Talk:Andalusi Arabic

Also Hispano-Arabic?

Is the term Hispano-Arabic a synonym for Andalusian Arabic or is that something else? — Hippietrail (talk) 00:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The term Hispano-Arabic has been used to refer to Andalusian Arabic, but it is also used in other contexts. Szfski (talk) 06:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

andalusian arabic isn't exntinted !! in northern morocco mainly in "Tangier" and "tetuan" we still use a big part of andalusian arabic , i hope you change the satatus please . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.221.253.207 (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

it's spoken in north west morocco only

Moroccan Arabic has nothing to do with Andalusian Arabic ! we here in the Tangier-Tetuan region (also known as belad jebala) we still use a big part of it . and our dialect is not the Moroccan Arabic we speak a different Arabic dialect . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.214.212.81 (talk) 01:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

IPA transcriptions are imprecise and mostly wrong

The IPA transcriptions of pronunciations are very likely to be wrong, since it generalizes the use of [a] for what is very likely to be [æ]~[ɛ]~[e] or [ɑ], additionally it adds a glottal stop [ʔ] at the beginning of the definitive article al- which is false, because it is the same case in the majority of languages. The glottal stop here is only pronounced when someone starts uttering al- not in the middle of a sentence. English examples for that are, "instant, appeal, apple, energy, order, up..." The naming of "standard Arabic" is misused, making it seem like it's not rather a literary language but a language with one real global standard. I will attempt to fix the issue by using either broad IPA transcription as the vowels in question are uncertain or use non-IPA transcription. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 09:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 10:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

On sun and moon letters

It has been written on this article (clearly there is some source which claims this) that the distinction between sun and moon letters in the article is not made in andalusi arabic. This is just untrue if we look at modern spanish. You say Arroz not alroz. You say aceite not alceite, you say azafrán not alsafrán, you say ataúd, not altaúd. But you say alcazar because it is from al qasr. No distinction with rule in modern arabic. I dont know what the wiki policy is, when a source says something which is evidently untrue on an obscure topic which cant be contrasted. In any case it is currently unsourced so i have deleted the statement. If someone does find a source, which makes this ludicrous claim, it should be discussed before reincluding it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.190.171 (talk) 14:58, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Multiple issues with the accuracy of this article

Hello,

I am of a Mozarab and Al Andalus Arab tribe. I note many errors with this article. I have never edited this site before so I don't want to change it.

Firstly, this dialect is not dead like the article says. Very few speak it in its classical form, and it is spoken as a discipline in its classical form and for music only. There are still peoples in Andalucia who speak it, such as the gypsies in the mountains. They speak the pure old form for musics and and a modern derivative. In North East Morocco, and Occupied Melilla, in Tunisia and East Algeria there are still tribes and families who speak it, and although there are slight differences, we can all understand to each other. I don't know why this article says the language is dead when it isnt? It even says later that it is still sung so this doesn't make sense. We are not speaking as this dialect is a major dialect, maybe a few tens of thousands speak it at most, not as a primary language, and scattered across north africa. But to say this language "was" is wrong.

Please memo, I am not mixing up andalus arabic with regional dialects influenced by andalus arabic. No way. People of al andalus in their cities still speakk it to this day.

Likewise, still some very old rural people in Sardina speak Sardinian Arabic. Maybe it will die in 1 generation but still it is not dead- some parts of this website say it is dead and others dont.

Further, I do not think all examples are correct here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndausUpdateArab (talk • contribs) 10:49, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but saying things like for example "there are still peoples in Andalucia who speak it, such as the gypsies in the mountains" makes it very difficult to take you seriously. --Jotamar (talk) 17:23, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

At any rate, it's a question of reliable sources (preferably academic consensus). Wikipedia can (or should, by its rules and guidelines) never take in just what somebody says, no matter how correct it might happen to be. 151.177.57.135 (talk) 15:12, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

"Whence the initial n- on verbs in the first person singular, a feature shared by many Maghrebi dialects." The English word 'whence' is usually listed in dictionaries as archaic, so a reader coming here--particular a non-native English reader--is going to be puzzled. Also, 'whence' is either a question word (but this sentence doesn't seem to be a question) or a subordinate clause marker (but this isn't a subordinate clause, or at least it's not punctuated as if it was--it's punctuated as an independent sentence). The same word 'whence' is used in the preceding paragraph, although there it seems to be a subordinate clause. I'm not sure what the article is trying to say in either instance--it's possible the author meant 'hence' rather than 'whence', although that's still a bit archaic for many English readers. I *think*, but am not sure, that it could be replaced by "for example" in both instances, although the second instance will also need to be grammatically altered by punctuating it (perhaps replacing the preceding period with a semicolon), or by putting a verb in there ("For example, Andalusian Arabic verbs show an initial n-..."). Mcswell (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

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Map in article is misleading

Al-Andalus in 814

The linguistic area of Andalusi Arabic shown in the article's map is misleading because Andalusi Arabic would not have yet existed in the very short time the northwest of the peninsula was under Muslim control. The revolt in Galicia began as early as 739 when the Christian nobles rose up against their new Muslim overlords and joined forces with the Asturians to begin driving out Muslim forces from the area, a process largely complete by 850. This would also apply to the area in the northeast that is now part of France, where Pepin's forces forced Muslim troops to leave Narbonne in 759. There is no way Andalusi Arabic would have existed in these areas at such an ea\rly time after the Muslim invasion. New dialects take time to appear and therefore a map of Al-Andalus at a later date is needed. I suggest a new map be made based on later borders like this one on the right: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.15.35 (talk) 20:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Map deleted. --Jotamar (talk) 23:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I don’t think the accuracy tag merits being on the article anymore given the fact that it was put there because of the map and now the map is gone. TheNewLetters (talk) 18:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Andalusian or Andalusi?

We use Andalusi to refer to Al-Andalus and Andalusian to refer to Andalusia. Andalusia does not correspond in any way to Al-Andalus, so shouldn't the Arabic dialect spoken in Iberia be called Andalusi instead of Andalusian? Super Ψ Dro 20:36, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree and support this change. إيان (talk) 03:33, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed this and generally agree, though it should go through an RM. Although "Andalusian Arabic" is a term used in some Arabic linguistics books, "Andalusi Arabic" is more WP:PRECISE because it unambiguously refers to historic al-Andalus and not modern Andalusia; there are Arabic speakers in Andalusia today, but obviously that's not what this page is about. Frederico Corriente, one of the main specialists on the matter, also uses "Andalusi Arabic" in his publications, so it's a reasonable and academically accepted option. R Prazeres (talk) 05:21, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 24 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 10:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

---

Andalusian Arabic → Andalusi Arabic – "Andalusian" is ambiguous; it could refer to modern Andalusia. "Andalusi" clearly refers to al-Andalus. إيان (talk) 04:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support because of the given reasons. --Jotamar (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support as clearer. Srnec (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support as per nom and my similar comments in section above. R Prazeres (talk) 03:18, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Portuguese

Recently, Melroross deleted the mention of Portuguese among the Iberian languages connected to Andalusi Arabic, with the vague excuse of Irrelevant to Portuguese language or culture. This, and a later edition in this same page, is just an episode in a long history of editions by the same person always aimed at downplaying the link between Portugal and the Portuguese language with the Arab world and the Arab language. Besides, several of this editor's contributions in WP seem to be aimed at doing the opposite for Spain and the Spanish language: stressing their strong connections to the Arab world. Frankly, I'm fed up with this blatantly biased and close-minded behaviour, and I'm ready to use all of the mechanisms available in WP to stop it. In addition, I've found clues suggesting that this editor is using IP accounts as sockpuppets. For the moment I'm reverting the latest editions, while I'm considering further actions. Jotamar (talk) 18:54, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

if you want to take up behavioural issues of another editor than the place to do that is WP:ANI. If you think there is sock puppetry then take that up at WP:SPI. Neither are appropriate for an article talk page and, if raised here, could be considered a violation of WP:NPA. This page is solely for discussion of article content, not other editors. If you have issues on specific edits please raise them with sourced rationale for why they may be incorrect. DeCausa (talk) 20:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the info. --Jotamar (talk) 21:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The malicious suggestions of this Spanish, highly biased user 'Jotamar' reflect an obsession about the Spaniards relation with the Arab world indeed. My edits have nothing biased about them and every single time they've been reverted or contested it always involves Spaniards. In this case, one with a very twisted and manipulative conduct. So in order that these highly annoying and wrong reverts happen again by user:Jotamar, I am going to reinstate my absolute correct and factual entries on this entry: Spain had nearly 300 years of Arab occupation than Portugal. FACT. Spanish as a language is made up of 8% of Arabic-derived words, their culture, cuisine, music, architecture are all permeated with Arabic and Middle-Eastern components. Portuguese as a language as a mere around 500 words if that much in use, no intact Muslim buildings exist in the country, no more than 'influences' (that is some components which are part of usually Latin, Lusitanic, Celtic or Germanic ones) exist in some dishes and architural styles in the South of Portugal. So there is not a common culture, a common history or a common legacy between Spain and Portugal. Only the Spaniards are for some odd reason convinced of a common identity: does not exist and do NOT try and invoke some WP clause to try and MANIPULATE Wikipedia: this is not a political propaganda tool. It is about facts. Should this user revert any more of my edits, I will use the appropriate channels to have them focus on matters other than this obsession. I have dealt with another Spanish user who had good interactions with user:Jotamar if I remember, and after a few investigations by WP administrators turned out to have numerous sockett puppet accounts on precisely this topic. Some Spaniards seem to believe that Portugal and the Portuguese share the Spanish identity and history: they DON'T. And to come up with this kind of emotional and malicious outburst is not conducive to factual content. Finally, it is a completely false and again twisted allegation to suggest that I have ever used any fake accounts for unethical purposes. Should any further antagonism or defamation occur, I will report this interaction (easily identified in the WP historical ledger) to WP:ANI ~~Melroross~~ Melroross (talk) 08:10, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Images of documents

I've seen that one image was removed and another added in this September 2022 edit by user:إيان. The removed image was a part of a medical treaty by Al-Kattani. The added one was an ijaza by Al-Mawaq with the argument "a manuscript that actually came from al-Andalus". The fact that they come from Al-Andalus does not mean that they are Andalusi Arabic, as both of them represent classical Arabic. I have removed the last one but I'm adding this note in case someone one to step in and provide further analysis. Serg!o (talk) 10:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)