Talk:Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II

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List[edit]

Wikipedia is not for memorials. Please place the list of individals elsewhere, wiki-site for example. In any case at 100k bytes, the article with the list was about 4 times longer than an article should be. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 06:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am reverting this blanking and am struggling to maintain good faith about it. Please read the guideline - it refers to memorials over "friends and relatives." This is a matter of historical record. I'm open to discussing further, but objections have to be on more solid footing than what you're proposing. Size is irrelevant - there are plenty of articles longer than 25K. --Leifern (talk) 14:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for posting this list! It's the only version I've seen other than in the book by Ottosen. However, I have a few comments and questions.

  1. Near the beginning you say MR I: 19, MR II 27, Donau: 534, Gotenland: 157, Various: 30. However, this adds up to 767, and not 768.
  2. The book by Ottosen says MR I: 19, MR II: 26, D: 532, G: 158, Var: 31, which adds up to 766, but his list shows 20 on MR I, which gives the often-cited figure of 767.
  3. I think your figure of 768 is wrong. I assume that Ester Gorvitz and Esther Gorwitz with same birthdays etc are the same.
  4. With this change, your list is D: 535, G: 157, MR I 19, MR II: 27, Var: 29. I realize that there are two people who went on an earlier Donau trip, which Ottosen lists under Various, and you list under Donau. But you seem to have moved one person (I'm not sure who) from G to D, and one person (Selig Blomberg) from MR I to MR II. Is this intentional, or a typo? As I indicated above, there seems to be some confusion in Ottosen's book about the MR figures.

HelmerAslaksen (talk) 03:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the list is interesting. However it is a list of people who were forcibly dragged off into death. We do not have consensus to maintain a list over every U.S. soldier who was drafted to fight in Vietnam, and died there — or lists of non-voluntary soldiers of other wars who were dragged to their death.
I am going to remove the list. Those who wants the list on their user page — I can help with that.
There are other ways to save the list, but I can not see how all the names are notable in this article.--85.166.141.237 (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a requirement of Wikipedia to feature a list of all 768 men and women who were deported from Norway to the death camps. Leifern, please do not restore this massive list, again.—Ryulong (竜龙) 10:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for having the list rescued and thereafter possibly used as an external link or other type of non-reference[edit]

Wikipedia in Norwegian might be able to keep the list. After all, they do have a list of all Norwegian soldiers who have died after World War 2 - something which aint going to happen on Wikipedia English anytime soon.

The place to ask on wikipedia in Norwegian, would be here, [1]. The question in Norwegian can be simply put as: "Er det plass her til denne lista over jøder som ble deportert fra Norge under den andre verdenskrigen"?

Here is a link to the last previous version of "the deportees of Norway" list, [2].

--85.166.141.237 (talk) 19:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest the list be made a separate article and then linked to this article, that has been done a number of other places and I believe that would be a good solution for our readers. Ulflarsen (talk) 18:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The list has been put on another project at wikisource:List of Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II.—Ryulong (竜龙) 19:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]


I accepted this suggestion from Ryulong in good faith, but it apparently was not offered in good faith, as he know thinks the list shouldn't have been in commons, either. --Leifern (talk) 06:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my fucking fault the list was deleted from WikiSource because they have different standards. It's been moved back to Wikipedia and it's located at List of Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II. I don't understand why it's so important to have a list of the names of every Jewish person deported from Norway during the German occupation.—Ryulong (琉竜) 10:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References/citations[edit]

Below I have quoted text that has been formatted as references, which I have removed because they seem to be discussions (or something else) rather than citations/references.

(If two sources have different numbers (or recounts) on issues, than we have ways of citing each notable source.)

"Some discrepancies about the numbers remain. For example, German documents related to the transit of prisoners on the Donau indicate that 530 were deported from Oslo, whereas the list compiled by Ottosen (1992) indicates that 534 were on board, but this includes Helene Johansen and Mirjam Kristiansen, who were deported on the Donau, but on another date. Kai Feinberg, who was a prisoner on the Donau, was ordered to compile a list of prisoners at the time, and his recollection was that there were 532 on board. Mendelsohn allows that some individuals may have been counted twice, others may have been omitted. The list provided here is based on Ottosen's list, with annotations where these are available. It has been checked for possible duplicates based on name and date of birth. In most sources, the number of survivors is commonly cited as 26; Ottosen (1992) lists 26 individuals as survivors, but omits Harry Meyer, who was captured in the context of the Kvarstad incident, and Robert Savosnick, probably due to an error on his part; as Savosnick is listed as a survivor in the master of list of deportees. This list includes all those who the Nazi authorities considered Jewish. A few of these did not consider themselves Jewish. None of the available literature seeks to ascertain which of the victims were or were not Jewish according to halacha."--85.166.141.237 (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"A smaller number of Jews and individuals judged to be of Jewish heritage were imprisoned under harsh circumstances in Norway during the war but spared deportation, either because they were married to non-Jews, did not fall under the Nazi criteria for being Jewish, or were citizens of countries not under German occupation. It also appears that Jews with Danish citizenship were spared. The deaths of Jews in Norway does not include those who died of natural causes that may have been aggravated by neglect or denial of adequate medical treatment."--85.166.141.237 (talk) 19:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am reviewing all your edits to this article, most of which seem to be attempts at Holocaust revisionism. These are explanatory notes that are entirely appropriate in references. Leifern (talk) 08:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Complying with WP:IINFO in my opinion is not Holocaust revisionism. He is not stating that it never happened. He is not downplaying what happened. He has simply removed an entirely unnecessary (by English Wikipedia inclusion standards) list of the 700 plus men, women, and children who were killed in the camps.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Notability guidelines do not apply in this context, and WP:IINFO restricts "indiscriminate" collection of information. Such a list is not indiscriminate. The anonymous editor has made other edits that make it clear he/she is a Holocaust revisionist. Leifern (talk) 11:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This list is indiscriminate. It lists every single person from Norway who was sent to the death camps. The only thing that is not indiscriminate about it is the fact that you restrict it to only those who fall under the umbra of this subject.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That makes absolutely no sense. "Indiscriminate" means "not marked by careful distinction." If you are going to delete this list, then you have to delete every mention of a murder victim who was not notable for any reason except being a victim. Look at any article on mass murderers, and you will see that the names of their victims are mentioned. What seems to cause a problem for the two of you is that there are so many that it takes up so much space in this non-paper Wikipedia. Leifern (talk) 11:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The English Wikipedia is not supposed to be the Norwegian Holocaust Memorial. Homocide victims are notable. However, individual genocide victims are not. It is most certainly indiscriminate information by Wikipedia's count to list every single Jewish person of Norwegian citizenry who got sent to the death camps.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Incidentally, the best essay on this subject is here Wikipedia:Viability of lists, of which no criteria seem to disqualify this list. Leifern (talk) 11:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is not indicative of any sort of practice on Wikipedia, while WP:IINFO is a policy. Russavia gave you a good option on your talk page to place all of the names and other minutae about the Norwegian Jews sent to Auschwitz and the other camps to the WikiSource project instead.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"relatively complete information about the deportees"[edit]

The following first sentence is non-informative, unencyclopedic, non-notable and POV ("relatively complete") — therefore removed from article:

"Because the Norwegian police and German authorities kept careful records of these victims, researchers have been able to compile relatively complete information about the deportees.[Note 1]"

(A note that is attached to this text:

  1. ^ Some discrepancies about the numbers remain. For example, German documents related to the transit of prisoners on the Donau indicate that 530 were deported from Oslo, whereas the list compiled by Ottosen (1992) indicates that 534 were on board, but this includes Helene Johansen and Mirjam Kristiansen, who were deported on the Donau, but on another date. Kai Feinberg, who was a prisoner on the Donau, was ordered to compile a list of prisoners at the time, and his recollection was that there were 532 on board. Mendelsohn allows that some individuals may have been counted twice, others may have been omitted. The list provided here is based on Ottosen's list, with annotations where these are available. It has been checked for possible duplicates based on name and date of birth. In most sources, the number of survivors is commonly cited as 26; Ottosen (1992) lists 26 individuals as survivors, but omits Harry Meyer, who was captured in the context of the Kvarstad incident, and Robert Savosnick, probably due to an error on his part; as Savosnick is listed as a survivor in the master of list of deportees. This list includes all those who the Nazi authorities considered Jewish. A few of these did not consider themselves Jewish. None of the available literature seeks to ascertain which of the victims were or were not Jewish according to halacha.

)

My comment: That Norwegian police and German authorities maintained records is not notable.

That these records exist to a certain degree, is not notable. (History books and articles about history are written using sources like those mentioned.)

That there is notable info in these records, I find highly likely. In those cases, there are/will be instances where these can/will be used as citations in our article. If it is accompanied with text that demonstrates notability.--85.166.141.237 (talk) 11:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming[edit]

Is the following name more appropriate than the current?

Lead paragraph has no citations — no "citation needed"-tags[edit]

The lead paragraph has no citations. (I have previously put in "citation needed"-tags but these have been removed — and added one new (online) reference.)

Now I have removed most of the sentences in the lead, that do not have citations. If we do not have citations, it is even more difficult to reach a near-consensus.

Some or most of the sentences have POV in them, which is not necessarily a problem if there is a citation (and the text reflecting who the POV belongs to). But without a tag or a reference, then such is not worthy of an encyclopedia.

The unreferenced text from lead paragraph:


"The deportation from Norway to concentration camps followed a planned staging of events involving both Norwegian police authorities and German Gestapo, Sicherheitsdienst, and SS staff, though the front for the campaign was through Statspolitiet under the command of Karl Marthinsen:

As of part of an overall effort to register and disenfranchise Jews from Norwegian economic and political life, some individuals were arrested, detained and deported immediately for various reasons. Some were citizens of countries not under German control or with puppet regimes (e.g., France and Romania); others were arrested as political prisoners early in the process, and treated individually.

Smaller groups were typically transported with the SS Monte Rosa, which was used for regular troop and prisoner transports between Oslo and Århus in Denmark.

Detentions and deportation took on scale when all Jewish men were ordered arrested on October 26, 1942 and sent to camps in Norway, notable Berg, Grini, and Falstad, where they were held under harsh conditions until the deportation, targeted for November 26 on the SS Donau.

Women and children were arrested on or just before November 26 with the goal of deporting them the same day.

Under the command of Knut Rød, women and children in Oslo and Aker were joined with male members of the family at the pier at Akershuskaia where they were forcibly boarded on the SS Donau.

On the same day, the Monte Rosa also left Akershuskaia with a smaller number of Jewish prisoners, primarily from Grini

However, delays in transit from camps outside of Oslo caused the Donau to leave several intended deportees in Norway for a later departure. These were imprisoned at the Bredtveit concentration camp, where they were subjected to mistreatment and neglect. The D/S Gotenland left in February with remaining prisoners."--85.166.141.237 (talk) 12:15, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This IP is a holocaust revisionist who is trying to put historical facts in dispute in order to further his/her own agenda. All facts are cited in the article itself. And to label historical facts as POV is just laughable on its face. Leifern (talk) 07:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Would you stop accusing this guy of being a "holocaust revisionist"? The article is not well written and this IP appears to have some knowledge of what a good article is supposed to look like. Just because he seems to be removing information not relevant for this page (giant table that has since been moved to WikiSource) and requesting better sourcing does not mean he is trying to change the intent of this page.—Ryulong (竜龙) 08:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of course he is a holocaust revisionist, and right now he is laughing at you. Please pay attention to the edits he is performing, and the sections he is deleting. As for your assessment that the article is not "well-written", the remedy would be to improve it, not gut it. Leifern (talk) 13:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have started a subdiscussion to deal with perceived revisionism in my edits. The subdiscussion (below) is called "If you can name the most "revisionist" of my edits ...".--85.165.229.54 (talk) 14:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Moving text out of the lead paragraph[edit]

I have moved som text out of the lead paragraph, because I feel that the text belongs in a different section. (It is not possible to put the whole article, into the lead paragraph!)

Well, here's the thing: the introduction is supposed to summarize and set the stage for the article. You have been deleting section after section that you didn't like, and then you complain that the introduction is too long? Leifern (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem that I have with the text, is the use of typographical "bullets" in front of many sentences. This is an encyclopedia article, not a business presentation. (I don't think I have seen any "bullets" in any of our other lead paragraphs)--85.165.229.54 (talk) 13:37, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you can name the most "revisionist" of my edits ...[edit]

If any of my edits have been perceived as revisionism, then please name'one' of the worst of these — where there actually was a reference.

