Talk:Antiochus I of Commagene

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I'm not prepared to work on this article. I know too little about the subject of the biography, Hermeticism, or Syrian/Anatolian ancient history. Were it either Greek or Roman or, for that matter Israel/Herod of the era, I might well take a chance. However, in reading I noticed that the first sentence in the third paragraph under the heading Mount Nemrut lacks a verb, rendering it nonsensical. (Antiochus’ version of Hermeticism where his remains were buried.)

There are several words which plausibly fit into the sentence: indicated, dictated, forecast, or recommended. However, each of them carries a different freight of meaning and again, I don't know which is the most appropriate.

Fortunately, I did not notice any other grammatical errors. --Tygerbryght (talk) 18:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Ancestry[edit]

@HistoryofIran: Since we weren’t able to solve our dispute at the DRN, per the recommendation of the mediator i’ll bring the discussion over here. Of the sources I provided to confirm Armenian ancestry which can be found in the history of the article and in my sandbox, please explain in detail how the sources don’t actually say he has Armenian descent because the vast majority of them are very explicit in saying exactly that. TagaworShah (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I already replied regarding that several times. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: You haven’t and this just confirms that you reverted without actually checking my sources, I bettered my sourcing several times. Look in the history of the article and please explain why those citations do not support Armenian ancestry please. TagaworShah (talk) 14:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My bad, you added two more sources in the midst of the same cherry-picked and misinterpreted sources you still insist on using. The Marek source vaguely says 'Iranian-Armenian' but questionably omits mention of Antiochus' Greek ancestry, which could suggest that he wasn't necessarily talking about origin of the latter, but whatever. I can't find access to the new edition of the Chahin source, could you link the file? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: Actually I added two more sources and more explicit quotes to previous sources such as the Wiley and De Gruyter source. Like the previous wiley quote was about the Armenian royal family but I replaced it with a direct quote that says Aniochus’ dad is of Armenian descent. The Marek source is just talking about his dyansty, the Orontids, who were Iranian/Armenian, that’s the reason it doesn’t mention his Greek ancestry. For your convenience I will arrange the sources I used here, I included a link to the new edition of the Chahin source below, the limited google books preview covers all the information needed.

Foltz, Richard (2016). Bonnie G. Smith (ed.). Iran in World History. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 31. ISBN 9780199335503.[1]

Nemrud in southeastern Anatolia, built by an Armenian king of the Commagene dynasty during the first century bce

Philippa Adrych, Robert Bracey, Dominic Dalglish, Stefanie Lenk, Rachel Wood. Jaś Elsner (ed.). Images of Mithra. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780192511119.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)[2]

He was a man of Orontid Armenian descent, a family that traced their line back to the fifthcentury BC emperor Darius I, thus claiming both Armenian and Persian Achaemenid origins.

Brijder, Herman A.G. (ed.) (2014), Nemrud Dağı: Recent Archaeological Research and Conservation Activities in the Tomb Sanctuary on Mount Nemrud. Walter de Gruyter, Boston/Berlin, ISBN 978-1-61451-713-9.

The composed Greek and Persian names of the deities are intentionally chosen by Antiochus, just like the mixed lineage of Persian-Achaemenid/Armenian, on the one hand, and Macedonian/Seleucid ancestors, on the other.

Nathanael J. Andrade (2013). Syrian Identity in the Greco-Roman World. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 73. ISBN 9781107012059.

….they [Kings of Commagene] claimed descent from an Armenian satrapal and royal family called the Orontids and, by extension, the Persian Achaemenids. They also framed themselves as legitimate monarchs by adopting, adapting, and interweaving idioms of Greek, Persian, Armenian, and Syro-Hittite origin. Antiochus especially did so. As king, he even wore both an Armenian tiara and (subsequently) a Greek diadem.

Greek, Persian, and Armenian ancestry[Synthesis of above quote provided on page 397]

Mack Chahin (2013). The Kingdom of Armenia: New Edition. Vol. 2. London and New York: Routledge. ISBN 9781136852503. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

He is best known from the great burial ground which he built on the summit of Nimrud Dagh embellished by giant marble statues of seated gods and heroes. Inscriptions discovered there opened up an important era of Armenian history since Ervand-Orontes I; showing also the Armenian-Achaemenid origin of Antiochus of Commagene himself

Google books link here :[3]

West, Martin (2015). Michael Stausberg (ed.). The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism. Germany: Wiley. p. 446. ISBN 9781118786277.

…family also produced the kings of several of the smaller Armenian kingdoms (Sophene, Commagene).

Antiochus was the son of a Greek mother and a Zoroastrian father of Armenian descent. He brought Greek and Persian deities together in one pantheon, represented in the colossal effigies on Mount Nemrut (Nemrud Dagı).

Christian Marek [in German] (2021). In the Land of a Thousand Gods: A History of Asia Minor in the Ancient World. Princeton and Oxford: Princeton University Press. p. 514. ISBN 9780691233659.

