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[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}|Main case page]] ([[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}|Talk]]) — [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}/Evidence|Evidence]] ([[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}/Evidence|Talk]]) — [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}/Workshop|Workshop]] ([[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}/Workshop|Talk]]) — [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}/Proposed decision|Proposed decision]] ([[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/{{{case name}}}/Proposed decision|Talk]])

Case clerk: [[User:{{{clerk1}}}|{{{clerk1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{clerk1}}}|Talk]]) Drafting arbitrator: [[User:{{{draft arb}}}|{{{draft arb}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{draft arb}}}|Talk]])

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

If it is found that I (Blackash) have been editing in good faith, been civil and willing to compromise to the improvement of the article. I would like to be un-topic banned.

1) I feel I was unfairly Topic banned at the ANI, as my editing behavior wasn't looked at. It seemed more about trying to settle the discussion down and as WhatamIdoing said I ended up being collateral damage, of the fire them all approach.

2) The article talk page had been settled down between 21 Oct 2010 - 16 Feb 2011. The Tree shaping article was edited by me and others during this quiet time. This latest flare up started because of the removal of the alternative names from the lead. diff One of which was Arborsculpture, which is the only alternative name that Martin Hogbin and Johnuniq were concerned about.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

I request clarification of WPs stance on editing articles then referencing those articles in off-wiki activities

1) Blackash has worked to keep the title of the Tree shaping article from reverting to Arborsculpture (the first non-stub title) as it was coined by her professional rival, and has subsequently followed its usage around the web and discouraged garden related websites from using it, citing the Tree shaping WP article. She has done this on over one hundred sites already and has expressly said she sees nothing wrong with it. Of course referencing WP is in itself perfectly ok. However editing for the purposes of keeping the name from reverting to Arbo, and therefore ensuring those posts remain accurate, seems to violate WP:SOAP and is therefore not an acceptable reason to edit from how I understand that policy, but I could be wrong as it is not clearly stated. I request specific clarification of this point.

See here for details. Colincbn (talk) 16:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Please note: I agree with her that the title should not be Arborsculpture. Colincbn (talk) 16:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You may be right Colin but that is not a decision that we should make here. We need to look at the whole subject of article title again, after the arbitration has been completed, as though the two COI editors had never been involved. We just need to follow WP policy on the subject. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Blackash's activity in editing the article in order to support her outside interests this, to my mind, is clearly wrong. If there is not a policy which prohibits this there should be one. Martin Hogbin (talk)

Comment My objection to Arborsculpture has nothing to do with who coined the word. If Pooktre was being suggested for the title I would also object. As it leads to Pete Cook and I. Arborsculpture leads to one person (Richard Reames),www.arborsmith.com/www.arborsculpture.com (his website), or his books. Easily checked, google it. The vast majority of my comments online about wikipedia's title change, was in the months after the title change. Blue Rasberry tried to address this for Colincbn [1]. I can't recalling even one comment in the last 20 months or so where I've pointed to wikipedia.

As I didn't offer any suggestions for the title before the change, I don't see how this is editing wikipedia to suit where I've commented online about the title. I haven't been editing to keep the title at Tree shaping. Colincbn knows I've been part of the discussions about changing the title. One example diff I believe Colincbn's repeated suggestion of "...therefore ensuring those posts remain accurate..." is not assuming good faith. I have been editing the article to create a balanced view reflecting cite-able sources. I believe a quick look at before the title change and now supports the article is now more balanced. Blackash have a chat 01:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bluerasberry is not an admin. And if you can come up with one editor who thinks it is fine, I can come up with three who don't. That is why I am asking for Clarification. I don't know if this is considered wrong or not, I think it should be but I don't make the rules. That is why I am asking. Regardless of when you made the posts you have never expressed that you feel there is anything wrong with your behaviour regarding them. That's fine, but I have no reason to think you wont be continuing to do it. If it is something that is frowned upon we need admins to point it out. That way you and I will both know and we can modify our behaviour accordingly.

And please stop building strawmen, you have specifically said your agenda (if you have one) is to keep your art from being labeled with someone else's term. Is this incorrect? Your actions on those websites show you are making a concerned effort to keep the word Arborsculpture from becoming the de facto name for your art. You say it leads to Reames, but if all of those web pages started using it to mean the art as a whole then it would in fact become the standard name. You have been trying to prevent that. That is also fine, but I think using WP as a tool for doing that is right out. You have become very wiki-savvy in the last 20 months but this is still the reason you came here. And you have given me no reason to think your reasons have changed. I do whole heartedly accept you have benifited the project in other ways in that time as well and I hope you continue editing and continue to improve the project. Colincbn (talk) 02:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn, It is not my fault that you either, don't think I have a valid point or you don't get what I trying to say. It not polite to repeatedly go on about strawmen. The fact Arborsculpture leads to Slowart/Reames has always been one of the core issues. In my first edit to the talk page I tried demonstrate this by commenting about how no artist in this field uses the word Arborsculpture for their work. 16 August 2008 It wasn't until my 5th-10th edit (depends if you count formatting/signing ) on the talk page, I thought to demonstrate the issue by stating "...put Arborsculpture into Google..." 9 October 2008 Googling Arborsculpture then got the same result as today, the links lead to Richard Reames and his methods/books.

All my comments online were clarifying who created the trees shown in the images, their owners' preferred name, that Arborsculpture relates to Richard Reames methods and the title change at wikipedia. I haven't bother with pointing to wikipedia for the last 20 months or so, as I now demonstrate about the name of the art-form with the published books on this field. Blackash have a chat 08:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do not disagree that Arbo is associated with Reames and is not the preferred name of the art for many practitioners. I never said it was, and attacking my statements as if that is what I am saying is a logical fallacy called a strawman argument. It was never my point that Arbo does not lead to Reames nor that it is the agreed upon term in the artistic community. My point is that A: You have worked to keep new practitioners and those being introduced to the art through online sources from thinking that it is the agreed upon term (and them maybe using the word themselves), and B: you have pointed to the WP article as proof that it is not the agreed upon term, and C: you have subsequently edited the article to show that it is not the agreed upon term, and to squarely place it as a term only used by one artist. I think that is using WP as a tool to further off wiki activities.

Quote: Hi this is Becky form Pooktre. Arborsculpture relates to Richard Reames’s method of shaping trees. At Wikipedia there was a consensus that a neutral name was needed for the artform, and Tree shaping was decided upon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_shaping. You may be also interested in visiting this website http://www.treeshapers.net [Please Note: treeshapers.net is a website run by Blackash/Becky] which shows photos from all the different tree shapers from around the world.

Nothing about this mentions any images of other artist's work nor their preffered name as you stated it does.

Note: I see nothing wrong with A and B above, just with A, B, and C together. But I am not sure what the official stance on this currently is, so I am requesting clarification. Colincbn (talk) 10:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn you did state this "...as it was coined by her professional rival,..." This part of your comment is what I was rebutting in my last comments. Who is going to believe a statement of xyz with out the reasoning behind the statement. So I demonstrate my points of

I don't care who coins what.
and that I do have issue with any word that leads to one place.

with examples as I did in my comments above. This quote of yours also shows yet again your misunderstandings of my comments. Please give a diff to my comment that lead you to this belief and I will try to clarify it for you.

A: The vast majority of my comments I've laid out the facts in a neutral manner.

B: Wikipedia happens to been the only place were there has been discussion with close to half of people from the field about the name of the art-form. So until I thought to point to the published books it was the logical place to point to.

C: I have edited the article to reflected what the sources are saying. I have always been willing to type up the content from the sources so other editors can check that my editing is not taking the content out of context. diff I have suggested if Slowart felt a view was unfairly represent, he should add the alternative view/s with citations, and for him to please read WP:YESPOV diff

As to my online comments, the vast majority were Pooktre images branded with Arborscuplture (submitted by Richard Reames). In most of those cases I've just commented with the short quote you have given. When it was other Artists' work I would then go into detail of who they are and their preferred name. Some examples [2] [3] [4] Blackash have a chat 01:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blackash as for your points: A: I have not been debating that. B: I have not been debating that. C: I have not been debating that.

Do you see why I have so often used the term Straw man? As for you not caring about who "coined" the word. Fine, I retract my statement, and replace it with the longer statement "Because she claims the term leads to one man, who is her professional rival, who also happens to be the person who coined the word". Colincbn (talk) 02:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, my A B C are all in reply to your A B C statements. We (Pete and I) don't see Richard Reames as a rival, which I've stated on wikipedia before. Please give diff where I have claimed he is. Blackash have a chat 03:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Claiming that I am saying the things your points counter, when I am in fact not saying them, is called a straw man argument. Please stop doing that. Nothing in your A~C points above addresses what I am actually saying. Also I don't think anyone here (especially Slowart) would agree that you are not in a rivalry with Reames [Note: Slowart is Richard Reames and Blackash is Becky Northey. Both mentioned in the article and noted as having potential CoIs at the top of the Talk page. Both are currently topic banned from this article]. In fact you yourself likened this dispute to a game of chess and claimed he would "still have players on the board" if you were topic banned. Using this metaphor with him as your opponent makes it clear you see him as a rival diff. But if you prefer I will use the word "opponent" from now on, even though it is longer to type and means the same thing. Colincbn (talk) 04:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not claiming anything for you, I'm replying to your statements. Please don't put words into my mouth this in not the first time you have tried this. One example Colincbn's diff my rebuttal.

The metaphor of "game of chess", I used this to illustrate how Slowart has other editors who stated they believe the title should be Arborsclpture and are willing to try to get the title changed. We don't see Richard Reames as a rival. His obsessive concern is about the naming the art form. In my opinion to be a rival he would need to be an expert in shaping trees. Which he is not, as the results of his methods show (which is why he has repeatedly edited them off article). I have repeatedly asked Duff and Slowart for evidence he is an established expert and never received any. Blackash have a chat 06:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok seriously, do you not see the irony in you going on about how another artist who's methods you disagree with is not an expert, even though he has written two books on the subject and teaches it in a college course. Calling his work substandard and him obsessed with the name of the art, even though you have followed the subject around the Internet and spent god-knows how many hours on telling people what the art should be called. And in the same exact post saying you don't see him as a rival? Whatever. Look why do you object to using a name on WP that can't be used as the de facto name of the art? It will fix all these problems and you can go on posting whatever you want to other webpages with no worries here. Colincbn (talk) 06:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and you were not replying to any statements I made, claiming you were is a straw man argument, please stop doing that. Colincbn (talk) 07:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1.1) Writing a book or two doesn't make the author an expert. Both books are self-published by a non expert and fall under WP:SPS. Unless Slowart can prove he was an expert at the time of writing his books.

1.2) Slowart/Reames teaches at a John C. Campbell Folk School, for a week each year. [5] I'm sorry I didn't realize this would be classed as a college course.

2.) Richard himself states in his book he is obsessed.

3.) I didn't state "his work substandard" (again Colincbn stop putting words in my mouth). I stated he is not an expert in shaping trees which his results show, a picture says a thousand words. Short discussion about Richard's bench image. Colincbn as you know we have been acknowledged has having the best trees in the world. I have the knowledge to know what I'm talking about.

4.) Colincbn please read my quote you have put up, I'm not telling people what to call the art form. (Please stop putting spin on my comments) I'm stating Arborsculpture is Richards, there had been a consensus for a neutral name and here a couple of links.

5.) I have already stated why I don't agree a long term is need for the title on my talk page. discussion

6.) As to your straw man allegation I don't agree that I have been. Blackash have a chat 08:37, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look the "Workshop phase" of arbitration is supposed to be over today, the 19th. So I don't plan on spending much more time on this. I will say that not in all your numbered points above nor in your points A~C do you address my clearly stated three concerns. You have argued semantics about whether the correct word is the one I used or not, you have brought up things I am not disputing, you have claimed someone is not an expert because you are one and you say so, and you have ignored the actual points I have brought up. So I will make it very simple for you:

~~I feel~~ My claim is that: A: You have worked to keep new practitioners and those being introduced to the art through online sources from thinking that Arborsculpture is the agreed upon term
Do you disagree with this statement? Yes / No
If yes:
Why?

~~I feel that~~ My claim is that: B: You have pointed to the WP article on outside webpages as proof that Arborsculpture is not the agreed upon term.
Do you disagree with this statement? Yes / No
If yes:
Why?

~~I feel that My~~ claim is that: You have subsequently edited the article to show that it is not the agreed upon term.
Do you disagree with this statement? Yes / No
If yes:
Why?

