Talk:List of UTC time offsets

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Does anyone know how the :30 and :45 time zones affect the presence of a certain hour?no

For instance, if it is noon GMT, will it be noon in Alaska nine hours later (9:00GMT) and then noon in French Polynesia a half-hour after that (9:30GMT)?-- (talk) 21:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)sara

If so, it seems that a particular moment on a particular day will actually happen 39 times. Is this actually the case?

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Featured list?[edit]

This is a pretty nice list. If we add some references, we should nominate it as a featured list. Chanheigeorge 23:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

When this list was split off from time zone, the principal written references were left behind, the CIA and NAO maps. Even so, they are usually badly outdated, taking as much as ten years to reflect changes made by any government. Thus, individuals in the affected countries are much more important than any written source. This is contrary to the references cited by most articles which must be published. — Joe Kress 05:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I second that, I was looking to nominate it just now, but I see there's unresolved issues. I'll be working on getting some corroborative sources over the next couple of days. Cheers Festrilmongrit (talk) 15:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

This source looks pretty detailed: Time Genie. Chanheigeorge 22:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

At first glance, Time Genie appears to get its information from Wikipedia, which it cites for more information. It even lists its 'countries' with Wikipedia idiosyncracies, such as alternative names. Furthermore, Time Genie does not give any time zone info—it only gives the current time in the selected country, from which the reader has to mentally derive the time zone. — Joe Kress 05:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
how do you come to the conclusion that tg may get the info from wp? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 01:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Arctic and Antarctica[edit]

Does anyone know what time is used in Arctic and Antarctica? Dali 19:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Each country in the Arctic determines its own time. Antarctic stations generally keep the time of their supply bases. For example, the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station keeps New Zealand time, including its daylight saving time of UTC+13 in the southern summer, even though all ideal time zones converge at the South Pole. — Joe Kress 04:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

GMT to PST[edit]

So if someone told me to call them at 9 PM in England, does that mean 1 PM in California or 2 PM? Thank you.

California has UTC-8 and UK has UTC (both with daylight saving time), so the time difference is 8 hours most of the year. 9 PM in England is 1 PM in California. This is not valid around the time of start and stop of daylight saving time. Then it is hard to calculate it, see Daylight saving time around the world. -- BIL 07:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Venezuela to change timezone to UTC -4:30[edit]

Starting Monday the 3rd week of September (2007) Venezuela will change its timezone from UTC -4 to UTC -4:30. RNV(spanish), ABN(spanish), Reuters. Artemis3 04:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Small update: This will come into effect on September 24, 2007; not September 17., eltiempo(spanish).
Historical fact: Venezuela used to have this time zone until 1964. Artemis3 04:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This got delayed again, better wait for the official decree i guess. Artemis3 15:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Principal cities[edit]

Great idea, but does every single time zone need four representative cities listed? One for Nepal, Afghanistan, etc. should suffice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Changes of Zone - Time & Date[edit]

There are various mentions of places which have recently changed Time Zone - I've spotted Chihuahua, Venezuela, Georgia, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Kyrgyzstan, Taiwan, Peninsular Malaysia, Singapore, Marshall Islands, Phoenix Islands, Line Islands. I suggest that it would be well to have a separate list on this page for those and any other reasonably recent (or future) changes; the details in the main list could be replaced by links to that.

There are a few cases where territories have changed from one side of the Date Line to the other, thereby losing or gaining a day. That's of particular interest, and deserves its own list of all known changes however long ago. Alaska 1867, Marshall Islands, Phoenix Islands, Line Islands, at least.

Having separate lists will make omissions more obvious and more likely to be corrected. 17:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Not in the United Kingdom[edit]

Guernsey, Jersey, and the Isle of Man are not parts of the UK. 17:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Time zone change in the Phillipines?[edit]

I was just listening to Y101FM from the Phillipines and they were celebrating the New Year at UTC + 15:45 instead of UTC + 16:00 as one would expect seeing the list. Have I missed something? Dinsdagskind (talk) 16:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Morocco and DST[edit]

BTW, I'm visiting Morocco right now and I'm told Morocco does observe DST from June 1 to September 27th. I found a brief article on the topic, but so far no other information (my search brought me also to this article). The article is not very good, and I'm trying to find some more independent confirmation, but I'm told by some Moroccans that this observance of DST is about five years old. (talk) 21:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Missing common time zone names[edit]

Is there some reason why an English Wikipedia article titled List of time zones is missing the most common English names and abbreviations of the time zones? I was disappointed that I could not find these here, one of the very rare situations where Wikipedia did not contain some meaningful (i.e., non-trivial), widely-known information that one should expect to find. I realize that, for accuracy and global relevance, we should lead with internationally recognized designations, but it seems absurd not to include the more commonly-known data alongside the official stuff, even where it is ambiguous. (In fact, it's the very ambiguity and other issues, along with explanations, that would make their inclusion here a very useful thing.)

As with so many other articles, I have neither the time nor the expertise to write all this up myself just now, so I ask those who regularly maintain this article if they would consider adding this data (along with cited sources, of course). Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

To aid this process (and as a reminder in case I have to do it when I get time), here's an apparently reliable source that includes this information:
Of course, I'm sure there are government sites in several predominately English-speaking countries that would feel even more reliable or official, but this happens to be the current top Google entry for looking up "time zone [abbreviation]". (That's not why I call it "reliable", though. The website itself appears to have at least a 13-year history, is currently ranked 1,176 by Alexa, gets 513,000 Google hits, and is referenced in 178 books collected in Google Book Search.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The title should be changed in "List of Standard Time Zones"[edit]

Accordling to distintion between Standard Time Zones and Daylight Saving Time Zones in Time zones, the title should be changed in "List of Standard Time Zones".

Or, better, the list of Daylight Saving Time Zones should be added. And abbreviations should be included.

For example, look at this time zones list.

Are there two full hours of three-dates-coexisting?[edit]

The article says, "This gives the interesting feature that during one hour each day there are three different dates in use on land around the world." This statement is certainly correct, but I think it doesn't clearly and fully convey how screwed up time zones are. For one thing, I think the "on land" qualifier may be unfairly ignoring "UTC-12: Ships at sea within 7.5° east of 180° and United States Minor Outlying Islands." If we count those people, then aren't there three dates coexisting for a full two hours each day? Another implication of this which isn't clearly mentioned is that there are always at least two dates in use on the surface of the Earth, and there are always at least three time zones using a different date than the majority of world.

Also of note, if we simply didn't have the time zones UTC+12, +13, and +14, then we could still accurately represent the time of day in all parts of the world, but there would never be three dates simultaneously coexisting, and for one full hour each day the entire planet would share a single date.Fluoborate (talk) 19:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Articles on time zones and time offsets[edit]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to get attention for this, but it's a start: I came upon UTC+1 via Special:Randompage earlier, and noticed that it didn't actually say what "UTC+1" means.

I went to fix it, but then realised I'd have to fix over 24 other articles; except they're not all the same. And then I realised that there are articles for each time zone (e.g. Central European Time) as well as each time offset (e.g. UTC+1). And then I found this list, which actually has the information fairly well organised.


  1. What information should be in pages on named time zones (e.g. Central European Time)? Political, cultural, and historical spring to mind.
  2. What information should be in pages on time offsets; as far as I can see, these will only ever be the lists of time zones in that offset. In which case,
  3. Do we need both this list and a separate article for each offset?

And am I even making that distinction correctly, since none of the pages seem to... - IMSoP (talk) 01:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

[Hm, talking to myself...] To go into a bit more depth, I can see the following information being useful:

For each time offset:

  • the offset from UTC (with explanation/link for that convention)
  • the geographical boundaries which that offset would theoretically cover if time zones were divided up entirely based on longitude

For each named time zone:

  • the name of that time zone (e.g. Central European Time)
  • the offset of that time zone from UTC
  • the daylight savings rules applied in that time zone, with either a separate article (e.g. Central European Summer Time) or mention of the offsets used in both parts of the year
  • the countries / states / localities using that timezone
    • historical information (e.g. countries joining or leaving a timezone)
    • geographical information (e.g. localities outside the theoretical range of that offset using the timezone for practical or political reasons)

Obviously, there's a lot of overlap there, so I'm not sure quite how the articles can be neatly divided (does the fact that much of Spain is actually west of Greenwich but uses UTC+1 belong under UTC+1 or Central European Time, or both?) - IMSoP (talk) 18:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

New Discussion[edit]

A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Lists of countries which could affect the inclusion criteria and title of this and other lists of countries. Editors are invited to participate. Pfainuk talk 12:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Dagger symbol[edit]

Some of the time zone names have a dagger symbol or a double-crossed line indicator. There is no explanation of this, though the double-cross seems to be applied to zones with a difference that includes 15 or 45 minutes. The dagger symbol seems to be used for full-hour different zones 13+ and 14+ and for zones that include a 30 minute difference.

The 13+ and 14+ zones are also indicated M(ike). For my own reference chart, I have indicated they don't have a mnemonic name, but what would NATO call them if they sailed into Tongan or Kiribatian waters? Mike-Plus-One and Mike-Plus-Two? (Yankee and Mike are the same, except Mike is 24 hours ahead of Yankee.) Or Xray-plus-a-day and Whiskey-plus-a-day? I'd suggest "nu" and "omicron" as the Greek equivalents of the next two English letters. GBC (talk) 05:47, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, would it be prudent to indicate Israel and Islamic countries on the chart that may begin the legal date at 6 pm or sunset rather than midnight? I'd suggest a symbol for 6 pm and a symbol for sunset. GBC (talk) 06:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

An explanation of the dagger † and double dagger ‡ symbols used to be in the time zone article when this article (list of time zones) was a part of it, but the explanation has now been moved to nautical time. It should be in the lead of this article, suitably modified. Here is the orginal version:
These nautical letters have been added to some time zone maps, like the map of Standard Time Zones by Her Majesty's Nautical Almanac Office (NAO), which extended the letters by adding an asterisk (*) or dagger (†) for areas that do not use a nautical time zone, and a double dagger (‡) for areas that do not have a legal standard time (Greenland's ice sheet and all of Antarctica. The United Kingdom specifies UTC−3 for the Antarctic Peninsula, but no other country recognizes that). They conveniently ignore any zone that does not have an hour or half-hour offset, so a double dagger (‡) has been co-opted for these zones in the list of time zones.
An asterisk * could not be used for half-hour zones because it had already been used in the earliest Wikipedia list for northern daylight saving time (which has been extended to a double asterisk ** for southern DST). The NAO map uses M* and M† for the UTC+13 and UTC+14 zones, respectively, so the usage of M† and M‡ here is only a slight modification. Using nu ν and omicron ο would be too great a change. Also note that the NAO map uses the opposite polarity, that is, it regards zone time as the basis to which an offset must be added to obtain Universal Time. Other time zone maps, including Wikipedia, use Universal Time as the basis, to which an offset is added to obtain the time in other zones.
Time zone maps before about 1970 indicated that the Arabian peninsula did not use a standard time zone by showing it as a blank area (white or black). Indeed, Saudi Arabia did not use standard time at that time, instead it used the local sunset-to-sunset time of each location for prayer times, with specially modified clocks to display it. But during the 1970s Saudi Arabia adopted a standard time zone (UTC+3) and began to publish official prayer times in the local newspaper for each location. These times use the secular 24 hour midnight-to-midnight clock, not any sunset-to-sunset clock. Modern discussions of the Muslim day by Muslim authors (and of the Jewish day by Jewish authors) are always given in terms of the Western midnight-to-midnight day, so they sometimes confuse the two. Given this usage by Muslim (and Jewish) authors themselves, I don't think we should even mention any 6 pm or sunset religious day in this list of time zones. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

For the purposes of this article there seems to be no need to follow the additional symbols used on the World Time Zone Map. I have used † throughout and added an explanation to the introduction of the article. Coroboy (talk) 19:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

San Luis, Argentina[edit]

This is listed as UTC 4 as of March 09 but the link goes to disambguation page. I assume it applies to the whole province, although it's strange as that would mean there are more westerly Argentine provinces at -3? Can anyone shed more light on this, and I think a little more information should be added underneath.Eldumpo (talk) 11:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Confused/Russian oblasts[edit]

The CIA and NAO disagree on the time kept by some Russian oblasts, so both are given below—this may be due to a recent time zone change.

It this referring to the name of the time zone or the actual time zone? If it's referring to the actual time zone the location is in, isn't the best source the Russian or oblast government? Nil Einne (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

These government agencies, US and UK, disagree on the time kept by Russian oblasts and hence their time zone. These agencies receive their information from the governments involved through their diplomatic contacts, but notoriously take several years to update their maps. This disagreement has existed since the 1980s, so a recent change is no longer a valid excuse. Neither these agencies nor the Russian government specify a name for any time zone, only its time relative to Greenwich (in the form of a map). The only Russian source I've seen was a time zone map in a Soviet era atlas, so it is rather old. This Soviet map only gave Soviet zones, not those for the rest of the world, even though the atlas had maps for the rest of the world. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The articles on the Russian Wikipedia about the oblasts are hopefully correct, since people living there hopefully know and update the timezone info if wrong. This is a list of oblasts, check the English and Russian articles (linked from the English article). --BIL (talk) 23:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Kiribati Timechange[edit]

Kiribati changed timezones from UCT-10 to UCT+14 by skipping January 1, 1995, not December 31, 1994. -- (talk) 03:35, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Potentially useful link[edit]

Someone posted Legal Time 2010 (as of 15 April) at List of country calling codes; while the list is from the ITU, it is just a list of time zones for various countries/regions and has nothing to contribute to that list. But it may be useful as a source here. Anomie 03:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Not a list of time zones[edit]

This is a list of geographic areas by UTC offset. TZ master (talk) 12:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Does this explain why the listing for Newfoundland and the tip of Labrador is off? They are listed as UTC - 4:00 here, but are actually in the Newfoundland Time Zone, which is UTC -3:30 during Standard Time, and UTC -2:30 during Daylight Time. (Source:

HarmonicSphere (talk) 13:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Removal of daylight savings time indicators[edit]

Why have the * and ** indicators been removed from virtually all of the regions in the list? This information was present on the English page before, and is still there on other language pages. It is still documented in the page description:

Regions marked with asterisks (* or **) observe daylight saving time: add one hour in summer (* for Northern Hemisphere summer; ** for Southern Hemisphere).

What possible justification is there for removing this useful information? -- (talk) 18:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC) Sean Sherrard shermat2atisudotedu

Yes, I find it very regrettable, too, that this information has been removed from the article. This used to be the best list of time zones but, sadly, is not any more.

Is there any possibility that the DST info is put back into this list? Martin -- (talk) 10:38, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the article would be too cluttered if all the DST information was included. Perhaps an article like List of countries using Daylight Saving Time would be useful to cover the topic? Eldumpo (talk) 21:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The article would not be cluttered by the presence of * and ** because only those symbols were present in the original article — no other information was or will be provided, such as which days of the year DST begins and ends. For that info see Daylight saving time by country. — Joe Kress (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

It appears that some contributors feel that year round time is the norm, and the places that use daylight savings time (primarily wealthy Europe, North American countries, and Australia - along with their economically dependent neighbors) are out of step. But we should not be imposing our values on our readers. Rather, we should be describing what is already in place and how it works.

I've been trying to preserve and emphasize the distinction between time zone and time offset, among other things. And I hope to straighten out the daylight saving time mess as well. Anyone want to join in?

Which cities[edit]

Not seeing any particular method or pattern to which cities were chosen (other than being capitals), I added the capital (or commercial capitals) of countries that were not represented. Now, another user has come along and deleted at least some of those, leaving the selection particularly short of African cities. What should be the criteria for the list? How about country capital or commercial capital and population more than x (to be determined)? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 09:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

My view is that the principal cities section should be a relatively short list outlining the largest few cities in each offset, with ideally only one city per country. It should not be listing every capital city within the zone. Eldumpo (talk) 13:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
I've added some text to the article providing some steer on the inclusion of principal cities, concentrating on not having too many. There's no need for the article to have a long list of cities; these can mostly be easily deduced from the country/region. Eldumpo (talk) 08:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Time zones and time offsets[edit]

This article suffers from a confusing perspective. It lists time offsets, as if these were the same as time zones. I know that some websites take the same perspective, but I think this confuses the reader.

A time offset is not the same as a time zone. The UTC time offset observed in a place is the amount of time subtracted from (or added to) Greenwich Time (aka UTC). Many localities in the English-speaking world also observe a daylight saving time by adding one hour from this offset. So they really have two time offsets.