…epigraphic sources allows us insight into the syncretic religion of an Iranian-Armenian dynasty.[In reference to Antiochus and Nemrut]

TagaworShah (talk) 17:23, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More or less the same quotes, if not worse (you're literally interpretating wearing an Armenian tiara and adopting idioms from other cultures as = origin of said dynasty. this is concerning) - I have already made a detailed analysis/response to the sources you keep showing. Nothing wrong with the two new sources though. However, WP:UNDUE still comes to play. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: if they’re more or less the same quotes than please explain how they’re cherry picked or misinterpreted as they literally say Armenian ancestors and Armenian descent. And it isn’t undue weight when we have multiple high quality sources saying the same thing. You basically just confirmed that at least most of these reliable sources do say he has Armenian ancestry so per WP:NPOV that needs to be included. TagaworShah (talk) 18:04, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I already did, check my comment at DRN or even the Mount Nemrut talk page for that matter - still applies here. What about WP:UNDUE then? A dozen or so sources (including many of the very ones you insist on using) acknowledge a Persian-Greek background for the Orontids of Commagene. If we were to do what you suggest that would indeed violate WP:NPOV. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:26, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: Please provide these at least a dozen sources that deny Antiochus having Armenian ancestry. And a lot of the sources you provided arent giving a comprehensive analysis of his ancestry but rather just saying Greco-Iranian as a shorthand. For example, one of your main sources is Iranica, and you brought up the Mongol Ilkhanate, however when examining the Iranica pages for Ilkhanate Khans I see nothing to suggest they had Mongol Ancestry, Iranica, while reliable, is not that comprehensive when it comes to ancestry, it is a tertiary source after all. But even if the view that Antiochus had Armenian ancestry was in the minority, which I still hold that it isnt, it’s not like it is a fringe theory, there is significant scholarship backing it up and per WP:NPOV all significant minority views should be included in the article. So please provide your sources and any reasoning why the 7+ reliable sources I provided for you aren’t enough to source that claim; using WP guidelines of course. TagaworShah (talk) 18:52, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You have already said that, and you have already got a reply for that as well - I'm not interested in imitating the exact same conversation, I have other stuff to do as well. Quite ironic that you use the 'comprehensive analysis' argument yet you use the exact opposite info/sources in attempt to support your suggestions (Foltz, etc). If we were to follow that logic you would have zero sources to support you (which you almost already have). As for Iranica, I believe I already replied to that argument as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: And again you show how you are unable to provide sources to back up your claims. We are not repeating anything. I’ll make this really easy for you, can you prove that Antiochus having Armenian ancestry is not at least a significant minority view? If not, the information will be included in the article per WP:NPOV, it is well sourced. The Ilkhanate thing was pretty clear but again, the Encyclopedia Iranica articles on the rulers of the Ilkhanate don’t mention their Mongol ancestry so that demonstrates how Iranica is not always comprehensive when it comes to an individual’s heritage. TagaworShah (talk) 19:08, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, you are repeating yourself and making up your own theories regarding me, yawn. Looks like I have to help you find my previous replies to the exact same questions [4] [5]. Sorry, but that argument for Iranica made no sense, and is not really how sources how. Feel free to take it to WP:RSN though. Why don't you actually address my comment regarding how you cherrypicked and misinterpreted the sources? I even made a sandbox for it and whatnot. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: You are literally the one repeating yourself and refusing to have a mature discussion on the sources. Neither of those two arguments you just posted made any sense or stand up against wikipedia guidelines. Let’s break it down, you can’t provide any evidence that my sources are cherry-picked or unreliable so we have 7+ reliable scholarly sources that say Anthiochus has Armenian ancestry. You cannot just say oh the majority of sources disagree, your words don’t hold any weight, you have to actually PROVIDE THE SOURCES. But i’ll save you the time, per WP:NPOV all significant minority views should be included in the article, I’ve clearly proven that this view is significant among scholarly sources so there is not a single reason why it shouldn’t be included in the article, here we go by Wikipedia guidelines, follow them. Sorry, but a reliable tertiary source simply not mentioning the ancestry of an Individual when it has a history of not mentioning the verified ancestry of others, does not mean that Individual is not of the ancestry when we have multiple reliable sources saying they were. Was that clear enough? By any means, either you prove that Antiochus having Armenian ancestry is not a significant minority view or the information gets included in the article per wikipedia guidelines. I’m not repeating myself again. TagaworShah (talk) 19:30, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Neither of those two arguments you just posted made any sense or stand up against wikipedia guidelines." Yet the volunteer agreed with my statement in the same discussion which you also claimed to have proven something, yet your suggestion didn't get accepted [6]. I literally made a whole sandbox that shows you cherrypicked and misinterpretated the sources, which another editor mentioned as well. If you don't want to repeat yourself feel free to answer the several comments adressed to your cherrypicking and misinterpretation of sources before we go to the next part. I also don't understand why you still focus on Iranica, I really don't care, if you want to change the consensus on how it is viewed through personal conclusions this is not the place. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:40, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: Now you’re misinterpreting the outcome of the DRN, the volunteer explicitly said that it was because of the word “slabs” that my suggestion wasn’t accepted and to take my argument over here. She did also say that she sees nothing wrong with the sources saying Antiochus had Armenian ancestry. I literally changed my sources significantly since you made that sandbox but i’ll do a rebuttal to each of your points about my sources:

1. Foltz source: Nothing in WP guidelines saying that a reliable general history book about Iran can’t be used in conjunction with other secondary sources. 2. Elsner source: You said this one was good so moving on 3. De Gruyter source: You said it was cherry picked because Armenian royal family doesn’t mean Armenian ancestors, so I found you a direct quote that said he did have Armenian ancestors, what’s your argument now? 4. Andrade source: This is a new one that you didn’t comment one, it’s pretty straightforward; the quote above summarizes his ancestral situation and in the index he categorized that page as “Greek, Persian, and Armenian ancestry” 5. Chahin, again I see no objection 6. Wiley source, you said it was cherry picked because it only said Armenians royal family, so I got a different quote from a different scholar that literally says his father was of Armenian descent, what’s your argument now? 7. Marek, I don’t see any argument, they were talking about the Orontids that’s why they didn’t say anything about his maternal Greek lineage.

So where is the cherry-picking? As for Iranica, I never said it wasn’t reliable, but it is a tertiary source, check out WP:TERTIARY. TagaworShah (talk) 19:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aka, your suggestion wasn't accepted.
3. What is a 'De Gruyter source'? There is more than one source here in the De Gruyter. Do you mean Brijder? He says this as well; Admittedly the parallelism between the Greco-Iranian gods and the θεός Antiochus with his Greco-Iranian descent could be understood more directly, but this connotation was not really mediated by the texts, but primarily by the sculptural decoration.
4. Again, since when did Armenian tiara and adopting idioms from other cultures including Armenian = Armenian origin? This and the fact you took a vague mention of Greek, Persian, and Armenian ancestry bit from the index and not even the body of the source really shows the levels we're reaching. What the source actually says regarding his origins; Despite its marginal location between two empires, Antiochus stressed his kingdom’s centrality by expressing links to ancestral Greek and Persian monarchs, gods, and customs - He positioned himself as both descended and distinct from the Greeks and Persians, and he stressed that his “fatherland” was Commagene, whose female personification he eventually erected beside his Greek and Persian deities.
7. No it was talking about Antiochus. 'Dynast' is different from 'dynasty'. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:26, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: My suggestion wasn’t accepted for saying the SLABS didn’t show Armenian ancestry not that Antiochus didn’t have Armenian ancestry, don’t get it twisted, the volunteer simply refused to continue the discussion on Antiochus’ ancestry and said to bring it here, this dispute is still unresolved. 3. Yes i’m talking about the Brijder source. It clearly says he had Armenian ancestors, he was literally just saying Greco-Iranian for the sake of being concise; the quote says what it says and he even repeats it again: “By 'the heroic races' Antiochus means his Persian/Armenian and Macedonian/Seleucid forefathers” , try again. 4. “Comes from an Armenian royal and satrapal family” if he’s from an Armenian family he has Armenian ancestry and he confirmed that he meant Armenian ancestry so there is no argument. 7. Dyanst means someone who founded or is part of a dynasty, same difference. Any valid objections? TagaworShah (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So it seems we agree, great. 4. How is 'Armenian royal and satrapal family' = Armenian descent? It is clearly referring to the Orontids, a royal family who ruled Armenia. 7. Yes, so not the Orontids, which was my point. ”try again” Why are you so pressed, this must really mean something to you huh. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:06, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: And how exactly are we in agreement? For 4 it’s clearly referring to Armenian ancestry since he literally confirmed it in his index, it can’t be more explicit than that. And 7, his dyanst is still the Orontids, regardless, the source is still undoubtedly reliable so I don’t see the point you’re trying to make. Lastly, i’m not “pressed”(i’d prefer we use professional language not teenage slang though), i’m just here to better this encyclopedia and when the sources are explicitly saying something but an editor refuses to acknowledge it, that’s a problem that needs to be addressed. TagaworShah (talk) 21:15, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I may have believed that if you had not been hostile from the get-go towards your fellow Wikipedians [7] [8] - so much for using “professional language”. The fact that none of your suggestions have been accepted (including a failed DRN), yet you still believe that everyone besides you is wrong really says it all. Not to mention misinterpretation of sources to push an Armenian connection from the very start [9]. 4. Yet he made only mentions of Persian/Iranian and Greek origins in the body of the actual source itself, using the index is far fetched. 7. Feel free to read the previous comments again to understand.
All of your suggestions have been rejected by at least 4 experienced (no, this is not a dig at you, this has nothing to do with you) Wikipedians thus far. I think it's about high time you WP:DROPTHESTICK. Thus I will list the sources and be on my merry way. Unlike those very few sources you listed, these sources do not make passing, vague mentions. Hell, for every passing mention of the geographic notion of Armenia there are 30 detailed descriptions of Iranian/Greek origin, culture, language and religion. I could post even more detailed quotes but I'd rather not catch a copyvio case:
1 "This can be seen in post-Achaemenid Persian religion and royal identity among the Perso-Macedonian dynasties of the west, in particular, the Orontids’, Artaxiads’, - In addition, the onomasticon and eponymous foundations of the Orontids of Sophene foregrounded their Achaemenid and Orontid royal dynastic pretensions and Iranian cultural roots. / Alexander’s rapid advance through Anatolia into the core of the Achaemenid Empire spared many Persian satraps, leaving them in place. Some regions, including Cappadocia, Pontus, and Armenia, he bypassed entirely. Despite the Successors’ episodic attempts during the wars of the Successors to extirpate and replace them, these dynasts and their descendants took advantage of the fluid situation following Alexander’s death to reestablish power and even claim new territories. The most important of these postsatrapal dynasties were the Orontid dynasty of Armenia and Sophene (ca. fourth century–ca. second century BCE), / The Ariarathid kings of Cappadocia, like the Mithradatids and Orontids of Commagene, traced their lineage to one of the seven great aristocratic families of the Persian Empire and cultivated a genealogy that connected them to the Achaemenids. / Finally, in several key instances post-Achaemenid dynasts introduced or strengthened Iranian rituals and cultic identities in order to bolster the new prominence of their “neo-Persian” royal identities. Antiochus of Commagene’s cult reform and the Persian cultic protocol that Mithradates VI performed for Zeus Stratius present the clearest examples of this phenomenon. / Commagene’s most ambitious sovereign, Antiochus I of Commagene (69–34 BCE), understood it a political necessity to reinvigorate the Persian traditions of kingdom. / With the exception of Antiochus of Commagene and perhaps the Kushans, no Iranian dynasty instituted multiple cult installations throughout their kingdom" - The Iranian Expanse, Canepa
Also mentioned by Canepa in another work; "As the centrepiece of his efforts to foreground his dynastic roots, Antiochos I instituted a dynastic cult centred on a newly codified pantheon of Perso-Macedonian tutelary deities, which were worshipped at specially designed sanctuaries constructed across his kingdom" p. 86 Common Dwelling Place of all the Gods Commagene in its Local, Regional and Global Hellenistic Context
More: "Scholarship has often described Commagene as lying between ‘east’ and ‘west’, however, as this paper has emphasized, ‘east’ and ‘west’, ‘Greek’ and ‘Persian’ were not stable or monolithic cultural or political siloes. The period between the mid-3rd c and the mid-1st c BCE was the true crucible of Commagene’s emic Persian identity. The source of this new identity was the Orontid dynasty. The rulers of the independent kingdom of Commagene traced their ancestry to the Persian Orontid dynasty who ruled as satraps over Achaemenid Armenia" / "Similar to those of the Ariarathids of Cappadocia and Mithradatids of Pontos, the Orontids’ conjoined Perso-Macedonian lineages and traditions reflected the aspirations of ambitious sovereigns just as much as regional histories." - Common Dwelling Place of All the gods: Commagene in its Local, Regional and Global Hellenistic Context. Oriens et Occidens p. 80 & 95-96
2 "In the first century BC, Antiochos I, son of Mithradates Kallinikos and the Seleucid princess Laodike, ruled over the Iranian and Hellenistic kingdom of Commagene. It is Antiochos I who was mainly responsible for the establishment of an intriguing form of Greco-Iranian religious idiosyncrasy / The Commagenian kingdom, an Irano-Hellenistic polity" - p. 13 and 8, Shayegan, M. Rahim (2016). "The Arsacids and Commagene"
3 "and of a local king of Iranian origin, Mithradates Kallinikos." - The Letter of Mara bar Sarapion in Context: Proceedings of the Symposium Held at Utrecht University, 10-12 December 2009, ed.Annette Merz, Teun Tieleman, p. 68 - "Also ancestor reliefs are part of the architectural ensemble: by means of large stelae, Antiochos I presents members of the Seleucid and Macedonian royal house as his motherly ancestors—going back to Alexander the Great—while through his father’s line he retraces his genealogy to the great Persian King of Kings Dareios." -- The Letter of Mara bar Sarapion in Context: Proceedings of the Symposium Held at Utrecht University, 10-12 December 2009, ed.Annette Merz, Teun Tieleman, page 44."
4 "Unlike the Arsacids and Fratarakā, several western Iranian dynasties (Pontus, Cappadocia, Commagene)" / "where Avestan deities were explicitly syncretized with Greek ones to create a dynastic identity for a Macedonian-Iranian local ruler: Antiochos I of Commagene" / "But from the latter part of that century, Iranian rulers began to issue local coinages – the Arsacids of Parthia, the Fratarakā of Persis, the Mithradatids of Pontus, the Ariaratids of Cappadocia, the Artaxiads of Armenia, the Orontids of Commagene" / "The chief cultural effect of these political changes was the development of self-conscious Persianistic identities among the Iranian dynasties of the later Hellenistic period. We see this on the coins of the Arsacid rulers of Parthia and those of the Fratarakā of Persis. We see it too in the royal houses of Pontus and Commagene." - Strootman, Rolf (2020). "Hellenism and Persianism in Iran"
