Talk:College of William & Mary

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Cscr-former.svg College of William & Mary is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
September 26, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted
WikiProject Universities (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Universities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of universities and colleges on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Virginia (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Virginia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Virginia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Washington?[edit]

Why doesn't the intro list G Washington as educated at W&M? Wasn't for University education, but certainly relevant, no? -174.99.111.102 (talk) 21:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Based on the wording of the intro, I agree. He was educated by W&M. Jcbarr (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Search[edit]

If you search William and Mary into the wikipedia search, it takes you to a small, uncited article about King William and Queen mary. However, any search in a major search engine (such as Google) has the College of William and Mary as the top 6 search results - leading me to strongly believe that most people searching William and Mary in Wikipedia are actually intending to go to the the article "College of William and Mary"

Could we have the search William and Mary yield the College of William and Mary page? I'm fairly certain anyone looking for King William and Queen Mary would go to the disambiguation page. Thoughts about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xrx2007 (talkcontribs) 07:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone else think this article should be broken up into 2 articles?[edit]

I say break it into the "History of William and Mary" and "Modern University" I think it is entirely too long and also gives way more info (including details some would call boring) than most are looking for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.92.225 (talk) 01:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think it should be broken up. Most people are intending to read up on the modern aspects of the school, not the 20 or so paragraphs about historical founding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xrx2007 (talkcontribs) 07:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is it still officially called the "College of William & Mary"?[edit]

Something happened during the effort to resurrect the College from its state of bankruptcy that caused it to be decreed that from thenceforth William & Mary would be officially called the College of William & Mary, although it has in fact attained university status. Could someone possibly research and add to the Wiki article the facts of the interesting story behind the requirement that the official title of the school would be that of "College"?

jem 18:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC) jem

No, it has nothing to do with bankruptcy. Simply put, because in the 1693 charter the school is referred to as the "College," that is the name that has endured despite the school's achievement of being the first to achieve university status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.30.8 (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's just tradition. There are other universities that prefer to continue to call themselves colleges, Dartmouth College being the most conspicuous examples. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The charter explicitly says that the school in perpetuity be known by the name "The College of William and Mary in Virginia". It's not just tradition, it's actually a requirement on the part of the school in order to maintain the validity of the current charter. —Peco! Peco!TALK 23:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

well alright[edit]

Im glad u guys noticed that fun comes to die thing, I don't go there but, trying to make SOME positive contribs to wikipdia :)

well alright[edit]

Im glad u guys noticed that fun comes to die thing, I don't go there but, trying to make SOME positive contribs to wikipdia :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.207.101 (talk) 05:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This is far too extensive...this should be placed somewhere else as it distracts from the main article...

This isn't that lengthy and is reasonably kept there I think...

I agree...can someone split this section?[edit]

I concur...could someone split this somehow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Higherededitor2 (talkcontribs) 12:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

the random editor man[edit]

Im glad u guys noticed that fun comes to die thing, I don't go there but, trying to make SOME positive contribs to wikipdia :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.207.101 (talk) 05:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Year of founding[edit]

This used to be a point of contention with regard to the University of Pennsylvania, which—shortened and non-neutral version—changed its date of founding from 1740 rather than 1749 in the late 1800s, which not incidentally had the effect of making it older than Princeton (1746). The neutral thing to do is to give the founding date stated by the university itself, with any needed explanations in a footnote, for several reasons:

  • The university's self-reported date is, as far as I can tell invariably the date that is given by other reference books and encyclopedias.
  • It is easily referenced to a source and potentially stable. If we present Penn's self-reported date, well, everyone can agree that the University of Pennsylvania says it was founded in 1740. If we try to second-guess the institutions and report what Wikipedia editors judge to be the "real" founding dates, then Penn will edit-war between 1740 and 1749 forever... and W&M will edit-war between "1693" and "1693, 1888" forever.
  • The reason founding dates are important, and why universities try to push them back as far as possible, is that they govern the order in which university delegations march in academic processions and are generally a point of institution pride.
  • I put in an email query to someone at Princeton as to where Penn marches in academic processions hosted by Princeton, and got a reply that hosts invariably accept whatever year is stated by the participating institutions. If universities do this, so should we.