Now in cases where there is no controversy, like mathematics (HA!), something like this might be ok. For example if a professor posted a scientifically accepted fact on outside pages then subsequently edited WP to clarify what the scientific consensus is. That might be considered perfectly fine. But in cases where the subject is in dispute among professional ~~rivals~~ opponents this seems way off base to me. I would like clarification of this from ArbCom. Do you have a problem with getting clarification? If so Why? Colincbn (talk) 11:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I love the things you leave out example my quote "I have repeatedly asked Duff and Slowart for evidence he is an established expert and never received any." I'm saying he is not an expert because he hasn't given any evidence that he is. Colincbn sorry I'm not doing the "I feel" argument again [6], been there done that, it seems you like the wiggle room it gives you. Short discussion Long discussion with diffs. Back up your claims with diffs that actually say what you are claiming. Blackash have a chat 13:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not "wiggle room" it is called making accurate statements. But ok, what would qualify as evidence he is an expert to you? Colincbn (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Wiggle room" is about you using the terminology "I feel". Blackash have a chat 13:49, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I struck the "I feel" from my points above, now will you address the issues? Colincbn (talk) 13:26, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, Back up your claims with diffs that actually say what you are claiming Blackash have a chat 13:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are asking for me to provide "diffs" for things that did not happen on Wikipedia. That is kind of weird, but I will do the best I can. This is where my claims for points A and B come from. As for Point C I think we can both agree that it is clear why I make this claim without forcing me to go digging through the massive amount of text involved. But since I imagine you will do it anyway here we go: [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]

So, now that that little bit of unpleasantness is behind us will you address my points? And what kind of evidence would you agree serves to qualify Slowart/Reames as an expert? Are you asking for diffs from WP that prove he is an expert in the field of shaping trees? He is mentioned in the article already. You have even edited his section yourself. Is that not enough? What evidence do you require? You have said you have the best shaped trees in the world so you know he is not an expert, but that is not really empirical evidence is it? Can you give me evidence he is not an expert in spite of his books, teaching position, and website(s)? Colincbn (talk) 14:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn your link to google search of Hi Becky Pooktre Arborsculpture Wikipedia shows links to my quote that you have already posted here in your comment above.

Re-posted Quote: Hi this is Becky form Pooktre. Arborsculpture relates to Richard Reames’s method of shaping trees. At Wikipedia there was a consensus that a neutral name was needed for the artform, and Tree shaping was decided upon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_shaping. You may be also interested in visiting this website http://www.treeshapers.net [Please Note: treeshapers.net is a website run by Blackash/Becky] which shows photos from all the different tree shapers from around the world. end quote. (Blackash comment I didn't suggest any titles names before the article name change. Please check out tree shapers practitioners I believe this shows how I edit neutrally with out pushing any name.)

Well I have already address your A, B and C statements diff. My replies are attempts to answer you, if you chose to state they are straw man that is your choice.

Finding these diffs must have taken like... 5 mins, as Martin had already put these up on the evidence page. Two of these diffs Colincbn you where part of the discussion and already know my reasoning behind my edits. All of these diffs I have already addressed, the first 5 in this discussion section. I'll list where in the discussion, after each of Martin/Colincbn examples so it is easy to find my reasoning.

Martin/Colincbn example 2nd bullet point.
Martin/Colincbn example 3rd bullet point.
Martin/Colincbn example 11th bullet point.
Martin/Colincbn example 13th bullet point or 5th bullet point from the bottom.
Martin/Colincbn example 16th bullet point or 2nd last bullet point
Martin/Colincbn example This diff is where I started a discussion, instead of editing the page directly due to potential COI. This I had also addressed for Martin here.

Colincbn thank you for giving the link to google and the diffs. I now see that your statements A,B and C are your interpretation. Now other editors can look at the information and decide for themselves. Blackash have a chat 13:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You were the one who told me to get diffs! Of course I already knew your stance! We all do, but you said you would not address my points until I had provided diffs so I did. I repeatedly do exactly what you ask and you still refuse to address my points. I am not even saying you were definitely wrong to do it, I think it is not cool but since I'm not sure of the policy on this I'm just asking for clarification. Yet you still approach this as if it is some kind of battle, and it is not my choice to call a straw man a straw man, it is just reality. Whatever. I am not going to try to engage you in an actual discussion about this anymore. According to the guidelines on ArbCom cases the workshop phase should have ended yesterday. So I am done here. All we can do now is wait for the committee's decision. Cheers, Colincbn (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn, Sorry you see it as battling, I just don't like you twisting my comments to mean something other than what I was actually stating. You are again changing my comment to make me seem unreasonable. What I said was quote "No, Back up your claims with diffs that actually say what you are claiming." That is not saying I'll reply if you will supply diffs. I also have repeatedly stated I have replied to your statements. That you view I haven't, doesn't change my view that I have. Blackash have a chat 23:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like some clarification on WP policy regarding this point. Above is a demonstrative example of the kind of arguing that consumes so much time on the talk page for the article in question.duff 22:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Template

3)

Question for all parties

Just what you might call a sense check. I'm not getting the impression that there is any/much what you might call "normal" bad behaviour - incivility, repeated mindless reverting etc. I'm not even getting the impression that this is advertising in the usual way that is understood - no-one is trying to persuade us to buy shares. The big issue here is the conflict of interest, with several parties having a commercial interest in the subject, and potentially standing to gain advantage if Wikipedia uses their word for this artform.

Do people feel this is right? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a fair assessment. My impression is that there is good faith all around, the COI editors have declared their COI, everything is discussed, and the other editors genuinely believe they're doing right by wikipedia. My only question is whether there is financial gain involved. I get the impression (more a gut impression than anything else) that the various COI editors are in this more for getting recognition of their version of the art rather than for any commercial advantage. This, unfortunately for arbcom :) is one of those 'everyone is a good guy' situations. --rgpk (comment) 18:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our concern is not financial. For us (my partner and I), we just don't want our art branded by a name that leads to a different artist and uses a different method. We would have same the complaint if the proposed title was changed to any artists brand name (including Pooktre). We don't want or need brand anyone with Pooktre, our trees are widely accepted as the best in the world. The world will one day settled on a name for the art-form, we watch trees grow we can wait. It not the same for Richard Reames, he needs the creditability he gets from branding of other artists. To sell his books, methods and trees (groups of whips(unbranched small trees)). It is his lively hood and as a added bonus immortality for being known as the father of Arborsculpture if he successes in having every shaped tree called "Arborsculpture". This is the reason he has been trying to remove his method and any images of his trees from the article, he doesn't want people to be able to compare the different between methods and results. Blackash have a chat 16:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. Blackash has persistently tried to control the page either by editing or by barracking people on the talk page in order to promote her view of the subject. The sheer volume and persistence of her discussion makes it impossible for other editors to base their editing on WP policies. I agree with RegentsPark that it may be more about personal recognition and standing than money. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Martin the trouble I have in discussions with you is you don't stick to content and how wiki policies applies, you give vague answers and quickly change to COI or just don't reply to content questions. Blackash have a chat 16:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the action of Blackash in canvassing on the web for recognition of of a name, based on a claimed consensus in WP, thus creating more sources to support her preferred name is a threat to the integrity of WP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Martin I repeatedly have offered real suggestions for the title name that meet wiki policies and that were not tree shaping, I know you were there two of the times I've done this. You also know I created a set tables showing sources and quotes for the different title suggestions. Yet you still seem to believe I'm pushing for the title tree shaping on wiki. Please believe me when I tell you again I don't care what the title is as long as it doesn't lead to one artist or has a method linked to it. One that meet wiki policies as well would be good. Blackash have a chat 16:11, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blackash, your comment in italics demonstrates your COI here. You do not have the right to insist that the title does not lead pack to a particular person. The title should depend only on the most common term in sources. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blackash's comment is perfectly fine. A name that leads to a single artist (and their books..) presents NPOV issues, which is a legitimate cause for concern. I share that sentiment and have no COI. AfD hero (talk) 19:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your response shows how even non-COI editors can be drawn into trying to give equal benefit to those with an interest in the subject. That is not our job, our job is to reflect the world as it is (shown in sources). If everyone uses a name that leads back to one person, that is the name we must use. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Martin, if all sources did use a name, it wouldn't matter if it all did lead to one person but they don't. In point of fact the title as it is now has the most references both in number and from secondary sources. An interesting question is, if all sources used a name would it lead to one person in an art form? I don't think so. I do have the right to point out where a title, or an edit change doesn't meet wiki policies. I don't go to a discussion page and state you can't do that, I clearly and logically list how and why wiki policies applies. Then other editors can decide weather my point/s are valid Blackash have a chat 23:32, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I might add that Blackash has been critical of editors who do not see her POV, maybe not quite personal attacks in most cases. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that is an accurate assessment of the situation. Colincbn (talk) 01:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize, when I see you guys stating an untruth (not base on logic but a truth that feels true) or a half truth as a fact I have stated you were lying. I'm sorry I will not use this terminology again. Blackash have a chat 16:11, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have followed this issue since June 2010 when I made my first comment at the article talk (agreeing with Martin Hogbin about what "tree shaping" means, diff), and I do not think there has been any bad behavior. The problem is that Blackash has used the Internet to promote certain views regarding her business (particularly that "tree shaping" is the correct name), and that procedure has been used at Wikipedia. The reason that arbitration is required is that no one has the motivation or patience (not even Slowart) to continue opposing the subtle POV changes that have occurred in the article over a very long period (for example, after a period of relative stability, this edit in February 2011 by Sydney Bluegum removed mention of "arborsculpture" from the lead of the article, leading to yet another slow edit war with everyone behaving well). Johnuniq (talk) 02:06, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If the title had been changed to Tree training or Tree art I would have used that name on the internet to point to. Blackash have a chat 23:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your responses. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question to Sydney Bluegum

You only edit this article. There is nothing wrong with this - we have other editors that just edit one article, or a handful of related articles. However, I wonder if you would be willing to confirm 'on the record' as it were, and without outing yourself, if you have any commercial or professional connection to or interest in any of the artists connected with this artform. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have no commercial or professional connection or interest in any of the artists. I came to wikipedia as an end user to find out more about the practise of tree training. I have tried to grow articles without much success. I admire the work of the artists, living and dead. I then became involved in the discussion page and decided to contribute and find out about the methods that practitioners use. Within 3 edits I was accused as being a sockpuppet. The atmosphere has been hostile. Editors ignore you and misinturpute what you say or repeat the same topic - the name. The edit I did on 14 Feb 2011 was following wiki policy about alternate names. I also removed other alternate names not just "arborsculpture" as the article had a list of alternate names.

I have been accused of being the life partner of Blackash. I have no partner.

I believe that the name should "Tree Shaping" be found not suitable, be "tree training" as this meets all requirements in that it does not lead to one person, is neutral, and is not a neologism. I believe it would be appropriate as it is what Axel Erlandsen called his craft.I have stated this several times, both Blackash and Slowart have agreed to this in the past.

I contacted FETCHCOMMS early in the process as to the conduct of editors on the page but was replyed to by Chezz stating that I should edit lots and improve my editing. This was not my purpose for being at wiki. Although I have done a small amount of editing, I was happy with the discussion for Fantasy V Reality, and Is it an Art or Craft and the changes that eventuated.

I dont know how to do diffs. Could you please provide me with a link. Thanks Sydney Bluegum (talk) 01:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

diff guide! (: AfD hero (talk) 03:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your answer Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:SilkTork

Remaining civil and on topic is taken for granted; the point here is that using all the dispute resolution options available and getting advice and assistance from 100 people and still neither side backing down but continuing, however sweetly and well focused, on the same trivial issue so we end up at ArbCom is disruptive. The time I and others have spent helping out on this issue is time we have not been getting on with building the encyclopaedia - we have been disrupted from building the encyclopaedia. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 14:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand now what you mean, but that isn't clear from the single line principle above. To me it implies actively disruptive behaviour (edit warring, incivility, etc) rather than passively disruptive (being a time sink). Perhaps phrasing it something like "Disputes that are long running and pull in other users are an unproductive use time that participants could otherwise use to improve the encyclopaedia" would better, although less pithy.Thryduulf (talk) 22:22, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Users who knowingly edit against consensus are disruptive

4) Users who knowingly edit a disputed article against consensus and agreed remedy are disruptive.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment What was Slowart thinking when he did this [13] By having his Reames account signature mimic Blackash's signature in color and writing style.Is this being civil? Sydney Bluegum (talk) 11:29, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't remember what I was thinking Mum, don't see anything uncivil by it.Slowart (talk) 03:45, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree: User:Blackash has repeatedly accused several other users, including me, of lying. I do not consider that civil. Here are several diffs: [14], [15],[16], [17], and finally right here in this arbitration, another instance. Her extensive rebuttal is undated & though I've wasted a lot of time digging through her diffs, I cannot find a link to the corresponding diff. Thus, hopefully this will suffice [18] That rebuttal also contains several false statements that Blackash knows to be false, having participated directly in the events and pages she refers to therein. I will deal with that directly on the evidence page where those statements were made. duff 03:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I always triple check before making bold statements, if the admins would like I can find the diffs showing why I used such strong wording. Duff please do put up your diffs on the evidence page about how my statements are false. Blackash have a chat 14:26, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please stand by for liftoff on that. Do you want to restate any part of what you submitted as evidence there before I do? Maybe you meant to express something else? This is me kindly urging you to reconsider whether what you typed was accurate.

Also, yes, I would very much like to see these diffs you have that prove I have lied on Wikipedia at all, ever. Don't wait for permission from the admins. Either back it up or back it down. Maybe you were wrong? Maybe I or one of the editors was wrong? Maybe you misunderstood something? Maybe you were hasty those times? Did you actually triple-check those posts, where you repeatedly accused each of us of lying, and really, are you convinced that those editors & I were all lying, all those times?

