Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jan Goossenaerts: Difference between revisions

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Jan Goossenaerts

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He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country. Fails WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete couldn't find anything of use in google news. Secret ^account 16:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. -- Jujutacular ^talk 17:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep hes a supercentenarian, and hes been the oldest man in the country for years, and if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country. Longevitydude (talk) 18:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Being the oldest verified man in a continent is notable, and I know some people who have access to other articles about him.Longevitydude (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Why is it notable to be 100? Why not 97? Why not 103? Even the Lists of centenarians says you need to be notable for something other than being old to be included. This guy is old. So? The youngest person in Europe was born 0.0004 seconds ago. SO?? — Timneu22 · talk 18:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hes a SUPERcentenarian, hes at least 110, that was a list of centenarians, not 110+ year olds, and being the oldest man in a continent is notable. The article is because hes the oldest man in Europe, not just because of his age. Longevitydude (talk) 19:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Did it say, other than being oldEST, this guy is the continent's oldEST verified man. Longevitydude (talk) 19:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        So, simply being alive is notable? Certainly that doesn't fit under WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 19:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        According to a recent physical, I'm alive. But I'm definitely not notable. So that can't be it. David in DC (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The logic for inclusion is faulty. Someday--perhaps very soon--this man will die. He will then no longer be the oldest person within a given geographical area. What will be the justification for the article THEN? The even less notable "He USED to be the oldest person within a given geographical area"? Or "Here lie the bones of a guy who was briefly non-notable for being the oldest person in a geographical area"? He is not sufficiently notable now, and the moment he dies he becomes completely non-notable. Let's not wait till then. Let's delete it now, because we're only going to have to delete it later. True notability is not something that expires with death. Qworty (talk) 19:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Notability is not temporary, he will still be notable because he HAD the title, and when you live that long then you can have the nerve to say simply being alive, and yes, its easier to be a professional athlete than a supercentenarian, there are more athletes than male supercentenarians. Longevitydude (talk) 19:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Back that up with numbers. What percentage of people are professional athletes? What percent are supercentenarians? The differences, according to our guidelines, is that these athletes get constant significant coverage, where as an old person gets none. I don't care about this person, who is insignificant on just about all accounts. 100 years from now LeBron James will still have some sorts of records that are compared. This guy will not be important at all, just like now. — Timneu22 · talk 19:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.lanouvellegazette.be/actualite/societe/2009-10-31/doyen-belges-109-descend-encore-escaliers-737237.shtml&ei=9brRTJ2vKIO78gaC8MTPDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CEMQ7gEwCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJan%2BGoossenaerts%2B110%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26rlz%3D1R2ADSA_enUS394%26prmd%3Dfd

There were articles about him before he became a supercentenarian, so don't talk about one event hes had coverage for his birthdays way before 110, and the other event is becoming the oldest man in the continent. Longevitydude (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How is Being the oldest any less notable then being the tallest, shortest, or heaviest? their all in guinness world records Longevitydude (talk) 19:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Guinness is a reliable source. But it is not a guarantor of notability. Guinness has its standards for notability. We have ours. They are not coterminous. The tallest, shortest or heaviest person ever might be notable for our purposes. The current tallest, shortest or heaviest person in Europe? Not so much. David in DC (talk) 20:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I believe there's no policy or guideline that decrees that being the oldest man in (or perhaps on) a continent is, per se, notable. I've occasionally believed six impossible things before breakfast, so I could be wrong. If I am, please show me where to look. (Interesting, but probably not dispositive, is the fact that one of the "impossible things" in the White Queen's oration to Alice is a claim to be a centenarian.)

We edit articles one at a time hereabouts, so I'm not sure that "...if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country" is particularly relevant. One need not delete speedily if an article about a living person doesn't include unsourced derogatory information, and I don't think anyone's contending that a longevity claim is derogatory, so we've got an eternity to deal with these other pages.