I'm not really sure if it's so good to have a list of UTC time offsets in addition to a list of time zones. Just having the time zone list would probably be a whole lot more clear for our readers. --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's really useful to have a list of ordered time offsets, so readers can see at a glance what is in each zone. I agree there could be some confusion between time zones/offsets; the article was named differently until quite recently. I've added a note that this list deals with 'standard' time zones. The time zones list you pointed to was a dab page. Eldumpo (talk) 21:47, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Problems with the ″time zone number″ notation on the Standard Time Zones Map[edit]

The main problem occurs with western longitudes. Next to the top and the bottom edges of the map, the map gives UTC offsets (e.g. -5 for the time zone containing New York). But in the body of the map, one finds something that in the legend of the map is called the ″time zone number,″ and for the time zone containing New York, that number is 5 (i.e. +5). In the legend at the bottom, it says (for western longitudes), ″Add time zone number to local time to obtain UTC. Subtract time zone number from UTC to obtain local time." Now that's correct if one really uses the time zone number, i.e. the number indicated in the body of the map. The confusing part is that right above the legend, what one sees is not the time zone number, but rather the UTC offset, and, of course, if (for the time zones in the western hemisphere) one uses the UTC offset with the prescription given in the legend, one gets a wrong result. (There is no corresponding problem for time zones in the eastern hemisphere, because for them, their ″time zone numbers″ coincide with their UTC offsets.)

The second problem with ″time zone numbers″ is that they are not a unique identifiers for time zones: for every time zone in the western hemisphere with a given ″time zone number,″ there is a time zone in the eastern hemisphere with the same ″time zone number″ (e.g. the time zone containing New York in the U.S. and the time zone containing Karachi in Pakistan both have the same ″time zone number,″ namely 5).

The third problem is that with this system of ″time zone numbers,″ if one wants to convert from local time to UTC or vice versa, then one needs to use different formulas depending on whether one is interested in the time zones in the western hemisphere or in the eastern hemisphere. This is evident from the legend. In contrast, one and the same formula using UTC offsets is valid for time zones in both hemispheres: ″UTC″ = ″local time in a zone″ - ″UTC offset for that zone″. The only problem with that (if it is a problem at all) is that one needs to know how to do arithmetic with negative numbers (e.g., in the winter, the UTC offset for New York's time zone is -5, so when it's 15:47:00 in New York in the winter, the UTC time is computed as 15:47:23 - (-5:00) = 20:47:23 UTC). In the system used in the map, one only ever does arithmetic with positive numbers.

The fourth problem is that it is unclear what reputable source uses this kind of ″time zone numbers.″ This map, and some similar to it, can be found at the University of Texas at Austin library online map collection, here. Indeed, the map under discussion seems to be precisely this map. Note, however, that in maps from 2005 and earlier, the numbers shown next to the top and the bottom edges of the map are not the UTC offsets but rather the ″time zone numbers,″ so the main problem discussed above does not occur. However, the remaining problems are still there. In particular, it is not clear who or what produced these maps. On the other hand, reputable sources I was able to find do not use this system of ″time zone numbers.″ One reputable source, the 2002 edition of Bowditch's American Practical Navigator, uses positive numbers for the western hemisphere, and then continues with negative numbers in the eastern hemisphere (e.g. New York's time zone is labeled ″5″, while Karachi's is labeled ″-5″). To see this, download Chapter 18 (″Time″) here, and look at the map in Fig. 1806 on p. 279. This is consistent with the U.S. Navy manual available here. Other systems (arguably) use the UTC offsets as designators for time zones, e.g. here and here. Still other systems do not use number designators at all. For example, this map, on which it says that it was ″Compiled by HM Nautical Almanac Office,″ uses only letter designators.

How best to resolve these problems would seem to depend on how one resolves the confusion between the concepts of ″UTC time offset″ and ″time zone,″ and between the concepts of ″standard time″ and "standard time zone"; this confusion is discussed here. However, as a temporary resolution, one could simply follow what seems to be the natural instinct and use the UTC offsets as time zone numbers. This would require two rather easy modifications of the map: 1. adding the minus signs in front of the ″time zone numbers″ in the body of the map in the western hemisphere, and 2. appropriately changing the conversion recipe in the legend. Reuqr (talk) 10:28, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The map in this article is derived from the map entitled Standard Time Zones of the World published periodically by the Central Intelligence Agency [1] (row 5, col 3, 10-12). As you note, the University of Texas library has several versions online. The latest versions have negative time zone numbers along the top and bottom edges of the Western hemisphere, but not within the countries themselves. The left-hand note is wrong when applied to the edge numbers, but correct when applied to the country numbers of the Western hemisphere. To avoid confusion, all country numbers in the Western hemisphere should have minus signs to match the numbers on the top and botton edges, and the left-hand note should be removed, leaving only the correct right-hand note. — Joe Kress (talk) 23:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Misleading presentation[edit]

This system where a following right indent "cancels" the previous line seems highly counter-intuitive and misleading. Any better suggestions? I though perhaps replace


There also ought to be information about summer time use (as it seems from discussion on this page that there once was). W. P. Uzer (talk) 07:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the indent is generally OK, maybe the blue note under the map could be clarified, but I don't see the need to add 'In' to every line.
Adding daytime/summer times would make the article quite messy and too long. Maybe instead create List of daylight saving UTC time offsets, and create appropriate links between the two articles? Eldumpo (talk) 08:02, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
The blue note under the map is quite OK, but not everyone will notice it and digest it before they start looking at the article - there shouldn't be a need for such a note, as the information should be presented in an intuitive way to start with (e.g. by adding "In" to the lines in question - I don't mean to every line, just the ones which imply something that isn't true, like Russia when we don't mean the whole of Russia). I also don't quite understand your suggestion about summer times - can you explain in more detail how that would work? W. P. Uzer (talk) 22:55, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not convinced there is an intuition problem with the indents but try changing one of them to see how it looks. Re summer times, I was suggesting there could be a separate page listing all those countries where there is daylight saving, and what it is (suitably sourced of course). Eldumpo (talk) 06:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I started off repairing the presentation; I'll do the rest of the zones if no-one objects. Admittedly "In..." doesn't really work when we're referring to possessions rather than integral parts of the country, but different wording can be used when appropriate. W. P. Uzer (talk) 10:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it looks better. It seems to be adding words for the sake of it. Why say 'Territory of France'? Eldumpo (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree it doesn't look better, but the way it's been up to now is just plain misleading. There are no doubt still better ways to do it, but if you simply list "France" without any qualification, then people are going to assume (admittedly less likely in that case than in some of the others) that "France" is included in the things you are listing. Even knowing the system, I find myself misled as to what's being said (especially when there are two levels of indentation). Maybe better to just list the territories without mentioning which countries they belong to (or putting their status in parentheses after their names, as is quite usual), and reserving indentations for the cases of countries that are divided into time zones, like the U.S. and Russia. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:35, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Given the way the list is presented I can't see why people wouldn't think each entry only includes the right-most bullet, but noting they may not see the blue note. The list though should continue to show the ultimate sovereign country e.g. not just jump straight to 'French Polynesia'. Ideally could do with some more views on this. Eldumpo (talk) 06:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I left a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lists, asking for views. For anyone coming into this discussion, a sample of the kind of changes I think are necessary is shown in this diff (for discussion purposes, I've self-reverted the changes for now). W. P. Uzer (talk) 07:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Tabulating ideas[edit]

It's confusing. I recommended tabulating the list. I'd recommend the columns go something like 1) Time offset, 2) Specific place experiencing it, 3) where place is in the world (country, state/province), 4) reference. You should be able to remove the note altogether than. But i will leave it up editors more failure with this topic to hash it out, I'm just a list expert. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 11:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, I note someone else has found the current format confusing. Maybe a list could work but if the columns were done as above then for each offset all the places under the same country should be listed consecutively, but will some entries need another column to sufficiently detail matters. Maybe a 5th column for notes/comments. Also, what happens for sovereign countries in 1 time zone - the 2nd column would be blank or duplicate the 3rd? Maybe someone could do a trial list format to see how things look? Eldumpo (talk) 06:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Personally I don't think a table would work so well; it would be more fussy and awkward to read (for what is, for a large part, essentially just a simple list of countries) and would take away the flexibility that the indentation system gives us. My main objection is just that, when the indentation system is used, those lines whose scope is going to be restricted by subsequent lines ought to be worded in some way that makes clear that this is the case; it isn't natural for the human eye/brain to interpret a line differently purely on the basis that it's followed by a further indented line. Just adding a colon to those lines would be of some help, though for better clarity I think there should also be additional wording like "In..." Also, it doesn't seem natural to list everything under "ultimate sovereign country", when it's a distinct territory rather than just a designated time zone integrally within the country. W. P. Uzer (talk) 06:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


Where is Connecticut on this list? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2014 (UTC)