Miscellaneous desk
< April 25	<< Mar \| April \| May >>	April 27 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

April 26[edit]

Castle and Palace[edit]

What is the difference between a castle and a palace?

Tepint (talk) 03:43, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tepint: We have articles on Castle and Palace. The first article says that a castle "distinct from a palace, which is not fortified." Ian.thomson (talk) 04:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, the term palace suggests a certain grandeur, originally referring to the lavish residence of a monarch, whereas a castle can be (and historically was) stark and sober. In the good old days castles were built and inhabited by knights, who often were the strongest and most successful robbers. As nobility became more "civilized" by sucking up to the king (the mightiest warlord of them all) and deriving their power and legitimacy from him, the castles became more lavish and their fortification less important. Windsor Castle is an early example of a castle fit to serve as the residence of a monarch – but actually due to the construction of a palace within the confines of the castle. And in the period of romanticism, palaces were sometimes styled in a way reminiscent of castles, of which Neuschwanstein Castle is the preeminent example. So in the end the terms came to overlap. --Lambiam 07:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some castles are also palaces. See Tower of London. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In England, there came a reasonably peaceful time in the 14th century when comfortable living conditions began to be more important than military defences; although nobles wanted to keep the impression that they had a war-like and impregnable fortress, they also wanted nice big windows, fireplaces, chimneys and other features to make a luxury home which would impress the neighbours. The resulting hybrid is sometimes called a "palace-fortress". An example is Bodiam Castle in Sussex; "There is a constant debate among historians whether the castle was built for military strength or as a romantic country home designed to evoke the ideas of grandeur and prestige" (from Bodiam Castle: A Formidable Fortress or a Noble Palace?). Of course, if there was an actual threat of military action, such as in the Welsh Marches, then castle owners tended to stick with the military capabilities and put the home improvements on hold. In later centuries, the Romantic movement caused the wealthy to convert old castles or build new "mock castles" which had some fake military features as decoration, but were actually mansions; Belvoir Castle is an example of the latter, or see Category:Mock castles. Alansplodge (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, there's no question: Bodiam is not a serious defensive structure. Some people would quibble over whether a non-royal is capable of building a "palace". I quite like the way that author went with "noble palace". --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dweller, the obvious exception is Blenheim Palace. Alansplodge (talk)

Yes, Alansplodge, interesting isn't it? And was Hampton Court Palace called a Palace while Wolsey was still its owner? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good point Dweller. Bishops can have palaces too; Bishopthorpe Palace, Lincoln Medieval Bishop's Palace and of course Lambeth Palace. Just to muddy the waters, the Bishop's Palace, Wells is fortified with battlements, towers and a moat, so does that make it a castle? Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it has more of a claim to being a castle than Bodiam does, despite the indignities it's suffered down the years. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:49, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that what's in that photo isn't actually the Bishop's Palace - its the fortified wall surrounding the palace grounds. The actual palace inside the grounds is much more, well, palatial, with large windows close to the ground, etc. [1] [2]. Most proper castles were designed so that the main buildings were defensible even if the outer walls were taken. Iapetus (talk) 10:41, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well Iapetus, even that can be a bit of a grey area too. Most castles had a great hall in one of the wards, usually timber and not defensible, but a 12th century stone one at Oakham Castle has survived with nice big windows and a fancy door which has no defensive features. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that in France, the term château covers everything from an 11th century fortress to a 19th century country house. Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In England, the early-/mid-15th century saw the beginning of noble residences being constructed for comfort over defence: the best surviving example of the period is probably Tattershall Castle, built by Ralph, Lord Cromwell between 1430x1450. Note the location: it was only in the southeast that this kind of project was deemed either possible or sensible. As noted above, in the border regions—including, of course, the coast—they retained their original purpose. R. L. Storey commented on the difference between the residence of a member of Henry VI's southern nobility compared to a northern magnate, in the context of a wedding between Sir Thos Neville and Maud Stanhope in August 1453. During Maude Stanhope’s wedding at Tattershall, he suggests that Thomas' father, the Earl of Salisbury, may well have admired Cromwell's new "renaissance" castle with all its creature comforts. But, says Storey, Salisbury doubtless "would have thought how feeble Tattershall's brickwork splendour compared with the cliff-like masonry of Sheriff Hutton and the sturdy keep of Middleham".^[1]——SN 54129 13:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Storey, R. L. (1999). The End of the House of Lancaster (2nd ed.). Stroud: Sutton. p. 130. ISBN 978-0-75092-199-2.

Inclusion of my name and profile[edit]

I wish to include my name and profile in wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibreigns86 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ibreigns86: If you mean you want to create a user page, read WP:UP and go ahead and create User:Ibreigns86.

If you mean you want an article about you, read WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY for why that's a bad idea and follow these instructions if you still want to try anyway. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Storey, R. L. (1999). The End of the House of Lancaster (2nd ed.). Stroud: Sutton. p. 130. ISBN 978-0-75092-199-2.

[1]