Talk:House of Savoy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Albania (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon House of Savoy is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Italy (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject France (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Croatia (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon House of Savoy is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the quality and coverage of articles related to Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Spain (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Unsorted text[edit]

Could we please get a translation of the Latin mottos? user:Montrealais


Moved this text from Savoy:

Savoy is the name of a western European noble house (Real Casa di Savoia) that ruled the Duchy of Savoy, and in practicePiedmont from the 15th century (and held lands in the region for nearly 400 years before that).

From 1714 they acquired the title of King of Sardinia and worked their way through a succession of larger states until becoming the kings of unified Italy in 1861.

The House ceased to be royal when Italy became a republic in 1946.
See Kings of Savoy

Is this strictly true? There are plenty of out-of-work monarchs whose kingdoms have become republics, but who are still considered "royal". --Michael K. Smith 18:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The House has two main knight orders:


The names could do with translating into English. The pages they link to all have them in English and, for the earlier ones, if English-speakers ever come across the names in another language, it's more likely to be French than Italian. Hedgehog

A question[edit]

Who elevated Amadeus VIII from Count to Duke of Savoy ?

-- user:Siyac 14:32, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor, in 1416. Choess 13:06, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Armenia[edit]

Do they still have the title of King of Armenia? The titles for Vittorio Amedeo III had Cyprus and Jerusalem but not Armenia. EDIT: according to http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalstyle.htm they do--Eupator 20:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Italian names[edit]

Why are all these rulers given with their Italian names? These are not the most commonly used names in English, and the House of Savoy wasn't even Italian speaking until the late 19th century at earliest. I think we should give the anglicized forms. john k 23:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I will put the Italian name in parenthesis followed by the common English names. -- Note: The language of the rulers and the legislation of the House of Savoy was French (not Italian) until the Risorgimento in 1861. The majority of the historical legislative documents in the Archivo di Stato in Turin are written in French. And of course, most of the rulers from the House of Savoy are buried at Hautecombe Abbey on Bourget Lake in Savoie, France, including most who died in the 20th century. Some of the earlier rulers are buried in Bourg-en-Bresse, Ain, France. Charvex 10:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I equaly agree, and when was Savoy Italian speaking anyway? Matthieu 16:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Eugene of Savoy- where does he fit in?[edit]

Where does Eugene of Savoy fit in? He is arguably the most famous member of the House of Savoy, as four battleships from four different countries have been named after him.RSido 03:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Please re-read the article about Eugene of Savoy. He was a member of the Austrian Hapsburgs; a great-grandson of Charles-Emmanuel I, Duke of Savoy. Charvex 10:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Eugene of Savoy was a scion of a cadet branch (Savoy-Carignano). He was not a member of the Austrian Hapsburgs, but entered their service after being denied the chance to serve in France.MarkVolundNYC (talk) 07:10, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Biased Editing[edit]

User:Shardan has been consistently removing and replacing the English (and standard French names) of the counts, dukes, and kings of the House of Savoy with Italian names in this article. (His most recent edit to which I am now referring was dated 21 April 2007.)

First, this is the English version of Wikipedia; it is not the Italian version. The English names should stand. These are the names found in most English books on this subject. Second, the actual names given-to and used-by the members of the House of Savoy to 1860 were French. (These French names are also commonly found in many excellent English languages sources. I will cite the Cambridge Studies in Italian History and Culture, (Cambridge University Press, UK) as only one source of many.) The language of historical legal documents was Latin until March 1540, when they were changed to French, and continued to be in French until 1860; however after the defeat of Napoléon I in 1815 Latin was reintroduced for vital records and Occitan-Provençal dialects of Italian began to appear in military and records. (Note: I have worked extensively with these early records in Archivio di Stato in Turin, Italy; and the Archives départementales in both Chambéry and Annecy, France.)

