Talk:Reigate

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Nick Owen[edit]

Nick Owen appears twice in the "famous residents" section. Should 1 be deleted?

Confused. Actually they're two different people aren't they? Of whom one (Nick Owen) probably doesn't live in Reigate. Mucky Duck 12:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nicholas Owen (former ITV Royal Correspondent) lives in Reigate. I doubt that Nick Owen (as in Anne and Nick) does, as he works in Birmingham. I've removed him from the list.

Removed the following section:

Crime[edit]

There is quite a substantion amount of crime in Reigate, most famously the Priory Park and Quarry. There has recently been many arson attacks in the area of Reigate, such as the recent Stable fires and many such fires in the Quarry. It is beleived that these crimes are mostly carried out by youths of the ages between 13-18. Also, a culture of underage drinking is a growing trend in Reigate, mainly the well known Priory and the Castle Grounds.

If there's any sources for this it could be replaced, as it had some merit (unlike the other sections I removed) Seydlitz (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As the contributor cannot write grammatically correctly or sign, a lack of authoritative sources is suggested.- Adam37 Talk 12:02, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reigate Fort[edit]

There is a section in London Defence Positions regarding Reigate Fort, could that be included or an explicit link made to in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seydlitz (talk • contribs) 17:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How to write about settlements[edit]

The article doesn't tell us much about Reigate today, does it? The guidance here suggests so much more can be said: the geography of the place; the demography; the economy (what do people do here today?); transport (rail and road), and not as a list (see below); and such things as the cultural/ sports activities. The guidance also says that lists are not a recommended way of writing an article. The introduction should just be that - a lead paragraph giving brief details cover ing the main points said later on, not giving new (and unreferenced as here) information.

The mere fact of using that guidance gives a much more overarching article. Peter Shearan (talk) 05:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So improve it. Lecturing doesn't help either. 193.113.48.9 (talk) 08:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Colley Hill and Reigate Hill[edit]

Who says these are the 6th & 7th highest points in Surrey? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.13.214 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 1 March 2009

Pronunciation[edit]

A pronunciation guide for "Reigate" would be helpful for those not in the know. 98.218.220.234 (talk) 00:39, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea – I've put it in. Richard New Forest (talk) 23:06, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Spike Milligan[edit]

I have been trying to verify the claim that Spike Milligan lived in Woodhatch during the Second World War. I have consulted the following books (the latter is cited in the Reigate article):

  • Carpenter, Humphrey (2003). Spike Milligan: The Biography. Hodder & Stoughton. ISBN 0-34082611-8.
  • Milligan, Spike (1978). Mussolini: His part in my downfall (PDF). London: Joseph. ISBN 978-0-71-811738-2.

It is clear from both books that Spike Milligan's parents lived in Orchard Way in Woodhatch in 1942-3, when his father, Leo Milligan, was second-in-command of the RAOC depot in Reigate. During this period, Spike was posted to Bexhill and thereafter to Tunis. I can find no support for the claim that the future comedian spent any significant time in the Reigate area. I will therefore remove him from the list of notable people associated with the town. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 17:48, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I used to deliver the Sunday papers to the Milligan house in Orchard Way in the mid to late 60's. 2A02:C7C:72E1:B800:60AF:B491:19F1:CCE2 (talk) 20:14, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve also been hoping to find out more about Spike’s links to Reigate - I don’t suppose you remember which number house they lived at on Orchard Way? 2A02:C7C:A81A:1700:913C:8FB8:8AD6:3531 (talk) 20:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall (1971), Spike gives his parents' address as "Linden House, Orchard Way, Reigate." Mertbiol (talk) 13:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A quick look with streetview doesn't reveal any house with that name now. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 13:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's a photo I've seen of him stood outside No2 Orchard Way with a caption implying that it was his wartime home. It was my childhood home in the 70's. I think the photo is in the Priory School Museum. AdrianE73 (talk) 11:59, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone check the 1939 Census to see if he is listed as resident there? Murgatroyd49 (talk) 12:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Reigate/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 11:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Starting first read-through (for typos, duplicate links etc at this stage). Second reading, scrutinising content, to follow. Tim riley talk 11:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Tim riley I look forward to working with you again! Best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 12:03, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling[edit]

  • behavioral
  • angeliva
  • Paish

Duplicate links[edit]

There are two links to these articles, listed here in order of their second appearance:

  • Domesday Book
  • Dissolution of the monasteries
  • Reigate (UK Parliament constituency)
  • Kingston upon Thames
  • Reigate and Banstead
  • Reigate railway station
  • Redhill railway station
  • East Surrey Hospital
  • Sidlow
  • Reigate Stone
  • Reigate Heath Windmill
  • Margot Fonteyn
  • British Army
  • Wray Common Windmill

I'm moving on to a second reading – scrutiny of content. Comments to follow. Tim riley talk 12:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for spotting these. I think I've corrected them all. Mertbiol (talk) 12:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed comments[edit]

