Talk:Cappadocian Greeks

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Untitled[edit]

This article seems to be the expanded duplicate of the article Karamanlides. But I don’t like merge proposals and I prefer to warn the editors instead. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article covers all Greeks of Cappadocia whether Greek or Turkish speaking (this includes the Karamanlides), and their history in Cappadocia whereas the Karamanlides article, only covers the solely Turkish-speaking Greeks of Cappadocia and does not include Greek-speaking Greeks of Cappadocia, for that reason this article shouldn't be merged with the Karamanlides article. Zorlusert (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance of Manuel Robbins?[edit]

See talk page of Bronze Age collapse:

The relevance of Manuel Robbins is in question.
See the talk page.
Thank you. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 17:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers in 15th century[edit]

According to Official Ottoman documents, in 1910 21.92% of Anatolian population was Chritian. According to Ecumenical Patriarchate statistics from 1912, proportion of Christians is even bigger, 24.73%.I highly doubt that is possible that share of Christian increased more than twice during five centuries of Mulim rule. --Dalibor Đurić (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient origins[edit]

The current "Early migrations" section somehow manages to synthesize several sources (footnotes 7-13) which all explicitly say that there were not any Greeks in central Asia Minor in the Mycenaean period to say the opposite. These sources say that "few traces" of the Mycenaeans were found (pots are items of trade...); that there were Greeks in Miletus (on the coast) in 1200 BC or so; that the coastal regions (Ionia, Aeolis, etc.) were settled from 1000-550 BC. But no source mentions Greek settlements in inner Asia Minor (i.e., Cappadocia) until the Hellenistic period, when the Seleucids start installing Macedonians/Greeks as judges, administrators, and the like. It seems to me therefore that the whole passage from "The earliest Greek presence..." up to "trade merchandise through the Anatolian highlands, to and from Cappadocia, Syria and other Eastern regions." can be deleted. --Macrakis (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Greeks[edit]

The term "ethnic Greeks" was used several times in the article, in different senses. In the early period, the article seems to use "ethnic Greek" to mean "biological descendant of Greek colonists" (as opposed to the previous inhabitants who where Hellenized), while in the later period, it seems to mean "Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian" (as opposed to Armenians and Muslims) and even later, just "Orthodox Christian" (including non-Greek speakers like Karamanlides). Besides the ambiguity/polysemy of the word, it is fraught with modern ideological baggage which is best avoided. Moreover, we don't know much about the importance of these distinctions. In the pre-Christian period, was there a well-defined 'caste' of descendants of Greek colonists (possible, but I don't know of any evidence for it). In the Christian period, was it enough to be Orthodox Christian to be considered an "ethnic Greek", or did you also have to speak Greek as your home language, or have no known non-Greek ancestry? And of course the term "ethnic Greek" is a complete anachronism, since έθνος meant something like 'barbarian tribe' and Έλλην meant 'pagan' by this period.

