User talk:Bertilvidet

A welcome from Sputnik

Hi, Bertilvidet, Welcome to Wikipedia!

Hello, bonjour, salut, privyet, konichiwa, shalom, hola, salve, sala'am, bonjourno, and hi! I'm Sputnik. I noticed that you were new and/or have yet to receive any messages so I just thought I'd pop in to say "hello". We're glad to have you in our community! I hope you like this place — I sure do — and want to stay. Wikipedia can be a little intimidating at first, since it's so big but we won't bite so Be Bold and get what you know down in microchips! If you do make a mistake, that's fine, we'll assume good faith and just correct you: it'll take a few seconds maximum! I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Though we all make goofy mistakes, here is what Wikipedia is not. If you have any questions or concerns, don't hesitate to see the help pages or add a question to the village pump. The Community Portal can also be very useful. If you want to play around with your new Wiki skills the Sandbox is for you. Here are a few links to get you started:

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Happy Wiki-ing!

- СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 15:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Dont start a revert war

Participate in talk instead 19:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Selam

Türk karşıtı Khoikhoi admin oluyor,tanıdığın bütün türklere haber verirsen engelleyebiliriz burdan oy verebilirsin (Metb82 14:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC))

Hamas

Well done on your efforts keeping that article as objective and factual as possible. It's a fairly frustrating task. Palmiro | Talk

It's a Sisyphean task! Palmiro | Talk 23:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy

I have to warn you that you are coming close to 3RR on this article. Please reopen discussion before reposting your addition. Thanks, Physchim62 (talk) 13:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As a wikipedian, I have an obligation to attempt to keep the article NPOV. You admit your bias, which is admirable, but you still are arguing from that biased point of view. You are the only one arguing FOR a label for JP. Step back and think about that. You also say you need to inform people, which is pushing an agenda. We should not be doing that on WP. Thanks. Kyaa the Catlord 14:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Bertilvidet, please don't blame me (see: user_talk:adornix) to "start a revert war" when you are ignoring recent discussions on a topic. It seems to me that you urgently want to enforce POV in this article. --Adornix 14:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

On an unrelated topic, is there an English version of [1]? I can't understand Danish, and I'm sure many of the readers of the English version of Wikipedia can't either. In the meantime, I'm reformatting your source so it appears in the References section (with the Danish tag). If you can't find a translation, would you be kind enough to translate the part referring to World War II? I won't be putting it in article; I just wanted to know. joturner 00:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanx

Hey Bertilvidet, thank you so much for you efforts on pages related to Istanbul. I am really grateful. We have a politics section missing in Istanbul page as you see and i think you are the person that can fill it up. Thanx again, Saygılar, İyi çalışmalar :) (Metb82 22:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC))

Hookah origin

I removed your comment that the hookah originates in India; do you have a source for this? I'd love to know the answer, but for such a fundamental idea we should cite a source — if only to prevent partisan changes. --Mgreenbe 14:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Mmm. Yeah, a website isn't preferable. Feel free to put it back in with the link. What we need now is a history of tobacco; I'll add it to my library list. --Mgreenbe 15:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

ÖDP coalition

2002 electoral alliance of ÖDP was with Toplumcu Demokratik Parti founded by Aydın deputy (milletvekili) Dr. Sema Pişkinsüt. The party was largely personality-driven and I don't know whether it is defunct or not. Saygılar... 1Behemoth 4:54, 22 February 2005 (UTC)

Rica ederim. Yardımcı olabildiysem sevindim. Saygılar... Behemoth 15:07, 22 February 2005 (UTC)

Request for edit summary

Hi. I am a bot, and I am writing to you with a request. I would like to ask you, if possible, to use edit summaries a bit more often when you contribute. The reason an edit summary is important is because it allows your fellow contributors to understand what you changed; you can think of it as the "Subject:" line in an email. For your information, your current edit summary usage is 33% for major edits and 73% for minor edits. (Based on the last 150 major and 99 minor edits in the article namespace.)