5 "The adoption of the Armenian tiara by Antiochos I of Commagene (and by Artavasdes II of Atropatene) illustrates that this iconography also has to be seen against the background of contemporary power struggles between the different Iranian dynasties – in this time of course heavily influenced by Roman presence." - p. 485 Christoph Michels: ‘Achaemenid’ and ‘Hellenistic’ Strands of Representation in the Minor Kingdoms of Asia Minor
6 "In the northern bloc, it looks as though the old Iranian dynasty of the Orontids may have survived the change from Achaemenid to Seleucid rule. There is little doubt from Antiochus' later handling of the Armenian region (Polyaenus, Strat. 4.17; Polyb. 8. 23) that the kingship was in the Seleucids' gift." - Armenia Oxford Classical Dictionary, Margaret Stephana Drower, Eric William Gray, Susan Mary Sherwin-White and Josef Wiesehöfer]
7 "ORONTIDS (Aram. ‘rwndkn; Arm. Eruandid or Yervanduni dynasty), members of a dynasty of Iranian origin who ruled Greater Armenia, Sophene, and Commagene (q.v.) during the Achaemenid and Hellenistic period (ca. 6th century-ca. early 2nd century BCE)." - Orontids, Iranica, by Margherita Facella, a specialist in Commagenian history
8 The complex comprised a vast tumulus (probably the royal burial-mound) flanked by two terraces for sculpture, each repeating the same row of colossal enthroned divinities (8–9 m. (26–9 ft.) high), among them Antiochus himself, and the same two series of inscribed relief-slabs portraying respectively his Persian and Macedonian ancestors - Spawforth, A. Nemrut Dağ. Oxford Classical Dictionary.
9 "The Commagenean kings claimed Persian links through the Armenian royal house, Macedonian links through Seleucid marriages and drew on both Iranian and Greek cultural traditions, including a combination of Iranian and Greek dynastic names (Antiochus, Samos, Mithridates)." - Hamish Cameron (2018). Oliver Hekster (ed.). Making Mesopotamia: Geography and Empire in a Romano-Iranian Borderland. p. 16-17
10 "Some Hellenistic or later Iranian kings even tried to produce dynastic links to the Persian royal house or aristocratic Iranian satrapal families (kings of Commagene, Pontus, Armenia, Parthia, etc.)." - p. 1660 A Companion to the Achaemenid Persian Empire, Bruno Jacobs, Robert Rollinger
11 "In this way, Antiochus adopted diverse idioms of imperial authority, stressed how his Persian and Greek lineage validated his rule, and embedded his legitimacy in his worshipping of gods originating from both east and west of the Euphrates. - These perspectives justify this chapter’s emphasis on the reign of Antiochus I of Commagene, who vaunted cultural hybridity and the interweaving of diverse ethnic lineages as the consummate expression of “pure” Commagenian culture. As his inscriptions indicate, he venerated ancestral Greek and Persian divinities because these gods authenticated his dynasty's rule over Commagene and its subjects." - p. 68, Andrade. Syrian Identity in the Greco-Roman World.
12 "His Iranian descent made him gravitate toward Parthia; he had friendly relations with Darius, the king of Media Atropatene, who seems to have assisted him against Pompey (Appian 106). - ANTIOCHUS OF COMMAGENE, Iranica, written by Iranologist G. Widengren
13 "The Commagene kings claimed to be descended from the Orontids, a powerful Iranian family that had ruled the area during the Achaemenid period." p. 23, The Middle East Under Rome, Maurice Sartre, Harvard University
14 "Tigran (Tigranes) II was the most distinguished member of the so-called Artašēsid/Artaxiad dynasty (see ARTAXIAS I), which has now been identified as a branch of the earlier Eruandid dynasty of Iranian origin attested as ruling in Armenia from at least the 5th century B.C.E," TIGRAN II, Iranica, written by the leading Armenian specialist Nina Garsoïan
15 "Commagene was the only one of these neo-Persian kingdoms whose royal family bore mainly Hellenistic names, despite their claims to Iranian descent... / Two other kingdoms, Cappadocia and Commagene, were ruled by the descendants of former Persian satraps who claimed descent from the Achaemenid kings and remained as pockets of Iranian culture within the Roman Empire." - p. 436 and 31, Rome in the East: The Transformation of an Empire, Routledge
16 "At the time, there existed several kingdoms ruled by Iranian dynasties in Western Asia. They were Media Atropatene, Armenia, Pontos and Kappadokia." - p. 38, Early Arsakid Parthia (ca. 250-165 B.C.): At the Crossroads of Iranian, Hellenistic, and Central Asian History