I have tried to reword using better terminology, but I'm sure it can be improved further. --Macrakis (talk) 22:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Ethnic Greeks," in a genetic sense, is not a useful term in this article, if it is meant to denote a genetic clustering of modern Cappadocian Greeks with European Greeks. Numerous population genetics studies have shown Central Anatolian populations (including also Armenians and Turks) to cluster closer to one another than to populations outside Anatolia (i.e. Cappadocian Greeks are genetically Anatolian, like most Turks and Armenians, before they are 'genetically Aegean/European Greek,' however one wants to 'define' that.) The problem is in finding a word to encompass the identity of all Cappadocian Greeks. 'Ethnic Greek' isn't right in a modern genetic sense, and as you point out is an anachronism when employed in a more ancient use, but neither is "Greek speaker" correct in lieu of the Karamanlides. It seems wrong to define Cappadocian Greeks religiously, however, since this would exclude the late-medieval Cappadocian Greek speaking Muslims, whose existence is the reason we have our first attestation of the Cappadocian Greek dialect (in a few of the poems of Rumi and Sultan Walid). Piledhighandeep (talk) 02:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, the article makes no mention of genetics and so any arguments based on genetics are irrelevant. Moreover, ethnicity and genetics have nothing to with each other. Ethnicity is a social construct, genetics is not. As far as genetics goes, genetic variation occurs in clines, meaning populations are most closely related to their closest neighbors, and nothing more. These genetic "categories" ("Aegean/European Greek", Anatolian) have no scientific basis and are reminiscent of the 19th century anthropological "types" ("Dinaric", "Alpine", etc...). There is no such thing as "genetically anatolian", nor have I ever come across any of these "numerous studies" that involve Cappadocian Greeks. Ethnicity is primarily a matter of self-identification and perception by others. If these people identified as "Romioi" and were perceived as such by others, then that is sufficient to refer to them as "ethnic Greeks". Athenean (talk) 05:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As you like, however, ethnicity is sometimes construed as relating to descent, not just self-identity, and perception by others (and self-identity) are sometimes just wrong, such as early modern perceptions that "gypsies" had originated in Egypt (genetic studies, and previous linguistic analyses show an Indian origin), so I just added to user Macrakis' criticism of the term "ethnic Greek" by pointing out that in a genetic sense the Cappadocian Greeks have been found to cluster more closely with other Anatolians (presumably Hellenized descendants of speakers of Anatolian languages). Genetic variation does not always follow geographic clines. There are many examples, Basques are one of the most famous. Genetic categories have a very clear scientific basis in terms of genetic clustering and admixture analysis. This is 21st century research, not 19th century skull measuring. Very often clusters do not exist, however, which is I think your point. Often there is more within group variation than between groups (such is the case for Turks and Armenians), meaning the groupings are not really relevant genetic categories. Sometimes, as with the Basque cluster, the cluster is distinct and a label could be applied. "Romioi" cannot be equivalent to "ethnic Greek," since we know that some Christian Romans in Anatolia spoke non-Greek Indo-European languages until the 5th century. Was the Anatolian emperor Zeno "Romioi"? Was he considered "ethnic Greek" at the time? Piledhighandeep (talk) 05:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree the English word "Greeks," with all the contemporary connotations it has, is the best one. They were Greek-speaking and part of the common Hellenistic and later Greek-Byzantine Orthodox culture for most of their history. I just think "ethnic Greeks" is over emphasizing a point that is complicated, and perhaps implying more descent than is warranted. In a world of only ethnic Greeks and Turks, what happened to Midas' Phrygians? Are there no descendants of this Indo-European group? Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We are in agreement then to use "Greeks" instead of "ethnic Greeks". The title of the article is after all Cappadocian Greeks, not "Orthodox Christians of Cappadocia". Athenean (talk) 06:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The three Hierarchs[edit]

The article say in this time:

"In the early centuries of the Common Era Cappadocia produced three prominent Greek patristic figures, known as the three hierarchs. They were Basil the Great (c. 330-79), Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia, Gregory of Nazianzus (c.330-c.389 AD) (later known as Saint Gregory of Nazian) and Gregory of Nyssa (died c. 394)."

That is not correct. The source (Bury, John Bagnell (1967). The Cambridge medieval history, Volume 9, Part 2. University Press. p. 213. OCLC 25352555.) write:

"The three great Cappadocian Fathers, called by the Greeks 'the three hierarchs ', belong to the Alexandrian school of thought. They are Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia (c. 330-79); Gregory of Nazianzus, a writer of great sensibility with a turn for poetry, the great ‘Theologian’ (as he is called by later writers), for a short time Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 379-c. 390); and Gregory of Nyssa (died c. 394), brother of Basil the Great and Bishop of the small town of Nyssa, a profound thinker and versatile writer."

"The three great Cappadocian Fathers" is correct, but "the three hierarchs" is a mistake. "The three hierarchs" is a orthodox memorial day at January 30th for Basilius the Great, Gregor the Theologian (the Great of Nazianus) and Johannes Chrysostomos.

Better is following:

"In the early centuries of the Common Era Cappadocia produced three prominent Greek patristic figures, known as the three great Cappadocian Fathers. They were Basil the Great (c. 330-79), Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia, Gregory of Nazianzus (c.330-c.389 AD) (later known as Saint Gregory of Nazian) and Gregory of Nyssa (died c. 394)."