This is a thorough and very readable article, which I am much enjoying reviewing. I offer a few suggestions that I hope you will find useful, but I have found nothing that absolutely must be altered to meet GA standards: it's for you to decide which, if any, of the following you wish to act on:

  • Lead
  • "tile making took place" – the OED hyphenates "tile-making" (and there's another one in the History section)
  • "the new town hall on Castlefield Road" – why the AmE "on So-and-So Road" rather than the traditional BrE "in So-and-So Road"? And unless I'm misreading the main text, the Town Hall opened in 1901, in which case "new" is not an adjective that comes immediately to mind in 2023. (If the adjective is part of a title, as in New College, Oxford, the title should be capitalised.)
I have made these changes. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Toponymy
  • "The name is thought to derive from the Old English rǣge meaning "roe deer" and the Middle English gate, which might indicate an enclosure gate through which deer were hunted" – Ekwall (p. 384) says "Gate might well mean 'pass' in this case. but 'gate' is perhaps more likely". (Use this or not as you prefer: I merely mention it.)
I hadn't come across this interpretation/translation, but I have included it with the reference to Ekwall. Thank you for finding this and letting me know about it. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Geology
  • "A number of quarries have operated" – "a number of" is a bit woolly. A handful? Lots? And if woolliness is unavoidable "some" is at least shorter.
  • "Upper Greensand from Medieval times" – I don't think we usually capitalise "medieval".
  • "There are the remains of a number of old chalk pits" – as above.
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early history
  • "Finds from the Bronze Age include a gold penannular ring, dated to c. 1150 – c. 750 BCE" – our article on Bronze Age Britain says that our Bronze Age ended c. 800 BC, but what's fifty years among archaeologists?
The c. 750 BCE is in the reference. I suppose it's possible that gold penannular rings fell out of fashion in the very late British Bronze Age? Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I stopped wearing penannular rings at about that date. Tim riley talk 16:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A series of artefacts discovered to the south west of the town centre in 2011, suggest" – at the risk of seeming pedantic I'd say the singular noun "series" governs the verb, which should also be singular. On the other hand, if you think that would look odd I shall not press the point. What I will press is that the comma after 2011 oughtn't to be there.
  • "throughout the duration of the occupation of Britain" – a bit belt and braces, perhaps? "throughout the occupation of Britain" would be clear enough, I think.
I have amended the text as appropriate. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Governance
  • "Reigate Foreign" – wonderful! ("Here comes a stranger: 'eave 'alf a brick at 'im")
Very much an "us-and-them" mentality from the burgesses of the Borough of Reigate. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reigate Priory
  • "William de Warenne, the fifth Earl of Surrey, is thought to have founded the Augustinian priory at Reigate before his death in 1240" – well, he would hardly have founded it after his death.
  • "William Howard, Baron of Effingham" – I don't think this is the correct way of titling him. He (like his more famous son, of Spanish Armada fame) is usually called Baron Howard of Effingham, not Baron of Effingham.
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Transport and communications
  • "Two significant improvements to the road network" – this is Plain Words on the adjective: This is a good and useful word, but it has a special flavour of its own and it should not be thoughtlessly used as a mere variant of important, considerable, appreciable, or quite large ... it ought to be used only where there is a ready answer to the reader's unspoken question 'Significant, is it? And what does it signify?'
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Healthcare
  • "the GP practice is on Yorke Road" – this would be Yorke Road, New Yorke, judging by the preposition? And more such Americanisms later that could with advantage be rooted out. Perhaps blue-link GP, do you think?
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Economy
  • "Air Europe had its head office ... Canon UK had their headquarters" – a corporate entity can equally well take a singular or a plural verb and pronoun, but it might be a good thing to decide which you're using here and stick to it.
  • "Further along London Road towards the town centre can be found the former European headquarters of Willis Towers Watson, prior to the merger with Willis where the global and British headquarters relocated to Lime Street in London[181] in front of which is a life-size bronze of Margot Fonteyn and a huge picturesque cedar tree." – this is confusing. The statue of Fonteyn is in Reigate, not the City of London, but that isn't what the sentence says. And who says the tree is picturesque, or indeed there at all? There is no source cited.
I have amended the text as requested. The Margot Fonteyn statue is mentioned the "Culture" section and I had forgotten to remove it from this section (now done). Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Transport
  • "Reigate is linked by a number of bus routes" – how many? That information is surely available.
Unfortunately bus routes are in state of flux post-Covid. A detail such a such as the number of bus routes/operators is likely to go out of date quickly, so I would prefer not to put a specific figure here. I have rephrased to get rid of "a number of". Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Tim riley talk 16:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other schools
  • "Reigate Valley College ...educates pupils that have had behavioural issues" – not keen on "that". True, it is used thus by Chaucer and in the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer, but in modern usage the usual relative pronoun for people, rather than things, is "who" (though I admit that every one of the four editions of Fowler from 1926 to 2015 states that it isn't a firm rule).
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Church of St Mary Magdalene
  • "Two phases of significant reconstruction" – "significant": as above.
  • "the largest of which a memorial to Richard Labroke" – missing an "is?
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Parks and open spaces
  • "an area of about 5 acres (2.0 ha) ... part of the North Downs escarpment. 1.0 ha (2.5 acres)" and so on: probably better to standardise throughout on imperial with metric in brackets or vice versa. And now I look again, the same applies to miles and kilometres: e.g. "19 mi (31 km)" but "3.7 km (2.3 mi)".
I have amended the text as requested. Miles are now always before km, but for any other units, metric is always before imperial per MOS:UNITS. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes
  • "the Great Plague of 1665-66" – en-dash, please, rather than hyphen, for date ranges.
I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bibliography
The bibliographical details are OK for GAN, I think, but would not survive an FAC source review. In particular:
  • Books without an ISBN will usually have an OCLC number (WorldCat will provide) which should be given if available.
  • Some of the capitalisation looks improbable to me: for instance Google Books shows that The Geology of the Country around Reigate and Dorking is in the customary title case.
  • Dines, HG; Edmunds, FH; Chatwin, CP; Stubblefield, CJ: the Manual of Style prescribed spaced initials with full stops: "Dines, H. G." etc. Likewise for Gover, J.E.B; Mawer, A.; Stenton, F.M and Gallois, RW; Edmunds, MA.
I have amended the text as requested. I was able to find two more ISBNs and have added all of the OCLC numbers that I could find. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • And an FA source reviewer would certainly have concerns about WP:V or WP:RS about the Prospectus for Reigate Sixth Form College and several of the publications by local historians and historical societies. As I remarked at the GAN of Ashtead, I think they'll do at GA level, but be aware if you go on to FAC, which I think you should.
I think it would be fair to say that of all the articles I've brought to GAN, Reigate has been the hardest to find decent secondary sources for. The town history (Hooper 1945, reprinted 1979) is well out of date and the local newspaper archive is not complete as we would like. I will continue to search for reliable sources and will add them as and when I find them. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing in that list to cause alarm and despondency, I think. Over to you. – Tim riley talk 14:47, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for these comments and apologies for not addressing them more promptly. I think I have made all the edits requested. Please let me know if you have any further concerns. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Review[edit]

Overall summary[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    Well referenced.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Well referenced.
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    Well illustrated.
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
    Well illustrated.
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

This is a top-notch article, and I don't see why it shouldn't be put up for FAC, with a little tightening of the referencing. I am still chuckling at "Reigate Foreign" and I look forward to further GANs from Mertbiol. I am twitted by those who know me for my reluctance to stray much outside the Circle Line, but Mertbiol's Surrey articles tempt me to do so. More, please! – Tim riley talk 16:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much @Tim riley: for another diligent and thorough review. It’s been a pleasure working with you again!
One further favour, if I may — I reviewed the Dolwyddelan Castle article at GAN a week or so ago and thought very highly of it. At my recommendation, the nominator has put it up for an A class review at WP:MilHist. I wondered if you had time to perhaps cast your eye over the article and leave a comment or two? (I'm not sure whether your interests and expertise stretch to 13th-century Welsh castles, but if they do, I'm sure A.D.Hope would welcome your input!) Thanks and best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MilHist? Good Lord! As a proud holder of the Queen's Award for Cowardice I have never been seen there, but I'll look in after dark if there's no-one else around. As it's an ancient Welsh castle you might also give KJP1 a prod, as he knows a thing or two about such matters. Tim riley talk 16:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Reigate Tunnel
Reigate Tunnel

Improved to Good Article status by Mertbiol (talk). Self-nominated at 06:32, 30 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Reigate; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - y The greatbritishlife source states that the tunnel "passes underneath the castle grounds" (my emphasis). The other source accessible online is silent on this. Unless the offline source specifically uses "site", I think it should be tweaked to read "runs under the grounds of a medieval castle" to accurately reflect the source. Same with the article, although I note it uses different sources. It isn't a great idea to use different sources from the article to cite the hook, that sort of isn't the point of a DYK. AGF offline source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:17, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: None required.

Overall: Great job, just the sourcing/citation issues to address. All GTG now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:41, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Thanks for the comments. I have the fixed the citation issue in the Town Hall section. I deliberately gave two online sources for this nomination which were accessible to help the DYK reviewer. The Ward (1998) source does indeed say "site". (The use of "grounds" by the Great British Life source is anachronistic. Norman castles didn't have "grounds" in the sense that their later counterparts did.) Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 09:14, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reigate in wartime[edit]

There appears to be no mention of the extensive tunnels below Reigate Hill. I know these exist, as I explored them as a child. I believe they have long since been blocked off following accidents, but from memory they consisted of two or three entrances below the quarry defended by steel blast doors, leading to at least two large semicircular halls deep inside the hill. Srickaby (talk) 21:23, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Srickaby: Thanks for your message. I have found a source and have added a few sentences to the "Reigate in wartime" section. I will keep an eye out for further information. It would be nice if we could add an image. I have found this Flickr album, but unfortunately all of the pictures are copyrighted. Do you, or anyone else you know, have any photos that you might be prepared to upload to Commons so that we could use it on this page? Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 12:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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