I'm giving you a couple of big lily pads to leap onto here & I encourage you to accept them gracefully. duff 18:09, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Blackash and Slowart are topic banned

1) User:Blackash and User:Slowart are banned from discussing the tree shaping topic anywhere on Wikipedia for 12 months.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

I'm not sure if there is a way to avoid banning entirely while still addressing the issues brought up here. But if there is I would prefer that to a full-topic ban. I would not mind if Blackash and Slowart continued to edit on my talkpage (or a subsection of it) for example. Both of them have an in-depth understanding of the topic that it will be hard to get from anyone else. Colincbn (talk) 03:56, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree As RegentsPark pointed out Slowart has editors who are willing to discuss what he cares about (title). I do care about the title but it isn't my main concern, I wish for the art form, in all its different aspects to shine example artists, history, methods and related practices. This is why I've added the bulk of the content to the article because I believe what wiki does is a good thing. If I hadn't been editing who else cares enough to go to the trouble of looking for hard to find refs for all the different content I've added. Realistically I don't think any one would have bothered. Banning me as a quick remedy to stop the discussions will more than a likely stop the gradual improvement of the article. Blackash have a chat 00:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree I remain uncertain as to what this will achieve. I see a fine article on a topic that is not otherwise well known and see that this is the outcome of a long running tug of war between two sets of editors. Without that tug of war, and without the knowledge that the COI editors have about this topic, I doubt if we would have had a good article like this one. Banning them seems counter-productive at best. --rgpk (comment) 20:03, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why anyone disagrees about this. It is a statement of fact. They are in fact both topic banned at this time. Colincbn (talk) 14:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You've placed this under 'proposed remedies'. People can reasonably agree or disagree with a proposal. --rgpk (comment) 17:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have not placed this anywhere, this is not my section. I just think with the wording as it is implies they are not currently topic banned, which they are. A better wording would be "Uphold Blackash and Slowart's topic ban" or something like this. Note I prefer mentorship or some other form of resolution that still allows them both to contribute. As I put forth in my section below. Colincbn (talk) 01:06, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree: The proposed remedy, as regards Blackash only, is a further extension of the present ban and is warranted. The point of the arbitration is to settle an ongoing problem that previous topic banning on only the main article space did not resolve, namely, continued COI pressuring on the talkpage. Slowart does not appear to have behaved in the same manner. I agree that Blackash should be completely topic banned, for whatever period is necessary for her to clearly understand the problem and correct it.

I don't see where "RegentsPark pointed it out", but I neither agree with nor appreciate Blackash's insinuation that Slowart 'has' other editors standing by to do his work. That seems to imply that anyone who agrees with Slowart about anything is in his pocket, which is both insulting and untrue, so far as any evidence has been shown to me. Also, a comment by Regentspark above, concerning "sets of editors" is a very similar mischaracterization, perhaps based in a faulty set of assumptions, as promulgated by Blackash. So we're clear, I don't belong to any 'set of editors' and I'm not in anyone's pocket. I am an entirely independent editor and an entirely independent person.

As for who else cares enough to look up references, I most assuredly do, and have proven so, here: [19]. That effort cost hundreds of hours & resulted in not 9 references of 92 being investigated, but instead 9 references of 92 standing up to scrutiny, as the page and all of its diffs clearly illustrate. The fact that Blackash chose to come in later on that page, in an apparent attempt to further discredit Reames/Slowart, does not impress me at all. She wasted a bunch more time, essentially duplicating a fraction of my work, and then gave up on her effort in February, after finding and discrediting the already-accepted references to Reames own work, which were used in his own bio. I am confident that this article can proceed to improve, more so, without that constant tug of war. I'm not a COI editor (despite Blackash's repeated attempts to characterize and discredit me as one) and yet I've somehow managed to contribute substantially to the article. So will other interested editors. duff 04:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

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Proposed enforcement

Sanction applied to the tree shaping topic

1) A sanction is applied to the tree shaping topic that any user who knowingly edits against consensus and any agreed remedies may be blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment That could work if there was someone to create a brief summary of what the consensus is. Making it clear for existing and new editors as to what the consensus had been. It would need to be flexible thou in-case at a later time new sources come to light, so that topic could be discussed again and a new consensus formed. Blackash have a chat 04:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment On the face of it, this appears to be reasonable. To Blackash's question, there are various formal consensus determining mechanisms (the move request on the title was one) and the main result of this sanction would be to force editors to use these mechanisms when they find their edits reverted. Knowingly, implies that the editor has tried to make a change, been informed with evidence (weak or strong) that this is against consensus, and then attempts that change again anyway. My one concern with this sanction is that, in my opinion, the greater part of the problem with this article lies on the talk page rather than in edit warring on the article page and this may end up as a toothless and pointless sanction. --rgpk (comment) 20:10, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please note the move request mentioned above was closed as "No consensus" which was certainly an accurate assessment. This is obviously not the same thing as a consensus not to move. Colincbn (talk) 04:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree: The topic itself is not the problem. The problem on the article has been solved, for the present, by the topic ban currently in place. The trouble lies now with discussions ensuing on the article's talk page. My sense is that existing protocols for editing in the mainspace should be adequate among editors committed to the encyclopedia. I also second Colincbn's note, in that consensus not to move was not found (nor sought) during the most recent move request. Neither was consensus found on not moving it to the proposed name. The field split in several interesting directions, hence, no consensus.duff 19:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

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Proposals by User:Martin Hogbin

Proposed principles

Editing of WP articles should be based on WP policy, not the requirement to give those with a commercial interest equal benefit

There are several issues of commercial interest involved in this article namely: the name of the article, the way current practitioners of the art are presented, and proprietary techniques relating to the subject.

This article started as two commercially based articles, Arborscupture, which seemed to be an attempt to promote a book, and Pooktre, which looked like a promotion of a business. When Pooktre was proposed for deletion AfDHero stepped in to combine the two articles into what was intended to be a non-commercially-based one.

The name was hastily and without sufficient discussion or consensus changed to 'Tree shaping'. It would seem to me that this was done on the basis that the article should give equal commercial benefit (or maybe no commercial benefit) to both original editors, rather than on established WP policy on the subject. This decision was, in my opinion, a complete misunderstanding of many WP policies and a misguided attempt at fair play that has dogged the article ever since.

This 'equal benefit' attitude has become so pervasive within the article and talk pages that many editors with no COI seem to use the principle in place of the relevant WP policies.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment Martin you have repeatedly been asked by different editors what in the article is commercially sensitive or "spam" (as you called on your talk page.) You are yet to give a concrete example. After the topic banning you where invited to edit the article to remove anything you saw as an issue. You have chosen not to do this, instead you make generalizations that includes nearly the whole article.

At the time of the change of title Tree shaping didn't lead to us. I gave some refs, So the new title met the neutrality and veritably policies. 4 different editors (including myself (I made no suggestions as to the name)) discussed the move, there were 5 other editors aware of the move discussion. Some of these editors came and discussed the options as to title at tree shaping talk. There were 9 different editors who discussed the title and what to do. So yes there was plenty of discussion.

I'm not surprised that you consider the neutrality to be a non issue. Your reply to my comment about Arborsculpture all leads to one artist, was basically, so what get over it. Link Blackash have a chat 05:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the stated principle in the title of this proposed principle. However, some clarification is needed as to facts of the supplemental statement that follows it.

While Pooktre clearly did begin as a commercially-based and spammy article, this article, arborsculpture clearly did not begin that way at all, but rather as an horticultural & gardening article about a practice which had been commonly referred to by others than these involved artists as arborsculpture, here: [20], on March 17, 2006. It's been through a lot of twists & turns since. I know this because when I first started editing on this article, I read through every single diff, including those of both AfD's for Pooktre.

The first introduction of a link to the commercial entity Pooktre occurred on March 22, 2006 with this IP edit [21] by 80.178.72.236 . Here [22] is the first identifiable edit to the article by User:Blackash. Its content portended the fight that was to come and which has lasted through to this day. The change to arborsculpture that proposed it as a commercial page, and also gutted its existing content, was done over a year after the article's creation, on April 12, 2007, here:[23]. It was posted by User:Primack, also an expert with a commercial interest, and was, based on the text inserted, clearly an effort to make the same point that User:Blackash has been making, specifically, that he did not wish to have his enterprise or anyone else's but Reames' work associated with this word, usage notwithstanding. It may be worth noting also that up to and including this point, not a single proper reference had been added to the article.

I also agree with the portion of the above principle elaboration statement which acknowledges this: The real problem started with the hasty renaming of arborsculpture to tree shaping by User:AfD Hero, without any discussion on the article's talk page preceding that change. It obviously fostered a good deal of bad feelings on the part of existing editors of that time and understandably so.duff 21:35, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Expert editors are welcome but they should withdraw from editing and discussion in areas where they have a COI

This is a very specialised subject and without the contributions of Blackash and Slowart, both current practitioners of the art, the article would probably not be possible, however, when there is a clear COI as is clearly the case here editors with a potential COI should withdraw from editing in the areas where the conflict arises, in this case those with commercial significance.

Comment by Arbitrators:

There's a definition thing here. WP:COI isn't the same as the policy on Arbs recusing. A WP:COI conflict of interest arises when one actually edits to progress one's own interests rather than those of the project. Just having an outside interest in the topic doesn't cause a COI - it raises the possibility that one might edit in this fashion. There is no policy requirement for an individual to withdraw from editing (let alone withdraw from discussion) where they have an academic, professional or commercial interest in the subject. If someone with such an interest actually makes edits to progress their own interests and against the interests of the project (and that includes promotional pov pushing in discussion as well as edits to articles), then they lay themselves open to sanctions. Elen on the Roads:talk to me 22:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I agree that this would be best, but how do we decide what those topics are? And who decided it? For example, obviously the name dispute is one, but the addition of the term "woody plants" drew a lot of disagreement as well. I believe because it was seen as an attempt to claim "tree Shaping" is not accurate because other plants are also used. We would need a way to decide what is and what is not "commercially sensitive" while remaining neutral.

I do feel this would be better than an all out full topic ban though. Colincbn (talk) 04:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "commercial significance" which I believe Martin stated was the practitioners, title and methods. Well that covers most of article. Don't forget the list of trees had some conflict as did the Alternative names, History and Tree shaping in fiction and art. Even the images placement and captions has been changed back and forth, so there are some issues there as well. Well that leaves References and External links, not that different from a topic ban really. Blackash have a chat 11:13, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is fairly clear in which areas you have a COI. These are: the name of the art, where you have a strong business and personal preference for 'tree shaping'; information about current practitioners of the art, because you are one; and detailed discussions of the differences between the ways different practitioners carry out the art, where you have expressed strong feelings that the way you do things is better than the way some others do them. That leaves plenty of areas where your contributions are welcome and invaluable. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly were have I stated I have a strong preference for Tree shaping? So a practitioner of Sanda, can't edit the living Sanda practitioners either? I don't believe I have ever stated our methods are better than others' methods please give link. It seems you have modified your views now there are admins watching, this diff tells a different story [24] as does this [25] quote "I think the whole article is dominated by commercial issues." Blackash have a chat 12:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure why you have quoted those diffs but I stand by them both, the article has been dominated by commercial issues. Slowart has agreed to withdraw from them you have not. Regarding your preference for 'Tree shaping', that started in 2008 or earlier as one of your refs shows. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, and I consider this basic also, but again, I do not agree with the entire statement that follows the principle. Neither Slowart nor Blackash initiated the original article (links are above, to that event). Both artists/editors have contributed extensively to their own websites also, which, along with all the other websites and references currently used in the article, could have been found and used by any uninvolved editors to develop a similarly interesting article. Those two artists' contributions could have been reflected just as gracefully by their simply suggesting & then continuing to improve their own sites, instead of arm-wrestling over whose techniques were better & who deserved the most credit.

Also, responding to Colincbn's reference to the use of the term 'woody plants': whatever it was or was not seen as, it is accurate and it does indeed illustrate one reason (among many) why the current title is inappropriate to describe the topic of the article. "Accuracy of definition is the first essential to clear thinking."...John Peter.

There should be a section (or maybe even a full article, if warranted) on the common practice of 'tree shaping', but that section, until properly developed, belongs in the article entitled arboriculture. It should cover the distinctly different, debatably less artistic & more utilitarian, and far more common practice of 'tree shaping', which is a standard part of arboriculture worldwide. This topic is not that topic. This topic, our topic, is also a very specialized form of arboriculture, which is itself a subset of horticulture (which covers both woody plants and herbaceous plants; yes, there is a difference & it is an essential distinction). Arboriculture encompasses all woody plants (not just trees), as does this craft, as the artists' own works all clearly demonstrate. duff 22:14, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to invent new names for subjects to resolve commercial disputes

The article name 'Tree shaping' was made up in an attempt to find a 'neutral' name after an essentially commercial dispute. It is not the purpose of WP to do this. We must use the name most commonly used in reliable (preferably secondary/tertiary) sources. Any commercial impact of this decision is merely a reflection how the outside world sees the situation. It is not our business to resolve commercial disputes by inventing new (or sparsely used) terms for subjects.

It would seem that I am wrong here. Despite claims that 'Tree shaping' it is 'neutral' it is actually the term preferred by Blackash since 2008 or earlier.[26] also Pooktre call themselves 'Pooktre Tree Shapers'[[27]].

As will be seen from my evidence, 'Tree shaping' is a term widely used by arborists to be something other than the subject of this article, namely the pruning of trees to maintain a natural shape. It is therefore completely unsuitable as a name for this article.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I agree absolutely that it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to create the established name for something. It's a very unusual situation, but I definitely see your concern. However, exactly the same caveat applies to all the words that the tree artists have coined for their art. Without the evidence that one term is preferred, what applies in this situation is Wikipedia's policies for this eventuality. --Elen on the Roads:talk to me 22:51, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Comment Words can have more than one meaning, this is why wiki has disambiguation pages. Wiki has a policy about broadening the title name if the current title is not neutral as is the case with Arborsculpture. Which is how Tree shaping come to be picked. It also has more secondary/tertiary sources than Arborsculpture. Tree training also has some though not as many sources. Follow link to read sources with quotes of different suggestions for the title. Blackash have a chat 11:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV also states about choosing a title quote "...might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view" Blackash have a chat 15:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As to it being our preferred term, we told the interviewer the name of our art is Pooktre, they chose not to use Pooktre and to use tree shaping. I believe it was the whole tall poppy syndrome in action.

Now an interview is proof of a person preference for a term? In that case Richard Reames must love Tree shaping as he uses Tree shaping and variations in both of his books and in interviews as well. Example Richard's first book quote "Tree trunk topiary, botanical architecture, arbortipia - all of these terms have attempted to describe an early 1900s approach to tree shaping that goes beyond such traditional practices of topiary, bonsai and espalier." Martin you knew Richard has used Tree shaping as I had given you a quote from an interview of Richard Reames for Cabinet magazine Winter 2005/06 here is my diff in reply to your question about tree shaping diff. Yet you leave that out strange.Blackash have a chat 03:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with MartinHogbin's statement & with the supporting paragraphs for it, including the correction, as written, entirely. There is much in the comment content above mine with which I do not agree, but little of it is pertinent to the statement at this heading.duff 23:51, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

The article was moved to 'Tree shaping' without consensus

There was no discussion on the 'Arborsculpture' page before the move.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Agree though there was discussion here before the move. Maybe not the best way to go about it. Blackash have a chat 01:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was on a different page and the 'discussion' seems to consist of:

I have moved Arborsculpture to Tree Shaping, added in the informations from the Pooktre article, and done some edits. AfD hero (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Hold on I disagree, where is the discussion on the move ? in the afd box of pooktre ? Perhaps a discussion at a afd box on arborsculpture ? or am I missing something ? Reames (talk) 16:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC) Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree The entire issue stemmed from this bold move, It should be reversed. Slowart (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree: This was the most recent and most critical flashpoint. It should be reversed on the simple basis that it was done with neither appropriate discussion nor necessary consensus building; in fact without any apparent awareness by most of the article's contributors.

While I believe that User:AfD Hero had good intent with this bit of boldness, it is my opinion based on a clear reading of the pertinent WP Policy (extant both then & now), WP:TITLECHANGES, that it was a wrong move. According to its footnote, that policy appears to have been adopted in 2005 following the Jguk RfArb case[28], explicitly to stop/settle precisely this sort of dispute. It's not clear to me whether AfD hero was aware of (or considered) this policy before rendering his move.

The pertinent text at the noted policy page reads, "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." The article title had been stable for nearly 3 years, from the time it was created, at the point of AfD Hero's change, which was on January 9, 2009, here: [29]. From what I can see having come in much later and read just about every diff on both the mainspace & the talkpage, it has been unstable ever since. Though Blackash pitched a fairly substantial fuss around the AfD of her commercially-based Pooktre article, I remain unconvinced of that being a good reason to change the title of the non-commercial arboriculture article.

Also, If I am correctly understanding that policy, the article title should be the one used by the first major contributor to the page after it ceased to be a stub. The article ceased being a stub on September 21, 2007, here: [30]. At that time, obviously, the page was titled arborsculpture. It's not clear to me what the definition of a major contributor is nor is it clear just which contributor that points to here, but it is clear that for the year and five months that ensued after removal of the stub tag at 9,211 bytes & before the title switch at 10,169 bytes, all of the edits took place under the title 'arborsculpture'. Both Reames/Slowart & Northey/Blackash (prior & ongoing major contributors) edited extensively during this period, as did several anonymous IP's all using the title 'arborsculpture'. The IP edits may also have been one, the other, or both of them...not sure of this or whether it is even relevant, but I believe they have acknowledged this elsewhere.duff 04:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Blackash has edited the article and talk pages with a persistent conflict of interest

I have given some of the evidence of this on the evidence page but I believe it is pretty well self-evident.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment Martin since you have commented that even discussing issues on talk pages, is editing badly with a COI, your definition is very broad. Blackash have a chat 01:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree: Both the article's history and its voluminous archives of talk pages are replete with clear examples too numerous to re-catalog.duff 04:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Slowart has a conflict of interest but has agreed to withdraw from all relevant editing

[31]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Disagree The above link shows how Slowart/Reames gave premission to Martin to have the page. Ownership issues here I think.Slowart has been disruptive with his comments diff diff Sydney Bluegum (talk) 10:37, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is clearly not the case as the diff shows. A said that the page should be temporarily restricted to editors with no commercial interest. I even suggested that we should try to get some new editors in. Slowart's final response to this was, 'O.K. Yes, I suppose it's worth a try. Good luck then'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree He did agree to not edit but later changed his mind and did COI edits. Blackash have a chat 01:00, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion was that both COI editors withdraw. You can hardly expect Slowart to withdraw with when you had refused to do so. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No your statement heading is not about both of us it is about Slowart. Your statement implies that Slowart has not been doing COI editing, which is not true. That is what I was clarifying. Blackash have a chat 11:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slowart did agree to withdraw but it was clearly understood that this was on the basis that both COI editors withdrew. When you refused to do so he continued editing. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your heading statement is not about the both of us. It is about Slowart's editing and is misleading. Blackash have a chat 02:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I realized I should not edit a subject that involves myself and any controversy. Of course the edits by another artist from "Pooktre tree shapers" to eliminate, redefine, and water down the word "arborsculpture" is a blatant misuse of Wikipedia. When no other editors realized what what was going on, I was compelled to counter blackash's editing. Please do not force me watch this page for the rest of my life. That is why I proposed a mutual edit ban.Slowart (talk) 16:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slowart has resisted having the different methods as part of the article 8 June 2009. Yet this lack of method is one of the reasons given as to why the Pooktre article was not very interesting. diff. "how do you do it" is one of the most asked questions in emails. Slowart COI edits aren't done to improve wikipedia but to push his agenda. Example diff this edit removed Slowart/Reames's published method and image. To hide that he does actually have a method and the results it achieves. Blackash have a chat 04:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree:It's also clear from his comment above that he still is willing to comply with a mutual topic ban, which seems to me to show enormous generosity of spirit, given the profoundly disturbing nature of Blackash's protracted campaign to discredit him, his work, and any other editors who dared to agree with him on anything.duff 05:11, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

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Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

The article should be moved back to 'Arborsculpture' pending a decision on the best title

The article was moved improperly to 'Tree shaping' and this move has been used to canvass the public that that is the 'correct' name for the art.

'Tree shaping' is misleading as it means something different.

WP policy is to use the original article name during discussion

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Disagree This is not a good idea at all. Arborsculpture is definitely tied to a specific company while the current title is not. There may well be better titles out there but a move back to a commercial title is not the right answer. --rgpk (comment) 20:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree As far as I am aware, this is the only path to resolution that is supported by clear policy, as I have noted & linked to above.

Also, concerning User:RegentsPark's comment, he has it backwards and I cannot fathom why. The original title was and is generic. If arborsculpture were a commercial title, I would certainly agree with RegentsPark, however, there is simply no evidence that this is true, beyond Blackash's persistent, insistent, consistent resistance to being 'branded' by a word of someone else's coining. The word was coined for generic use to describe the craft, by one of her many professional artistic rivals; one whose work in the craft predates her own...a fact she documents in a very oddly reluctant but obvious way on her own site's timeline at [[32]], under the heading 'Practitioners 1908-1999'. It's clear that this point is irksome to her, not just from the odd mis-ordering of Reames and of herself, on her own website, but also from her vehement wrangling over the order of the bios on the article page & insistence on her own inclusion in that order at the same point as is her partner Peter Cook. His bio, by the way, is chronologically ordered on the basis of their own unsubstantiated claims as to his discovery and initiation of their craft in 'complete isolation from the rest of the world'. It's all self-serving hogwash and it clearly illustrates why Blackash has been SO determined for SO long to fight this thing out.

Generic use of precisely that sort did indeed ensue following its coining. The word caught on, spreading worldwide, in overlapping artistic, cultural, and arboricultural circles. That usage continues today, unhindered by either her campaign to assert otherwise wherever she finds the word used in print, and unhindered either by all the hand-wringing here. Generic use of the word 'arborsculpture' as the name of the craft is evident in all of the best references for the article, as has been evidenced & demonstrated & linked repeatedly. I'm sincerely saddened that Blackash is irked by it, but in the general population, outside her little 'club', that is what this craft is called.

Again, no evidence has been presented to support this consistent false claim that the word arborsculpture is commercially 'tied' to any company. The current title is unacceptable because it means something else in common usage, but perhaps more importantly, it is in fact part of the name of Blackash's business, 'Pooktre Tree Shapers', and also integral to the titles and addresses of her websites, which are also clearly evident in the External Links section: http://pooktre.com & http://www.treeshapers.net . Pooktre, by the way, is a cute contraction of her partner & co-wikieditor's name, Peter Cook...Pook. I don't see how much more blatantly commercial the current title could possibly be, but if we're going to set aside all the pertinent policies, why not just call it all NortheyPookulture and then call it a day?duff 06:15, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree Arborsculpture doesn't meet WP:Neutral Naming Google Arborsculpture, it leads to Richard Reames or his books/website. As does nearly all the references for Arborsculpture and so did the links given to prove that Arborsculpture is used independently of Richard Reames. discussion with links. Blackash have a chat 17:10, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Blackash and Sydney Bluegum should be banned from editing this article and related articles, including the talk pages, for six months

I do not like to see editors banned from WP, especially those with valuable expertise in a subject but in this case I can see no other option. Sydney Bluegum seems to be a SPA with the sole purpose of supporting Blackash.

Blackash has constantly edited and argued with a COI and all other attempts to resolve the problem have failed. Six months would give the non-COI editors time to come to a consensus on all issues with commercial or personal significance.

Slowart should be asked to withdraw from all COI editing for a similar period.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

I would point out that Blackash is already banned from editing the article. While this does nothing to address issues related to the talk page, so far I think the ban has worked as intended to keep editors with a commercial interest from using the article for their own purposes. While I do wish Blackash would work under the assumption that we all have the same goal and relax her confrontational attitude to editors who prefer a different title, I also think having her input is valuable enough to warrant wading through to the other side. I would prefer a proposal that still allows her to help on article improvement.

In Sydney's case I will have to deffer to others, as advocacy is strongly discouraged, but he has not been involved in any disruptively tendentious editing of the article (that I have seen). Colincbn (talk) 02:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of Blackash's current ban but I believe that it needs to be extended to the talk page to avoid further disruption. I think six months is time for the COI issues to be fully resolved by non-COI editors. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree As I note above, I think this falls under the 'cut your nose to spite your face' category of decisions. We have a well written article, primarily because of the work of these editors, let's try to keep it that way. --rgpk (comment) 20:17, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with respect to Blackash & also to her self-disclosed co-editor, Peter Cook. If that's not Sydney Bluegum, then honestly, I don't have a problem with Sydney Bluegum continuing to edit or comment in either space, including related pages, as long as it's in a non-disruptive and collegial manner and not in an advocacy role as described above. I'd also like to see some probationary period around Blackash's return to either space, on this or any related pages, during which time such a ban could be reinstated promptly and without further chagrin, in the unlikely event that it should become clear to other editors that the point has been missed.

We have a C-class article, not primarily because of Blackash's contributions, and certainly not primarily due to those of Sydney Bluegum (yet?), but primarily because MANY dedicated and fascinated editors have weathered the storm and kept the article on track. Please take the time to carefully study the five year history of contributions if there is truly any doubt of this.

The article's development will continue until it is an A-Class article, but my impression is that this will only happen if editors of good conscience can be unhindered by the present battleground mentality. Slowart has agreed to a mutual ban in both spaces, consistently. Blackash & Slowart should certainly be encouraged to expand & improve their OWN websites and publication lists, as their time permits, so that non-conflicted editors can consult, exploit, and reference their expert resources in the manner that is permitted.duff 06:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Blackash should be permanently banned from COI editing of the this article.

Slowart should be asked not to edit the article in areas where he has a potential COI.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment I'm not sure how this is different from outright banning.--rgpk (comment) 20:19, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Really? You do not understand the difference between areas where Blackash has a conflict of interest and areas where she does not? Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If Blackash &/or her co-editor Peter Cook prove unable to fully grasp, respect, and comply with the other agreed-upon remedies during the present ban and/or any others that might emerge from this proceeding, this may be necessary as the conditional outcome of an unsuccessful probationary return to non-COI editing. I believe that Slowart has already volunteered, in the interest of both the article and the encyclopedia, to comply with a temporary mutual topic-wide ban, though I don't think it could hurt to ask him again if further clarification or confirmation is sought. duff 07:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Blackash should be permanently banned from excessive use of the talk page to promote views on subjects where she has a COI

Slowart should be asked not to make excessive use of the talk page in areas where he has a potential COI.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment Again, regarding Blackash & her co-editing partner, I'd like to see something like this as a conditional outcome, should there be an unsuccessful return to editing after expiration of the current ban &/or any other bans that might emerge from this proceeding. I'd go along with a permanent ban from ANY use of the talk pages on any related topic areas, should the problem re-emerge after that. Slowart's talkpage contribution history does not indicate that this has been problematic, but it sounds like something he would voluntarily agree to given his past willingness to participate in a mutual ban.

Comment by others:

The article should be put on COI probation

Anyone editing with a COI should be warned and then banned by any admin.

This should also include a watch on editors drafted in or canvassed by anyone with a COI. New editors are, as always, most welcome, but if we want more editors here we should use a standard and neutral process such as another RfC.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed principles

Wikipedia does not prescribe usage, nor determine the names of topics

1) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. As such it does not take stances in disputes outside of its own internal workings. And it is not to be edited by those involved in outside disputes as a tool to gain an advantage. When there is no consensus name for a topic Wikipedia has an article on, policy calls for a descriptive phrase to be used.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

[Note: the content of the above section has changed considerably since the comments here were started]

Comment Colincbn your heading sounds like a wiki policy is it? If so were?

Tree shaping has more secondary/tertiary sources than Arborsculpture, that in a way is a consensus. link to read sources with quotes of different suggestions for the title. Blackash have a chat 11:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would say it is included in the Policy on Original Research. Also in various other policies it is made clear that WP must Describe not Prescribe. In this case prescribing the name that should be used for the art in-spite of the fact that there is a debate going on in the artistic community of what the name should be. This is why I am against the title being Arborsulpture as well. Because it was the first non-stub title there is an argument for using it, but I would much prefer a title that does not influence the debate at all. Colincbn (talk) 02:44, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Umm I believe you are the main (only ?) editor using "the first non-stub title" as an argument. Blackash have a chat 12:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean "using"? It is a Policy, everyone has to follow them, thats how the whole show works. Colincbn (talk) 16:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple policies that apply to any issue for example title has WP:NAME, WP:NEUTRAL, WP:TRUTH plus others. All have different weight in regards to polices. Example WP:NEUTRAL is core policy and should have greater weight because of that. In your statement "Because it was the first non-stub title there is an argument for using it," in context to the rest of the paragraph it could come across as though this has not been your argument, which would be misleading. You have repeatedly used "the first non-stub title" as an argument. That is what I am clarifying. Blackash have a chat 02:38, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and the statement above reflects every single one of those Policies. In addition WP:NOR is also a core policy that is important to this discussion. What about the statement above is not in-line with policy? As for the "non-stub" thing; it is not an argument it is a Policy, I'm just pointing it out. I accept that it exists and therefore accept that Martin, Duff, Griseum, and every other editor who has supported reverting back to Arbo has a valid point supported by Policy. Therefore if it gets reverted I would not argue. However I don't think Arbo is the best title, in fact I am solidly against it. Do you actually read my posts and still not understand that? Colincbn (talk) 03:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VERIFY is also a core policy and the title Tree shaping meets it and other wiki policies as well, as does tree training. As Afd Hero stated "The real problem is that the policy is inconsistent." I believe WP:NEUTRAL and WP:VERIFY should outweigh the "the first non-stub title" policy. I'm just pointing out you have used "the first non-stub title" policy, as that is not clear in your original statement. Blackash have a chat 03:36, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blackash are you just arguing for arguments sake here? I do not want the title to be Arbo, I have said this multiple times on every page related to this dispute, yes there is policy that calls for it but I would prefer a descriptive phrase. How do you feel about a descriptive phrase? Please address what I am saying not some straw man you have built to discredit me. Colincbn (talk) 03:55, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The first non-stub argument does not apply here because the original title is tied to a specific commercial operation and to a book title by the owner of that operation. Arborsculpture should be a non-starter as a title under any circumstances. Whether tree shaping is or is not an appropriate title is a different question but we can't return to the original title. --rgpk (comment) 20:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree While I agree with the initial statement as it is presently phrased, I have significant concerns with the direction of its supporting paragraph and with the direction that comments on this point have taken. I do see, based on the note above, that the content of the original point has changed since first posted, so not sure to what extent the comments above are in response to the original question or what has changed or what might have inspired its opaque amendment. Omitted from the supporting paragraph is the more applicable policy. Was it initially included? The ensuing discussion suggests that it was.

To clarify, WP:TITLECHANGES is not an 'argument' and not a tactic to be 'used'. It's a policy and it is the policy that directly applies to the titling situation on this article. I posted more detailed responses above, which I don't want to clutter this up by repeating in their entirety. Please see Martin Hogbin's FoF @ 4.2.2.1 & PR 4.2.3.1 for the well-referenced and strong case for the preeminent applicability of that policy to this article's title.

Directly responding to RegentsPark, The WP:TITLECHANGES POLICY does indeed apply. This statement "the original title is tied to a specific commercial operation and to a book title by the owner of that operation" is factually incorrect and is also an inaccurate characterization of the original article title. The author of the book by the same title...coined the word,in that book, specifically for generic use. The article is not about that author, not initiated by that author, not about the word, and not about the book, despite repeated attempts to color it that way. It's about the craft and arborsculpture is what the craft & products of the craft are called in the ordinary world, as the predominance of quality references demonstrate clearly and as the original article also demonstrated clearly.

There is no evidence so far of any "specific commercial operation" "tied" to the generic term arborsculpture. What specifically is meant by "tied"? As for a commercial enterprise by the same name, owned by that author...Have you any evidence of any of this? I'd like to see it all. Please elaborate and provide it.

The craft of arborsculpture, sometimes rising to the level of an art, is the topic discussed and illuminated in the article and that is the generic term most well-referenced by reliable sources for this craft.

The name change was just plain wrong and ill-informed. We should not perpetuate that mistake any further. Arborsculpture is (not coincidentally) also the only title that meets the WP:TITLECHANGES policy requirements. If for some good reason editors do not like the policy, the policy page is the place to bring that up & make a convincing case for changing it; not the pages it applies to. duff 09:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

By allowing the title "Tree Shaping" Wikipedia is prescribing the use of "Tree Shaping" as the actual name of the art, regardless of its use outside WP.

1) The term "Tree shaping" is used by many gardeners and tree care professionals to mean something entirely different than the subject of this article. Also, among artists who do practice the art being described Tree Shaping is in no way the most common term used. WP must report usage not prescribe usage. To keep the current title violates Policy on several levels.

2) Wikipedia is quoted around the web and is used as a first reference point for many outside articles. Regardless of whether this is a good thing or not it is something we need to be aware of. The number of websites that have begun to use the term Tree Shaping has jumped considerably since the title change, many of them directly referencing the WP article. Thanks in part to Blackash's work to bring the article's title to the attention of various web-masters. If the title is a name that can be easily used as the name of the art WP is essentially claiming that to be the consensus name. That is unacceptable.

3) By choosing a title that can be used as the name of the art-form WP is taking sides in an outside naming dispute. Regardless of what the title ends up being it must not advocate a particular usage until such time as that name has clearly become the default/consensus name for the art.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment Words can have more than one meaning, this is why wiki has disambiguation pages. The terminology of Tree shaping, shaping trees and variations is used by the artists of this practice usually to describe their own name of the art. Blackash have a chat 11:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, we should absolutely make a disambig page if the current title remains after Arbitration. On your second point I would say that while the terminology is used when talking about the art it is not used as the name of the art. Using a short easy to use title unduly influences the debate on what the name should be. And WP should not be used to influence any outside debates. Colincbn (talk) 02:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to read the quotes at the List of potential titles again. Couple of examples Quote "Extreme tree shaping (like the granny knot page 65)" talking about Aharon Naveh's pretzel tree. Quote "History of Shaping Trees" "Chapter title out of Richard's book. Please note how it is used as "The name" as do other quotes at the link. Blackash have a chat 11:32, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with all 3 points. The word "tree" and the word "shaping" are used when talking about the art of coerce, but should not be misconstrued as to be used as the name of the art.Slowart (talk) 17:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the three points listed, and find the FoF title factual. However, while several other policies also apply, WP:TITLECHANGES is the policy most on point with respect to Title Changes. The fact that there is a bitter private branding dispute among a small clique of artists, and that those artists have chosen, against WP editing policies, to wage that private and personal dispute here on wikipedia, and also to use their editing time and that of neutral good faith editors to further leverage their interests in a private commercial dispute, amounts to nothing but a distracting and time-consuming tempest in a teapot.

Statements previously placed inside the article space which alluded to such a dispute were rightly removed, on competent counsel from outside neutral editors, because no reliable citations for their private dispute could be located. We can't deny that the dispute exists, because it's been shoveled in here for YEARS by at least three of the admittedly involved parties (including Primack/MPrimack). However, in the context of this article, the lot of it is unsubs tantiated, unreferenced ORIGINAL RESEARCH. These parties' little snarlings at each other and at the editors of this & related topics, on several wikipedia talkpages of related articles, on the wiktionary article, and across the vast blogosphere are NOT reliable sources.

None of it changes the fact that there is no such dispute in the rest of the real world, or in the academic world, over what to call the craft. The elegantly coined term 'arborsculpture' is generally accepted and used to describe products of the work and the work activity itself, because it is readily understood by people who understand gardening & people who understand art. Arborsculpture is the name of the craft as distinguished by the preponderance of reliable sources. Check the references yourself. I did, with excruciating scrutiny.duff 09:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Rename article to descriptive phrase that cannot be mistaken for the actual name of the art. Or revert to first non-stub name per Policy on title disputes

1) There are already policies in place for this issue. Simply following them is the best course forward. However that will require untangling some policies that seem to conflict.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

My first suggestion would be "Training plants to form tools or items". Seven words, three less than the ten word suggested limit put forth in the MoS (It's only five if you discount "to" and "or"). It covers what the art is without any association to any practitioner. It is a Verbal noun. And most importantly it cannot affect the real naming debate that is going on in the artistic community.

Any concern over what term people will use to search for the art can be addressed by redirects. Colincbn (talk) 05:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed my preferred title to "Shaping living plants into useful objects", as it flows better and is essentially a direct quote (slightly modified) from one of the sources provided by Blackash. Six words, still a verbal noun, and still keeps WP from deciding on the default name of the art. Colincbn (talk) 02:29, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your point 1 above. There is no point in trying to resolve the issue here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree As I explain above, using the name of a commercial operation as the title is not where we should be going. If consensus settles on a better descriptive phrase, then of course we should go with that.--rgpk (comment) 20:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So your saying you disagree with renaming to arbo, not to using a descriptive phrase correct? How do you feel about my suggestion?Colincbn (talk) 21:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You put disagree in big bold letters, then explained that you are actually fine with my proposal. How do you feel about the specific phrase I put up as a suggestion? [Note: I struck Arbo from the proposal because although Policy does call for it I don't want to use it either, I think I have made that clear.] Colincbn (talk) 01:45, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly don't get it. Renaming to a descriptive phrase will solve all title related disputes, the main point of contention, and it fits squarely with all policies on naming. Even Blackash has never given any reason why she would be against it (she has said she does not think it is necessary however). As no one has given any reason not to do it, and it solves so many problems, it seems like a no brainer to me. In fact policy specifically says that is what we should do in these situations. Even after saying he/she disagrees above RegentsPark (rgpk) points out he/she actually sees nothing wrong with my proposal. Several people have said "yeah maybe if there is consensus" but no one seems to be trying to build it. This will fix 99% of what is causing problems and it follows every single WP policy there is. Can anyone tell me what the problem is with using my proposed name above? Colincbn (talk) 02:10, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree, though I'd have agreed strongly with the portion you struck. We should use the actual name of the art. There is no commercial operation tied to the word; that meme is false. The problems that I have with this solution are that by either 1. allowing the bold-but-incorrect initial name change to stand or 2.Contriving up some other descriptive phrase for it, we are being asked to ignore the best & highest quality citations indicating that arborsculpture IS the correct title, which are THESE: *Master Gardeners *.edu*American Society of Landscape Architects*Purde university horticulture department *University of California Cooperative Extension*Horticultural Reviews *UC Davis Graduate Thesis *University of California pressand we are also being asked to ignore the clear policy @ WP:TITLECHANGES, which exists specifically to resolve exactly this sort of conflict. Significant consensus was built for returning the article to its original name during the RfM I organized here: [33] & that consensus could easily be built again, were it not for the constant browbeating of the one pair of co-editors most opposed to its correct use. To be clear, by that I mean Blackash & her co-editor Peter Cook. They've chased away a number of dedicated and productive editors over the years, over this issue. I'm one. Any other solution simply capitulates to that persistent COI haranguing, setting a precedent that I'll not support. It won't make the encyclopedia or the quality of its editors better either.

I object to involved artistic & commercial interests using Wikipedia and its editorial volunteers to squelch the use of this (or any) word for their own personal or corporate gain. I even more strongly object to capitulation to those who attempt to do such things. Campaigns to kill words, particularly around private gain, violate some of my own most basic principles about languages and their evolution. I would say that this protracted argument has been a huge waste of time, were not the underlying principles SO important to uphold. duff 18:18, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While I would obviously prefer to have you agree on this I am also very, very, grateful you have actually addressed it. My main reason for taking this stance (and striking the second sentence) has been the number of people who do not see Arbo as having a clear majority in reliable sources. I have never thought that the phrase chosen should be permanent. But I do think it should be the title we use until there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever of what the consensus name for the art is outside of WP. The reason I added the second sentence originally was because I accept there is policy that clearly calls for returning to Arbo, I just think in the name of compromise (not with commercial practitioners but with the many editors who do not accept Arbo), and in keeping WP from being the final arbitrator in the naming dispute, taking this option is the best way forward. Colincbn (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Assign Blackash a mentor who is experienced at conflict avoidance

1) I think at the end of the day Blackash is a good editor who truly believes in the goals of WP. I think she sometimes has a hard time separating what she sees as good for her art from what is good for WP. But this does not mean she is malicious in any way. The prolonged conflict here has lead her to have a battleground mentality that has hobbled good faith attempts at compromise.

2) Assigning her to a mentor that can give advice on her edits before she makes them may help her see how to approach the issues from a new standpoint. An editor with a background of avoiding and resolving conflicts could give advice on edits she wants to make to the Tree shaping Talk page before she makes them, and help her make the points she is intending without furthering the conflict. After some period of collaborative progress she could then follow the standard process for unbanning to remove the topic ban that is already in place.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

I agree that Blackash could do with some help in understanding what COI editing is. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Unban blackash and slowart

1) Unban blackash and slowart from editing the article.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Agree I believe I was Topic Ban without real cause. I'm civil, I back up my claims with evidence, how and why wiki policies apply and I ask for outside editors to look over edits that may be considered COI. The last seems to be why SilkTork listed me for Topic banning, SilkTork's quote "We have over 3 million articles, and this is a low priority one - the amount of attention this is getting is disproportionate to its value and importance. I am committed to truth, accuracy and fairness, and am prepared to spend time on getting that. But I can only give my time where I see a decent return for my investment. This topic is too expensive." diff Blackash have a chat 11:52, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Alowing Blackash to edit the page forces me to watch and counter edits to the page, at least in the absents of other aware editors. I am not willing to do this for wikipedea and if the past is any indication the page under the control of this editor will liley end up marginalizing the word "arborsculpture" and redefining my own work to suit.Slowart (talk) 16:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a good idea in combination with the mentorship suggestion above. --rgpk (comment) 20:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I would be willing to do the mentorship as suggested. Blackash have a chat 23:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree Unbanning Slowart is unlikely to cause further problems & I don't object to that, as he's voluntarily agreed to mutual self-banning at nearly every stage of the conflict and appears to grasp the importance of taking a step back. However, the ban on Blackash should run its course, along with any other remedies found appropriate during this arbitration. She still doesn't get the cause of her ban nor think she has done anything amiss, as she clearly states above.duff 18:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Limit blackash and slowart's edits

2) Prohibit blackash and slowart from doing name-related edits to the article. Limit blackash and slowart's talk-page edits on conflict-of-interest issues (eg, the name) to 500 words per issue per month. Allow them unlimited talk-page edits for issues where there is no conflict of interest.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment I think it would need to be clear which sentences this would apply to. I would be more comfortable, if the limit was 80-100 words per point, with no time limit. I would recommend that every one should have to follow this. This would prevent Duff's essay style replies and make the talk pages more readable. Blackash have a chat 12:03, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No one really admits it, but I think one of the main issues people have with you (blackash) is that you talk too much. Much more than any other editor except perhaps duff (but he no longer participates). Even though your posts come from good intentions, don't break any rules, and bring up valid points, on the whole they have the effect of dominating the conversation. Now I think the reason is obvious - you are a passionate person especially when it comes to your art, and you also feel like the pro-arborsculpture editors are ganging up on you so you need to defend yourself. Would you agree with this asessment?

This is why I think a word limit makes sense - it lets you defend yourself and make your points, without dominating the conversation. AfD hero (talk) 18:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think your assessment has a fair bit of truth to it. In most discussions I'm talking to 2-5 editors, I reply to each editor's raised issues and questions, sometimes only one editor replies, or they seem to take turns in replying to me, focusing on behavior not content. example discussion So at a quick scan it seems I'm talking a lot, and they aren't. To try to address this I've offered at the tree shaping talk to self-limit my comments about edits I contest by first making my case and then only making 2 comments to any given editor in reply. Blackash have a chat 11:52, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree I think this would be easy to manipulate by the editors asking irrelevant questions and gooble- gook to use an editors quota up. An example is this diff where Colincbn completely missed the point, argued about it, and turned the point around too mean something else. He stated I made a statement that I did not -He states you could use vines I didn't.Sydney Bluegum (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would just like to say that I don't think there is anything wrong with posting a lot. If a single post gets too long it can become hard to read, but you can simply break it up with formatting to make it easier on the eyes. I post a lot too and I think Blackash also has the right to post as much as she wants, every editor does. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't like the idea of forcing her to restrict the volume of her postings. Working with a mentor on edits before she makes them would most likely bring down the number of posts she makes, but placing an arbitrary limit seems like the wrong answer to me.

Besides, on the talk page once she reached her self imposed two post limit she accused me of bad behavior because I replied to her second post. She says I should not have replied because she could not respond. Colincbn (talk) 05:50, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn you seem to misunderstand my comments in a negative way. I had asked you to go to my talk page if my point was still unclear. If you had stuck to content on the Tree shaping talk page I would not have made any comment at all. Colincbn you chose bring your feelings about my supposed opposition to "each and every one" of your edits, (which was a gross exaggeration) on the Tree shaping talk page, and to top it off you asked a question as well. My responds. I then when to your talk page as that is the appropriate place to bring up your behavior. [34] Blackash have a chat 01:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The place to talk about articles, including trying to compromise on them which is what my post was actually about, is the talk page of the article in question.

Are you saying if you get a limit on your edits then we are no longer allowed to ask you questions when you reach that limit? And it is up to us to keep track of when you reach that limit? And follow your instructions on where to post once you have?

I think this conversation shows why this proposal is unlikely to work. Colincbn (talk) 02:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Duhh. Colincbn, why keep beating your head against the wall? Is it because it feels so good when you stop? Peace to you.Slowart (talk) 16:17, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree This proposal is unlikely to remedy the present situation. Slowart has voluntarily complied with the currently-in-place ban & he voluntarily complied with a self-imposed ban also. Check the volume of his edits. Slowart is not the problem, though it's clear why Blackash sees him as her problem.

Also, again, I'm not a "pro-arborsculpture editor". I'm a wikipedia editor. If my own sincere attempts to be thorough & clear on the talk page when I address Blackash's prolonged and multi-pronged assault on the use of the word arborsculpture, are seen as essays, then so be it. If someone does not address each & every instance of her repeated insistences, she takes it as a go-ahead and then wields any non-response as permission for her to do as she pleases, regardless of any prior protests. That's why we are here, now. Ultimately, her approach works, as she just wears down other editors until they don't want to deal with her anymore. She has a pretty clear reason for doing what she does and I have not been inclined to simply let it happen. I can understand why she would see that as a problem too, because it robs her of that excuse for her actions. I don't have much to say on any other talk page, because among the many pages I contribute to, this dynamic only exists here. Generally, collaboration around Wikipedia is much more enjoyable and much less of a 'chess game', to use her phrase. I don't think a word limit on anyone is the right answer. Most editors are here to do words. Stopping the gaming of Wikipedia and of words by a commercial interest is the goal I'd like to see achieved, however many words that takes. duff 19:15, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Hold official name discussions

3) Hold an official name discussion on the talk page every 6 months, to be closed by a neutral administrator. Prohibit discussion of the name outside the official discussion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Purpose of Wikipedia

1) The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality, free-content online encyclopedia. This is best achieved in an atmosphere of collegiality, camaraderie, and mutual respect among contributors. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, the furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Yes, want that one. It may be generic, but it's the first building block --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:04, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I agree with this statement, but it's so generic I don't really see the point. Also, it focuses on why editors are editing rather than the content of their edits. AfD hero (talk) 05:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree also, although like AfD hero I imagined that it was always assumed. In this case I agree that stating clearly is a good idea. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:08, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree yes furtherance of outside conflicts also it is not the place to redefine words or terms or the work of your competition or competitors!Slowart (talk) 16:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Slowart you have accused me of this before diff my rebuttal diff and discussion Blackash have a chat 12:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right. --rgpk (comment) 20:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Wikipedia articles are to reflect what is in reliable sources and not to be used as a coat rack. Day before the title change. [35] Blackash have a chat 12:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree I do see the point and it's a crucial one. Thank you for articulating it so clearly. It's right at the problem here.duff 19:33, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Basic --FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral point of view and undue weight

2) All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, with all relevant points of view represented in reasonable proportion to their importance and relevance to the subject-matter of the article. Undue weight should not be given to aspects which are peripheral to the topic. Relying on synthesized claims, or other "original research", is also contrary to this principle.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Another building block. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Just to be clear, NPOV refers to 'all significant views that have been published by reliable sources' not the views of WP editors, individuals or businesses. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right. --rgpk (comment) 20:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Again, right on point and well said. Also, right on point is the clarification by MartinHogbin. Completely agree.

Comment by others:

Basic. FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Decorum

3) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited. Making unsupported accusations of such misconduct by other editors, particularly where this is done in repeatedly or in a bad-faith attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute, is also unacceptable.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Agree, Especially when editor one states potential COI asks content question then other editors come into the discussion stating COI against editor one without supporting evidence of bad behavior. Blackash have a chat 04:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

AgreeAgain, completely agree. These things are prohibited so as to create and maintain the essential collaborative writing atmosphere described above in point #1. Great flow, Flo. duff 19:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Too much battleground mentality. FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus

4) Wikipedia relies on a consensus model. When there is a good-faith dispute, editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process, in lieu of soapboxing, edit warring, or other inappropriate behavior. Abuse of the consensus model and process, such as misrepresenting consensus or poisoning the well, is disruptive. Specific forums, such as Articles for deletion for deletion discussions, Wikipedia:Page move discussions, and have been created to seek and where possible attain consensus on specific types of content disagreements.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Agree And again I see that you have clearly read a LOT of the background of this page and are very much aware of the entire scope of the challenge here. Thank you. duff 19:47, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Single-purpose accounts

5) Editors may choose to focus their contributions to Wikipedia narrowly or broadly. However, editors who focus primarily or exclusively on a narrow subject—sometimes referred to as single-purpose accounts—are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus is on advocacy rather than neutrally presenting information.

Comment by Arbitrators:

The way I put it is that being a SPA, in and of itself is not an issue, however SPA's must take extra care that their editing complies with Wikipedia's norms and policies. SirFozzie (talk) 22:55, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for digging this one out - it is highly applicable here. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Agree The part of this arbitration that concerns User:Sydney Bluegum is well addressed by this statement.

Comment by others:

FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

--duff 19:57, 27 May 2011 (UTC)====Talk pages==== 6) The purpose of a talk page is to provide a location for editors to discuss changes to the associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject. Editors should aspire to use talk pages effectively and must not misuse them through practices such as excessive repetition, monopolization, irrelevancy, advocacy, misrepresentation of others' comments, or personal attacks.[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Agree I got the feeling the length of discussion was part of the problem at Tree shaping. The last time this issue came up on the Tree shaping talk page I offered to self-limit my comments about edits I contest by first making my case and then only making 2 comments to any given editor in reply. This is my way of trying to help shorten the length of discussion. This seemed to be helping but was only in effect for a few weeks before this arbitration was listed. Blackash have a chat 06:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Thank you again, Flo, for clearly recognizing and succinctly describing so many essential facets of the problem that brought us all to this arbitration.

Comment by others:

FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Role of the Arbitration Committee

7) It is not the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle good-faith content disputes among editors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Essential. I am not about to tell anyone what to call this article, or this art form. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Agree. Much of the material presented in this case is simply a rehash of the content disagreement over the use of the term arbosculpture. The behaviour of the parties has largely been civil and within policy, but has been persistent and tendentious and has dragged in other volunteers, taking up a vastly disproportionate amount of time and effort for the value of the article. This is a trivial dispute, as it doesn't really matter what the article is called; however, a series of uninvolved and experienced Wikipedia volunteers have looked into this mater, and the consensus has been that the name should be Tree shaping. Continuing to argue after the fact, is wearying, and the name could be changed over and over again without satisfying all parties. A consensus has been reached; the parties have been asked to accept the situation and move on. They have not moved on and have been unable to conduct themselves without continuing to draw in editors to the naming dispute, so at this stage they should be banned from talking about the subject anywhere on Wikipedia for a period significant enough for them to calm down; and for other editors to be warned that taking up the dispute and edit warring over the name would result in short blocks. The issue here for ArbCom is not to look at the content dispute, or the value of one name over the other, but to look at the behaviour of those who have refused to accept consensus, and have continued to create drama. As well as the two lead parties, Slowart and Blackash, it may be worth looking at the behaviour of some others who have prolonged or inflamed the dispute rather than calm it down. I have not paid attention to who has done what, so I don't know who is on who's side. RegentsPark's observations appear a good starting point. I recall some other editors who were involved, but who appear not to be on Wikipedia at present; it might be prudent to include them in consideration in case they decide to reuse their account. One account that I recall was used a lot for making comments on and editing the article is User:Griseum. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 22:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point out where consensus for the title was reached? Colincbn (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because, you know, if there are a bunch of editors who disagree, than that ain't consensus. Colincbn (talk) 01:42, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would say this goes beyond a content dispute. There are multiple Policies being violated by the current title.

@Elen: You said "I am not about to tell anyone what to call this article, or this art form", but by keeping the title as it is you are telling people what to call this art form and that goes directly against the principals of WP. I'm not asking ArbCom to decide on a title, just to decide that the title must not be usable as the name of the art. The exact wording is not so important. Colincbn (talk) 01:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colin, I think if the COI editing is prevented non-COI editors will be able to to impartially apply WP policies to the subject of the article name. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:14, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I have accepted the consensus for the title to stay at Tree shaping. A few of the editors stated they could not move forward if the title was tree shaping. I only offered alternative title names and discussion about wiki policies and how they apply, as a way of working towards a compromise hoping they would then be able to help improve the article.
There are 5-7 editors who have gone on about the title and made false claims of consensus in the past, part of the reason I felt the need to be part of the title discussions is to point out the half truths and misleading comments. If there was some type of restriction on any editor bring up the title, I would be delighted to not talk about the title. This would then let the content be the focus of discussions.
Agree past editors who where very active about this issue should also be part to the restrictions. Blackash have a chat 06:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was never a consensus on the title. When SilkTork was involved he clearly stated he did not have time to look close at the issues, made a dision and moved on. At the time he insisted Pooktre was a name for the whole art due to a press release, and the only compromise was to remove the word that is most used solid refs."arborsculpture". The Pooktre name mistake is not even fixed to this day. Please realize the lead is screwed up. The art is also known as tree training, arborsculpture, Pooktre and several other names. this was promoted and defended by blackash to water-down the word arborsculpture by trying to find every word ever used by anyone and adding it to the article. Someone once used in a published article the word "arborsmithing", that is very close to my company name perhaps we need to include that also, but no that's just silly and would be a misuse of this Wiki. Slowart (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slowart that is not how I remember the discussions. I disagree with most of your comment. Please give diffs to support your claims. Blackash have a chat 12:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that arbitrating content disputes is not the purview of this arbitration committee, as I understand it. The problems experienced at this page & talk page go way beyond a content dispute though, just as your previous points have alluded. duff 20:05, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive and tendentious editing

8) Contributors who engage in tendentious or disruptive editing, such as by engaging in sustained aggressive point-of-view editing may have editing restriction on the articles in question or be banned from the site.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Basic ground rule. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Agree. What I have found tendentious and disruptive to consensus is the necessity of repeatedly replying on different talk pages/noticeboards to the same editors who were claiming I had COI without supporting evidence of bad behavior. I rebut with diffs/links because if I don't most editors would logically believe their claims. The last couple of times I've just linked to a diff where I had already rebutted these editors. Blackash have a chat 01:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree There may be no other remedy, Flo, as this has indeed been a sustained problem. Thirteen archives so far (and that's just THIS talk page) of endless repeated rebuttals attest to and provide ample evidence of this aggression and fall squarely under this heading. duff 20:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Tendentious over a long time span, in conjuncture with a SPA is at the heart of this matter.Slowart (talk) 03:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

FloNight ♥♥♥♥ 22:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

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I'm putting some suggestions here for the wording of parts of the proposed decision,so the parties are able to comment. (I'm using my alternate account because I'm not at home, but it is still me) Elen on the Roads:talk to me 21:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed principles

Take it that all of the principles articulated by Flo Night above are included.

Expert editors

1) Expert editors are welcome on Wikipedia, including expert editors with a professional or commercial interest in the subject. However, the guidelines concerning conflicts of interest must be observed, and expert editors must at all times avoid editing (or appearing to edit) the enclyclopaedia in order to promote their own professional or commercial interest.

Comment by Arbitrators:

There are some subjects (for example High shear mixers, where the only experts in the subject are the ones that manufacture the technology. Wikipedia appreciates contributions from experts, but they must edit for the benefit of the encyclopaedia. I'm open to modification of wording - I can see this is one where several folks have made similar suggestions. Elen on the Roads:talk to me 21:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Agree. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:15, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I might specify somehow that this guideline applies to editing in article mainspaces and in both article & user talkpages, if there's any chance that's not obvious. duff 23:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

IMO Tree training or Pleaching could work as the article title both have references, are short and what people would use to search for this art, if it is found that Tree shaping isn't suitable. Blackash have a chat 17:51, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

No one established name for this topic

2) Different practitioners use different terms for their art, and there is not yet one well-established term within the art world for this art form. In this unusual situation, it is possible that whatever Wikipedia uses as the article title will become the de facto term for the art. This is contrary to the policy of Wikipedia, in which the encyclopaedia must follow established practice, and not create it.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It strikes me that this is the crux of the problem - whatever Wikipedia calls it has the potential to become the name everybody calls it, which is exactly the opposite to Wikipedia's policies. I think back in the day, we would have had the same argument about titling the article on appliances that clean carpets by suction.Elen on the Roads:talk to me 22:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying not for this to sound like Arbcom is ruling on content - as far as I can see, everyone agrees with the premise of the first sentence, even if they feel they have a good reason for using one name or another.--Elen on the Roads:talk to me 23:07, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Duff and Martin Hogbin. Thanks for your comments. I shall withdraw the first sentence, and rewrite the second, and await further comments. --Elen on the Roads:talk to me 11:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Disagree Here is how I would say it instead. Some practitioners use individual brands to distinguish their individual works, and there is one well-established and non-branded term that the majority of reliable sources presented are using to describe it, partly because it is elegantly descriptive & partly because it is not a brand. That vacuum has already sucked & Wikipedia is too late to unsuck it. =) duff 00:39, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree You said that you did not intend to decide on the name for the article. I think that a decision on whether there is one established name or not should not be made here either. If the non-COI editors were free to discus the issue without continual COI disruption, I am sure that we could arrive at a consensus based only on the principles you have elucidated above. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree (as written at the time of this posting) This has been my main issue with the article. Colincbn (talk) 14:57, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Out of the 4 books published in English about this art form and it's practitioners, 3 of the books talk about the naming of the art-form also other media talks about the naming issue eg. newspapers and magazines. As for Martin comment about COI disruption, I believe what he find disruptive is that I point out where and why some logic is faulty according to wiki policies. Blackash have a chat 15:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The first clause of the first sentence is better (as of the time of this posting), but I don't know whether or not the art world has developed one established term. I'm not sure whether that specific point has been clearly nailed. The available quality references are not what I would call art-world sources, but instead are scholarly sources. It is apparent, but only from the comments on WP by the artists who have participated in editing & discussing the article (WP:OR), is that among those artists there is not one well-established term. With the exception of Reames/Slowart, they are all standing by their own brands. I also think MartinHogbin has a good point. While it would be in some ways a relief to have this arbitration somehow bind some sense into the whole tired name discussion, I am hopeful about the possibility of finding and establishing consensus in the ordinary way, in a better editing environment.duff 16:38, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Some editors have a potential conflict of interest

3) Some of those editing the article are themselves practitioners of the art, or have a professional or commercial interest in the art. These editors have a potential for a conflict of interest, as it may be in their professional/commercial interest to have the title of the article reflect the description used for their their own artworks; and this may conflict with Wikipedia's policies.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I am going to be more specific - this is a starter for 10. Elen on the Roads:talk to me 22:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I am not sure what '10' means in that sentence, but perhaps I can assist. Several of those editing, or who have either edited or influenced the editing of the article, are in fact featured, mentioned, cited, or some combination of those, in the article.

Featured artists Becky Northey & Peter Cook (as a team under User:Blackash), Richard Reames (as User:Slowart & previously as retired User:Reames), Dan Ladd (as User:Gourds1), and Mark Primack, owner of Gilroy Gardens, containing most of featured artist Erlandson's specimens (as User:Primack & as User:MPrimack), are the editors I am aware of who have both worked on the article (or around it in some fashion) and are involved in the craft described.

Also, please allow me to clarify one other thing. The 2-user team that is User:Blackash has repeatedly insisted that I am more closely involved with this topic than I have disclosed, consistently basing this claim on some cryptic hearsay. I believe that claim to have been completely fabricated by User:Blackash. No evidence has emerged to support that claim; only these repeated innuendos in several different proceedings against User:Blackash as well as in both formal & informal discussions on the talk page. Apparently the intent is to discredit me in some way or dilute the integrity of my editing.

I do have some specialized knowledge about plants and a pretty extensive library surrounding that interest (among many others, I might add), but I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor do I intend to become an arborsculptor or a published writer about arborsculpture; and I never have, nor do I now, nor do I ever expect to stand to benefit in any way whatsoever from the outcome of any aspect of this article. I also have never met & do not know any of the people in this article. I don't consider any of them friends & I have had zero outside association with any of them. Proof otherwise would be very interesting to consider, but absent that (and since I know it to be false), it is dishonest for her & her partner to make this claim. duff 02:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree but note that there has been a large difference in the way that different editors have expressed their potential COI. Blackash has persistently and proactively edited the article, argued on the talk pages, and canvassed others to support a COI and has also ignored all requests to withdraw. Slowart has made some reactive COI edits but has agreed to withdraw as part of a general COI withdrawal. Others, it would seem, have withdrawn completely.

By the way, 'starter for 10' is a reference to the UK TV quiz University Challenge. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:47, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@ Martin: That seems an accurate summary. I meant only to be as thorough and neutral as possible. Also, (& I may now just be misreading you) please allow me to further clarify, lest I conveyed this point poorly in my second paragraph: regarding my phrase "the 2-user team that is User:Blackash", I hope that didn't come across in a way that suggests User:Slowart is the other part of that team. I meant that User:Blackash is both Becky Northey & her partner Peter Cook. Finally, YAY! TV Trivia! I haven't owned one in over 10 years. =)duff 12:27, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Duff, apart from the comment about 'starter for 10' I was really responding to Elen's comments. IMartin Hogbin (talk) 14:54, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Martin...I had a feeling that might be the case, but wanted to make sure I understood correctly.duff 17:41, 28 May 2011 (UTC) duff[reply]

Agree This is why I've gone to notice boards to ask about references and edits that could be considered COI before I did them.

Comment Duff you are wrong about Mark Primack owning Gilroy Gardens. [37] also read Gilroy_Gardens it states a different body as the owner.

@Duff I told you before who edits with Blackash, it is me myself and I, though I talk to Pete and sometimes ask him how to spell something or check my writing. diff

@ Martin, please give diff/s where I've canvassed others. Blackash have a chat 16:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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I'm not entirely clear on what kind of comment should go where in these cases. So I will just post here for a few things I would like to say. First I do not think it is appropriate to ban Blackash or Slowart from WP as a whole over this. If a full Topic-ban is put in place I can certainly understand why, however it would not be my first choice.

I think that a large part of the issues that editors have brought up against Blackash stem from a misunderstanding. Namely, just because you follow the letter of the rules does not mean you are following the spirit of the rules. A lot of time is being spent pointing out specific edits and what rule they do or do not break. I think this is not the best way to resolve any issue. I think it is important that Blackash sees why some editors have taken stances opposed to her. It is not because "we just don't like her" or anything like that. It is because we feel that in cases where one editor is involved with a topic commercially, as she is, they should recuse themselves from editing on any topic that a non-involved editor disagrees on them with. I know it does not seem fair, but that is the only way we can be sure that the edits made are coming from a neutral standpoint.

As myself and others have pointed out Blackash has put in an enormous amount of effort into this article and we truly value that work. I also think if she simply lets go of worrying about how the article turns out and leaves it up to others to decide she will be much better off as a wikipedian. In short just WP:DGAF. Colincbn (talk) 02:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn, COI states it's appropriate to bring issues up on talk pages and to ask other editors about doing potential COI edits as long as these editors are aware of the COI. Just stating an editor shouldn't be offering suggestions where there is a potential for COI mean it is simpler for other editors, but the articles are also restricted by the lack of input. Blackash have a chat 12:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, nowhere in the above statement do I say "an editor shouldn't be offering suggestions where there is a potential for COI". You are framing my points in an inaccurate way and then disputing them as if they were actually my points. Please don't do that. What I said was editors with CoIs should "recuse themselves from editing on any topic that a non-involved editor disagrees on them with". That in no way implies they "shouldn't offer suggestions". However once the suggestion is made they should probably just drop it. Let other non-involved editors make the final decision. Otherwise any attempt to influence the discussion will likely be seen as POV pushing and gaming the system. But again this is only when conflict arises. Otherwise edit to your heart's content. Colincbn (talk) 07:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As to the my "... an editor shouldn't be offering suggestions..." comment it was in reply to your comment "... if she simply lets go of worrying about how the article turns out and leaves it up to others..." come across to me as, let it go don't even bother offering suggestions and things will be simpler. Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning. Blackash have a chat 07:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also I want to be clear that I don't think it is wrong for Blackash to go around the web commenting on the use of the word Arborsculpture. Nor do I feel it is wrong for her to reference the WP article in those posts. I did put this link into the discussion but not because the posting itself is in any way inappropriate. What I find inappropriate is that she then edited to keep the name from changing back. I see this as using WP as a tool to further off wiki activities. And that is right out. Colincbn (talk) 04:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Got to love how you make out I have defended the Tree shaping title, and never offered any other suggests, all with out using those words. Wow, you know I have on multiple occasions suggested other titles names I even when to the trouble to create a large list of suggested titles with sources and quotes, words like pleaching, tree training and Biotecture to name a few. Here is a diff of my suggesting to you to "seriously discuss alternatives to Arborsculpture and Tree shaping instead of just moving the page temporarily". Blackash have a chat 12:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blackash I assume you are actually reading what I post before you reply, so I don't understand how you keep missing basic points made in plain English. I said: "she then edited to keep the name from changing back". Specifically back to Arborsculpture, since that was the only other title the article has had. I never said anything about other names. Do you deny that you have fought against returning to Arborsculpture? As it was the first non-stub name I think we could get a fair amount of support for that if that is what you want. Or are you simply building a straw man to attack instead of addressing what I actually said? If that is the case I hope you decide to change tactics and actually try to understand why using WP as a tool to further your activities on other sites and blogs is not acceptable. If you made it clear that you understood this, and laid out what you would do to rectify the issue, I would no longer bring it up as evidence of disruptive behaviour. Colincbn (talk) 01:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The statement you have made in the context of the rest of the paragraph can be taken to mean, I'm fighting to maintain the title's states quo. Which is not true Blackash have a chat 03:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone has taken that meaning from my posts I would like to be clear that was not my intent. I have never thought you were fighting to maintain the status quo. I honestly think you have the best of intentions and you truly want to improve the article and WP as a whole. However, I'm sure you saw this coming, I think where this subject is concerned your primary motivation is to do what you feel is best for your art, rather than what is best for WP. I totally understand why and I don't even think there is anything wrong with that. But I feel that you must admit that WP is not as important to your life as your art is, and there are times where doing what is best for WP and doing what you feel is best for your art may conflict.

