Template:Did you know nominations/Death of Ronald Greene

Death of Ronald Greene

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• ... that after police beat and dragged Ronald Greene face down while shackled, and said "That shit hurts, doesn't it?" while pepper-spraying him in the face, one officer was reprimanded for poor courtesy? Sources: "troopers ... put him in a chokehold and punched him in the face" [1] "uses of force ... included dragging him facedown by his ankle shackles and spraying him in the face with pepper spray... investigators wrote that “Greene’s eyes are squeezed shut as he shakes his head back and forth moaning in pain, movements consistent with having been sprayed in the face with (pepper) spray.” The records noted that around this time ... a local deputy assisting in the arrest added, “Yeah, that sh– hurts, doesn’t it?”" [2] "DeMoss got a “letter of counseling” and a “letter of reprimand," ... He was found to have violated rules on “courtesy” and body-worn or car cameras, officials said." [3]

• Reviewed: Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Rough_Run,_Peterman_Run

Created by Levivich (talk) and Starship.paint (talk). Nominated by EEng (talk) at 15:26, 20 May 2021 (UTC).

• Please hold off on reviewing while some new material is added to the article. EEng 07:03, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

  Have you finished adding the material, EEng? starship.paint (exalt) 08:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

  I think this was about adding the new developments from Friday/the weekend (police released all videos in full, some additional details reported such as the police using chemical weapons, and I think DeMoss was fired)... I was going to update the article but I've gotten busy IRL and haven't had time to thoroughly read the newer sources (I've only skimmed the headlines). Starship.paint, if you or E have time to update it (or maybe you already have, I haven't looked at the recent expansions to the article) please by all means go for it and don't wait for me. Thanks either way, Levivich ^harass/_hound 13:50, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

  I added a bit, no, I haven't added the full videos, the chemical weapons, DeMoss. I'm busy for the next 72 hours so it won't be me in this period of time, Levivich. starship.paint (exalt) 14:36, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

  OK, ready for review. EEng 03:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• Review:
  • Article:
    • New Y
    • Length Y
    • Policy: Neutral, sources check out, no close paraphrasing, etc. Y
  • Hook N Comments and suggestions follow.
  • QPQ Y

Thank you for this interesting and encyclopedic article. (I made several copyedits to it before reviewing, and I have no remaining concerns about the page itself.) My only concern is with the hook. I believe that it is unnecessarily verbose, and some of the word choices are not quite in keeping with the source material. About the latter, I think that "was reprimanded for poor courtesy" is not strictly in keeping with the source material, and needs to be precise per WP:BLP. For these reasons, I suggest:

ALT 1:

• ... that after police beat and dragged Ronald Greene face down while shackled, and pepper-sprayed him in the face, one of them received letters of counseling and reprimand for violating courtesy rules?

--Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Apologies for the verbosity, but I feel the beating, the face-down dragging, and the officer's apparent desire to confirm that he was successful in inflicting pain are all essential. Do you not feel that "poor courtesy" is a fair representation of the source's "violated rules on courtesy"? I mean, I don't think it's unwarranted to assume that the courtesy rules call for officers to exercise courtesy. EEng 23:47, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

ALT 1 still includes the beating, the face dragging, and even the pepper spray. So that leaves us with the quote. According to the source cited, The records noted that around this time Trooper York asked Greene if he has his attention now and a local deputy assisting in the arrest added, “Yeah, that sh– hurts, doesn’t it?” It was DeMoss who got the courtesy-related letters. It's probably DeMoss who was that "local deputy", but it still requires WP:OR to conclude that it was definitely him, and the way that ALT0 is worded, it clearly implies that he said it. I don't think I can approve the hook with that quote, per WP:BLP. And it's definitely not "essential" to include it in the hook.

As for "poor courtesy", I can certainly agree that it's more than likely that the courtesy rules call for exercising courtesy. But the wording used in the cited source is DeMoss got a “letter of counseling” and a “letter of reprimand,” according to the state police. He was found to have violated rules on “courtesy” and body-worn or car cameras, officials said. ALT 1 uses language that adheres to that description. ALT 0 says: "one officer was reprimanded for poor courtesy." Do we know whether the courtesy issue was in the "letter of counseling", in the "letter of reprimand", or in both? Did both letters also address the camera-use issues? I could actually make a case that we need to include the camera-use in the hook, as long as we refer to courtesy, but I think it's reasonable to be flexible about that, because the reference to courtesy is what makes the hook catchy.

I'm very disinclined to approve ALT 0. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

[4] might help. Levivich 00:32, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: Thanks, yes, that's absolutely a helpful source. I would strongly urge updating the page to include it, particularly because it updates the disciplinary decisions about the police officers. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:31, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added the most essential part of the new material to the page, but please feel free to expand on what I did. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

• it clearly implies that he said it – Oh, I completely disagree. I worded it carefully: After police (overall) did X, one of them (in particular) received Y".
• OK, how about: ALT2 ... that after policemen beat and dragged Ronald Greene face down while shackled, and said "That shit hurts, doesn't it?" while pepper-spraying his face, one was found to have violated rules on courtesy?

EEng 04:33, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

We might be able to tighten ALT 2 up a bit, so that's a possibility, but after having just read the new source provided by Levivich, I'm having some doubts about the overall approach to the hook. It turns out now that DeMoss is going to be fired. Given that, it may be misleading to base the hook on being counseled or reprimanded over courtesy. (Did you know ... that he got in trouble for a lack of courtesy? Yes, and they fired him.) I appreciate that it was amusing to make a humorous hook over the courtesy thing, but since the page subject is such a serious one (and there are BLP issues about whatever we say here about the police), it may be wrong to put all the emphasis on just one of the rules that he violated and make it sound like he got off with a slap on the wrist.

I know this changes the hook from a witty one to a deeply sad one, but I'm thinking that it would be more appropriate to do something like:

ALT 3 ... that after police beat, choked, and dragged Ronald Greene face-down, the coroner found that he had a fractured breastbone and a ruptured aorta? (source)

ALT 4 ... that after police asked Ronald Greene "That shit hurts, doesn't it?" while pepper-spraying his face, the coroner found that he had a fractured breastbone and a ruptured aorta? (same source)

Again, I recognize that this would be an abrupt change to a deeply tragic hook, but after all, the subject of the page is a tragedy and travesty. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

It may be that DeMoss is going to be fired now -- two years and a firestorm of national outrage later -- but for the preceding two years the totality of consequences was the two letters, which was indeed a slap on the wrist; there's nothing misleading about how A2 reflects that. The appeal (if the term may be pardoned) of A2 is the contrast between what was done to Greene and the consequences (for one of the officers, anyway), and that contrast (or anything like it) is entirely absent in A3 and A4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EEng (talk • contribs) 21:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Would you be open to something along the lines of ALT 2, but with "for two years after, one of them was reprimanded only for violating courtesy and camera-use rules?" (This would also require updating the page to reflect the new source before this DYK could be passed.) done --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

ALT 5 ... that in the two years after police beat, choked, and dragged Ronald Greene face down while shackled, and asked "That shit hurts, doesn't it?" while pepper-spraying his face, one of them was reprimanded only for violating courtesy and camera-use rules?

--Tryptofish (talk) 23:01, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

If hooks could be 252 characters that would really hit the nail on the head. Your concern is BLP but if anyone's actions are being (ever so slightly) misrepresented (and I don't think they are), it's not DeMoss's actions but those of the nameless, faceless police disciplinary apparatus, and a nameless, faceless apparatus isn't an LP. EEng 23:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Great minds think alike (and so do ours): I was just checking the character count, too. (said before you added the sentences after the first one) Could you accept losing the quote ("and asked... his face"), and just having "beat, choked, pepper-sprayed, and dragged" (194 characters) ? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not giving up yet on A2 (I really want the "shit hurts" quote in there, and truth be told, I want it all). Re your latest suggestion, I'm not sure the source supports the "only" bit -- all the source says is that he did get these letters, not that there was nothing else. So I'd argue there's way more of an accuracy problem there than with A2 (and I really don't think A2 is inaccurate). EEng 00:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)