Talk:Dance of the Seven Veils

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Untitled[edit]

Opera is lovely. But when I am looking for information on the DANCE of the seven veils, I'd like to know more about the history of the dance.LeaP65.190.162.33 16:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC) _ _ I added in January this sentence (as the end of a 'graph that i at least throroughly reworked, and that appears to be primarily original to me):[reply]

At one extreme, the 2004 production starring Karita Mattila at the Metropolitan Opera made her surname the accepted New York term for changing the color of pubic hair to blonde.

that User:Drini has described as "weird and unrelated", and removed.
_ _ It has withstood scrutiny for nearly six months, so this is hardly the kind of slam-dunk reversion that often takes place in the first hour after an edit!
_ _ The choice of the word "weird" is quite offensive, especially in light of its vagueness: it amounts to a personal attack rather than a reasoned critique. What's weird about the sentence, that i used encyclopedic language in place of "...started a blonde-pussy-hair craze in New York by showing her bush in the role"? Does this editor find this degree of nudity too "weird" for acknowledgement, or too "weird" for high art, or too "weird" for a bible story? It ain't too "weird" for reality, and what we do here is cover reality.
_ _ The claim "unrelated" is likewise utterly unfounded: this critic is quite satisfied with the preceding sentence (also writ by me in the same edit),

The visual content of that scene (about seven minutes in length with standard tempi) has varied greatly depending on the esthetic notions of the stage director, choreographer, and soprano, and on the choreographic skills and body shape of that singer.

I think i know how to write a paragraph: what could be better related than giving a specific example? The 'graph is out of balance (bcz there are no other examples), but the solution to that is more examples (with the retention of this until there's one demonstrating that the scale goes further in that direction). Removing the only example renders the preceding sentence so vague as to justify shortening it to "as always in opera, every production is different".
--Jerzy·t 03:19, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

I'll step in here and say I could not understand any relation the added sentence had with the material, much less the relevance. I couldn't even tell who the phrase was referring to, as it is not written very clearly. As far as I could tell it looked like pure vandalism until someone told me you generally make good contributions, Jerzy. That you do still doesn't establish that this factoid is important enough to be added into the article, but I'll let you guys figure that out. One thing is for sure it needs to be written more clearly to tell what it refers to, and why it is relevant. - Taxman Talk 20:29, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
No it's not a personal attack, it's weird in the sentence that a casual reader cannot understand the relationship with the topic discussed. If it's not unrelated, the phrasing does not make clear the relation ship. I insist it's still an awkard sentence, not because wwhat it refers to, since it doesn't fit into the entry. I don't intend to offend you, I just point that a casual visitor is confused by the phrasing (I'm still confused as how this example clarifies the preceeding sentence), so I'll remove it again. Please dont' take matters ina personal way. drini ☎ 20:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's just the wording that is confusing. SO Mattila became slang for dying blonde the pussy. I gather from your previous post (NOT from the sentence in the page) that it was because she showed hers in the play and I guess it was dyed... am I right? Maybe I can just rewrite the sentence so the connection becomes less confusing in the article. drini ☎ 20:12, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Jerzy, I also stumbled at that example and had to read it several times to understand its relevance. I think it's a little elliptically put, even though the vocabulary used is as you say a fine example of the encyclopedic. Would you consider expanding it a little, and making the point more explicit? Bishonen | talk 20:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

_ _ Well, all this is helpful to me. I'm not sure i am the best one to work out the wording, and maybe i was trying too hard to be ency'c! I don't recall whether my info was specific or whether i just inferred the obvious, that as a Finn she is naturally blonde, and that the dye jobs are by way of, shall we say, visual imitation rather than literal emulation.
_ _ Also my picture was (again pretty much presuming) along the line of the early adopters coming in, in the week following the production's premier, saying "Ya know, Matilla really struck my guy as hot, can you dye me?" and the operators having their eyes open for a new trend and either answering the second inquiry with "Of course, we've already been doing Matillas", or posting a sign like "Is a Matilla your look?"
_ _ Lemme see if can source it, tho, rather than my continuing to count on "enough eyeballs" to get the details perfect, now that more specificity is being requested. Clearly this one didn't make the normal threshold of "good enuf to be perfected by successive approximations", and i don't at all mind it sitting here while we try to get it to that point.
_ _ Thanks to all who responded.
--Jerzy·t 04:29, 2005 July 21 (UTC)

I think the confusion arises because the dance itself is never described. From reading Salome (opera) it's implied that the dance involves the gradual removal of veils, but this article doesn't say. - mako 05:28, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I propose the following - someone can show their approval by replacing the Mattila sentence with this. I saw the opera at Santa Fe last week and witnessed a less explicit example of the dance.
In one interpretation, the dance is a kind of stylized striptease in which Salome removes a succession of veils, laying or throwing them on the king and queen, potentially until she is nude. At one extreme, the 2004 production starring Karita Mattila at the Metropolitan Opera featured frontal nudity: the dance made her surname the accepted New York term for changing the color of pubic hair to blonde because of the visual focus of the scene. A less explicit example is the current production at the Santa Fe Opera, in which Janice Watson finishes with her back to the audience, immediately covered in a robe by the king.
I usually do math articles, so I don't know if this can be improved. That's why it's not in the article. Orthografer 17:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article: "Wilde"s stage directions state that the end of the dance, Salome lies naked at Herod"s feet [...]". I took a look at Wilde's play, and could not find that reference. The only stage direction that I see in the play is: [Salome danse la danse des sept voiles.] Can somebody tell me where I can find these stage directions? Sander123 19:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I left it in for a few weeks, but now I have removed it. As said, in the play there is no such reference that I can find.

Unreferenced template[edit]

I have added the {{unreferenced}} template to this article for obvious reasons; there are absolutely no citations. -- Nonstopdrivel 15:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Especially Flavius Josephus as source needs work. It may be a confoundation between the "FJ testimony" and the "Christian legend" bits, but didn't FJ's story rather go like this:
John publicly lambasting Antipas for adultery - Antipas imprisoning John - Antipas on his own accord getting rid of yet another vocal troublemaker
To lay the blame on Salome fits with the trend in mid-early Christianity (c. mid-2nd cent. AD onwards) to absolve the powers-that-were (compare Pilate vs Jews in the Passover story). Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think a lot of this detail should be in other articles. This page should generally stick to the dance and how the term is used as an expression in western culture. -Verdatum (talk) 17:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have also added the {{originalresearch}} template to the list section. If it is not referenced soon, I will mercilessly delete it. --Nonstopdrivel 01:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vague opener[edit]

The opening sentence is extremely vague. Can the editor of that verbiage clarify what is meant by "several parts of Western culture." Methinks I smell weasel words. --Nonstopdrivel 01:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anna Pavlova[edit]

The Russian dancer Anna pavlova once danced a routine. There is a famous painting of her in Glasgow I believe. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nga.gov.au/Exhibition/Edwardians/Images/MED/126209.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nga.gov.au/Exhibition/Edwardians/Default.cfm%3FMnuID%3D6&h=300&w=222&sz=23&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=OM9Ex3buF8EcJM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3Danna%2Bpavlova%2Bpainting%2Bglasgow%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den (83.13.39.98 (talk) 22:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

What is the dance, then?[edit]

This article leaves me with an idea of where the dance has been mentioned, but no idea of what it actually is. Is it just stripping? If so, then why does it have its own article? 70.181.43.249 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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