This is just a suggestion, and I hope that I did not appear impolite. You do not need to reply to this message, but if you would like to give me feedback, you can do so at the feedback page. Thank you, and happy edits, Mathbot 22:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

ODTÜ

Thank you. I just had some time to enhance it visually and form a structured outline more open to contributions. I think the METU article is still very poor regarding content and I totally agree that it should include the events of 70s and 80s. I have a minor suggestion, if I may: you could use the preview feature to try those different layouts for the Devrim picture, without saving the page every time. And a note: I think I have better looking pictures for that, does this one have a special purpose in that composition (the barbed wire above the letters), or is it a coincidence? Atilim Gunes Baydin 15:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Misquote

Your contribution on hammas are consistantly based on mis quotes. I don't know if you rad too fast to mis what the text does or has any other reason for doing what you do. For examples the demands are from the Int'l comunity and not US and the contributions are what hamas describe as "westren nations". The confusu\ion that resulted from your edit will not fly. Do you want to have ArbCom rule about your constant edit-wars ? So here is my suggestion: If you think the text is not correct discuss it in talk. If you continue to revert the text with mis quotes I will take it to ArbCom. Zeq 09:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

All I can say to you is: Read the sourcesd carefully. The EU is providing funding until th Hamas goverment takes place. It clearly spelled out the 3 conditions for future aid. I have provided sources for that (easy since it is repeated 100s of times on the web) If you continue to revert I will take it to ArbCom.

If you have other sources, read them carefully, present them accuratly this is not your blog, this is an encyclopedia. All POVs are welcome but need to correctly represent the source. READ and UNDERSTAND the sources. Zeq 09:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Article Improvement Drive

Great idea. Just read the sources carefully and present all POVs. Zeq 15:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

K*******n

Hello Cool Cat. It's really a nice user page you have here - hope I manage to leave my message without leaving a mess. I noticed that you are doing an effort to removed references to Kurdishness in articles about Southeastern Turkey. I must say I tend to disagree with you, but my purpose for writing you here is not to embark on a long debate where we probably both in forehand know the arguments of the other.

You seem to be a well-experienced and serious Wikipedian. So my question is whether there has been taken any compregensive decisions for Wikipedia policy on offically non-recognized minorities - as the Kurds in Turkey. There are so many articles related to the area of Turkey, that some, including myself, refer to as Kurdistan, that I believe a comprehensive policy should be developed. Has there been such discussions? If not, where is the place to raise such a discussion? I believe it will be better to discuss and reach some overall agreement instead of continous edit wars on articles such as Batman, Hakkari etc. Bertilvidet 20:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes WP:NPOV.

• Firstly, I am not against "kurdishness". I also do not remove referances to kurdishness.
• As you might know Kurdistan is a proposed country. Refering to Hakkari and Batman belonging to a proposed county is problematic and a breach of NPOV.
  • Refering to provinces in soultheastern Turkey as "Kurdistan" is something done often by Kurdish nationalists who seek an independent kurdistan. Which is fine for them but would not be ok on wikipedia.
  • Kurdistan literaly means "land of the kurds" or "lands owned by kurds" or "lands belonging to kurds" and is factualy inacurate as the place is owned by Turkey.
  • This is like refering to Canada being the 51st US state. While many people may agree (especialy up north in the US) this would be bad practice as Canada is an independent nation.
• Non-recognized minorities are treated like recognised majorities. They have their own articles such as Kurdish people or Kurdish culture. Only independent states (Such as Turkey and France) and defacto states (partialy) (such as Taiwan KKTC) are treated like nations.

My primary concern is Kurdistan being treated as a country. Recently there has been a movement to portray a non existant Kurdish state and I work against this.

My second concern is copyrights. A lot of pages refering to kurds is coppied from the web breaching copyrights of numerous people.

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 22:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Hamas, Gladio and other things

Merhaba Bertilvidet! Bueno, i'm not sure it so good an idea putting hamas for "article for improvement" but we shall see (i dread seeing tens of biased users with no knowledge of the context - at least Israelis editors do have knowledgeg of the context - and I remember a friend of mine, now in New York, telling me how extremists Jews living in the Jewish district over there can be, so much that they made an Israeli friend of his cry...). Anyway... I just thought, and I wonder why i didn't think about it, that maybe you'll be interested in helping on translating the Gladio article in turkish (it's just has been started), as Gladio has been active over there too. same goes for Abdullah Catli and Mehmet Ali Agca, both from the Grey Wolves who have been infiltrated by Gladio. Ah, and while i'm at it, you might want to check out the Clearstream scandal also... Teshikur, Salut collègue! Tazmaniacs 18:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Batman, Turkey

Hi, I noticed your posts on the above article, which I just edited a few times, and see from your user page that you live in Turkey and knowledgeable about the political situation there. I think it obvious that there are Kurds in SE Turkey and see that there have been concerted efforts to remove Kurdish content from the site. Do you know more about just what is going on in this regard? --Moby 08:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Kurd stub

Have you seen?

• Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion#.7B.7BKurd-politician-stub.7D.7D_.2F_Cat:Kurdish_politician_stubs

--Mais oui! 05:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Newroz píroz be!

Hi hewal, photos from the celebration! It's vey good. Tack så mycket och tack för din hjälp! Newroz píroz be! Diyako Talk + 17:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Norouzat Pirooz

The problem is my friend, that in order for the Kurds to get independance they are promoting their culture. For sure, this is all great and I promote this. However Iranian culture has been influential on all of middle east, mostly on Persians, to totally DENY this fact, and claim that all of a sudden Norouz is a Kurdish celebration comes as a shocking news to me. Sure, it is now claimed that 'Newruz' is different to Norouz, but as for the article, it needs references to support the idea that it is a different festival. Even Diyako has said that "its not exactly the same", well, if it IS pretty much the same thing, then the article should not have a strong POV toward how Kurdish it is and how its so different to the Iranian one.

I welcome your views on this. Meanwhile, Norouzat Pirooz va mobarak. --Kash 16:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kash. Thank you for the message. I will reply you at the relevant talk page. Khoda hafez va Norouzat Pirooz. Bertilvidet 16:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Doroud, are those pictures from a rally/demonstration or just the festival celebration? and what are those yellow flags with flowers on it? --Kash 21:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The pictures are from a Newroz celebaration, but these tend to turn quite political among Kurds in Turkey - and resemble thus a rally/demonstration (which is the reason that I argue for a raison d'être of kurdish neworz)...so the distinction is not clear cut. The yellow flags are the symbol of Democratic Society Party. all the best Bertilvidet 23:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your honesty. I really do! it's quite inspirational! However you have not mentioned this in the article.. and I am not really sure about how or what exactly I should change in the article! I don't want to poor more fuel on this fire if you know what I mean. Would you take up the challenge? --Kash 00:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Once again, thank you for the message. I appreciate you style of debate and that you want to avoid pouring more fuel on the fire! I am not sure if I understand exactly what is not mentioned in the article. I wrote this part: " Newroz is however still considered as a potent symbol of Kurdish identity in Turkey. Newroz celebrations are usually organised by Kurdish cultural associations and pro-Kurdish political parties. Thus, the Democratic Society Party was a leading force in the organisation of the 2006 Newroz events throughout Turkey." which I find very essential for understanding the Kurdish Newroz celebration. Bertilvidet 00:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I think the first and most important thing is that it looks like they are totally different celebrations.. you agreed that this is not the case, May I ask are you a Kurd? because I have Kurd friends who were surprised by this article! they claimed, as far as they know, Norouz is all the same. So if my guesses are correct, the whole idea that they are different is a new phenomena and politically motivated..I am quite unsure about what to do about it at the moment. --Kash 00:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure you may I ask, and I will even answer. I am not a Kurd....I am a European interested in Turkish politics, and this is how I got interested in the Newroz issue. I dont have much more knowledge about the history of Newroz than what I can read on Wiki. But I have realized that Newroz celebrations is of huge importance for the identity of Kurds (at least in Turkey). Bertilvidet 00:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hej Bertilvidet

Tack så mycket för de vackra bilderna! Thank you Diyako Talk + 17:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Newroz

Kaveh, you just unilateraly deleted an article here, including its disucssion. This is a very bad behavior, when we discuss the article hedre. May I suggest you to seek a settlement we can agree on and participate in the talk rather than destructing. If such destruction occurs again I am afraid we will have to protect the page. Hope it wil not be necesary. Hope to corporate with you. Bertilvidet 10:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Did no such thing, another user had altered the redirect page Newroz, I merely moved his article to a separate entry. Please gain consensus before unilaterally altering naming conventions. Kaveh 10:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I can see that you didn't delete the page as I initially thought. Bertilvidet 11:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bertilvidet, Thank you for your contributions. I agree with your suggestions. (except the number two which I'm going to discuss it later). But now the important is to reach a compromise on the title of the article. you are more neutral than me and I respect your suggestions. Diyako Talk + 22:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I myself do not like that comments. although I had no bad meaning but I'm sorry. But really it is veryyy hard to be a Kurd!! In Middle East People do not accept us as a people. We must only be a mountainous Turk, or Iranian Peasant (which in Iran is not a good term) or Arab (who according to their legends and 'Hadith' Kurds are decendants of Jins!). Diyako Talk + 22:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Evet, "Yaşasın Halkların Kardeşliği!" ama onlar böyle düşünmüyor! Onlar sadece bizi yok etmek istiyorlar. Dediklerim hepsi gerçek. Ben Onlarin arsainda yaşamışım. Ama tabi arasında iyi insanlar da çok bulunur. Bizim problemlerimiz de sadece siyasal değil. kültürel iktisat, ve tarihsel vb... Diyako Talk + 22:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ben farsçayi da biliyorum!! Evet iyi insanlar her yer de var, ama genellikle onlar bizi duşman sanıyor, burda da sen kendin göriyorsun, hergün kürt makaleleri silinkemte! De vill inte acceptera oss som kurder! Jag är positiv mot dem, men ja, du har rätt. Diyako Talk + 23:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Är du fortfarande arg på mig för vad jag sa på kvällen mot de killarna? Jag var nervös (. Diyako Talk + 13:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are right. But in fact many times the conflicts on Kurdish-related articles are baseless. Some (not all) people want to annoy... Yes sure I agree with proposal of Jef3000, It is good. I support also an article on the Kurdish version, whether the title of the article is 'Newroz', or 'Kurdish celebration of Newroz' or 'Kurds and Newroz'. I'm sure the article will be expanded by me and other users. We have a user User:Heja helweda who has very good info on Kurds, unfortunately just in this time (of debate) he is absent, unlike before that constantly contributed. There are still many untold points and events and variations on the Kurds and Newroz. Diyako Talk + 13:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

About the celebration of Nowruz by Kurds in Turkey.. I think its definately worth mentioning (if its true) that Kurds in Iran and Iraq (not sure about the ones in Syria) do not follow their Turkish cousins. Although I don't have any sources for this beside my Kurd friends. I think the Turkish party you mentioned has created all this, as I have mentioned before, to create a national+cultural identity between Kurds, and so far it has worked for the Kurd communities in Turkey and England (just London?), but I am not quite sure if its also true for the Iraqi Kurds. My Iraqi Kurd friend said its definately not true, he also went about saying how the Kurds in Iraq see Kurds in Turkey as Turks! but anyway if Wikipedia starts making assumptions such as this that all Kurds celebrate this other version of Nowruz then my suspicion is that it will be used as a propoganda tool..

Sadly Diyako thinks we are descriminating against Kurds as general. He actually said in that talk page that he sees being called an Iranian as an insult, and then he goes by saying Oh how hard it is to be a Kurd! well, it sure is if you make enemies of all your friends --Kash 22:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Iranians have never denied existance of Kurds and their culture. They see Kurds as an important part of Iranian people and their culture. --Kash 22:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Your friend Diyako has just nominated Norouz to be deleted.. [2] --Kash 23:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have put a better description for images on Kurds Norouz, as I had expressed to you before, I think it was obvious from the pictures that it is a demonstration, and with hundreds of PKK flags, It was ought to be mentioned --Kash 11:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Har Roozetan Norouz, Norouzetan Pirooz هر روزتا ن نوروز , نوروزتان پيروز . Amir85 13:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard.

You have to remember that Diyako's involvement which was clearly disruptive as I posted on the admin's incident board has also resulted in an admin apparently threatening to get me blocked because I simply told Diyako to stop! so please tell me again, what exactly it is that you want from me? --Kash 23:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

God is Syria's protector

Hi, Thank you. You mean the text in the middle of the image on the flag? Yes it is written in Arabic that: سوریة ألله حامیها (lit: Suriyya Allah hamiha) which exactly means God is the Syria's protector. Happy Newroz! Diyako Talk + 10:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment

Or how about replying: "Thank you for the friendly message despite previous conflicts. I wish you a happy Nevruz" ? Bertilvidet 13:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't celebrate that holiday. Also I was never at conflict. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 13:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Adana

Thank you for your message. Hopefully those who disagree with the Turkish POV (and with McCarthy, who isn't Turkish), will come to an understanding that these issues are not so cut and dry, and very often these histories are obscured due to politics and/or prejudice. SouthernComfort 23:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the Turkish word şalgam sounds a lot like the Persian word shalgham [3], which is basically a turnip stew. I've also heard the word shalgam used in Indian cuisine, again for turnips. It'd be interesting to know the origin of the term. SouthernComfort 23:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. I just noticed I made a mistake in the above comment - the stew is called "aash-e-shalgham" since "shalgham" just means turnips. Too much time on WP can cause such errors. ;) SouthernComfort 23:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Photographer

Image:View of Sultanahmet and Marmara Sea.jpg I really like this photograph, do you do it professionally? Thanks, --Kash 00:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah! I am pretty much the same. I just checked and I see you have a 300D? I have a 20D but I don't use it anywhere as much as I should :( --Kash 13:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that its abit big so its not easy to take it everywhere. Oh by the way, about the Norouz and Kurds thing, I was just reading the news and: [4] states that:

"Norouz - the Farsi word for "new year" - is an ancient Persian festival, celebrated on the first day of spring in several countries, such as Afghanistan, Iraq's Kurdish north and Iran."

This does back up my idea that the Kurds in northern Iraq celebrate Norouz instead of "Newruz".. I don't think there is any reason to find support for Iranian Kurds as all the country celebrate Norouz including the Kurds. This should pretty much mean that there is no need to generalise the whole Newroz or Newruz to be a "Kurd" thing. What do you think? --Kash 14:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kash, first of all sorry for delaying so long in answering you. I simply dont have any ready answer, so I thought I needed to reflect - but still I am not sure what to say...The Kurds in Turkey use the Latin alphabet, and in their language the celebration is "Newroz" (whereas it is Nevruz in Turkish). The Kurds in Iraq and Syria use however the Arabic alphabet - so spellings from these countries do hardly anymore than transliterate the word. Despite this a Google search for "Newroz Iraq" and "Norouz Iraq" gives the impression that the Kurds in Iraq tend to spell it Newroz (when Latin letters are used). So my impression is that the Newroz spelling rather is a Kurdish thing.

I deleted the sentence that used your source. The sentence gave the impression that Newroz and Norouz are two seperate things, and that you choose which one to celebrate. I dont think thats what you mean (?) and indeed it wasnt substained by the article. Let me know if you disagree. Bertilvidet 13:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Articles

I have reverted your edit on batman page for god knows how many times now. I recommend you have a read of WP:NPOV. I'd hate to spend the time fileing another rfc.

I am under the impresion you are here to expand and improve wikipedia. You need to be able to work with others rather than senselessly revert them screeming "That is POV".

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 03:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I have argued on the talk page for every edit I have contributed. If you please argue your case, we will be able to understand your reasoning and thus have better chances for corporating rather than just reverting. Please see the relevant talk page. Bertilvidet 09:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

An edit summary explains what I was doing. I have explained myself clearly. Even on the talk page. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 21:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

ŞALGAM

selam,

şalgam, sanırım tatma fırsatınız oldu ? --TuzsuzDeliBekir 17:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Ofisteyim, biraz ara verip girmiştim. Sen acılı şalgam severim dedin ya, şimdi canım çok istedi. Umarım yazıklarımı anlarsan. Dün için sorun etme. Hiç önemli değil. Saygılar.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 17:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Turkey

Selam Bertilvidet , Wikipedia:WikiProject Turkey çalışır duruma geldi sayılır. İlgileniyorsan Wikipedia:WikiProject_Turkey#Participants kısmına ismini ekleyerim, çalışmaya başlayabilirsin. Proje ile ilgili konular tartışma kısmında konuşuluyor. İyi günler --Ugur Basak 19:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Very good initiative! I look forward to collaborate with you! Bertilvidet 01:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

it's actually a expected initiative, it's only 1.5 days but it seems to be an active project. I hope it won't be successful. İyi geceler --Ugur Basak 01:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

"won't be"?--Kagan the Barbarian 09:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Kebab and Rakı

Just wanted you to know I trust in your good faith. I know you had honest intentions calling other users to the deletion page but what angered me was, you didn't call 2 or 3, you called about 15 people. This to me is abuse of democracy. I am making a very legitimate case there and now it is being shadowed by 20 people who are already fixated on the subject. It is like discussing with Imams, why Allah doesn't exist.

Anyway I am sure you'll have great contributions to WikiProject Turkey. No hard feelings here.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the message. I really do appreciate your tone and style despite our disagreements. The debate on the AfD became quite unpleasant, so I dont find it fruitful to advance my case there. Retrospectively, I can see that my spread of the word about the AfD could seem abusive. However, I want to underline that on purpose I sent it to people who I believe are open for arguments, and I didnt expect a common outcome. Furthermore I avoided to send it to people personally involved in the issue (didn't sent it to people I know as Kurdish or Turkish users). So I find the parallels to Imams and Mujahedeens inappropriate, and indeed it is not appropriate to my consumption of Rakı!

In a short time, there have been several proposals for deletion of categories, stubs and articles related to Kurds - which has become rather trite, and probably created an atmosphere of irritation with lots of inappropriate comments (including personal attacks, semi racist and anti-Turkish comments). I will suggest that we for a time, after the result of this AfD, try to focus our energy on articles that we can expand, rather than stirring new heated debates.

We have a lot of work ahead on the WikiProject Turkey, so lets unite our forces and go on. And in this respect I am convinced that our different approaches is a strenght, that will ensure NPOV and a balanced coverage. Kolay gelsin Bertilvidet 20:59, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Batman (city)

Hi Bertilvidet, I love the picture on your userpage! Hey, you just updated the population count on Batman (city). Did the site also give the year of the count? If so, could you please add the year to the article, to give the number a context? Thanks!--Hippalus 08:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that is a shame. Well, maybe you could insert an inline-link to the relevant subpage of the official site after the number. That would provide the necessary context. What do you think? Cheers, Hippalus 15:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC).

Batman Province

Hi, I just edited the map caption and category on this article and would like to know your opinion of categorization of regions inhabited by Kurds. It would seem that this is exactly what some are opposed to. --Moby 09:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I commented over on Talk:Batman, Turkey. --Moby 10:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

wp:an/i

Just a note making sure you're aware of this discussion at wp:an/i re Vote Stacking. --Moby

Collaboration

Cool Cat, it seems that we have several common points of interest concerning contemporary Turkey and minority issues is in Turkey. It is also clear that we have differing approaches, at least to the quite sensitive Kurdish question. IMHO our differing approaches should be considered as a strength in order to write well-balanced articles on the issues. If we admit our differences, I am certain that we can write really good NPOV articles. This requires, however, a mutual respect for the other's view, willingness to discussions, refrain from personal attacks and mutually assuming good faith. Lots of work is indeed to improve Turkey-related articles. I suggest that we collaborate about this important task. You are hereby invited. Bertilvidet 11:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem respecting other peoples views. It appears large masses do not honor the same concept which is a problem. Your concerns regarding civility is mutual, in any debate I expect nothing less from you. I also do not want to see any other example of vote stacking, there is no good faith in creating an artificial conensus.

I suggest we deal with a few problematic users first. I do not want them to interfere with our colaborations on such a sensative set of articles.

Having said all that you must realise where I am standing. I have nothing against the Kurds in general, however I object the portraying of them as if they own the place. Fortunately/unfortunately they don't and even Iraqi Kurds report to Bagdad.

• Some Kurds do campaign for an independent state and wikipedia has a palce for them at their own article: Kurdish nationalism. Elsewhere it becomes prolematic. (note that this article does not exist)
• The region they campaign for also has its own article: Kurdistan. I do not like such a thing being treated as a geographic region in lead and later treated like a proposed nation.

I also suggest keeping a {{POV}} tag on more contraversial articles such as Kurdistan until article becomes a Featured article and hence demonstrate NPOV to its fullest extent.

Is there a problem with that so far? --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 14:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your praise of mutual respect and civility, and in continuation of this my edits and opinions are not determined by what you want.

I dont understand what you mean by "I suggest we deal with a few problematic users first". Who are they, how are they problematic? We cannot prevent other users from interfering in our collaboration, indeed it is the nature of Wikipedia that anyone can edit and question whatever we write.

As long as a large number of people define them as Kurds, and refer to the place they live as Kurdistan or Turkish Kurdistan (which indicate an accept of the Turkish state) it is my conviction that this term deserves an article here - of course an article that outlines the political and geographical facts. I respect that you disagree on this, and will collaborate in improving the coverage whatever the outcome will be.

Yes, Kurdish nationalism is notable enough for an article - and so is Turkish nationalism.

The {{POV}} tag should be used with cautiousness. If there are legitimate concerns about the neutrality it is fair to use the tag. In that case, I will however, prefer that the critical points are entered into the article so that it becomes balanced / NPOV. Bertilvidet 15:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Look, some middle easterners refer to the US as the devil. We do not move it to Devil (country).

• Kurdistan is an acceptable term for an article not because what kurds call the place, but because its is citable on a variety of sources as well as being a proposed country otherwise it would be a simple redirect or perhaps a disambiguation page.
• However, Turkish Kurdistan is not as acceptable. After all only Kurds (and perhaps only some) referance the place as such and while rest of the nation and planet refer to the place as soultheastern anatolia. Turkey has 7 geographic regions recognised by the goverment as well as the international community hence no one can object. We can use those rather than a contraversial name such as 'Turkish Kurdistan' which means 'Turkish lands owned by the Kurds' as per dictionary definiton. This is a breaches npov. Also why do we have to use the word Kurdistan?
• The more accpeted term is Southeastern Turkey or Southeastern Anatolia not Turkish Kurdistan.
• It is however notable enough to be a redirect, just not notable enough to be the article. We do not want two articles explaining the same place. That is why redirects exist and that is why they were created. I do not believe I am being unreasonable here.

The point of {{POV}} is to get community attention. It might sometimes be best for unrelated parties to detect bias we may not necesarily see. Let me elaborate using fiction,

• For an average Romulan citizen, Klingons are a brutal and irrational race of savage people who smell bad.
• For the Klingons they are a brave race of warriors following Khalesses teachings superior to every other race.
• NPOV would be neither of course but a 3rd party would be better in choosing the NPOV way rather than a Romulan or Klingon citizen. {{POV}} does not mean the article is to be ignored but it just means article is biased and needs attention. A third party can only know about the dispute if it is advertised. This may take days or even a month. This is how contraversial topics are processed on wikipedia and sometimes a {{POV}} tag is intentionaly left such as on PKK.

About the problematic users, see: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Diyako, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Heja helweda, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Muhamed. I do not mind people joining the debate, I just dont want these users to disrupt the debate.

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 17:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Batman, Turkey, and Kurdish demographics

See my proposal on Talk:Batman, Turkey.--Hippalus 17:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahum, funny you mention Gotham City. I started watching this page because vandals with a sense of humor kept pointing all the links to 'Gotham City', 'Bat River' and 'Bat Cave'! I would never have guessed I would end up trying to steer through a quackmire of ethnic sensitivities!

I'm glad you agree on trying to find a more positive approach to the problems. I do hope the other editors of the page will join. We will see. I very much appreciate your constructive and respectful attitude in this and other discussions. Keep the good work going!

As to the principal debate, I fear this is my first debate of such a sensible nature, so I don't really know the proper route to address those. I do like this policy though: WP:CIVIL, and try to act accordingly.Cheers,--Hippalus 19:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks-Remerciements

Je vous remercie pour la bienveillance que vous avez montrée à propos de mon anniversaire.Smyrniot 21:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi

Hi, Dear Bertil Videt, One of our friends has started a new Notice board regarding Middle Eastern minorities. What is your Idea? Thanks. Xebat Talk + 22:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply and comment. Please can I ask you to change the wording of the notice board as you think it is good? Thank you very much for your help. Xebat Talk + 15:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Jaså?! Good, I agree with your viewpoints. Tack! Xebat Talk + 19:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the wording your vote. I meant: really?!! You have a good knowledge regarding Middle East.Xebat Talk + 20:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bertilvidet, I just want you to know that I think this idea will cause further heated problems between middle eastern contributers here, so please do have a good think about it. --Kash 22:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The user you are talking too about Kurdistan, meaning User:Diyako or user:Xebat is a major falsefiyer of information and a very racist problamatic user. He has made countless attacks on other users and whole nations and groups. He is no credit. 69.196.139.250 01:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Re:Kurdistan

Hi Bertilvidet - thanks for the comment re: Cool Cat. That's exactly the sort of reason I didn't want to get involved in the argument - it's too wrapped up in individual political viewpoints, and it's virtually impossible to work out where the POV-free line would be. Grutness...wha? 23:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The 'cat' talk is now at: Category talk:Kurdistan (Which articles should have the tag 'Category:Kurdistan'). Should get busy there. (BTW, that is a cool photo of a shoe; would you be ok with it being nominated as a picture of the day?) --Moby 14:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)