User:Shardan also has done petty acts, like removed a photo of the Hautecombe Abbey, where many of the members of the House of Savoy and their wives are entombed because it is in France. (I hesitate to add a photo of Brou in Bourg-en-Bresse where others are buried because he will remove it.) I believe he is doing this based on very misguided Italian patriotism; the House of Savoy is the founding royal family of modern Italy. However, denying historical fact is simply bias.

Before User:Shardan's recent edit, the names of rulers of the House of Savoy in this article were in Engliah, French, and Italian. This was a very fair compromise to having names only in one language. - - Certainly, having the names only in Italian is completely wrong. - - I do not want to get into an edit war with this user. I hope that an administrator, or another editor, will revert his recent edits. Charvex 09:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

What nonsense! --Shardan (talk) 20:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence[edit]

Almost implies that a Savoyard ruled Italy from the 1000s till 1946, and that's just not even close to true. Between 1000 and 1100 the "government" of north Italy was just the collapsing influence of the Holy Roman Empire, right? And then there were a few hundred years of the Tower Wars and the Guelph and Ghibbeline Wars to follow that? There weren't any large (say, 20% of modern Italy) states then, and certainly no King of Italy. And I'm sure people are familiar with the Italian Renaissance period, when the fluctuating fates of the Papacy, Florence, Venice, Pisa, Genoa, Naples and Milan ruled most of Italy, and Savoy area was mostly (forgive me) staging ground for French attacks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.196.9 (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, probably so. I will therefore modify that sentence to make it more clear. Thanks for the comment. History2007 (talk) 02:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

"longest surviving royal house in the world"?[edit]

"At the time that it ended in 1946, the House of Savoy was the longest surviving royal house in the world" I believe the Imperial House of Japan should be the one to hold that distinction, even excluding the mythical rulers from the earliest era. Snowybeagle (talk) 03:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

if you have a reference for that fact, we can change it in 9 seconds flat. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 03:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Try List of Emperors of Japan and the references cited at the bottom. Excluding the legendary emperors, the present house can trace back its roots to the Asuka period. Also Aston, William George. (1896. Nihongi: Chronicles of Japan from the Earliest Times to A.D. 697. London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner. [reprinted by Tuttle Publishing, Tokyo, 2007. 10-ISBN 0-8048-0984-4; 13-ISBN 978-0-8048-0984-9. Snowybeagle (talk) 02:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You may well be right. Are these all the "same family" i.e. trace their bloodline to the earliest one as a "House"? If so, please change it, but still keep the old reference and say that is not true. It is no big deal anyway as to who stole most from which populace for the longest... History2007 (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, they are in the "same family" according to "official history". Bloodline wise, there is no way to tell, but all Tennos were technically from the same family, claims to descend from the Sun Goddess notwithstanding. Perhaps the reference to House of Savoy can be changed to confine it to Europe only. The reference cited actually mentioned "In 1946, when the Kingdom of Italy came to an end, the House of Savoy was the world's oldest reigning dynasty". (emphasis in bold mine.) This created two issues. Technically, the Imperial House of Japan did not actually rule for centuries during the Bakufu era but remained as figureheads. But the Kingdom of Italy under the Savoy dynasty too was a constitutional monarchy, and had been since its founding in 1861. So it all depends on what qualifies as "reigning dynasty". Snowybeagle (talk) 05:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You seem to know more about this. Do what you think is right. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 06:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Does the site actually meet WP:RS. It seems like a hobby site, and although it should be OK for non-controversial facts (especially which don't compare it to other entities) it may not quite cut it for the claim that they outlasted the Japanese. JASpencer (talk) 07:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Naming[edit]

Currently, the dukes of Savoy are named "Name Ordinal, Duke of Savoy". The counts from Thomas on now follow this style. I began moving the earlier counts (which follow the formula "Name Ordinal of Savoy") to this style also, but now I am not sure how this should really go. Either all the counts follow the same style as the dukes, or they all follow the simpler style of the earliest counts. I would like to know what others prefer before I move them in line with one another. Srnec (talk) 05:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The House of Savoy and France[edit]