17 What the Bridjer source you used actually says about his descent and culture; "And the present author has presumed similar intentions, as far as the inscriptions lay stress on the Greco-Persian descent of the ruler presenting a parallelism with the syncretistic deities, whose names combine one or more Greek components with one Iranian. Antiochus who this way became the fourth Greco-Iranian god within the divine assembly may have been presented to the populace, which probably was largely of Iranian or Greek parentage, as an ideal exponent of this alliance. / Admittedly the parallelism between the Greco-Iranian gods and the θεός Antiochus with his Greco-Iranian descent could be understood more directly, but this connotation was not really mediated by the texts, but primarily by the sculptural decoration. / The Antiochian visual language is about the complexities of replication. To understand it, therefore, it is necessary to study the way that the meaning of the elements used changed over time, or, in other words, to look at their ‘cultural history’. What is it, then, that we call ‘Greek’ and ‘Persian’ (or ‘Iranian’) in describing the Antiochian’ visual language? A long argument on the meaning of Hellenism and Persianism could be summarised in two (general) conclusions. Hellenisation in the first century BCE Eastern Mediterranean was often actually Hellenism: a source of social power that should be understood as a choice to associate with civilisation and modernity. In the same time period Persianism was used to claim dynastic legitimacy." - p. 517 and 518 and 604 - Brijder, Herman A.G. (ed.) (2014), Nemrud Dağı
18 Nemrut Dağ "The mausoleum of Antiochus I (69–34 B.C.), who reigned over Commagene, a kingdom founded north of Syria and the Euphrates after the breakup of Alexander's empire, is one of the most ambitious constructions of the Hellenistic period. The syncretism of its pantheon, and the lineage of its kings, which can be traced back through two sets of legends, Greek and Persian, is evidence of the dual origin of this kingdom's culture." - UNESCO World Heritage Site
19 "The eponym's praenomen Orontes is as Iranian as the dynasty itself" - p. 278 Toumanoff, Cyril (1963). Studies in Christian Caucasian history. Washington D.C.: Georgetown University Press.
20 "The Orontid dynasty of Armenia (ca. 401-200), whose ruling house was of Achaemenid origin" - p. 37, Allsen, Thomas T. (2011). The Royal Hunt in Eurasian History. University of Pennsylvania Press.
21 "Like Pontos, the Orontid kings of Commagene celebrated their dual Persian and Macedonian roots. Antiochos I (69-34 B.C:), the main innovator in cult and artistic activity in the kingdom of Commagene (162 B.C.-A.D 17), engaged with this very ancient royal practise within the larger formal context of his deliberately 'hybrid' Hellenic and Iranian court. - p. 61, Of Rocks and Water: An Archaeology of Place, Ömür Harmanşah, Oxbow Books
22 "While the statues of the deities respresent a syncretism of Greek and Persian deities, the stelae emphasise Antiochus' ancestry from both the Persian kings as well as Alexander and his Hellenistic successors. Both dynastic genealogy and religion emphasise the hybrid Greco-Persian glocalisation in the kingdom of Commagene." - p. 312 Greeks and Barbarians, Kostas Vlassopoulos, Cambridge University Press
23 "Antiochus I of Commagene was ruling between 69 and 38 BC, perhaps longer. He was of mixed blood, part Greek, part Persian; his kingdom was Hellenized but retained some Persian elements. High in the mountains stand figures of Greek and Persian deities" - p. 170, Among the Gods: An Archaeological Exploration of Ancient Greek Religion, John Ferguson, Routledge
24 "The dynasty which ruled it was of Iranian, and professedly of Persian, origin, like the neighbouring houses of Cappadocia and Pontus." p. 258, The House of Seleucus, Cambridge University Press, Edwyn Robert Bevan
25 "It was the practice in the Hellenistic period for Iranian kings of territories that were formerly Achaemenid satrapies to trace their descent from old leading Persian families linked by ties of marriage to the Achaemenid dynasty, or to the Seven who had helped establish Darius' usurpation. This is true of the kings of Pontus and Cappadocia, and later those of Commagene." - p. 193, From Samarkhand to Sardis: A New Approach to the Seleucid Empire, University of California Press, Susan M. Sherwin-White, Amélie Kuhrt
Now let's take a look at the Bactrian (Iranian) origin Orontes, the eponymous founder of the Orontids;
1 At the end of the 5th century BCE the satrapy of Armenia (see ARMENIA and IRAN i. Armenia, Achaemenid Province) was ruled by Orontes (q.v.), son of the Bactrian nobleman Artasouras and son-in-law of the Persian Achaemenid king, Artaxerxes II (q.v.) Mnemon (see ORONTES no. 2). From this powerful man descended the other Orontes who ruled the country before and after the Macedonian conquest (see ORONTES nos. 3 and 4; Schottky, pp. 76-139). - Orontids, Iranica, by Margherita Facella, a specialist in Commagenian history
2 2. "A Bactrian, son of Artasouras/Artasyras (OGI no. 264. 4f.), satrap of Armenia under Artaxerxes II Mnemon (Xenophon, Anabasis 3.5.17; Pompeius Trogus, prolog. 10), who in 401 B.C.E. had given him his daughter Rhodogoune in marriage (Xenophon, Anabasis 2.4.8; 3.4.13; Plutarch, Artox. 27.7; OGI no. 391–2) and so obliged him to the royal house. In two inscriptions of king Antiochus I of Commagene (ca. 69–34 B.C.E.), to be found on his monument at Nemrut dağı (OGI no. 391–2), Orontes, called Aroandes (son of Artasouras and husband of Artaxerxes’s daughter Rhodogoune), is reckoned, among others, as an ancestor of the “Orontids” ruling over Commagene, who traced back their family to the great Achaemenid kings. According to Plutarch (Arat. 3.5) he resembled Alcmaeon, the son of Amphiaraus, in appearance." - Orontes, Iranica, written by the Iranologist Rüdiger Schmitt
3 "son of Artasyras, the "King's Eye", sometimes called "Orontes the Bactrian", because of his princely, Bactrian parentage" - p. 185 Mack Chahin (2013). The Kingdom of Armenia: New Edition
4 "After that they had to fight successively the troops of Orontes, the new Satrap of Armenia (son of Artasuras the Bactrian, the King's Eye or intelligence chief, and the King's son-in-law) - p. 354, Gershevitch, Ilya, ed. (1985). The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 2: The Median and Achaemenian periods.
While we're at it, lets see what the sources say about the gods a bit more, which you claimed to be Armenian as well (a few of the same sources are used here, this is just to beat the dead horse even further):
1 "It is Antiochos I who was mainly responsible for the establishment of an intriguing form of Greco-lranian religious idiosyncrasy." - p 13, Shayegan, M. Rahim (2016). "The Arsacids and Commagene"
2 "The rulers of Commagene, despite their Greek names, practised an Iranian dynastic cult that incorporated Ahuramazda, Mithras and Verethragna, equated with Zeus, Apollo-Helios-Hermes, and Heracles, respectively." p 436, Ball, Warwick (2002). Rome in the East: The Transformation of an Empire
3 "The most obvious example of this development is of course the iconographical and ideological program at Nemrut Dağı (first century BCE), where Avestan deities were explicitly syncretized with Greek ones to create a dynastic identity for a Macedonian-Iranian local ruler: Antiochos I of Commagene, who rather pretentiously claimed both the Seleucid and Achaemenid heritage, including the imperial title of Great King that was used by both dynasties..." p 214, Strootman, Rolf (2020). "Hellenism and Persianism in Iran"
4 "The richest materials for equations between Iranian and Greek divinites are the inscriptions from the royal cult at Commagene. Here we find three idenfications of Iranian divinities; Ahura Mazda and Zeus; Mithra and Apollo, Helios and Hermes; Verethraghna and Heracles and Ares." p 32, Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature
5 "The religious syncretism associated with the Commagenian dynasty, combining Greek and Iranian elements, is a phenomenon linked exclusively to king Antiochus I (c. 69–36 BCE)." - p 1, Commagenian, Greco-Iranian Religious Syncretism
6 "The consequences of these differences become obvious in the three Iranian gods— Oromasdes, Mithras, and Artagnes—who merged with the Greek gods in the theocrasies described above. - NEMRUD DAĞI
7 "As an instrumental part of this, Antiochus I instituted a dynastic cult centering on a newly introduced pantheon of Greco-Iranian tutelary deities, which were worshipped at specially designed sanctuaries constructed across his kingdom" p 202, The Iranian Expanse: Transforming Royal Identity Through Architecture, Landscape, and the Built Environment, 550 BCE–642 CE
Also mentioned by Canepa in another work; "As the centrepiece of his efforts to foreground his dynastic roots, Antiochos I instituted a dynastic cult centred on a newly codified pantheon of Perso-Macedonian tutelary deities, which were worshipped at specially designed sanctuaries constructed across his kingdom" p. 86 Common Dwelling Place of all the Gods Commagene in its Local, Regional and Global Hellenistic Context
8 "The doctrinal and ethical elements in the cult, which gave it this depth, appear, as we have seen, to be essentially Zoroastrian; and this points to the Orontids of Commagene having remained loyal to their ancestral faith (in its Zurvanite form) down to the time of Antiochus' father, Mithradates Kallinikos." ".....It was, presumably, through her that Antiochus learnt from boyhood to worship Greek gods as well as Iranian yazatas" - p 348, A History of Zoroastrianism, Zoroastrianism under Macedonian and Roman Rule
9 "To his son and successor Mithradates II he left a strong and well-prepared kingdom. Antiochus created an excessive ruler-cult and a Graeco-Persian religious syncretism which granted a place in the pantheon to him and secured his deification." Wiesehöfer, J. Antiochus (9), names of kings of Commagene. Oxford Classical Dictionary
10 "Nemrut Dağ (Mt. Nemrut), the highest mountain in Commagene, its peak—commanding spectacular views over SE Turkey—the site of a monumental hierothesion (mausoleum-cum-cult-centre) built c.40 BCE by the Commagenian king Antiochus (9) I; of interest for its grandiose divinizing (see ruler-cult, greek) of this Roman client king and for its mix of Greek and Persian imagery and religious ideas (see syncretism)." - Spawforth, A. Nemrut Dağ. Oxford Classical Dictionary.
11 Nemrut Dağ "The mausoleum of Antiochus I (69–34 B.C.), who reigned over Commagene, a kingdom founded north of Syria and the Euphrates after the breakup of Alexander's empire, is one of the most ambitious constructions of the Hellenistic period. The syncretism of its pantheon, and the lineage of its kings, which can be traced back through two sets of legends, Greek and Persian, is evidence of the dual origin of this kingdom's culture." - UNESCO World Heritage Site
12 "Following the dual tradition of the kingdom, the gods receive both Greek and Iranian names: Antiochus worships Zeus-Oromasdes, Apollo-Mithras-Helios-Hermes, Artagnes-Herakles-Ares, and finally the all-nourishing fatherland of Commagene. - ANTIOCHUS OF COMMAGENE, Iranica, written by Iranologist G. Widengren]