So, I'm leaving the single date 1693 in the summary box, because it is what William and Mary reports, and pushing the details into a footnote where they can easily be found by anyone wondering what the little superscript is about. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

P. S. Interesting questions of institutional continuity pop up whenever the history of almost any venerable university is examined in great detail. They tend to be like the straight razor that has been in the family for six generations. "Really? The very same razor?" "Yes, and it's so well made that in all that time it's only needed to have three new blades and two new handles." Dpbsmith (talk) 01:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Nichol[edit]

A lot of negative information on President Nichol has been dumped in to the leadership section. I don't think this meets with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. I think it's fair to discuss the Wren/Millington Cross issue and any controversy Nichol has created, but I think this section could be better written. The accusation that the ABA threatened to remove University of Colorado-Law's accreditation after Nichol's tenure there seems like dredged up smearing. The threat is related to the quality of the building facilities and is still being made 10 years later, so I don't think it's fair to blame Nichol for this, and the wording hear certainly is not worded fairly. I don't know anything about ratings drops at UNC-Law or UC-Law after Nichol's tenure at each school and the citation link is only for current rankings. Finally, the issue of the Sex Show also falsely implicates Nichol. He did not organize the show, and he is on record as opposing it. The current wording in this section is misleading. I know Nichol has stirred a great deal of controversy recently, but I don't think this article should be used to spread half-truths that smear him. I'll start cleaning this up soon.--Bkwillwm 03:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the Nichol stuff. I agree with the NPOV concerns voiced above, as well as the concerns regarding the sufficiency of the cited sources. Moreover, while this stuff might be appropriate for Nichol's page (I have no idea on that, as I have no idea how accurate, etc. this stuff is), the W&M page would be swamped and bloated if everything as significant as these criticisms was included. This stuff, true or false, is simply not important enough to be included on the institutional page for W&M. The only reason I can see for including it is to attempt to espouse a position critical of Nichols. Cka3n 06:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Too late gn, Onestop53 and Hawaiibound: I have repeatedly asked you all to address the Nichol criticisms on here, and I have explained why I do not believe they are appropriate to include in the W&M article. None of you seem to edit anything on Wikipedia except to criticize Mr. Nichol (more or less). If your criticisms are important enough to include, surely they are important enough to explain. I again extend the invitation to explain why they should be included.Cka3n 03:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
(I have, fwiw, placed invitations to this discussion on each user's talk page, although they seem to want to delete them.Cka3n 03:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
As a temporary compromise, I drafted this:
On July 1, 2005, Gene R. Nichol (formerly Dean and Burton Craige Professor of the Law School of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) was sworn in as the College's 26th President, succeeding Timothy J. Sullivan. Nichol's tenure has encountered controversy over his decision to remove the Millington Cross from the College's Wren Chapel as well as the "Sex Workers Art Show."
Cka3n 03:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think above is fine except it needs to be made clear that the Nichol didn't have much to do with the "Sex Workers Art Show" other than not banning it.--Bkwillwm 01:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
How about:
On July 1, 2005, Gene R. Nichol (formerly Dean and Burton Craige Professor of the Law School of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) was sworn in as the College's 26th President, succeeding Timothy J. Sullivan. Nichol's tenure has encountered controversy over his decision to remove the Millington Cross from the College's Wren Chapel as well as the return to William & Mary of "Sex Workers Art Show," which had first visited in the last year of President Sullivan's tenure.
Cka3n 01:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
If the president is legally unable to bar a group's activities from campus, then he didn't really make a decision did he? Unless I hear otherwise, I'm giong to remove the reference to the sex workers art show, as it is sematically incorrect. --Gurami 18:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Although I strongly agree with you on principle, the act of not barring the show was enough to warrant the BoV being demanded to appear before the state legislature to explain themselves, only days before the decision was made not to renew his contract. In other words, the show had nothing whatsoever to do with the duties of Nichol as president, but may very well have led to his termination. --Orang55 (talk) 18:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
All the info on President Nichol is completely slanderous and acerbically biased. And quoting a fox news story as a "neutral" point of view? Outrageous. And the "Trivia" that Gene Nichol sleeps with students??? That's abhorrent. -Zach W&M Class of '10

I just wanted to point out that I made a complete renovation of Gene Nichol's page about two months ago. I removed all slanderous phrases/words, made it NPOV, added the Gateway W&M section and also added a couple pictures and referenced everything with viable sources. As the page stands now, it meets Wikipedia standards. -Jrcla2 21:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Song question[edit]

An anon added information to the article on the 1987 film Dirty Dancing, that the song that is sung in the film there, is the same as the Alma Mater song for the College of William and Mary. There's no reference, but I guess it's plausible, so I'm trying to AGF and leave it for now. Does anyone have a source which confirms this? Thanks, Elonka 17:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

  • The tune used for the Alma Mater is a very *very* common tune associated with many alma maters of both highschools and colleges. The song itself also appears at the end of the movie Shag, on a side note. I personally don't see why it's worth noting in the article at all. It's like saying that the colors on a sprite can are green and gold so they must be related to William and Mary somehow.Lemon-lime 14:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be split, simply because the article is getting too long.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrygao (talkcontribs) 21:37, 14 August 2007

Stupid image edit war[edit]

Folks, placing the image on the left breaks the layout and screws up the entire first section on some browsers in some resolutions. "It looks better to me" doesn't trump "It breaks it for others." I fail to understand the selfish position that intentionally screws up the article for others simply to please aesthetic tastes.

Continuing to move the image in the face of this evidence that it screws up the article is vandalism. --ElKevbo 11:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The image shows the screen definitely broken for that one case. I like it better on the right in any case. TallMagic 15:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: The image should not be in the introduction; it would probably be better in Academics or Student life. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 19:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Toohool fixed the particular problem that caused the page layout to get hosed up. However, I still disagree with placing the image in the lead, particularly on the left-side and at the very top. The MOS Guide to Layout notes that "it is considered poor layout practice to place images at the same height on both the left and right side of the screen [as that] not only...unnecessarily squeeze[s] text, but this might also cause images to overlap text due to interferences." Placing the image at the same level as the infobox causes the exact same problem. Further, "placing an image to the left of a header, a list, or the Table of Contents is also frowned upon." Finally, I dislike beginning an article written in a left-to-right language with an image as I contend that it is disruptive to the reader. It's a lovely photo and I definitely agree that it should be in the article but just not in the the top left corner at the very beginning of the article.

Note, however, that these are arguable points with which reasonable people may disagree. They differ significantly from the previous issue that just broke the layout for some readers. --ElKevbo 01:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

These are the reasons that I originally stated that I like the picture better on the right. TallMagic 03:25, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the image should be moved. It's visually disruptive in the lead, and, for at least one reader, it's screwing up the whole layout of the article. Move it to the body text. Esrever 22:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Richard Bland[edit]

I guess most people are nto aware of it, but William and Mary is the leader of Richard Bland College. Why is that not mentioned? At least a link would be nice.

Thank you for your suggestion regarding The College of William & Mary. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Epthorn 20:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Richard Bland, ODU, VCU, CNU, and probably some others all started as branch campuses of W&M. Most of them have become independent since they were established. Information on W&M's history of sending off state-U system shoots like this has appeared in the article in the past, but it seems to have been removed.

--Dartmothian (talk) 21:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

"Southern Ivy"?[edit]

Does it kind of cheapen the article to say that the school is "also considered a Southern Ivy," when that phrase is uncommon if not a recent invention? "Public Ivy" makes some sense as a category because the Ivies are private, but "Southern Ivy" is silly. There are no Ivies south of Princeton, even though there could be. Just because the phrase appears in another Wikipedia article does not mean it is widely used or understood. --Dartmothian (talk) 21:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

first university?[edit]

While it technically became America's first university in 1779,

The University of Pennsylvania claims to be America's first university, dating to the foundation of its medical school in 1765. I've heard Penn more frequently described as such than William and Mary, certainly. john k (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Since no one has responded, I am going to edit in line with your comment. See [1]. Cka3n (talk) 23:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This conversation has been repeated over and over again, guys. The fact is that by using various definitions of what it means to be a University, there are at least 4 universities in the united states that make the claim as the first University. See [First university in the United States]. Also, it's important to note that the frequency people refer to an institution by one thing or another has nothing to do with the factual accuracy of such statements. We can find verifiable sources that support both sides claims. If it's not satisfactory to let each page make the claim at the same time, we should specify in each article that the title is disputed. IE: "The College of William and Mary is one of few claimants to to the title of First University in the United States of America."  —Peco! Peco!TALK 01:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I have added language back in about the claim.--Bkwillwm (talk) 01:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Peripheral articles[edit]

A large number of W&M-related articles have cropped up, most of which fail to make any citations or establish notability. Most of these seem like they should be either deleted or merged back into the original article.

Examples include:

If we want to make a dedicated W&M wiki, most of these articles would have a place. However, most of these topics only deserve a brief mention in the main W&M article. We could also consider merging all athletic topics into a single article, separate from the main one. Comments? --Orang55 (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Erasing these articles and molding them into the main W&M article is a bad idea. It would completely junk up the College's page because of the fact that these are periphery articles. Also, only a couple of these articles have "cropped up" recently...the reason they seem new is because there was never a W&M template before that made it easy to access all of them from one spot. I can't really comment on the notability issue because you didn't mention any specific articles. Which one(s) exactly do you believe to not have notability? I ask this because I've engaged in debates over most of these articles' notability and argued them to be worthy of their own page. -Jrcla2 (talk) 18:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Motto[edit]

This article lists the motto of the College as "Hark Upon the Gale." What evidence supports this claim? It was a phrase often used by former President Nichol, but I have never seen it acknowledged by the College as its motto. Given the College's age if it had a motto, I suspect it would be in Latin. Without evidence supporting the factual accuracy of the motto it should be removed. Brutus9 (talk) 07:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Promotional edits by W&M students[edit]

Several promotional edits have been made magnifying (providing undue emphasis) regarding W&M's notability, expanding it to an entire section. Unsurprisingly, most of the edits have been made by W&M students, including (as justification) that "the pages for other universities say a similar thing in their intro's" (of the public Ivys only true for UVA), and irrelevant. The W&M topic gives more weight to this than any topic that I've been reading. Perhaps some edits to restore NPOV are overdue. Tedickey (talk) 21:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable alumni section[edit]

Does anyone else think that it seems a little unnecessary to have a paragraph that long in the Notable alumni section? After all, there's a link to the full article at the onset of the section, and it seems like it's just taking up space and junking the W&M article by even bothering to list some of the notables. -Jrcla2 (talk)(contribs) 19:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless anyone objects, I'm going to eliminate the disorganized jumble of random notable alums and leave that section of the W&M article as just the think to the Main article of notables. -Jrcla2 (talk)(contribs) 19:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul[edit]

I just spent the last few hours removing cancerous booster and peacocked non-neutral language from the article, adding essential descriptive information from the Department of Education, Carnegie Foundation, Common Data Set, Faculty Handbook, etc. and reorganizing the structure to comply with WP:UNIGUIDE. The most drastic cuts from an information perspective appear to be in the history section, but rest assured this excellent but very long section was retained in its entirety by moving it to History of the College of William & Mary. However, the article still needs substantial improvement:

  • Populating the expanding the essential sections on Campus and Faculty/research
    • Describe the campus: geographical context, major buildings, residence life, laboratories/research centers, construction, sustainability, etc.
    • Faculty/research: Summary of major awards/recognition, major projects or centers, annual research funding, number of patents, etc.
  • Post-1930 history needs much expansion: impact of World War II, post-war growth, racial integration, Vietnam-era activism/protests, changing mission & student demographics in the 1980s & 90s, etc.
  • Consistent citation template usage
  • Expanding the lead to fully summarize the article rather than emphasizing only history, rankings, etc.
  • Repetition & compartmentalization: there is mention of notable alumni in the history that may be notable, but alumni, history, etc. also keep cropping up in unrelated sections as well. While context is important, try not to unnecessarily repeat information

The quality of the History section leads me to believe that with some concerted effort, this article has the potential to be promoted to GA or higher. Madcoverboy (talk) 22:16, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Student demographics[edit]

I reverted an IP editor's removal of the student demographics table. The student demographics information comes from the Common Data Set and is a simple conversion from raw numbers to percentages. The individual components do not total to 100% because race and ethnicity are overlapping and not mutually exclusive concepts (e.g., one can be black hispanic, asian-european, etc.) and respondents may double report or not report at all. Madcoverboy (talk) 07:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

POV-based rankings[edit]

anon-IPs have the advantage here, citing from 2010 in 2009, and referring to data not cited in the 2009 rankings. Using facts might give the same numbers, but so far, it's POV-based rather than factual. Tedickey (talk) 22:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The given online references do not state that they're dated a year in advance (perhaps anon-IPs have access to reliable sources which they're inclined to provide - lacking that, it's all presenting opinion in lieu of facts). Tedickey (talk) 23:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore, US News does not provide a listing for public-only or private-only schools. Due to the obscure computations which they use here, there's no guarantee that subsetting the data will lead to the same result as if they'd computed based on the subsets alone. Tedickey (talk) 23:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

WRONG grasshopper!! -- Indeed, U.S. News does have a separate ranking and listing for public national universities. See for yourself [2] and work on those research skills before making such confident (yet totally incorrect) statements. Thanks.

Your source wasn't available two years ago; its injection into the discussion is in line with your other remarks TEDickey (talk) 22:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Should we include something about the MAcc (accounting) recent rankings? http://mason.wm.edu/news/2009/par_ranking15dec09.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by AtlanticVerde (talkcontribs) 16:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's ranked 33 among National Universities. ElKevbo (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Campus Photos[edit]

This page is surprisingly void of campus photos compared with other university pages. I move to add 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.174.60.16 (talk) 20:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Motto (revisited)[edit]

I was wondering if anyone knows if W&M actually has a motto? I've searched extensively online but have found nothing. It surprises me a little that a school as old and prestigious as this does not have one, but stranger things have happened. Can anyone verify if one exists or not? Jrcla2 talk 21:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit]

I need help with the [[File:WM Tribe logo.svg]]. I accidentally uploaded the new WM logo over the pre-existing file, but when I re-uploaded the old logo, something didn't translate right and now it won't show up. I'm not very good with pictures on Wikipedia so help would be appreciated. Jrcla2 (talk) 22:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Marilyn Kaemmerle[edit]

The paragraph regarding Marilyn Kaemmerle links to a wiki, which makes statements which are not well-sourced. If it's as notable as the claims made here and in the wiki, some work needs to be done to fill in the gaps. TEDickey (talk) 13:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Today's installment garbles the quote from Time, and introduces an unsourced claim regarding support for freedom of the press. TEDickey (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 18:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


The College of William & MaryCollege of William & Mary – As a W&M alumnus, I raise WP:THE in support of this move. Note that two of the most prominent US universities who like to insist on "The" being part of their name—Ohio State University and George Washington University—omit it in their article titles. Sure, it's part of the official name, but the same could be said about Ohio State and GWU. And this article is never going to be at The College of William & Mary in Virginia. Note also that WP:THE#Universities recommends omission when in doubt. See also recent successful move request at Oldham College. --BDD (talk) 22:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

and/&[edit]