And please be aware that even if there is a reference, there is no one particular article text that is "the one and only correct article text".

Please be aware, that if you type in a quote for a reference, then a text that follows an edit will often carry more weight.

And please do not label others (or myself) in this discussion as "vandals", "revisionists" etc. (If you disagree with an edit, there is nothing wrong to start a new thread about every disagreement.) If I am a vandal, then so are you. Or rather, if you call me a vandal, then stand prepared for me to call you the same.--85.165.229.54 (talk) 14:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have consistently, until now, 1) questioned facts that are decisive in understanding the history, and then 2) simply deleting those sections. Your versions of the article - until now - have made the historical events seem speculative and tenuously documented. This is the basis for my accusation that your edits have been revisionist.
Also, you have characterized most of the central historical facts in this article as "POV," including innocuous adjectives such as "careful" and "narrow." I think that if a man avoids being shot in Auschwitz by pretenting to be dead underneath other corpses, it is not POV to say that he "narrowly" escaped death. Or that the methods the Norwegian police employed to collect information about Jews as "careful" when you look at the information sheets they had to fill in. Leifern (talk) 18:54, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That may be your judgment, but you need to refer to Wikipedia guidelines and policy in making edits, not your own invented standards.
You are free to invent your own style manual for your own encyclopedia. Bullet points are commonly used to enumerate points where this is appropriate. There is a reason why they are available in the wiki toolbox. Leifern (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What does that mean? You're not quoting me here.[edit]

[Text written by user:85.165.229.54: "And please be aware that even if there is a reference, there is no one particular article text that is "the one and only correct article text".]

What does that mean? You're not quoting me here. Leifern (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures — more are needed; the wording of text under picture from the Akershus pier (Akershuskaia) in Oslo[edit]

Leifern has a good picture from the Akershus pier (Akershuskaia) in Oslo — the article needs more pictures relating to the article's subject. --85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The wording of text under picture from the Akershus pier[edit]

The following text needs improvement,

"View of the pier in Oslo where the deportations took place, taken 26 November 2009, 67 years after the largest deportation"

What about saying

  • "View of the pier in Oslo, taken 67 years after the deportation". (The exact date of your taking the picture is not notable enough for the main article, I would say.)
  • "View of the pier in Oslo, where the deportees were transferred onto ships during 1942-1944. (Picture taken in 2009)"--85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The most famous picture from the deportations is by Georg Fossum, but it is under copyright. The picture I uploaded to the commons was also taken close to the time the Donau left the pier. It is relevant to mention that it at least is taken late in fall and in the evening to give the reader a sense of approximately what it looked like there. It's notable for that reason, not because it's an anniversary. But we might as well mention that it is taken on that date. Certainly, the commons wants a precise date and time. Leifern (talk) 19:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Text that aint good enough for an encyclopedia[edit]

"Between 28 and 34 of these survived"[edit]

Did only "Between 28 and 34" survive the deportation?

Or did only "Between 28 and 34" survive WW2 ?--85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I edited the text to make it abundantly clear. But it was pretty clear to begin with. Leifern (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

J-stamped passports and Aslak Nore's op ed[edit]

Opinion pieces, even good and well-researched ones like Aslak Nore's, are not generally reliable for historical facts if there are other sources to rely on. In this case, Norge got his information from sources that are available to us, and may even have included this article. As it is, there are three points to keep in mind:

  • The J stamps were in the individuals' identity cards, and in some they were also forced to accept the middle names of "Sara" or "Israel" to indicate that they were Jewish
  • The J stamps were one in a series of measures against the Jewish population in Norway, that all escalated to the point of the deportation.
  • In fact, the Norwegian police were not ordered to arrest anyone with a J stamp in their identity cards but rather everyone on their lists of Jews and suspected Jews.

All this well documented in several sources, including the Norwegian governmental commission on restitution, research done by the Holocaust Center and other researchers, Mendelsohn, etc. Leifern (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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