I want to be clear that I don't think having a CoI is a bad thing. Most likely everyone who edits WP has one in some fashion in regards to some articles. Some are simple opinion based conflicts, for example I am a huge fan of J.R.R. Tolkien and I might have to back off of editing if someone wrote up a criticisms page on him. I could certainly take part, but I would have to be very careful not to let my feelings for his writing get in the way of my edits. As such I would be very likely to leave key decisions to others. In the case of a commercially significant conflict, editors have to be even more careful. But it is not "wrong" just to have them. Colincbn (talk) 04:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn I can and have on multiple occasions put wikipedia policies ahead of my art. To refresh your memory, check this diff. There are other instants as well, but I guess you get the point. Blackash have a chat 07:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't. Nothing in that diff shows you putting WP ahead of what you feel is best for your art. For one thing it is a conversation you had on an editor's user talk page. It is not even a talk page related to the article. Second it seems to me that none of the links in the diff show you putting WP ahead of your art. You have always demanded that Pooktre must not be branded with the term Arborsculpture, none of those links show any different. You have said you can live with any name that you feel is not linked with a practitioner, but that is not how WP, or even English, works. Unless a name is copyrighted, in which case things change, whatever becomes the standard name is what WP uses, regardless of who first used it. I actually understand your reasons for not wanting to have your art branded with the term Arborsculpture. However if that is what WP decides is the best title (I happen to disagree by the way) then that is what it should be, regardless of how you feel that effects your art. Colincbn (talk) 04:52, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again you are misrepresenting me and my motivations (which is the problem with minding reading). That diff is about my potential COI not content and shows how I've supported wiki polices instead of disregarding/fighting them. To clarify one instance. As a newbie I created the Pooktre article. It came up for deletion, I presented the case to save the page once. It was pointed out where it didn't meet wikipedia polices and why it should be deleted. I then requested speed delete as those editors where right. As I understand it most people fight to the bitter end instead of up holding wikipedia polices. One editor complimented me about my behavior at the AFD. [38] The first link shows my diff asking for speedy delete of the Pooktre article. The rest of your comment shows the same level of misunderstanding. Blackash have a chat 11:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing about what that edit shows, agreeing to an outcome that is already decided, changes what I said above. Colincbn (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is fine for her to push her points wherever she wants to, except here. This is not the place to engage in a battle over what the art should be named. If she spent as much time writing her own books on the subject as she has spent fighting the word Arborsculpture here, we would have plenty of acceptable references that use the term "Tree Shaping" to work with! Colincbn (talk) 04:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that any party is entitled to promote their own business or personal interests outside WP. I think Blackash misrepresented WP in her canvassing, there was little discussion of the name change and no consensus. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn, Thanks for your repeated recommendation to write a book. Martin I addressed your concern to lack of discussion about the move in your comment above. There where 9 editors part of the discussion of the title after the move. 5 noticeable people from the field chose to comment, in a field of 12 that is a large %. Blackash have a chat 12:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion should have occurred before the move. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict of interest

I do not doubt that given complete control over this article both Blackash and Slowart would do their best to present all aspects of the subject in a fair and neutral manner. That is not the point. It is a fact that, in the real world, those with a conflict of interest cannot be relied upon to make impartial decisions. That is why a judge, for example, would not be allowed to preside over the trial of a close relative. However well intentioned they were they would find it impossible to view the trial from the POV of someone with no interest. They may be biased towards their relative, or their sense of integrity may make them over-compensate and be biased against them. This is why situations where people may act with a COI are avoided in the worlds of finance, commerce, and justice.

In this article COI is obviously not just a matter of principle. Slowart and Blackash have both, in their own opinions, edited in accordance with WP policy, yet there has been continual strong disagreement between them. It least one of them, therefore, must be allowing their personal and commercial interest in the subject to affect their judgment. The answer is simple, just as in the outside world, both should withdraw from all areas with a potential COI. Blackash does not seem to recognise this principle. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was never consensus

Blackash has asked (on the evidence page) for me to give diffs about something that never happened (consensus for the name not being reached). That is called demanding proof of a negative, or Negative evidence, it is part of the "Argument from ignorance" informal logical fallacy. For example the statement "since you cannot prove we are all not just heads in jars living in the matrix then it must be true that we are" also demands a negative proof.

I would respond by saying if she thinks consensus has been reached please show the diffs where it happened. The burden of evidence is on the person making the claim. Colincbn (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In re-reading Blackash's post to the evidence page I realize I may have misunderstood her statement "Please give diffs about my beliefs.", rather then asking me to provide diffs that there was not consensus for the current title, as she states there was (there was not). I guess she was asking for diffs that verified my claim that she sees using a long title as a plot. I have since added one. I will look for more if requested but it is a long, time consuming, process sifting through all the various talk pages and whatnot for examples. It would be easier if she simply stated here what she has against using a long title. Colincbn (talk) 02:44, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colincbn as you have show some difficulty in interpreting my comments (as above and else where) and the state of my COI [39] please find some other diffs. I've stated "I accepted the consensus for the title to stay at Tree shaping" Colincbn I've already replied to you about the long title idea diff. I don't see you changing your stance as a plot. I believe changing the title to a holding/temporary name is a way of trying to game the system. But why are you so defensive about that statement? Blackash have a chat 04:14, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you honestly not understand what the word plot means?!?! You are saying it is a plot to game the system. You just said that, just now. WTF?!?! Colincbn (talk) 04:41, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm saying changing your stance is not a plot. As to gaming the system I have never stated anywhere it is a plot. What I did do was point out where Martin offered the solution of a holding title. What else was being discussed at the same time, with my interpretation of those edits. [40] Blackash have a chat 05:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to game the system is a plot, by definition. But fine you win, I will no longer use the standardly accepted English word "plot". I will now say you see wanting to use a long descriptive title as "an attempt to game the system", much longer to type but I will deal with it. However that still changes nothing. You have said repeatedly that after the change you think me and Martin will use that as an excuse to go back to Arbo. You just posted on the Evidence Talk page that you think I will go back to pushing for that Policy (first non-stub title) once the change is made. That is not only not assuming good faith it is just plain wrong. I do not think the name should be changed from a descriptive title until the artistic community decides on a consensus name. Since that community is small and both you and Slowart are parts of it I expect that will take a very long time. But once (if) it happens the title should change to reflect that consensus. After all WP is here to report what is happening in the world, not to influence it. Colincbn (talk) 05:35, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GAME is trying to use policies and guidelines in order to avoid the spirit of consensus. Where as plot seems more like a plan of attack. I pointed to Martin's temporary title idea, etc... [41] as gaming the system. I also did not state a long descriptive title is gaming the system. Blackash have a chat 06:54, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. Then what is your problem with my suggested title above? Colincbn (talk) 07:04, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why I care

I have been asked why, when I am usually so ready to WP:DGAF, have I become so concerned with this issue. I would say because more than any other dispute I have commented on this most clearly relates to the Wikipedia:Five pillars. Specifically the first two: Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia and Wikipedia has a neutral point of view. It is absolutely clear to me that WP should not be involved in settling a dispute among artists outside of WP. Allowing WP to advocate for one side or the other violates the core principals of the project. If we wish to uphold these principals we must be very sure that nothing we do, on any page, is for any purpose other than elucidation. The policies WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:Verify, WP:SOAP, and many many others all stem from these two pillars. To allow WP to become the final arbitrator of what this art is called is totally unacceptable and irreconcilable with the very foundations on which WP is built.

On the other hand it won't really be the end of the world (or the site) either, so whatever. Colincbn (talk) 03:15, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tree shaping was chosen as it is a broad descriptive phrase, covering a range of subjects that are about changing the appearance of a tree. Which meets WP:NPOV section Article naming. It also has refs going back over 100 years to do with the article subject. Martin said this [42] and Colincbn agreed "Tree Shaping means something else" [43]. So Colincbn are you saying that Tree shaping no longer means something else and could become known only as the name of the article subject. When does a descriptive term become a name? Blackash have a chat 05:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well it is not when WP decides it is that's for sure. Colincbn (talk) 05:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

wow

Gone a few days and Duff comes in and does his thing, approximately 37 points with spin and misinformation, An example

Duff’ quote “The article is not about that author, not initiated by that author, not about the word, and not about the book, despite repeated attempts to color it that way.” In this one statement alone there is 4 pieces of misleading info.

"not about that author" 3rd paragraph in the summary is all about Richard Reames
"not initiated by that author" User:Ezekiello and Richard worked together on the this article both before and during their visit to us in march 2006. They explained how they had started the page and showed me how to edit the article. I have already point this out on the talk page before. [44] (Duff was editing the talk at this time)
"not about the word" 2nd paragraph in the summary talks how the word was coined and that it is not found in standard English dictionaries.
"not about the book" 2nd paragraph in the summary talks about Richard Reames book.

[45] page just after the name change. I could respond to Duff’s misinformation and spin, but that would just lead to a discussion like I had with colincbn [46], but on steroids. So instead of filling the page, I’m willing to go into detail if an admin would like more information about any of Duff’s statements, or anything else. Blackash have a chat 17:27, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, wow, yeah....37 posts, probably more with the lag...Hey! Check out this link: (from the top of this and every page on this arbitration) [[47]]. See that top name there with the 100+ posts? Probably more with the 18 hour lag, but, um.. Whose is that name, please? (drumroll..)

I truly appreciate and am enlightened by your vigorous participation in this hearing & I wish you were courteous enough to not knock mine.

Please don't wait to go into detail. Fill up the page, if that's what it takes for you to back up your claims of misinformation and spin, or, like I noted just a moment ago upthread, back down. No steroids here.

As usual, you have entirely misunderstood my point regarding all 4 of your bullet points, quoting me. Of course the article covers all four things, but it is not about any one of them. It is about this pleachcraft thing. Do you understand the difference? The article on Richard Reames is here: Richard Reames. One could, by your reasoning above, say that this article is about you. But it isn't, is it?

Furthermore, your assertion that User:Reames & User:Ezekiello "explained to me that they started the page" is just that. An assertion of yours. It's all innuendo and no meat. User:Ezekiello started the page. And yes, I read this claim when you originally posted it on the talk page for the article. However, your pointing it out & asserting it and repeating it does not make it factual or even noteworthy. The page history doesn't support your claim. There is no other way to prove or disprove your claim, nor useful evidence, nor citations to support it that I am aware of. That's all original research & is a pretty good example of why Wikipedia frowns on original research. It can be really disruptive when an editor insists on using it.duff 18:51, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

@@ Line 1,480: / Line 1,480: @@
 Gone a few days and Duff comes in and does his thing, approximately 37 points with spin and misinformation,  An example
 *Duff’ quote “The article is not about that author, not initiated by that author, not about the word, and not about the book, despite repeated attempts to color it that way.”  In this one statement alone there is 4 pieces of misleading info.
-#"not about that author" 3rd paragraph in the summary is all about Richard Reames.
+#"not about that author" 3rd paragraph in the summary is all about Richard Reames
 #"not initiated by that author" [[User:Ezekiello]] and Richard worked together on the this article both before and during their visit to us in march 2006. They explained how they had started the page and showed me how to edit the article. I have already point this out on the talk page before.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATree_shaping&action=historysubmit&diff=364767363&oldid=364711927] (Duff was editing the talk at this time)
 #"not about the word" 2nd paragraph in the summary talks how the word was coined and that it is not found in standard English dictionaries.
@@ Line 1,488: / Line 1,488: @@
+::Gosh, wow, yeah....37 posts, probably more with the lag...Hey!  Check out this link: (from the top of this and every page on this arbitration) [[http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tree_shaping/Workshop]].  See that top name there with the 100+ posts?  Probably more with the 18 hour lag, but, um.. Whose is that name, please?  (drumroll..)
+::I truly appreciate and am enlightened by your vigorous participation in this hearing & I wish you were courteous enough to not knock mine.
+::Please don't wait to go into detail.  Fill up the page, if that's what it takes for you to back up your claims of misinformation and spin, or, like I noted just a moment ago upthread, back down.  No steroids here.
+::As usual, you have entirely misunderstood my point regarding all 4 of your bullet points, quoting me.  Of course the article covers all four things, but it is not '''about''' any one of them.  It is about this pleachcraft thing.  Do you understand the difference?  The article on Richard Reames is here: [[Richard Reames]].  One could, by your reasoning above, say that this article is about '''you'''.  But it isn't, is it?
+::Furthermore, your assertion that [[User:Reames]] & [[User:Ezekiello]] "explained to me that they started the page" is just that.  An assertion of yours.  It's all innuendo and no meat.  [[User:Ezekiello]] started the page.  And yes, I read this claim when you originally posted it on the talk page for the article.  However, your pointing it out & asserting it and repeating it does not make it factual or even noteworthy.  The page history doesn't support your claim.  There is no other way to prove or disprove your claim, nor useful evidence, nor citations to support it that I am aware of.  That's all original research & is a pretty good example of why Wikipedia frowns on original research.  It can be really disruptive when an editor insists on using it.<font face="Papyrus">[[user talk:duff|<span style="cursor:crosshair"><font color=" purple">d</font><font color=" red">u</font><font color=" orange">f</font><font color=" gold">f</font></span>]]</font> 18:51, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 :'''Comment by others:'''
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