Talk:Issy Smith

"first living Jewish recipient of the Victoria Cross"

This claim is not properly cited and as a major claim in a FA article needs a proper reference, not an author's note. --Dweller (talk) 10:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I took it out. Also, were his parents Jewish? I assume so, since he was Jewish and so few people convert to Judaism (a non-proselytizing religion). I'd like to say "born to Jewish parents". --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Before adding the cn tag to TFA, I looked at all the sources in the article as it was when it passed FA. Not many of them were ever online, and of those, few still exist. However, one goodie from Australia mentioned his parents were not just Jewish, but orthodox, so there'd be no "maternal line" arguments about him being Jewish. --Dweller (talk) 15:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Appalling lack regarding decorations

On the main page, where this article is currently featured, it is mentioned that he not only received high decorations from the UK, but also from France and Russia. That is very remarkable, and I am certain that I'm not the only one whose curiosity was piqued by this. But to my dismay there was nothing - absolutely nothing - about these decorations, beyond the simple claim that he got them. There is not even a reference for these two decorations. (There is a footnote next to the statement, but that is not a reference.) How could this have been overlooked in the featured article process? — Sebastian 19:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

"Diggerhistory" is used as a reference on this page; unfortunately, "diggerhistory" is notorious for just ripping off other websites in lieu of doing actual research, so I would be wary of the veracity of this article as well. It seems diggerhistory is now offline in any event: http://www.anzacwebsites.com/general/diggerhistory.htm 139.48.25.60 (talk) 20:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Read the adb source. And leave off the histrionics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.253.149.208 (talk) 22:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to ADB. Reference for St. George's Cross and some pertinent text from ADB has been inserted. (You can do that, too - that's why Wikipedia is for all to edit.) The ADB also mentions the Croix de Guerre, but nothing about the palm. While that makes it a bit better, the article remains underwhelming; there are only the few words "rescuing Russian soldiers in Mesopotamia" for the former, and nothing for the latter - for an important part of what made the man noteworthy. — Sebastian 01:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Fortunately, the notorious Diggerhistory has fallen into disuse, following the death of the "webmaster" Ted Harris. He was an appalling man, and the site was a thorn in the side. His article on Issy was, indeed, ripped off. When I offered him a correction, I received a stream of abusive and racist emails. Fortunately, this will not recur. The ADB were much more polite and receptive, and amended their records accordingly. Hengistmate (talk) 11:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is this featured again?

I don't see any discussion for featuring this article again. In addition to the fact that some of the the main points that make the man interesting are not covered, the article has other shortcomings, such as:

1. a TLDR section on WWI that includes a paragraph on his life past WWI,
2. the text on the garden party, which is long on links to articles completely unrelated to him,
3. ripping apart the good and the bad in his life post WWI with the "Legacy" headline.
4. a lack of dates.
5. explanation of context, such as why was Maurice wearing his medals in the picture; and when was that?

How was this decided? — Sebastian 01:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do you say "featured again"? I'd be very surprised if it had been featured before. --Dweller (talk) 08:59, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see! It was decided in 2007, so I assumed it was featured some time then. It didn't occur to me that there would be such a long gap in between. — Sebastian 20:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Nationality

I don't believe it is appropriate simply call him "British-Australian". Smith's Polish Jewish lineage makes his nationality more complex; this should at least be mentioned in the lead. Thanks--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 22:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC))

And French too via his parents, though I wonder if he ever was officially recognized as such. -- Brianhe (talk) 00:03, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Since Nationality does not seem to be defined in Wikipedia, it is in the eye of the beholder. It could mean place of birth, place of residence, place of citizenship or the nationally of the force in which he was serving. While he spent more than half his life in Australia I would suggest Issy Smith VC (c. 18 September 1890 – 11 September 1940) was a Jewish British Army recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest award of the British honours system. Anthony Staunton (talk) 22:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

References

Mesopotamia & Russian Medal

Issy Smith's Order of St. George was not awarded for "rescuing Russian soldiers in Mesopotamia". It was awarded, along with the Croix de Guerre, just a few days after his Victoria Cross, on the 26th April 1915. It was customary for other Allied governments to make reciprocal awards. Source: The London Gazette, Issue 29272. As the article states, the Manchesters sailed from Marseilles for Basra on December 10th, 1915. The only contact between British and Russian troops was at Diyala, and the Manchesters weren't there.

168 Issy Smith does not appear on the role of recipents of the Durbar medal (whereas my grandfather does).

The whole history of Issy Smith is uncertain. This is from British Army Service Records 1760-1915:

First name(s): Issy Last name: SMITH Calculated year of birth: 1887 Parish of birth: Town of birth: London County of birth: Middlesex Age at attestation: 17 years 8 months Attestation date: 21 April 1904 Attestation corps: 6TH MANC REGT Attestation soldier number: 9946

As you can see, his birthplace is given as East London, and his battalion as 6th Manchesters. Other sources say that he enlisted at Ashton-under-Lyne, and that he transferred to Mesopotamia in September 1916.

I doubt we shall ever know the true story, but the part about the Russian medal is definitely wrong. Hengistmate (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

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The real story about Issy Smith

I am a descendant of Issy. I'm currently writing his biography which I expect to publish next year when it is completed. After pouring over family records, interviewing his son and following extensive research, in most cases of official records, I have been able to uncover previously unknown details about him as well as confirm that a lot of information circulating is incorrect. I would like to adjust this when I have completed the research. It is great to come across this page and see the interest about him, and fantastic that his story has appeared as a feature article. He hasn't been forgotten.LAMK2020 (talk) 07:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm very pleased to see this. I exchanged emails with Issy's son a few years ago. He didn't have much information other than the accepted story. I also made enquiries at the Portuguese synagogue in Manchester but drew a blank, and couldn't find any trace of the street where Issy is supposed to have lived. If you have new information, then that's excellent. As you can see from the above, there are many contradictions in this story. Something that intrigues me is how a ten-year-old boy can sail as a stowaway to a foreign country (if that's what he did), and conduct an existence there. Where did he live? Did he, and if so how did he, go to school? Could he read and write? How did he eat? I look forward to reading your account. Good luck. Hengistmate (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Hengismate - hoping you are still on air after two years! Please see my note below regarding the book that is now released. I would be pleased to talk to you further. Kind regards LAMK2020 (talk) 02:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

There are many contradictions and it has been a painstaking process to sort out the fact from fiction. He was trying to reach his brothers in London. He stowed away at age 11, actually twice - he was found by one of the crew on his first attempt, at Port Said on the Suez Canal (it is possible he did not know where he was going!). He stayed with the Harbour Master for five days before a suitable ship was available to take him home. He then wasted no time in boarding a new ship on which he made it successfully to London. Although he spoke three languages, English was not one of them then, yet he was able to find his brothers. The rest will be in the story! — Preceding unsigned comment added by LAMK2020 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Providing accurate update to Sergeant Issy Smith VC article

Dear team

I have been in touch previously. I am the granddaughter of Sergeant Issy Smith VC and I have just published a book on his life story. I am not sure who I spoke to last time, but the editor mentioned that he was keen to hear more as there were gaps in Issy's history and it was believed that we would never know the real story. This inspired the title of the book, which is RATBAG SOLDIER SAINT - the real story of Sergeant Issy Smith VC. The book is the result of two years extensive research which includes interviews with family. It is now time to update the webpage to correct the inaccuracies. If you can let me know how i can assist, I would be happy to provide you with more information. Kind regards Lian Knight LAMK2020 (talk) 02:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that was me. I'm delighted to hear that you've made progress. What do you want to do now? Hengistmate (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Hengistmate - there are parts of Issy's wikipedia article that need to be updated, now that more facts are known. Would you like me to do this, and how would you like me to provide the information? 58.179.93.207 (talk) 01:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello. Long time no communication. Are you still working on Issy's story? Hengistmate (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)