  • It seems a paradox, but thanks to the role this house of French origin, able to build a wall for centuries against expansionism of France, a substantial part of the North-western Italy of today (namely Piedmont and Liguria) belongs to the Italian Republic.--Deguef (talk) 07:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The House of Savoy today[edit]

I am the farthest descendant to the House of Savoy, it should be noted that there is no recorded evidence that my family was exiled to argentina in 1940. We were the only family to have been sent to the America's during Benito Mussolini's power. And so, was my family, the Machado-Ciccarelli exiled to Argentina, we have no direct lineage however may never return to Italy. Our full name is, Machado-Ciccarelli di Savoia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CapFfOREVER (talkcontribs) 18:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for leaving this note. It sounds as though the information you're trying to add may not be appropriate for Wikipedia, if it's based entirely on family tradition and not on published records. Even though we're the encyclopedia anyone can edit, we try to make sure we're not the first people to publish new information. We don't have the expertise to judge whether a piece of historical information like that is credible. Therefore, we don't include such information in our articles unless a reliable source (like a scholarly journal or an academic book) has reproduced that information. That tells us that academics find the information credible, so we can trust it, too. So unless you have some additional published information, you should probably find something else to edit that interests you. I welcome comment from others reading the talk page here. Choess (talk) 22:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi thanks for getting back, i have numerous records of my families travel to Argentina during exile. Where should i publish these records. Possibly create an html and tag it to the provided citation list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CapFfOREVER (talkcontribs) 22:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Names[edit]

Since Emanuele Filiberto in 1540 declared Italian the official language of the duchy the official nemes of these characters were Italian. It sounds odd to read them in English-French... ?

The discussion above only shows the ignorance of the posters/editors: one pearl "the Occitan dialect of Piedmont"?! Please just belt up. The dialect of Piedmont has nothing to do with Occitan: indeed the Piedmontese and the Occitan speakers of the Piedmontese valleys cannot even understand one another.

Everybody knows that the Savoia spoke the dialect of Turin as their first language. Of course as other royal or noble families of those times they were also fluent in French and used that language while conversing with their foreign peers. But at home they spoke Piedmontese with their officials and other nobles. It is contrary to the usage of an encyclopedia to write in French the name of rulers of an Italian state or even of the kings of Italy!Aldrasto11 (talk) 16:35, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you source this? As this is an English language article and (at least into the Nineteenth Century) the French names were the ones that the Savoyards tend to be referred to in English language sources at the time and in current English language history books I'd prefer the French names - although I'm happy to be proven wrong or pointed to a policy that says that I'm being unreasonable. JASpencer (talk) 16:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the attention. It is odd, or, perhaps better, very much understandable that English language sources use French naming: I shall not elaborate on the point. However as I said above these characters were for more than 4 centuries heads of an Italian state and later kings of Italy since 1861. Thence Italian names should be used at least since Emanuele Filiberto on: he was the duke who moved the capital from Chamberi to Turin, devised/established the Italian strategy of the house and made Italian the official language of his state and of course of the University of Turin.

It is also untrue, though part of a widespread, commonplace platitude abroad, that Italian was not in use in Italy til 1861. This assertion is only a lie invented by detractors of Italian Risorgimento and by others that for any reason do not like Italian unity, i.e. harbour antiitalian feelings. To disprove it one may just wish to point to the fact that teaching in Italian schools and universities was delivered in Italian, and that dissertations, magazines, newspapers literary works and books were mostly written in Italian all over present day Italy and beyond (e. g. Nice-Nizza etc.). If nobody spoke Italian how and why could it be so?Aldrasto11 (talk) 09:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

This isn't about the teaching of Italian or the feelings about the Risorgimento, but about how the Savoyards were referred to in English language sources. JASpencer (talk) 10:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)