Greatings --Methodios (talk) 07:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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How were the Kings of Cappadocia "Greeks"?[edit]

@Khirurg: Where does it state that they were ethnically Greek? The Kingdom of Cappadocia was founded by an Iranian, not a Greek. All subsequent Ariarathid kings were his descendants. This is well established. Including Ariarathes V. Even though the sources make no mention of them being Greek, the article bluntly labels Ariarathes V of Cappadocia as a "Greek king", and makes it seem as if the Kingdom of Cappadocia was a "Greek kingdom". This is incorrect per WP:VER and WP:RS.

A cursory look;

  • "Ariarathes: ancestral name of the Hellenistic kings of Cappadocia in Asia Minor. They were an Iranian family claiming descent from Cyrus the Great, or one of the seven Persians who slew the Pseudo-Smerdis." -- McGing, B.C. (2012). Hornblower, Simon; Spawforth, Antony; Eidinow, Esther, eds. The Oxford Classical Dictionary (4 ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 151.
  • "(...) Hellenistic-era Iranian kingdom (...) But all in all, Cappadocia remained an Iranian kingdom, one which developed from an Achaemenid satrapy." -- Weiskopf, Michael (1990). "CAPPADOCIA". Encyclopaedia Iranica, Vol. IV, Fasc. 7-8. pp. 780–786.
  • "As in Pontus the ruling family was of Iranian descent." -- McGing, Brian (1986). The Foreign Policy of Mithridates VI Eupator, King of Pontus. BRILL. p. 72.

- LouisAragon (talk) 00:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Because we have sources that say they were [1]. High quality sources that say, for example, "He was Greek by descent". Sources which you removed unilaterally, without proper explanation, all the while claiming that "not a single RS says they were Greeks" [2]. You can't just remove reliable sources like that, and then say, "not a single RS calls them Greek". Your edit is baffling. Khirurg (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Khirurg: Greek descent =/= Greek origin. According to the reliable sources, Ariarathes V was a direct descendant of the Iranian founder of the kingdom. The Kings of Cappadocia were certainly Hellenized and definitely later gained Greek blood on the maternal line (due to intermarriages), but they were not Greeks i.e. of Greek origin, in the strictest sense of the word. The content might be valuable to show the history of Greek blood in Cappadocia, but the caption on the image right next to it (accompanying the text) literally calls Ariarathes V a "Greek king", which is verifiably wrong. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Greek descent =/= Greek origin"??? Are you kidding me here? I'm not interested in semantic games. The sources are clear and explicit. You removed them with absolutely no justification. No way. Khirurg (talk) 01:05, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The text/sources can stay as its valuable to the history of Greeks in Cappadocia. I already tried to hint on that in my previous response. On a second thought, removing them was not a proper call. My issue is about the image caption right next to it. None of the sources call Ariarathes V a Greek king, yet the caption on the image right next to the text precisely labels him as such. The caption of the image (Ariarathes V of Cappadocia) needs to be tweaked, per the reliable sources. Pinging some others; @Cplakidas:, @Kansas Bear:, @PericlesofAthens: - LouisAragon (talk) 01:50, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Right now the image caption reads -- "Greek Kings of Cappadocia. (left) Ariarathes V of Cappadocia (ca. 163-130 BC) who is considered to have been the greatest king of Cappadocia and was predominantly Greek by descent. (right) Archelaus of Cappadocia (36 BC – 17 AD) was the last king of Cappadocia and was of Greek descent."
It should be reworded to something like -- "Kings of Cappadocia. (left) Ariarathes V of Cappadocia (ca. 163-130 BC) who is considered to have been the greatest king of Cappadocia and was predominantly Greek by descent. (right) Archelaus of Cappadocia (36 BC – 17 AD) was the last king of Cappadocia and was of Greek origin."
Thoughts? - LouisAragon (talk) 01:50, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure that's fine. For the record, it was the massive removal of sources that I so strongly objected to. Good sources are hard to find, and I am opposed to removing them as long as they're on-topic. Khirurg (talk) 01:52, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No worries man. I know you meant well. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:31, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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