I'm inclined to agree that the quoted language from the centenarian list ought to apply to super-centenarians (and even super-duper-centenarians), as well. But we need not reach that far to resolve this case. All we need do is determine if being the oldest man in Europe, absent any other special, reliable, verifiable characteristics or achievements, is sufficiently notable to warrant an article on en.wikipedia. Per nom, I think not. David in DC (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Commment: Nomination simply says "He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country." Europe is not a country. Second, I know we've had lots of AfDs on supercentenarians before, as we have tons of articles on them, so the nomination by itself doesn't tell me why we should delete this one over any other one. E.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martha Graham (supercentenarian). If not kept, the content needs to be merged into an article such as List of American supercentenarians, as was done in the case of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Nelson (supercentenarian). In this case it would be List of European supercentenarians--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 21:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not an idiot; the intro said "Belgian Supercentenerian", so that's what the nomination was talking about. I stand by the GNG failure, and I think that there should be a policy or at least some results about old people. If anything, these should be non-linked people on some list page. It's doubtful that these people are actually notable for doing something other than breathing. — Timneu22 · talk 22:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment/Keep You can't even spell "supercentenarian". I think the article should stick, he is the oldest living male in Europe; if all else fails we should at least merge his article into List of Belgian supercentenarians, but I'd rather avoid that. Brendan (talk, contribs) 01:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a fucking typo. Get over yourself. The answer here is probably to put this person on one of these list pages, but not as a redirect. — Timneu22 · talk 11:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians. He's gotten written up in newspapers,[1][2][3][4] but all they really say is, other than him being the oldest European man, that he's fairly healthy, and has some children and grandchildren. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I think this article and any others like it, including the links provided from other AfDs above, should be deleted without a redirect, and the name of the person (and any one- or two-sentence blurb about them) should be on the list page. I think we need a policy for this type of person, who is clearly not otherwise notable. Let the person be searched for in some results, but no reason to keep a redirect to the page. — Timneu22 · talk 11:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lets not call other people ugly names, and lets not cuss, that just makes your side look weak, attack the arguements, not the person.Longevitydude (talk) 13:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please show me where I attacked a user. — Timneu22 · talk 14:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - well since you said please: you said It's a fucking typo. Get over yourself. and you called Sarah palin an idiot, and shes not even part of the discussion.Longevitydude (talk) 14:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Please show me where I attacked a user. I didn't. I commented on a fucking typo. The Sarah Palin link was a joke (since she thinks Africa is a country). Dude, lighten up. — Timneu22 · talk 14:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - I need to lighten up, sir im not the one cussing up a storm, and if I remember correctly, obama thinks theres 57 states. Longevitydude (talk) 14:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        My comment was related, since I was being accused of calling Europe a country. Your comment about Obama is simply to do what? Anyhow, let's get back on topic. Old people belong on lists, not with individual articles. They aren't notable. — Timneu22 · talk 14:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I personally enjoyed the idiot comment, and it was in response to me.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 14:31, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Thanks, dude. — Timneu22 · talk 14:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        your welcome, my obama comment was to show that hes no smarter than you make palin out to be Longevitydude (talk) 15:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't think this sub-discussion could get any more off topic. I agree that it does make sense to have some guidelines formulated to deal with these AfDs, just like we have tried to do with bilateral relations articles (without success), public school articles (keep all verified high schools, generally redirect middle/elementary schools to district articles), etc. The fact is, when an article is only one sentence, it makes more sense as a matter of organization to include that information in a larger article and create a redirect. Someone who happens to read about this guy may also be interested in other Belgian/European supercentenarians. The number of readers searching only for this person will not be many.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 16:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete because he just recently became a supercentenarian. He isn't like Frederica Sagor Maas, who, now validated, has been recognized by other sources rather than just her nearby/local newspaper. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 15:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hes known for something other than being a male supercentenarian, hes the oldest verified man in the continent, how is that not notable.Longevitydude (talk) 15:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - We understand your position. You don't need to reply to everyone's "delete" vote. — Timneu22 · talk 17:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - What rule did I break this time? Longevitydude (talk) 18:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I just listed an article that has more information on him. Longevitydude (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep because male supercentenarians are already very rare Petervermaelen 18:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The nom's very much in error. The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them. Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him? He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world. Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in recorded history. That's not notable? RGTraynor 18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: RGTraynor has a good point about WP:GNG, in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.David in DC (talk) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:
- http://www.rtlinfo.be/info/belgique/societe/748989/essen-celebre-l-homme-le-plus-age-d-europe
  - I don't read french. Does this say anything besides the fact that he's currently the oldest man in Europe? As I've said above, I don't believe there's any guidline or policy that says being the current oldest man on a continent confers per se notability. I asked for guidance to find such a guideline or policy. None has been mentioned yet. David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- just get an account on http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/ and youll find more information on him, and a lot more articles, try it. Longevitydude (talk) 19:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - A yahoo group? Why should it matter what it says there? There are lots of yahoogroups. They can be centered on a nearly infinite number of topics that are notable to the self-selected members of that group. And if the members of a such a yahoo group, no matter how eminent they may be in their own minds or the minds of others, can successfully band together to teach the world about their particular interest niche, and accrete whatever it is they find notable into wikipedia, regardless of WP:GNG, we have a much bigger problem than this one article. That bigger problem should be addressed elsewhere. But in the meantime, let's stick with reliable sources and refrain from recruiting people to join a yahoo group and become enlightened. David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- heres some videos
  - http://video.rtlinfo.be/video/230239.aspx?
  - http://www.nieuwsblad.be/video/videoplayer.aspx?videoid=10217727
- yes he has gotten coverage for years.Longevitydude (talk) 19:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Again, I don't understand the language. Do these say anything more than that this subject is the current oldest man in Europe and that he's got a couple generations of progeny? Without more, my editorial judgment is that this does not meet WP:GNG David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- would http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_World%27s_Oldest_People this website count as good guidelines?Longevitydude (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Heck, no. "[T]his website" is a yahoo group that's morphed itself into a wiki-project, complete with talk page discussions about who the project's leader is and how its purpose is to advance knowledge about old people, (rather than, for instance, to build an encyclopedia). "[T]his website" is a symptom of the bigger problem I mentioned above. Discussions about it belong elsewhere, and, are indeed taking place elsewhere. Let's just stick with the root question raised by this AfD - Is being the current oldest man in Europe, without more, enough to establish notability on en.wikipedia. Not in Guinness. Not in the view of a yahoo group. Not in the view of a band of wikipedia editors who've founded a wiki-project to advance education about their own particularistic niche topic. But, rather, under the clear language of WP:GNG. Editors may differ, in good faith, about the answer to this question. It's a matter of editorial judgment about how WP:GNG applies to this specific subject.David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 *'''Keep:''' The nom's very much in error.  The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article."  Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them.  Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him?  He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world.  Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in ''recorded history.''  That's not notable? [[User:RGTraynor|'''<span style="background:Blue;color:Cyan"> &nbsp;RGTraynor&nbsp;</span>''']] 18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
+**Comment: RGTraynor has a good point about [[WP:GNG]], in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate [[WP:NOT|what Wikipedia is not]].[[User:David in DC|David in DC]] ([[User talk:David in DC|talk]]) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: