Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of ecclesiastical parishes in the Diocese of Bath and Wells/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:32, 4 June 2018 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of ecclesiastical parishes in the Diocese of Bath and Wells[edit]

List of ecclesiastical parishes in the Diocese of Bath and Wells (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): — Rod talk 17:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This list was created as a bit of an experiment to examine how closely ecclesiastical parishes (EP) match civil parishes, and it may become the standard for a whole load of other UK lists on similar topics. It has gone through multiple iterations (mostly from User:Nilfanion and myself) about how it should be subdivided and what should be included. It is now comprehensive including all EPs in the Diocese of Bath and Wells supported by over 600 references. I feel it now meets the FL criteria but would welcome your comments about the organisation as well as any individual entries.— Rod talk 17:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

quick comment: "This is a list of... " is no longer appropriate for featured lists, as it is tautological. Mattximus (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - tweaked.— Rod talk 20:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Same goes for "When the civil parish is identical to the ecclesiastical parish, this is shown in the tables below in bold." Which should be a note for the table (or in a legend), not in the lead itself. I don't have time for a full review, but just want to say great work on the page so far! Mattximus (talk) 21:55, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Remove that if appropriate. A footnote on the lines of "identical to civil parish" should suffice for those cases where there is a 1:1 correspondence.--Nilfanion (talk) 18:07, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Could you do this to ensure it meets what you were trying to achieve with the list.— Rod talk 18:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 08:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Six paragraphs for the lead is too many. Consider making "Background" or "History" section or whatever.
  • Is there an article on "ecclesiastical parish" or at least something which we could link to?
  • Given the pipe, I wonder if " English county " should be the blue link rather than just "county"?
  • Not sure I understand the use of italics in the explanation of the name. In fact, this is footnote territory.
  • I have changed to "speech marks".— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Alternative episcopal oversight (for parishes in the diocese who reject the ministry of priests who are women) is provided by the provincial episcopal visitor" the first link in this sentence is a redirect to the second linked article in this sentence.
  • Link to the redirect removed.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Parish is linked twice to different targets.
  • Second wikilink removed.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Meanwhile I'm not even sure you linked diocese?
  • " 44 dioceses divided between the provinces of Canterbury, with thirty d..." MOSNUM, either all numbers or all words for comparable items in a single sentence.
  • Changed to numbers.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ecclesiastical parish" just links back to "Parish".
  • As discussed above - perhaps a new article is needed. I have removed the wikilink.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When the civil parish is identical to the ecclesiastical parish, this is shown in the tables below in bold." per MOS:BOLD we can't just use bold to denote some property of an item.
  • This was mentioned above. I am waiting for a comment from User:Nilfanion before changing this as it was a key purpose of this list initially to look at how similar they are.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would collapse the TOC down too, limit it to second level headings, as currently there's too much whitespace.
  • Link archdeacon in the prose.
  • I'm not quite sure where this should be wikilined. Archdeacon of Bath etc is already linked - the others are to "archdeaconry" are you suggesting I should link that to archdeacon?— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Table headings, reduce over-caps, Ecclesiastical Parish -> parish, Civil Parish(es) -> Civil parish(es).
  • Table headings, photo -> image.
  • Done (but I don't know why they are all photos?)— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it clear what "unparished" means?
  • The whole of Bath, Somerset does not have parishes - not sure what change to make here?— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bath has parishes - there are several ecclesiastical parishes listed in the relevant section. It doesn't have civil parishes, and an appropriate wikilink to unparished area should suffice. That is the correct term, although it is somewhat confusing in this context...--Nilfanion (talk) 18:07, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "St Michael: Twerton" colon not comma? Several instances of this.
  • I thought they were all like this with colon - it is only used where there is more than one church in a parish to differentiate between them.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As noted above, can't use just bold, need a symbol or something, per MOS:ACCESS, MOS:BOLD.
  • I am waiting for a comment from User:Nilfanion before changing this as it was a key purpose of this list initially to look at how similar they are.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • What differentiates between whether a parish church without an article gets red-linked or not linked at all?
  • Generally if they are Grade I or II* they have a link or have a red link. If Grade II or not listed they do not have a red link if no article has been written. (this list has made me realise just of how Somerset churches I have written articles about).— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would prefer column widths to be the same from section to section.
  • I set all the tables to be the same width, but the columns are auto - are you suggesting a specific number of pixels (which may be strange of different monitors or as percentages of the table?— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use A Church Near You as a website but inconsistently, e.g. currently looking at refs 453 to 458, I would have expected all but the title to differ, yet two have the website while four don't.
  • I must have fallen asleep when doing that section. I've added some in & will look for others, but if spot any others please shout.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You also have a few archived links, but not many at all, suggest that's made more consistent.
  • I will try to rectify this.— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there no "Lists of ..." category into which this could also fall?
  • Not that I could find - as I said this is "first of kind".— Rod talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm all good but for the use of bold alone which is in contravention of MOS:ACCESS, like WP:NOSTRIKE, i.e. By default, most screen readers do not indicate presentational text attributes (bold, italic, underline).... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Rodw, The Rambling Man, and Mattximus: I've removed the bolding, replacing it with a footnote. I think that gives the message more clearly and in a compliant fashion now?--Nilfanion (talk) 20:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • "Each parish is administered by a parish priest who may be assisted in his pastoral duties by a curate or curates, who are also ordained but not the parish priest." This does not sound right. Maybe "also ordained but are not parish priests".
  • " A benefice or living in the Church of England describes any ecclesiastical parish or group of ecclesiastical parishes under a single stipendiary minister, as well as its related historical meaning." I would delete " as well as its related historical meaning" as unnecessary and confusing.
  • "The term dates from the grant of benefices by bishops to clerks in holy orders as a reward for extraordinary services." I cannot see anything about extraordinary services in the source.
  • The source does say "on the ground of some extraordinary merit on the part of the grantee." which I think has been rephrased.— Rod talk 18:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This seems to me misleading. The article says that the term dates from the grants of land to soldiers in the Roman Empire, and was adopted by the church on the Continent in the sixth century for grants of land to clergy of extraordinary merit. Extraordinary merit is different from extraordinary services, and "clerks in holy orders" are not mentioned. The term may not have been used in sixth century Frankia. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed that sentence as it is explained at benefice which is wikilinked from that paragraph.— Rod talk 16:59, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The rest of the paragraph is unreferenced.
  • Ref added for civil parishes but I'm not sure the final sentence can be sourced.— Rod talk 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The area covered includes the Chew Valley, and used less formally to cover other nearby areas" I do not understand this. Surely an area must be formally either in or out of a deanery area?
  • Changed to "and surrounding areas.— Rod talk 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "unparished" mean?
  • See comment & responses to TRM in capped section above - where User:Nilfanion said "::*Bath has parishes - there are several ecclesiastical parishes listed in the relevant section. It doesn't have civil parishes, and an appropriate wikilink to unparished area should suffice. That is the correct term, although it is somewhat confusing in this context...".— Rod talk 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is information available on which parishes have alternative oversight?
  • I will go and look for this.— Rod talk 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Bishops of Ebbsfleet provides alternative oversight to this area, see [2]. Not sure how to format, but that fact is probably more interesting than most.--Nilfanion (talk) 17:43, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Bishop of Ebbsfleet is included (and I've added a reference for this) however I can not find a list of which parishes this applies to.— Rod talk 10:26, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Most of the undeveloped area is within the Bristol and Bath Green Belt." Does undeveloped mean rural? If so, I think it is a better word.
  • Some is rural farmland, but there centres of population, so I think it might depend on your definition of "rural" but have changed & linked to Rural area (see Rural area#United Kingdom for some definitions but I don't know if the area covered by the Chew Magna Deanery strictly meets this (even though I live in it).— Rod talk 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The area is split between Bath and North East Somerset and Mendip." I would clarify that you are referring to local government areas.
  • Done
  • This is a first rate list, but I do not think that you should have so many names, especially of deans. It will be very difficult to ensure that the article is always kept up to date. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:33, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your comments. I am only aware of four names & then change very infrequently
  • I am not sure whether we are talking about the same thing regarding names. I find around 18 deans, each of whom you name, and with other officials you name about 24. There must surely be several changes each year with promotions, retirements etc?
  • I will remove the specific names at Deanery level as I try to add the location coords but will leave this at Archdeaconry level as these are more significant, fewer & don't change often.— Rod talk 10:26, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. I have now removed the names at Deanery level.— Rod talk 16:00, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cmnt[edit]

I think this sort of list, since it covers public locations, should include address or map locations. Nergaal (talk) 22:22, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks. This would not be simple as the parishes covers irregular areas of widely different sizes. We could give the grid refs for the churches (which are all available in the church articles) but these would not necessarily be a central point in the parish & would get complex where there is more than one church in the parish.— Rod talk 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are many entries with no linked article. Considering the scope of this list, having some locator here would be quite convenient. Nergaal (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would you suggest that the grid ref/lat long of the church is given?16:59, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I have changed the first table (Deanery of Bath) to include the coords - could you look at this to see if it is what you mean before I do the rest? - with a long list like this it is a significant edit.— Rod talk 16:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your help. I've now done all tables. Could you take a look & make sure this is what you intended.— Rod talk 16:00, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Review by PresN[edit]
  • "The parish with its local parish church is the basic unit of the Church of England." - halfway through this paragraph, you change subjects entirely, and not as a short setup for discussing parishes within Bath and Wells. I think that it would flow better if the first half of this paragraph was a part of the 1st paragraph, and the rest with the 3rd, even if that makes the (new) second paragraph a bit long.
  • "Such a life freehold is now subject to certain constraints" - this sentence is odd, given that there's nothing else for the "now" to be set against, and since it doesn't say what the constraints are the sentence doesn't mean very much.
  • It's odd that you call out that there are 12,600 parishes in the CofE, but don't say how many parishes are in Bath and Wells (I know it's in the infobox, but still).
  • "The deadery covers villages in South Somerset and Taunton Deane" - deanery?
  • Well spotted - changed.— Rod talk 10:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grid refs for the churches would be good, I think (perhaps with a note up at the top that its for the church(s), not the center of the area); area polygons for the parishes is far too heavy an ask even if it'd be more helpful.
  • I am going to work on adding grid refs over the next day or two. Nilfanion would be much better than me to comment on polygons & maps than I am.— Rod talk 10:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, can we get a small map of where in England this diocese is? Like the kind in Somerset, with "Somerset and small areas of Devon, Dorset, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire" shaded?
  • With regards to maps/polygons, the CofE has created online data which could easily be adapted. Unfortunately its licensing is too restrictive for us (and I have asked). That rules out individual maps for each parish. For small scale maps, the civil parishes could be used as an approximation and would capture the major deviations from the county boundary.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The tables do not meet WP:ACCESS requirements; specifically, they need colscopes and rowscopes. --PresN 18:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed the first table (Deanery of Bath) to include column & row scope - could you look at this to see if it is what you mean before I do the rest? - with a long list like this it is a significant edit.— Rod talk 16:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Almost, with rowspans you have to have a line break after the first column's cells. I've done this for you in that first table. --PresN 15:58, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the advice (and example). I've copied your lead with the next couple of deaneries and will work on doing these (along with coords) for the others over the next few days.— Rod talk 17:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks - I've followed your lead and now done the other tables. Could you check this now meets WP:ACCESS requirements please.— Rod talk 16:00, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good, Support. --PresN 02:00, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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