13 "The religious syncretism associated with the Commagenian dynasty, combining Greek and Iranian elements, is a phenomenon linked exclusively to king Antiochus I (c. 69–36 BCE). Whereas its Greek component reflected contemporary paradigms, the Iranian one was constructed by combining supposed tradition with elements drawn from contemporary religious practice / The combination of Greek and Iranian elements is manifest in other aspects as well. Greek was the chosen language of the inscriptions, but the clothing of the priest who performed the rites was Persian." - Jacobs, B. Commagenian, Greco-Iranian religious syncretism. Oxford Classical Dictionary.
Also mentioned by Bruno Jacobs in Iranica;
Antiochus’s inscriptions refer repeatedly to those who are contemplating the sculptures. Since these viewers are by necessity visitors to the sanctuary, it seems logical to assume that the sculptures were designed to be meaningful to those who were raised in the Greek or Iranian tradition and recognized the sculptures’ Greek or Iranian elements. / The combination of Greek and Iranian elements nonetheless reveals that the concept’s starting point was Greek and that the image of royal power was strongly influenced by the traditions of the Hellenistic monarchies. Yet the Iranian elements are more than “very superficial” additions, as suggested by K. Humann and O. Puchstein (1890, p. 340). On the contrary, their balance is the result of a remarkable sensitivity.
14 "A mixture of Iranian and Hellenistic traditions is noticeable in the art of Commagene in the first century BCE. The Commagenian rulers had Iranian and Greek names (Mithradates I Kallinikos and his son Antiochus I Theos) and worshipped gods with Zoroastrian / Iranian connections but with mixed Greek and Iranian names." - p. 15 The Age of the Parthians, Vesta Sarkhosh Curtis, Sarah Stewart, Bloomsbury Publishing
15 "The diffusion of a Greco-Persian artistic idiom and iconography is for the time being best known through the category of funeral monuments, which begin to show the intrusion of Persian rituals in what largely are tradtional Anatolian burial practises. This process continues in various forms in later ages, with a climax in the gigantic tumulus complex of Antiochus I of Commagene." - p. 233, The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume 4
How can a family be part of Iranian/Greek cultural traditions, have and claim Iranian/Greek lineage, worship Iranian/Greek gods, speak and have Iranian/Greek names, use Iranian/Greek architecture but yet still be Armenian kings and worship Armenian gods? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: The vast majority of those sources can’t even be used per WP:SYNTHESIS, a source talking about the Orontid dynasty being of Iranian origin is not appropriate here especially the one that isn’t even about Commagene. All the sources must be explicitly about the ancestry of ANTIOCHUS himself. I’m addition, a lot of these sources are talking about cultural traditions and practices not ancestry. At this point it’s pure WP:OR, “ How can a family be part of Iranian/Greek cultural traditions, have and claim Iranian/Greek lineage, worship Iranian/Greek gods, speak and have Iranian/Greek names, use Iranian/Greek architecture but yet still be Armenian kings and worship Armenian gods?” Because he literally has Armenian ancestry per 7 reliable sources, this isn’t about culture, this isn’t about gods, this is about ancestry. Looking at your sources, only about 5 directly mention the ancestry of Antiochus, and again you haven’t provided any rationale on why my sources don’t satisfy at least a significant minority view. This is not the DRN conversation, this is a different conversation between you and me, so i suggest you drop the superiority complex, we are all equal here. Filter out your sources to only those that explicitly mention the ANCESTRY, not culture nor traditions, but ancestors of ANTIOCHUS. I don’t want this to end up at the DRN again but it might need to, you still can’t give proper reasoning within the guidelines of Wikipedia why my sources don’t provide at the very least a significant minority view. TagaworShah (talk) 02:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So the Orontids being routinely called Persian/Iranian/Greek/Macedonian, having their lineage/blood/roots etc etc has nothing to do with their ancestry? Who is making up these custom rules? Lol, even some of your sources don't do that, I guess those rules don't apply to you? I believe the next step is reporting you to WP:ANI if you continue this pattern. And no such thing as those '7' sources you speak of. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran: For a source to be used about the ancestry of Antiochus, it needs actually be about the ancestry of Antiochus, not a source talking about the Orontids in relation to the Artaxiad dyansty. That would be WP:SYNTHESIS and claiming that people talking about Greek and Persian culture and religion indicate ancestry is OR and that doesn’t negate claims in the same book that he had Armenian ancestors. At this point you’re just gaming the system in order to block sourced information from entering the article. Go ahead and report me with the understanding that your own behavior will come into question, I did nothing wrong and it is so disheartening that you still continue to refuse to have an equal and open conversation about the sources themselves, always trying to threaten and intimidate me instead of giving any valid explanation why these sources don’t account for at the very least a significant minority view. TagaworShah (talk) 15:38, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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