This article should find a more consistent orthography--either "William & Mary" or "William and Mary" throughout. -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

That consistency is not found in the WP:RS dealing with this topic TEDickey (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

War of the Roses[edit]

I think it should be noted that this college is referred to in the movie "The War of the Roses". Their maid gets accepted to the college. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.254.227 (talk) 21:24, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Song[edit]

I took out the song as I don't think it is encyclopedic; i.e. I don't think quoting it in full adds anything to the reader's understanding of the subject. --John (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Notable psychology MA alums[edit]

I removed the recently added list of psychology MA alumni from the main W&M page. These names are very specialized and don't seem within the scope of the main W&M article. Honestly, I don't think most of them meet Wikipedia's notability policies. In any case, if they are more developed, I think they would be better suited to the List of College of William & Mary alumni page under the academics section. Wikieditor06 (talk) 18:57, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

ranking of American Studies[edit]

The edit tagged was apparently made by someone unfamiliar with statistical terminology (or they did not read the FAQ on that page). The numbers are a range, given for 95% confidence that the "real" ranking would be within the low-to-high values. Thus, where "1" and "4" are given, they're equally likely (arguably "2" or "3" would be more likely than either of these, but only by making assumptions about the data). Keeping the discussion down to Wikipedia levels, citing the actual numbers would be a waste of time; all that one can actually say is that the program was highly ranked according to the given source (no numbers at all). TEDickey (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the debate deals more with terminology. The previous author, yes, was not familiar with the statistical range offered. At the same time, the language is more clear, in my opinion, as the previous author originally stated. The program is ranked on a scale, but the program is also ranked in a statistical range that does provide at least *some* credence that it could fall within the upper portion of ranking even if that credence is small. As a result, the statement that the program has been ranked "as high as 1st" and "as high as 5th" are sufficient, in my opinion, for Wikipedian standards than dealing with the large statistical examination. While I cannot verify all the other ranking systems used, I think that they also have some level of statistical leeway that is not usually reflected in Wikipedian standards.

I also think that without numbers the program's strength is not adequately reflected. Yes, it is ranked high, but it is also not ranked higher than other schools like Harvard. On the other hand, it is not ranked as low as schools like University of Hawaii. Again, I believe that the statement "as high as" represents enough statistical doubt to be accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.114.107 (talk) 23:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

...and selecting the highest number is misleading the reader, by misrepresenting what the source says. No improvement is found by reintroducing the problematic edits TEDickey (talk) 23:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, I believe the statement "as high as" is adequate in reflecting the statistical range. I am open to new wording to represent this range but do not believe it is necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.114.107 (talk) 04:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

"As low as" would be equally factual; however I pointed out that it is entirely likely that neither is correct because a range is given. (Before arguing about the meaning of terminology and deciding to choose an interpretation, take care to understand the terms you're using). Likewise, the comment about "cannot verify" was a throwaway remark. TEDickey (talk) 23:18, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand the terms. I still think it is worth discussing what is a better terminology that demonstrates both the strength of the program and the statistical range. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.152.35 (talk) 13:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Back to the top of the thread - when either end of the range is equally likely, selecting the "nice" one is misleading TEDickey (talk) 01:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand, but what is the proposed solution? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.114.107 (talk) 10:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Back to the top - I recommended not digging into the numbers, but noting that it was rated highly. The interested reader would visit the source and get what they can there (the FAQ goes into more depth than would be appropriate for this topic). Recall that Wikipedia is not a repository of knowledge; it is instead a guide to further reading (and if it cannot summarize the sources without diverging from them, it's best to just refer the reader to the sources) TEDickey (talk) 00:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


Use of "America" instead of "United States"[edit]

The article states that "the College is the second oldest college in America," which would lead most readers to believe that W&M (and Harvard) are the oldest colleges in North and South America. This isn't true --there are older colleges and universities in Mexico. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation ) Peezy1001 (talk) 01:22, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

It's a trivial change. Just do it. ElKevbo (talk) 03:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC)