction beginning with "being" wherever it can. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "in contrast to other, simpler songs on the record" → "in contrast to the other simpler songs on the record" overusing of commas is obvious

That's not the overuse of commas—the MOS is silent on the subject of commas being used to separate coordinate adjectives, but ... well, it's a tough call as to whether they're coordinate or not, in fact by the usual tests ("and" in between them, reversing them) they're not. But removing the comma here creates confusion, as you could be implying "Aja" is "simpler" as well. So ... I have just recast the sentence again to avoid the issue. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Originally they planned to rehearse for a day" → "Originally, they planned to rehearse for a day"
• "but "we just decided..." → "but they "just decided..."

 Done I (ahem) decided that if we were going to chop off that first pronoun it was better, again, to recast. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "During a 2000 BBC online chat Fagen recalled that some other sections set aside for solos were instead discarded," → "During a 2000 BBC online chat, Fagen recalled some other sections set aside for solos being instead discarded"
  • I avoided this cumbersome "being" with "Fagen recalled discarding some other sections set aside for solos", which is nice and tighter instead. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Drum solo

• "including the solos (the first drum solos ever on a Steely Dan record[5])," → "including the solos that marked the first drum solos ever on a Steely Dan record,[5]"

Tightened that up to "including the first drum solos on a Steely Dan record". Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "said Becker. "I remember," → "said Becker. He elaborated, "I remember,"

I'm not sure that the reader really needs that. Instead, I just used less of the quote, which the MOS encourages. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Ten years later he elaborated" → "Ten years later, he elaborated"

Saxophone solo

• "The first half of Gadd and Shorter's solos" should have a fullstop

No, because it's a sentence fragment and per MOS:CAPTION: Most captions are not complete sentences but merely sentence fragments that should not end with a period." Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink to tenor saxophone as this is overlinking

I'm not sure every reader understands the difference between types of saxophones. If it was just "saxophone", yes, I'd agree, but here it's stated and important that it's a tenor sax. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "had also backed Miles Davis" → "had also backed Davis" as Miles Davis is his real name

Well, I think that's more because he was mentioned and linked two sections up. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "When he came to the studio, he prepared" → "When he came to the studio, Dick LaPalm prepared"

OK, I get the point. I replaced the pronouns. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Shorter recalls his decision" → "Shorter recalled his decision"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• ""quite matter-of-fact"." → ""quite matter-of-fact.""
• "just one minute"." → "just one minute.""

See MOS:LQ: "Include terminal punctuation within the quotation marks only if it was present in the original material, and otherwise place it after the closing quotation mark." Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• "she concluded" shouldn't this be "she concludes" as the rest of this paragraph is wrote in this tense? I'm not too sure, please explain yes or no.

Since in paraphrasing or summarizing commentary on a work we generally use the present, you were right and I have made the change. Daniel Case (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Missing master tape

• Change target Audio mastering to Mastering (audio)
• ""Aja", along with "Black Cow," were missing" → ""Aja" and "Black Cow" were both missing"
• Change target Liner note to Liner notes

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Composition

• Remove WikiLink to Aja

Lyrics

• Change target interior monologue to Stream of consciousness

Given the relative coherence of the lyrics, the former makes more sense. The latter article itself says,: "Similarly the Encyclopædia Britannica Online, while agreeing that these terms are 'often used interchangeably', suggests, that 'while an interior monologue may mirror all the half thoughts, impressions, and associations that impinge upon the character's consciousness, it may also be restricted to an organized presentation of that character's rational thoughts'" Daniel Case (talk) 05:22, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "of his regimented, passionless" → "of his regimented and passionless"

 Done although in this case it's because "regular" isn't coordinate with these two. Daniel Case (talk) 05:35, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• ""people never stare / They just don't care"," → ""people never stare / They just don't care,""

Logical quotation, again ... a new sentence begins after this line ("Chinese music always sets me free ..."), so the comma isn't in the original.

• "whose lyrics are always the same" → "the lyrics of which are always the same" the chorus is not a person

Again I found a less awkward way to say that.

• "more complex lyrics" → "more complex lyrical tracks" as you are referencing individual songs

 Done "More lyrically complex" is probably what you were trying to get at. Daniel Case (talk) 05:35, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink to Aja
• "and other albums before and after" → "and a number of other albums"

 Done "and their other albums"

• "("they think I'm okay)." Why is there no closing of speech marks and when you close, add . inside for consistency?
• ""they think I'm okay/Or so they say";" → "they think I'm okay/Or so they say;""
• ""Chinese music under banyan trees ... always sets me free"," → ""Chinese music under banyan trees ... always sets me free,""
• ""in the sky tonight"." → "in the sky tonight.""
• ""my dime ... I run ...", joined" → ""my dime ... I run ..." and is joined"
• Don't need to point every one out, you can see where punctuation should be moved.

Logical quotation, again. Daniel Case (talk) 05:35, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "in the band's music" → "in Steely Dan's music" as you haven't referenced the name for a while
• "elsewhere on the album "Your Gold Teeth" refers" → "elsewhere on the album, "Your Gold Teeth" refers"
• "had a song about" → "includes a song about"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:35, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink to Gaucho

It's been quite a while since it was previously referenced in the "drum solo" section. I don't think it's really fair to make the reader scroll back up to look for the link. Daniel Case (talk) 05:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "second single, referenced → "second single, references"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "The use of "Up on the hill..." you forgot to close speech marks and if Chinese music is inside the speech marks, then it should be in quotation marks like ' instead.

"Chinese music" is from the lyrics; not putting it in quotes would probably create confusion.

• "Spin suggested" → "Winston Cook-Wilson of Spin suggested" as Spin is not a person and if you know the name of the writer then add it obviously

 Done, although I recall once being excoriated for doing exactly that and told I was "name-dropping." I've heard some people say that we should generally only include the author's name on a single mention like this if they themselves are notable. Daniel Case (talk) 05:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "and, the magazine posited" → "and, Cook-Wilson posited"
• "is "about eight minutes" (the song's running time).[42]" → "is "about eight minutes," which is the song's running time.[42]"

 Done I think we can do this last one just as well with a comma. Daniel Case (talk) 05:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Music

• "on which the previous track, "Black Cow", the album's opener, had ended" → "on which the album's previous track and opener "Black Cow" had ended"

Couldn't find a way to not make this sound awkward, and it's not really relevant that it's the opener, so I took it out. Daniel Case (talk)

• Remove WikiLink on Omartian

Last use of his name was several sections back. Readers who skip down here might not otherwise be able to figure out who this guy is.

• "with Omartian opening with a Bmaj9" → "opening with a Bmaj9 from Omartian"
• "Omartian plays variations for the first eight bars (actually a repeated four-bar figure) as" → "He plays variations for the first eight bars, which are actually a repeated four-bar figure, as"
• "him, and some" → "him. Gadd also works some" as there are too many commas otherwise
• Remove WikiLink on Sample
• Remove WikiLink on Rainey
• Remove WikiLink on Feldman

Again, I don't think this is fair to readers who skip all the way down here. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "This eight-bar section concludes" → "The section is eight bars and concludes"

 Done Better: "After eight bars, the section concludes with"

• Remove WikiLink on chorus
• "last word, "you" sounds" → "last word, "you," sounds"

LQ again. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink on bebop

The previous mention and link was, again, way back up. It is an extremely relevant link in this section. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "The passage that ends on the Neapolitan sixth" should have a .

Again, per MOS:CAPTION, it should not. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "like [this]", Spin" → "like [this]," Spin"

LQ. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "will move".[41]" → "will move."[41]"

The original has a semicolon there, so per LQ the punctuation goes outside of the quotes. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink on synthesizer
• "on that bridge" → "on the bridge"
• "Through it all Dias plays" → "Through it all, Dias plays"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink on Dias

Again, readers who scrolled down may want to know who this guy is without having to scroll back up. Try reading the article on your phone, or an online phone simulator, and see what it's like to scroll around. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "I kind of liked" since" → "I kind of liked," since"

OK, this one I did since the comma is in the original quote. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink on police whistle

I'll go with this one since I think the deep link above is kind of ridiculous. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "going on for 16 bars" → "lasting for 16 bars" encyclopedic

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink on tenor saxophone

OK, I'll do this one since I don't see people scrolling back up to look for it. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Add who/where the last quote is from

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Reception

• Retitle to Release and reception
• Remove WikiLink to Aja

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "#3 in the Billboard album charts" → "number 3 on the Billboard album charts"

MOS:NUMBERSIGN says the abbreviation "No." in this context is equally acceptable. Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Remove WikiLink on liner notes

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "music journalist "Michael Phalen" (actually Becker and Fagen themselves)" → "music journalist "Michael Phalen", which was actually Becker and Fagen themselves"

I just went with "a pseudonym used by Becker and Fagen"

• Remove WikiLink on Steve Gadd
• Add more reviews in here; this is possible as there are multiple reviews of the album and give it a total of around four so you can change "Real critics" to "The song received (positive, negative or other) reviews from music critics."

I'll see what I can do on this later. For now I think I'll just make it "An actual critic". What I was looking for was reviews that specifically mentioned the title track and said something about it. Believe me I looked. Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Billboard, too, noted" → "The staff of Billboard, too, noted"
• "It called" → "They called"

I decided just to say "A Billboard reviewer" and so forth. Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• ""nothing less than dreamy"." → ""nothing less than dreamy.""

LQ Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Legacy

• "is not played" → "was not played"

How about "has not been played"? There's plenty of classic rock stations that still play Steely Dan, and sometimes they play this song. Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah that works.

• Remove brackets in first sentence

You meant the parentheses, right? Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "AllMusic calls" → "Stewart Mason of AllMusic calls"
• "put "Aja" on a list" → "placed "Aja" on a list"

 Done "Listed 'Aja' among the band's five most essential songs

• "most essential songs he compiled" → "most essential songs that he compiled"
• Remove WikiLink on Shorter
• ""suitable for bronzing"," → ""suitable for bronzing,""
• "in his mind", said" → "in his mind," said"

LQ Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "The Library of Congress" → "Brian Sweet of the Library of Congress"
• "on the title track among" → "on the track as being among"
• "when it added" → "when the library added"
• Remove WikiLink on Gadd
• "Rhythm magazine" → "Richard Chamberlain of Rhythm magazine"
• "Jazz Times put "Aja" among" → "The staff of Jazz Times placed "Aja" among"
• "pop music legend".[61]" → "pop music legend."[61]"
• "Spin called the solo" → "Cook-Wilson of Spin called the solo" as we have referenced him already in the article
• Remove WikiLink on Spin

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "heart of the album"[41]" → "heart of the album,"[41]"

LQ Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "NIelson" → "Nielson"

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "spectacular'".[56]" → "spectacular'."[56]"

LQ Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "since her mother liked it" → "since her mother was a fan of it" as this is more encyclopedic

Okay, but this is about the only time I've read someone say that we can't use "like". Daniel Case (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Personnel

• Only cite ref 14 and do it once at the top of the section; see "24K Magic" as an example of how to insert "Credits adapted from the liner notes"
• Move below samples

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:52, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Versions

• "Since Aja's release" → "Since the release of "Aja""

Why do we have to do this? What's wrong with the possessive? I see no MOS reason to do it (MOS:N'T applies only to contractions. Daniel Case (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Both of those versions" → "Both of the versions"

 Done "Both versions"

• "It is on the Alive in America album as the last track." → "It was released as the 11th and last track on the Alive in America album in 1995."

{ Done, albeit with trimmer wording. Daniel Case (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• Does the tour title really need to be in speech marks?

Good question. It does seem like some bands, at least bands that name their tours something other than the supported album, use quotes for this and others don't. Is there a general preference here? We should perhaps settle this. Daniel Case (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

• "In its review, The New York Times" → "In his review, Ben Ratliff of The New York Times"

 Done, although I made it "New York Times critic Ben Ratliff ..." Daniel Case (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Covers

• Would be better written out in prose

Samples

• Remove WikiLink to Aja
• "single was a modest hit, reaching #22" → "single was a moderate success, reaching number 22"
• Remove WikiLink on Billboard
• Change target AM radio to AM broadcasting

References

• A number of these need archiving once the machine is back up; try and add manually if you can

  Some users have told me that the machine doesn't work for them, though it current works for me so I have done this myself. None are dead, but some still need editing in other ways below.

• Ref 6 is dead
• Refs 7, 8 and 9 should cite the official reviewer as the author
• Ref 9 is missing an access date
• Ref 13 doesn't give the selected info though it may if you use an archive
• Ref 19 is dead and should WikiLink to Steely Dan as all of the other sources with their site do
• Ref 20 is dead
• Ref 30 is dead
• Ref 53 should say AllMusic instead of Allmusic.com
• Ref 59 is dead
• Ref 60 should italicize Rhythm
• Ref 61 should italicize Jazz Times
• Change ref 63 to using AllMusic as a publisher and remove the initial mention from title
• Same with refs 64 and 65
• Ref 70 needs to cite a publisher
• Refs aren't consistent for AllMusic - should either consistently state it as a sole publisher or "at AllMusic".

Final comments and verdict

A lot of issues, but I have faith in you resolving them within a week. Putting this  On hold and I have noticed throughout the article, as pointed out on various occasions, that you have a tendency for over-linking. Once you have linked to something once in the body, don't link to it in other sections. Keep an eye out in case there was any I missed out on! Plus for an article this large, you should include an image at least once, so add one to make it up to GA standards. --Kyle Peake (talk) 18:25, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Just to let you know, remember that on hold only last for a week so if the issues aren't sorted by tomorrow, this will be failed. Kyle Peake (talk) 06:40, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: I'm working on it ... my time both online and (especially) off these last two weeks has been shorter than I had expected for a number of reasons I don't feel like going into online. Daniel Case (talk) 16:24, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Been a week's time since the article was placed on hold and it still hasn't been made up to GA status. Unfortunately, I'll have to ✗ Fail this but props to you for making improvements and I would be willing to review this again if it has been further improved at a later date. --Kyle Peake (talk) 19:05, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WikiProject Rock music

@Daniel Case: You might want to assess the song on the project's scale. --Kyle Peake (talk) 15:37, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

My understanding is that someone who hasn't worked on the article much should do it (beyond moving it from stub- to start-class). Daniel Case (talk) 15:09, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: There is no rule that you can't change the class yourself, unless it's to GA or FA status. Good luck with your working on the article after my comments, actually. --Kyle Peake (talk) 15:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: Thank you; I'm hoping to start work on your punch list by the weekend; I'm currently putting the finishing touches on FM Non-Duplication Rule so as to get it on DYK for Sunday (the 55th anniversary of the rule's adoption).

As for not reassessing articles, I guess that has just been a personal thing, because I think it's right (it would be like your teacher letting you grade your own paper IMO). Daniel Case (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Each to their own, and I have no issue with the article being done over the weekend; as long as the issues are addressed within the week limit it's fine. Kyle Peake (talk) 17:37, 27 June 2019 (UTC)