Talk:Tony Jones (theologian)

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Notability[edit]

This entry has been tagged to ask for more secondary sources to further establish Tony Jones' notability. At some point I will work on more reliable sources if no one else does. However, it should be noted that many other people of similar statue and acclaim, such as Rachel Held Evans and Doug Pagitt, had entries long before this entry and continue to have entries.Eb7473 (talk) 16:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tonyjones has been editing the biography section[edit]

I'll make a note above. 121.45.218.89 (talk) 13:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Adding properly referenced information to Tony Jones (theologian)[edit]

I tried to add some more sources with a range of views to the article. Some of them weren't reliable, but all of them were reverted. I will post them here so people can try and edit the text and references to a more acceptable form. 121.45.218.89 (talk) 19:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Christian people of colour have also discussed Tony's awareness of his "own place or race or context." [1][2][3][4][5] A perception exists that the emergent church is claiming to have a better theology, without including diverse voices.[6]

However, some members of the LGBT community have asked Tony to become more aware of his own privilege.[7][8][9]

He has minimal access to his three children from his first marriage.[10] John Piper, an evangelical Christian speaker, believe that Tony's divorce disqualifies him from Christian leadership.[11][12] Tony has explained his divorce by making a theological distinction between his "legal" (first) wife, Julie McMahon, and his spiritual or sacramental (second) wife, Courtney Page.[13][14][15][16]

References

  1. ^ http://politicaljesus.com/2013/05/17/whiteness-emergence-christianity-tony-jones-jason-richwine/
  2. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2011/06/20/on-being-called-a-borderline-racist/
  3. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/sarahoverthemoon/2013/05/tony-jones-peter-rollins-christianity-racism-sexism-homophobia/
  4. ^ http://crystalstmarielewis.com/2013/05/16/white-men-cant-jump-out-of-the-frying-pan-that-easily/
  5. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/05/16/im-tired-of-being-called-a-racist/
  6. ^ http://www.christenacleveland.com/2013/05/we-have-the-best-version-of-the-gospel-diversity-repellent/
  7. ^ http://nakedpastor.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-117620
  8. ^ http://standupforthetruth.com/2013/02/tony-jones-fascinating-exchange-with-chris-rosebrough/
  9. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/sarahoverthemoon/2013/05/tony-jones-peter-rollins-christianity-racism-sexism-homophobia/
  10. ^ http://nakedpastor.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/
  11. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2012/09/19/john-piper-emerging-church/
  12. ^ http://unsettledchristianity.com/2014/10/be-careful-about-the-company-you-keep-the-idols-you-worship-tony-jones/
  13. ^ http://umbl0g.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/tony-jones-false-distinction-about.html
  14. ^ http://nakedpastor.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-117620
  15. ^ http://unsettledchristianity.com/2014/10/be-careful-about-the-company-you-keep-the-idols-you-worship-tony-jones/
  16. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2012/09/19/john-piper-emerging-church/
My apologies, I finally understand that blogs are not reliable sources in this context. 121.45.218.89 (talk) 19:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is the justification for such an arbitrary division between mainstream media and blogs? Is this a Wikipedia policy? Many important stories are broken on blogs. For example, the story I suppose you're alluding to, about Jones' abuse of his ex-wife. Elcalebo (talk) 21:51, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the extensive biographies of living persons policy. Basically, people can publish anything on a blog, the news at least has some fact checking. twilsonb (talk) 13:20, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement on Court Case duration from Court Documents[edit]

I think I've come up with a factual statement based on reliable sources (court documents):

Note: the documents are protected by image verification and mandatory search. Use the id or title to find them. Is there a better way to note that than comments and the "registration required" parameter? (The only other option appears to be "subscription required", which doesn't fit at all.) 121.45.218.89 (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would like consensus on this before proposing the edit to the Personal Life section. What do you think? 121.45.218.89 (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Jones and his ex-wife Julie McMahon have been involved in two court cases stretching from 2008-2014, including appeals.[1][2]

References

  1. ^ Minnesota State Court (2014), In the Marriage of Anthony Hawthorne Jones and Julie Anne McMahon Jones, Minnesota State Court, 27-FA-08-5921, retrieved 15 Jan 2014 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |registration= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ Minnesota State Court (2014), Anthony Hawthorne Jones vs Julie McMahon Jones, Minnesota State Court, 27-CO-13-8209, retrieved 15 Jan 2014 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |registration= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help)
No again. See WP:BLPPRIMARY. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 20:41, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that's really strict and a little strange. So I can't even say: "The court case lasted X years"? I don't even mention what the court case is about. 121.45.218.89 (talk) 20:49, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's the policy. And since you can't source it in the end the information does not belong in the article. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 20:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The evidence from the primary sources is outlined in this secondary source: https://rlstollar.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/the-evidence-against-tony-jones/ Elcalebo (talk) 21:53, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a blog and it isn't reliable for negative criticism in biographies of living persons on wikipedia. You'll need to find or wait for a mainstream / established / journalistic news source to publish. twilsonb (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Jones' Self-Published Work - List[edit]

Per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves:

  • on being called a borderline racist [1]
  • I'm tired of being called a racist [2]
  • Theology of Marriage - There Are Two Marriages (he wrote a book on this, too, I think) [3]

References

  1. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2011/06/20/on-being-called-a-borderline-racist/
  2. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/05/16/im-tired-of-being-called-a-racist/
  3. ^ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2011/09/06/there-are-two-marriages-part-one/

So are these OK to use? 121.45.218.89 (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Edit: Tony Jones has three children.[edit]

Before this morning's edit war, the article stated that Tony Jones lived with his 3 children (which is factually incorrect, and unsupported by reliable sources). It may also have implied that they were his children with his second wife (which is unclear, and unsupported by reliable sources).

However, he does have 3 children, which is supported by his own blog[1].

I can't see that this change is at all controversial, but please feel free to wait to gain consensus here. 121.45.218.89 (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please add the following text and reference to Tony_Jones_(theologian)#Personal_life, after "Jones is divorced and lives in Minnesota with his second wife.": 121.45.218.89 (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done §FreeRangeFrogcroak 01:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://tonyj.net/about/

Further Sources for Review[edit]

I don't know if any of the following sources qualify - I think about.com may be very much like a blog:

Is Tony Jones still employed by Solomon's Porch as Theologian in Residence?[edit]

Multiple sources claim that Tony Jones is (or was, at the time) Solomon's Porch Theologian-in-Residence. But he's not on their staff page. Which set of facts wins? How do we document this in the article? Or do we need a third-party source? (It's so hard to argue from the absence of evidence that Tony is on staff, that it is evidence of absence from the staff.) twilsonb (talk) 20:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A Minn Post article which quotes both Jones and the lead pastor of this church titles him as Theologian In Residence. It is also the title used in dozens of other references from universities, publishers, and other sources as recently as 2015. The Theologian In Residence does not seem to be an administrative staff position that would keep office hours at the building. Note: The church does not list its board members, advisors, or other similar positions on its website. To remove this, we would need proof that negates this fact that appears in so many resources, such as a quote about him resigning, being removed etc. (User: ReligFan) —Preceding undated comment added 15:19, 15 February 2015
Thanks, this makes sense. 14.202.224.251 (talk) 21:02, 22 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mother of his children?[edit]

How can you have a Wikipedia article about a public figure and not mention the mother of his children? Can nobody find an objective source that gives her name? Cwgmpls (talk) 01:51, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Her name is Julie McMahon. It looks like she's not mentioned because certain people are (so far successfully) trying to ensure that Jones' Wikipedia page does not mention the fact that he assaulted her. Here's a source for both her name and the assaults: https://rlstollar.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/the-evidence-against-tony-jones/ Elcalebo (talk) 21:46, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Elcalebo, a self-published blog is not considered a reliable source under the Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons, except for certain material published by the subject, and, then, once a fact can be reliably sourced, supporting information from secondary sources. So you'd have to find any material from Tony Jones' own statements. Your best best is probably the Statement by Tony Jones concerning allegations of abuse, however, it may fall under the category of being "unduly self-serving", or involving "claims about third parties". It would also have to be made clear that this is only Jones' version of events. twilsonb (talk) 05:50, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're very right, Cwgmpls, Tony Jones' first wife's name is relevant. Her critique of his political position on marriage is in a Washington Post article called Separation of church and state in marriage?. I won't add it to the section that mentions his divorce, because it would be confusing to mention his first wife's name, and not his current wife's name. And his current wife is not published in reliable sources, and has not made herself a public figure like his first wife. twilsonb (talk) 13:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I added an infobox, and added his current wife's name, it was inconsistent to give one wife but not both. twilsonb (talk) 14:47, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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