Talk:African-American English

Simple tenses

How is the simple past and simple future tenses formed? -- Beland 13:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Question about phonology

The current phonology section says:

• AAVE is non-rhotic, so the alveolar approximant [ɹ] is usually dropped if not followed by a vowel. However, the [ɹ] may also be dropped in other cases, e.g. "story" realized as "sto'y". This is perhaps due to the use of 'y' as a semi-vowel.

This description seems to be lacking something in the description of cases where intervocalic R is dropped. Just how is story pronounced without an R? What forms the hiatus between the [o] and the [i]? In SAE, it's pronounced [stɔɹi]. If the [ɹ] is deleted, you have a strange monosyllabic word with a [oi] diphthong. Is the word pronounced [stɔi] (as though it were written "stoy"), or is some other hiatus inserted, like [w], [j], or glottal stop? The spelling "sto'y" doesn't really make this clear. Nohat 19:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Never thought about this one. But upon reflection, I'd say it was more of a diphthong -- and not a stop. One question: has anyone come up with an explanation of the use of "scree" for "street"? I understand the unpronounced "t" -- but the substitution of "scr" for "str"? Never got that one. deeceevoice 20:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The link I added yesterday [1] has a very long laundry list of phonological characteristics of AAVE, some of which are probably restricted by locale, social group, or age group. This one is listed as "Backing in /str/ Clusters (BK-str)" but it doesn't provide any other information other than identifying it. No theory about origin or distribution. It references "Bailey & Thomas, 1998; Rickford, 1999".

On the matter of all the features in that document, I think we should consider making a similar page here. We should just keep the major features (like non-rhotacism, cluster reduction, etc.) on this page, but then link to a much longer page of changes. Comments? Nohat 22:11, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Emphasized perfective

The "Standard English" gloss given for "he done did it" is "he already did it". If I understand perfective correctly, would "he's already done it" be a less American phrasing? cf American_and_British_English_differences#Grammar Joestynes 09:37, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are you asking if "he's already done it" is used in SAE? It is, and that is how I would translate 'he done did it'; I'm not messing with the article because I'm not a linguist. I think AAVE also has "he done done it", but again, I don't speak AAVE so I'm leaving it alone. Quill

I don’t know if it’s “less American,” although it does sound much less colloquial to these California ears. Wiki Wikardo

-Ing ---> -Ang

Maybe I overlooked it in the article, but I didn't see mention of -ing to -ang, as in: thing> thang; singin>sangin; ring>rang; and so on. Also, what about adding more slang words most often used in AAVE: yack (>cognac); hoodrat; ghettobird; and so on. James 007 10:45, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Slang is not the same as a dialect; any of those words could be employed in Standard English, and are no means universal to all, or even most AAVE-speakers. (I doubt many, say, rural Texans employ “ghetto bird” with any sort of frequency.) Wiki Wikardo 04:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Another usage that I've heard is "light-skinded" for "light-skinned" (or "dark-skinded", etc.). James 007 10:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Question?

Wasn't the first law suit relating to Ebonics (AAVE) filed against the Ann Arbor Public Schools. Oakland Keeps being mentioned, I know it was a more substantial situation but come on. Want info so maybe include in A2 article. Also am I wrong that Ebonics does not meet the definition of a dialect? Just asking can see this is a topic with a lot of emotions involved and do not want to be offensive to anyone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

There is no universally agreed upon definition of dialect. Every single language that anyone speaks is some kind of dialect, so the question is not whether something is a dialect or not, but whether two language varieties are each a dialect of the same language, or whether they are two entirely different languages (or I guess whether they aren't different enough to be two dialects, and are actually the same dialect of the same language). The general rule-of-thumb among linguists is that two dialects of a language will be mutually intelligable (i.e. the speakers are generally able to understand eachother), whereas speakers of two different languages will not. To be separate dialects, there need to be some kind of lexical (words) or syntactical (grammar) differences. African American English and Standard American English have lexical and syntactical differences, and are mutually intelligable. They'd both be considered dialects of English. So yes, 'Ebonics' qualifies as a dialect. Mahern 20:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I know, and from what I have read all over ther net, only a very limited group of linguists (ones who are politically motivated, or have been paid to produce the "desired" results) seem to support the notion that Ebonics is a lauguage or even a dialect. The view from the majority (no I dont have a representitive sample survey) seem to agree with the general public that it is just a corruption of English, with bad pronunciation and grammar. All my black friends agree that it is just street slang, and the ones who work in big business and community programs view it as something that it's holding back many young black people as when they go to an interview and speak they come accross as uneducated and illiterate.

Also, an interesting article from a very intelligent woman http://www.thepinelog.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/10/19/453740c363cf2

No linguist worth his salt would ever seriously use the word "corruption" when talking about the speech of a community. A major point that all linguists make is that no way of speaking is better than another. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yet Another Question

Who has deemed it necessary to delete large portions of the discussion dialogue? And what justification is being given for this? It is the ongoing discussion that ensues between writers that allows the article to be an unbiased factual piece of information. If those who simply question the writing are silenced and their posts deleted, then what purpose is there in claiming a non-POV and objective article? This is not a dictatorship, and those who do not agree are not to be "wiped" from the discussion board. This is an obvious deviation from prescribed guidlines set forth by Wikipedia. Coldbourne 22:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Intra ethnic

Most speakers of AAVE are bidialectal, since they use Standard American English to varying degrees as well as AAVE. Generally speaking, the degree of exclusive use of AAVE decreases with the rise in socioeconomic status, although almost all speakers of AAVE at all socioeconomic levels readily understand Standard American English. Most blacks, regardless of socioeconomic status, educational background, or geographic region, use some form of AAVE to various degrees in informal and intra-ethnic communication (this selection of variety according to social context is called code switching).

Let's get some numbers (stats) before we assume that "most" Blacks speak a secret language when no one else is around. The sentence in bold makes me think Blacks devolve when they're not being monitored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

I agree that should be cited, but "speak a secret language when no one else is around" is not at all what the quoted bit says. Tuf-Kat 01:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

A brief sample

I (Phlip) added a brief sample above the fold, because this page was making me read many graphs of history and phonology before getting to the sample. I cited the crows in the movie Dumbo because it was such a widely known sample. Someone marked and swept it ;-)

If anyone could think of a better sample, the page could use one before all the academic stuff...

move to "ebonics" (brought back from Archive 2)

it seems rather sugary and a bit of a stretch to refer to ebonics, as it is almost always called, "african american vernacular english", which i don't think i have ever heard in my life. who else feels maybe this article should me moved to "ebonics"? it's not an offensive term. Joeyramoney 21:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

No, "Ebonics" is not an offensive term. Yes, "Ebonics" may have appeared more often in the popular press. Yes, "Ebonics" has been used by linguists as well as educators, politicians and journalists (and right-wing blowhards, etc.). However, the article is primarily about linguistics rather than education or politics; and in linguistics "Ebonics" is not a widely used term; it's much less common than AAVE (typically spelled out the first time, abbreviated thereafter). It might be a good idea to split this article into (1) "African American Vernacular English", a purely descriptive article devoid of any mention of education or politics (the same sort of article that's provided for, say, Baltimorese), and (2) "The Ebonics debate", an article about all the politicking. (I don't say it would be a good idea; just that it doesn't obviously seem a bad idea.) But retitling a single article "Ebonics" seems a bad idea. (And I've a hunch that it would prompt yet more cracker vandalism.) -- Hoary 00:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC) PS I've no idea of how referring to Ebonics/AAVE as "AAVE" is either "rather sugary" or "a bit of a stretch". -- Hoary 09:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Fully agree with Hoary. The term "Ebonics" reached its current status in popular consciousness because of the Oakland School Board gaffe. AAVE is the more sterile term, but that's a Good Thing; people don't have nearly as many misguided opinions, for better or for worse, about AAVE than they do about Ebonics. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 08:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think sugar-coating the name will do exactly that. It's like the way we have "Tiananmen Square Protests" instead of "Tiananmen Square Massacre." Of course some people are going to immediately have a negative perception of the article because it's using an awkward term not in common usage for the sake of political correctness. Liu Bei 16:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

By "sugar-coating the name", precisely what are you referring to? (If you are referring to the use of "AAVE" for "Ebonics", this is not sugar-coating but instead is the standard term, as pointed out above.) I also find it hard to parse your final sentence; but since "political correctness" is a near-meaningless term (seemingly used by the anglophone right for anything they don't like), I can't be bothered to make the attempt. Finally, your would-be analogy makes no sense: "violence" or "arrests" could indeed be euphemistic for "massacre", but "protest" simply refers to something else. -- Hoary 04:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Although Ebonics does indeed seem to be the way the dialect is referred to jocularly by most everyone in the U.S. as of 2006, its popular use is recent, and may or may not decline as time goes on (although, years after the Oakland controversy, I’m shocked at its resilience). About a week ago I was with a group, one of whom asked what Ebonics meant—she thought she knew, but wasn’t sure. While I wish I hadn’t chimed in with “Black English” (I’m curious as to what folk explanation would have been given by the group, which was from a predominantly white community and had had few one-on-one interactions with blacks—I wonder if the phrases “ain’t got no” or “stupid phat” would have been employed) it immediately disambiguated the situation. In most serious discussions of the variety, though, Black Vernacular English seems to have given way to African-American Vernacular English, which, though wordier, is a good thing on an international encyclopedia. Ebonics, though of academic origins, would strike me as a slangy or uninformed title for this article, due to its current popular association. Indeed, I found the article by going to AAVE and hoping AAVE wouldn't stand for anything else (I hate typing). Wiki Wikardo 05:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one that finds it odd that our speech is so radically different, that it warrants a title? What is to be said of rural southern whites whose speech is probably closer to ours than standard english? If anything, AAVE is merely an offspring, and not that far off, of southern dialect period. Seems odd to single out one people does it not...? If you ask me a more appropriate name would be (RCSAO) or Results of Centuries of Systematic Academic Oppression :-) 68.48.90.208 08:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)Employee 022784

Southern American English has its own article, too.

In the 19th century certain ways of speaking that are now proudly worn by white Southerners as symbols of their Southernness, such as the use of a single vowel in place of the diphthong in the word I, were despised by white people as Africanisms. The African influence is one of the main reasons that contemporary Southern U.S. English sounds so distinctive. -- Ireneshusband 07:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Our speech" clearly has origins in various West African languages, with pronunciational and grammatical/syntactical rules which are substantially different from SAE -- all of which make it a dialect. To ignore these facts is to ignore our origins and the obvious, glaring fact that we are not simply dark-skinned "Americans." You want to pretend that we came here as a blank slate, culturally, or that our tortured tenure in this nation somehow robbed us of every, single vestige of our Africanness -- despite ample evidence to the contrary? Fine. Deny it if you must. But dispassionate observation of the myriad manifestations of the imprint of Mother Africa in everyday African-American culture and common sense say otherwise. The label is an appropriate one.

Finally and BTW, I find the term "Ebonics" insulting -- for many of the same reasons I eschew the term "Negro." I prefer AAVE; it comes without all the ignorant, racist baggage associated with the Oakland blowup over using AAVE as a pedagogical tool. deeceevoice 14:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily saying it should bemoved, but the wikipedia policy according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions is "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature," which would seem to indicate that it should be moved. I can't speak for anybody else, but I have never heard it refered to as "african american vernacular english." It maybe be more commonly refered to as such in academic/linguistic circles, but again the policy is to put the article at where the average person is going to look, and I don't think the average person has heard "african american vernacular english" as a term. For the same general reason, the article is under Bill Clinton and not William Jefferson Clinton, for example. (Obviously if it is an offensive term this might not be an appropriate thing to do, and I can't really comment as to whether it is or isn't, though I have not heard it used as one).--Derco 23:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, for most people I've spoken to "Ebonics" immediately calls up the Oakland Resolution and surrounding controversy, which is not what this article is about. I believe that the term was made up by the people involved in that resolution, and is a bit of a misnomer anyways since it comes from the word "phonics" (which only refers to the sound system of AAE when the difference is mostly syntactical). In just about every instance I've heard, people who use the word "Ebonics" are referring to it negatively, and more neutral or positive comments use "Black English", "African American English", or "AAVE". Anyone who is actually talking about it as a language system tends to use those terms. There's also been a slight move from some in the linguistics communtity to take out the word "vernacular" since it has slightly negative connotations, and AAE is increasingly being used in print. "African American English" seems a bit more self explanatory. What about moving it to that? Mahern 20:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"Jive" a synonym?

Is "Jive" really a synonym for AAVE? I'd thought it properly referred to a slang subset of it.--Pharos 23:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

hi, not sure if this has already been addressed but I think saying "jive" is a synonym of AAVE is prob on the order of saying, say, yiddish and hebrew are synonymous. or "native" is the same as all the languages spoken on papua new guinea. ok, that's over the top. airplane was a great flick, to the extent that.. bye. Kɔffeedrinksyou 17:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

i think "colloquially known as" is cool. izl. Kɔffeedrinksyou 04:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

hopefully if people call some speech jive, they mean one example, and don't refer to the entire code as cajoling/misleading. yeah. Kɔffeedrinksyou 04:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Pharos is correct. "Jive" is a term for African-American slang. It does not refer to AAVE as a whole. deeceevoice 14:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems HIGHLY unlikely to me that "jive" is from Zulu. The Zulu word is most likely taken from English, as the "i" that it starts with seems to suggest. Compare "iphepha" (newspaper). [[2]] relates it to a Wolof word. There has historically beem very little (or practically no) Zulu emigration (forced or otherwise) to the US. Petrus 10:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Now Jive is being called a "pejorative" name. I don't think this is really any more accurate than calling it a synonym. To my knowledge, Jive is just a name for African American slang. Now, I suppose some folks could use "Jive" for general AAVE in a pejorative way, but I don't think that's especially common.--Pharos 16:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV?

This article seems to gloss over all controversy associated with AAVE/Ebonics in the US by merely saying "it happened." Is there a reference that can be included to detail this, as it is relatively important in public perception of the dialect. Gleffler 01:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Is the content of the "Educational issues" section insufficient? (Is there any other controversy?) -- Hoary 04:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

---

I created that ass- redirect to this article. I gotta say I don't have a source other than "the streets". I'v heard people say it many times and if you think about it that's a pretty good source for AAVE. anyone else who's studdied AAVE could prob confirm. I need help on wikipedia:wikiProject Sociolinguistics/Slang! Kɔffeedrinksyou 17:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

---

I rearranged some stuff.
under grammatical features was
phonology, lexical

now it's
phono, all the grammar (largest piece), lexical
Kɔffeedrinksyou 08:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

West African origins

I removed the questionable claim that multiple negation “can be traced to West African languages”—indeed, I’m sure there are many West African languages that use double negatives (that ain’t my area of expertise) but many, many other other non-standard Englishes (to which the first American black speakers of English would have been exposed) also do. And don’t other dialects of English similarly use “to be” without conjugation?

I ain’t heard from nobody on this, so I’m being bold. Wiki Wikardo 17:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, maybe I’m being (overly) pedantic, but would African-American Vernacular English (with hyphen) be preferrable? —Wiki Wikardo 04:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And I must say, “me fall asleep, massa, and no wake 'til you come” don’t sound like any AAVE I’ve ever heard. Wiki Wikardo 17:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It isn't. That's pidgin. deeceevoice 22:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Changes Explained

This article seems to have a lot of controversy, so I just thought I'd explain my edits, so they don't seem malicious.

I changed the line on code switching, because it sounded like it was saying code switching is only using different dialects for different social groups. Every time I've heard it used before, it was in reference to bilingual people switching back to their native language in a foreign country for convience (frequently in mid sentence) This seems to be the more common usuage of the word. Altarbo 05:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Story as "sto'y"

According to this article, intervocalic /ɹ/ may also be dropped e.g. "story" realized as "sto'y" i.e. [stɔi]. Is that supposed to mean that the word is pronounced as if it were spelled "stoy"?

I don't think so. I get the impression that it keeps the number of syllables intact so it would be more like [stɔ.i] AEuSoes1 06:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia

Is there an AAVE Wikipedia? If not can I make one?Cameron Nedland 20:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• • No, you can't make an AAVE Wikipedia. Voortle 01:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that AAVE has a conventional written form which would seem to be a prerequisite for a wikipedia. Numskll 21:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay.Cameron Nedland 04:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Revert due to defacement by I'm a sawk

I just created an account to revert the page, I hope I'm following protocol. --Arglesnaf 02:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Metathesis

Are there other common examples of metathesis apart from ask becoming aks? I ask because that particular example is not restricted at all the AAVE - it goes back to Old English. If we're only talking about isolated examples like that, then it's probably wrong to include metathesis as a feature of AAVE specifically - all English speakers do (and have done) it from time to time. garik 23:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

You know, garik, good point. I've heard aks is inherited from non-standard forms of English, and was part of prestige dialects as late as, like, the 18th century or something. In fact my first encounter with it was from a white kid. Accordingly, I'm excising that li'l tidbit. —Wiki Wikardo 20:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, as Garik correctly pointed out, aks is inherited from standard Anglo-Saxon. If anything, ask is the metathesized form inherited from substandard dialects. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

According to this article http://www.rehabmed.ualberta.ca/spa/phonology/features.htm "grasp" can also become "graps" in AAVE, hence an example of metathesis apart from "ask" becoming "aks". Klooge 22:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but if you check an etymological dictionary, you'll find that graps is Old English as well. Apparently that was originally the only form, though both were current in Middle English. Of course, many aspects of AAVE are shared with other dialects. Maybe we could add something like 'retention of non-standard metathesised forms like...' I know that technically the standard forms are the result of metathesis, but that may be unnecessarily pedantic for this article. garik 09:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

*lol* I just think it’s funny you gonna use the word metathesis (I think I pronounced that right) then worry about being pedantic. As long as we’re making a technical explanation, why not strive for accuracy? Wiki Wikardo 11:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

A fair point:) Well, I've included a rewritten version of the metathesis point, though it's probably not terribly elegant. garik 13:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Dude. I know metathesis is a good fifty-cent word, but why include it if it ain’t? Wiki Wikardo 18:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Because it might be. We don't know for sure that they're not examples of metathesis; just because they're in Old English doesn't mean they didn't arise anew in AAVE. The other thing is that there must be other examples of non-standard archaisms retained in or borrowed into AAVE, and it's a bit weird to only have two examples that look like metathesis (besides, if it's not metathesis, it shouldn't be listed under phonology). So we either keep 'metathesis' plus health warning or we stick them in with some other archisms (though not under the heading of Phonology). For now, the first option seems best to me. What we really need is data on whether these really are the only examples. garik 19:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

According to this article, http://www.eng.umu.se/city/therese/Linguistics/phonological_features_examples.htm "wasp" can also become "waps", hence being another example besides "grasp" and "ask" becoming "graps" and "aks". I've starting an article about this phenominum at s-cluster metathesis. Feel free to edit it to improve the article. Voortle 20:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Also common in Old English! I'd love to know if these are inheritances or new metatheses! garik 22:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Please...

This article analyses the grammar and phonetics of ebonics in a way that would be completly incomprehensible to anyone who speaks that language. Similar to when a bunch of white men get together and transcribe Coltrane solos, then write "jazz education" essays about what he was "going for" at the time.

Ebonics is not some well-conceived design of a language. It's an accident--the natural evolution (or degeneration)of American English as spoken by African Americans over many years--and shouldn't be presented as anything else. To dissect the grammatical variations of this speach pattern is to miss the point completely. This language is entirely based on NOT understanding the rules of grammer, and on making mistakes and keeping them in the language. No one sat down and designed any of the rules that this article focuses on, and if you discussed this with a native Ebonics speaker, he wouldn't have the first clue what you're talking about.

This article is written about Ebonics, by people who don't speak Ebonics, for people who don't speak Ebonics. Solid.

People who speak Ebonics read very few articles, if they read anything at all.66.82.9.82 03:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Jamba T'rone

You could say that about every other natural language that exists. In that sense, AAVE is no different than any other language or dialect. Nevertheless, it is not based on not understanding the rules of grammar, since it has its own grammar. Your understanding of it is based on not understanding what grammar even is. AEuSoes1 20:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolute agreement with AEuSoes1 here. Just because AAVE doesn't have a strong tradition of prescription, doesn't mean it shouldn't be properly described.--Pharos 22:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

No, son. It IS based on not understanding the rules of American English grammar. Which accounts for its phonetic similarities to American English, but differences (misuses) in word meanings. Show me the text in which every rule of Ebonics grammar is explained, and I'll show you a life-sized cardboard cut-out of Ted Danson.

African American English: A Linguistic Introduction is a good start. There are many books on the linguistics and grammar of AAVE, including books on narrow topics. This is a general introduction. Rlitwin 19:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It sounds to me like there are two things you're getting at. First is an Emic/Etic distinction. Most research articles are written from the etic perspective, that is the prespective of the researcher. Second, all language develops by modifying old grammar rules or creating new ones; and almost never is this done intentionally and willfully. AAVE does use a different grammar, which has roots in English (among others). But to say it is simply English misunderstood is not more correct than to say American English is really Latin misunderstood.

For example, I can say "I wrote an agenda for the meeting." However, the word Agenda is plural in Latin (singular Agendum); over time people have made it singular in English. This does not mean that English speakers are incorrect; they have simply modified usages over time. AAVE is no different. --TeaDrinker 19:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The only languages that may have completely explicated grammars are ones that have been constucted. All descriptive grammars of 'naturally occuring' languages are in fact assembled by deriving the rules from examples of the language in use. The idea that Ebonics is somehow a dengenerative form of English because a written grammer doesn't exist belies this fact. However, I do think Ebonics might be something of a special case because of its perhaps unique origins and its widespread use. It seems to shares attributes (to my laymen's mind) with creoles, a class-based dialect, and perhaps a cant( in that it may be used by the minority to exclude the majority). Numskll 20:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll concede that no written proof exists of Agamemnon's sexual exploits, but what does that really have to do with The Colonel's secret recipe anyway? For all we know, she may have called right after Kissinger left the hotel room. In which case, we'd both be wrong here. Nevertheless, I maintain that with determination, hard work, and a little bit of luck, even you can be a winner at the game of life. All my children--L. Ells

IPA

do we have to fix this page? I mean, it's a talk page. Do we have to talk in the standard, and if someone doesn't, do we have to edit what they said to conform to the standard? --Cheeesemonger 16:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed that notice; the Talk page certainly does not have to conform to the Manual of Style.

On a possibly related note, I removed the parenthetical from the following passage in the article, because I couldn't figure out what "fi-t&n" means:

He finna [or "fittin' (fi-t&n) nuh"] go to work.

Here's the diff. --zenohockey 03:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Regional (i.e., southern) slant to definition of AAVE?

The definition and the application of AAVE seems to associate with southern African-Americans and descendents of southern African-Americans. Does the definition of AAVE not apply to those African-American individuals whose roots were principally outside of the south, such as individuals whose ancestors lived in the north prior to 1865? Perhaps some of the speech of these individuals might be measured in communities having concentrations of such individuals, e.g., Oak Bluffs, Nantucket Island, off Cape Cod, Massachusetts. (To a lesser extent: Edgartown and Gay Head. -Their African-American populations are low; but websites have referred to a historic presence of African-Americans.) Dogru144 07:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this definition applies to the southern part of the United States. Moreover, in my opinion, blacks in southern states that use "African-American Venacular" have either little formal education or live in rural areas. I have never heard a black person in the North East use this accent when speaking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.132.194.121 (talk • contribs)

Maybe it's because they don't want you thinking they're uneducated, stupid, or from rural areas so they code-switch while you're around. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there enough Oakland/Ebonics event info in this article?

Yes? No? Maybe? How 'bout this: Why doesn't it move to Oakland_Unified_School_District#Ebonics_controversy and we just leave a link here? Better yet: Why not make a current-event-style article about it? I don't know what the terminology is for a Wiki article on an event that's no longer current. What's in this article is five times longer than the Oakland School Board article, and about a third of the entire AAVE article.

"Weasel words"

A template that I have just removed alleged that the text that followed contained weasel words. I saw no weasel word, no SGML comment saying that this or that word was a weasel, and no mention on this talk page of how this or that word was a weasel.

Anyone who wants to stick this template back in the article should say which word is, or words are, weasel. -- Hoary 10:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Citation for assertion of non-existence

I read (after markup-stripping):

AAVE is often erroneously perceived by members of mainstream American society as indicative of low intelligence or limited education. Furthermore, as with many other non-standard dialects and especially creoles, AAVE sometimes has been called "lazy" or "bad" English by those unfamiliar with creolization, or the role of null phonemes, or by those who do not understand AAVE's use of aspect for tense in some cases. Such appraisals also may be due, in part, to racial or ethnic bias. However, among linguists there is no such controversy^{[citation needed]}

It seems that the editor who put that {{fact}} tag there wants evidence for the lack of a controversy.

Somewhere there may indeed be an authoritative book whose author credibly asserts that there is no controversy. But I don't think authors of related books would bother to say this. And they don't bother because they routinely, straightforwardly and convincingly demonstrate how AAVE is not "bad". Or anyway, it's easy to show people who are willing to read and consider the arguments presented in three pages or so of text. You'll find one example on pp 29-31 of the Morrow hardback (first) edition of Pinker's The Language Instinct. (The pagination of a paperback is probably different. Well, look near the start of chapter two.) In fact Pinker isn't even a linguist (he's a psychologist), but no linguist is likely to disagree with him here.

If there is a controversy among actual, working, present-day linguists (as opposed to linguists of decades ago, or people from other specialties dipping their toes in linguistics, or the occasional prematurely senile linguist, etc.), where is it? Until this controversy is shown, I'm deleting this request for a citation. -- Hoary 10:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if there was a controversy, for the simple reason that the question whether a particular way of speaking is "bad" is not open to scientific investigation. Any discussion presented in the language of morality ("bad English" vs. "good English") cannot reasonably be resolved by a rational argument, hence it's not something that scholars or scientists worry about. One has to take one step back and ask whether people have certain attitudes about AAVE (which they certainly do) to be firmly within the realm of the behavioral sciences: describing which groups of a population hold the belief that AAVE is or isn't "good English" is a valid scientific endeavor; trying to determine authoritatively what is and isn't "good English" is not. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Crack open any introductory linguistics text, especially a sociolinguistics one, and they're bound to say very early on about how there is no good or bad language. This can naturally be extended to AAVE and the burden of proof is on editors who wish to include a linguist-based controversy. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well said, with very minor reservations. (Linguists can and do point out and discuss problems with the way particular people speak. See the literature on specific language impairment, for example. But they don't assert that sociolects are linguistically deficient.) I'm tired of the demand to give any space to any contrary "point of view" that's merely the recycling of ignorance, perhaps encouraged by the effusions of blowhards who often pride themselves on their lack of curiosity. There are indeed very big questions in linguistics (for example, nativism has recently come under intelligent and reasoned attack), and for these, contrary points of view should be presented; there's no comparable question here. -- Hoary 02:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Of the last fifty edits, a third has been pure vandalism and another third reverts. More and more I'm feeling like the editors monitoring this page are bogged down with needless vandalism that would be easily remedied if the page were blocked from editing by unregistered users. This page has gotten more than random attention by bad faith editing for quite some time. What do other people think? Would such an act be a soft of sledgehammer for the cockaroch? Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 11:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Good article

I just wanted to say to all who've contributed here that this is a really good, informative article. Yes, it is a bit difficult for people not versed in all the terminology of linguistics to read (and I am one) but it manages to describe this difficult (and potentially controversial, I think) subject in an even-handed and encyclopedic way. And it's impossible to do that without using linguistics termonolgy. I looked it up because I was randomly thinking about some aspect of this dialect and my question was more than answered. Good work! Dina 23:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I have to agree. Very interesting, though it might be better footnoted. Has anyone thought to suggest it as a Featured Article? Or at least have it reviewed. • I would not want to see the linguistic chart removed. • I also have, "never heard the theta to t shift (ie. thin to tin) in AAVE," and would more likely associate that with a caribbean dialect. • Having encountered a few persons on the South Carolina coast speaking Gullah, I find that an interesting language, and surprisingly difficult to follow. Darentig 16:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Format

I think it would be better if this article were formatted more like some of the other "variety of English" pages. For example, an IPA chart showing the phonology of AAVE would be nice. The verb system could be described on its own without reference to English, ie. instead of saying " 'he done gone' is equivalent to Standard English 'he went'", we could just say that 'he done gone' is the past perfect form. I'm not adamant about this; if there are any objections I'd be glad to hear them. Makerowner 19:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Phonological features

I've never heard the theta to t shift (ie. thin to tin) in AAVE. This is a feature of Caribbean dialects. I also think that the phonological rules diagram is unnecessary and possibly confusing to those without linguistic training. I would like to rewrite this section without the diagram and with corrected rules, unless someone can find a source for the voiceless dental stopping. Makerowner 19:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the diagram is all right because it provides a technical explanation after a less technical one. Check the sources that are on the page for the th->t thing. If none of them say anything, I can probably find a source. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the sources and they do mention the voiceless interdental stopping, but they also make it clear that it is rare. The page (and especially the diagram) present it like a regular rule that is always applied. Makerowner 04:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Just...no.

I'm pretty sure the AAVE word "bogus" comes from the Latin word "bogus" which is cognate with the English word "bogus". Either that or every word of AAVE is actually derrived from various Niger-Congo Group A language words which are both homonymous and synonymous with English by pure coincidence. Perhaps this is a situation that calls for Ockham's razor.

My Shorter OECD lists 'bogus' as 'unknown etymology'. I don't think there is a Latin word 'bogus'. I have no opinion about any Niger-Congo derivation. Makerowner 04:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Bias

Something in this article stinks of not following NPOV. Take the following example:

"Despite the clear linguistic evidence, the American public and policymakers remain divided over whether to even recognize AAVE as a legitimate dialect of English, perhaps due to unfounded feelings that AAVE is a degradation of the English (which may, in turn, be an indication of underlying racial determinism)."

I'm not entirely sure about calling the evidence "clear," though what concerns me more is the accusation of public feelings as being "unfounded." 67.9.36.176 16:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The evidence, at a bare minimum, is simply the linguistic definitions of accent, dialect, and language. I suppose they are unfounded because there's really no evidence to indicate that it is a "degradation" of English any more than modern English is a degradation of Old English. Do you have a better word than unfounded? Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Concern

Reading through this article, I can't help but feel that it was written with a distinct pro-AAVE bias. The following lines especially struck me as non-neutral:

Furthermore, as with many other non-standard dialects and especially creoles, AAVE sometimes has been called "lazy" or "bad" English. Such appraisals may be due, in part, to racial or ethnic bias. However, among linguists there is no such controversy, since AAVE, like all dialects, shows consistent internal logic and structure.

To dismiss negative appraisals of AAVE as being due to racial or ethnic bias (even with the "in part" thrown in as some sort of disclaimer) is, in my opinion, irresponsible and even a bit dangerous. I'd like to know which published study or paper found that, without a doubt, "racial or ethnic bias" was behind some people's opposition to AAVE.

The overwhelming controversy and debates concerning AAVE in public schools insinuate the deeper, more implicit deterministic attitudes towards the African-American community as a whole.

Insinuations, especially ones that explain away opposition to a topic by accusing those opposed of "deterministic attitudes towards the African-American community as a whole," have no place in an encyclopedia. Such insinuations (assumptions, whatever you want to call them) are very dangerous in a politically- and racially-sensitive article such as this one. Statements like this really need to be cited, or else omitted altogether.

Finally, I noticed that something written by Smitherman was cited quite frequently throughout this article; however, the source was not correctly & explicitly cited in the References section. Without the actual Smitherman article to read, I can only assume that it is also written with a strong pro-AAVE bias.

In light of these issues, I've very tempted to tag this article with an NPOV warning. I'll wait for responses to my comments before doing so.

Don't get me wrong - despite these concerns, I still found the article to be thorough, informative & well-written. It definitely answered my questions. Rhrad 16:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to see the racism, but I think you're right. There needs to be some citation for allegations of racial bias. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I put some cites in (in that area). However, I agree that the article has kind of a POV tone, and is in need, generally, of some Wikification. Superabo 19:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate both of your responses. After reading up on Wikipedia policies and the different options available, I've marked this article with a POV-check template. This seemed less extreme to me than an NPOV template, but might still attract a fresh pair of eyes to take a look at the article, and maybe clean it up & Wikify it a bit.

Thanks again for the clear, intelligent responses (I was afraid my comment might be taken as flamebait and/or draw accusations of racism).

Also, Superabo, I hope you don't mind, I indented your comment so any new editors that come here because of the POV-check template will know that this was one continuous thread. Rhrad 16:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree with the contention that opposition and criticism of AAVE has to be racist. It is a fact that AAVE is rudimentary compared to basic English. The complexity of AAVE words are limited and you rarely see polysyllabic words used in AAVE. It is also true that the vast majority of AAVE speakers are uneducated and come from urban areas. Criticizing AAVE for it’s lack of complexity and ability to effectively deliver complex ideas has absolutely nothing to do with “race”. I also see absolutely nothing in this article about the fact that a large number of Caucasians also speak something very similar to AAVE. Especially those who are interested in the so called “hip hop culture”.Wikidudeman 15:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that opposition to recognition of AAVE is not necessarily racist, I disagree completely with the characterization of AAVE as "rudimentary". No modern linguist or even scientifically-oriented person should say that one speech form is 'rudimetary' while another is not. These valuations are based solely on history and sociology: if Blacks had enslaved and transported Whites to Africa, we might have a page about 'Caucasian-African Vernacular Swahili' (or any other African language) and someone would post about how simple and uneducated it is. Second, linguists recognize that all concepts conceivable by the human mind can be expressed in any language. Complex ideas can be effectively portrayed in any speech variety. Third, AAVE and 'Black slang' are not the same thing. The 'many Caucasians who speak something very similar to AAVE' are mostly copying this slang as part of hip-hop culture, as was noted in the previous post. AAVE is an independent variety of English with a distinct grammar from other forms of English. Fourth, to say that criticizing AAVE has nothing to do with "race" is like saying that criticizing Black music (jazz, blues, rock, funk, soul, the list goes on...) has nothing to do with race. AAVE is a central part of Black culture and identity: that's why almost all Blacks still speak it despite having lived amongst speakers of different White dialects for decades and being spread across the whole country. Fifth, saying that AAVE doesn't have polysyllabic words is a) irrelevant, and b) not true. Using polysyllabic words does not make you intelligent, or show your intelligence, or even sound better most of the time. Most style guides recommend using shorter words wherever possible. Whether a certain language variety uses polysyllabic words has nothing to do with its sophistication or intelligence. Chinese, for example, is overwhelmingly monosyllabic; does it also "lack...complexity and ability to effectively deliver complex ideas"? I don't believe that the previous poster was being consciously racist, just culturally insensitive. By looking at language in an unscientific manner, one can easily be caught by racist attitudes that prevail in society.

Sorry for the rant, but this issue is close to me, and I can't stand it when people who don't know what they're talking about continue to spread ignorance about this important aspect of Black culture. Makerowner 05:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll refute what you said piece by piece. 1. I don't know any 'modern linguists' so I can't tell you what they would say but I myself am a scientifically-oriented person and I consider AAVE to be rudimentary English. However to make it easier for discussion I will say that what I mean to say is I consider AAVE to be "unsophisticated English" by the fact it is 'without complexity or refinements' compared to American English and British English. 2. What the hip hop artists and rappers use is a form of AAVE. It uses the same syntax and grammar. 3. Even assuming AAVE is a 'central part of African American culture" criticizing it doesn't have to have anything to do with race. 4.AAVE does NOT have many if any polysyllabic. People who speak AAVE tend to use simple words that can not convey much complex meaning. Give me one example of an AAVE polysyllabic word that isn't also a word in AmE or Bme. 5. I'm not saying that a language is unsophisticated due to lack of polysyllabic words. Chinese is a separate example due to it's number of words and it's grammar. It can't be compared to English.Wikidudeman 07:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact that AAVE is rudimentary compared to basic English. What is this "basic English"? Do you perhaps mean standard American English? And what do you mean by "rudimentary" -- morphologically impoverished, or something else? The complexity of AAVE words are limited... I'm a bit lost here. Can you tell me what the subject of this sentence is? "Complexity" perhaps? If so, it seems you've interestingly simplifed the paradigm of BE, so that the third-person singular as well as plural form is "are". Or are you taking the noun that's the closest antecedent to be the syntactic subject? Either way, most interesting! [Y]ou rarely see polysyllabic words used in AAVE. Really? I'd thought that the rap CDs I possess were in AAVE and that there were a lot of polysyllabic words in the lyrics. (Copyright considerations prevent me from reproducing a sample here.) It is also true that the vast majority of AAVE speakers are uneducated and come from urban areas. You're onto something with education: read Jonathan Kozol. And urban, yes. So? The vast majority of, say, Japanese speakers a couple of hundred years ago were uneducated; does this mean that their Japanese was rudimentary? Just what do you want to say about the relationship between language and education? Criticizing AAVE for it’s [sic] lack of complexity and ability to effectively deliver complex ideas has absolutely nothing to do with “race”. Really? What else has it got to do with? (Incidentally, the standard way to write the genitive pronoun is "its", no apostrophe. At least among the better educated.) I also see absolutely nothing in this article about the fact that a large number of Caucasians also speak something very similar to AAVE. That's a sad omission. I hope that it will be rectified by some intelligent person who has studied language. -- Hoary 05:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Rudimentary as in unsophisticated. Lack of polysyllabic words words as I stated earlier and inability to convey complex ideas, Such as scientific ideas. Give me one example of a science journal using AAVE.Wikidudeman 07:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

1. It has nothing to do with 'race' because both African and Caucasian Americans use it. 2. Criticizing my grammar due to 1 apostrophe and saying that it is how the "better educated" use it is not only desperate and pathetic but its also an example of you being in agreement with me. That how someone speaks and their educational background are generally in agreement. Oh and BTW..You misspelled 'rudimentary' in your 1st post. But I didn't bother to point that out before due to it being 100% irrelevant.Wikidudeman 07:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you dispute a claim that the overwhelming majority of speakers of AAVE are people normally termed African American? If so, I'd like to see your evidence (from a solid piece of sociolinguistics research, please). If not, then I think we can accept that AAVE has something to do with race. The opprobrium with which it's greeted may very well be something else too: African Americans are overrepresented in the US underclass, and urban lects are for some reason traditionally stigmatized; race aside, it's hardly surprising that this urban basilect is looked down on by some. Criticizing my grammar due to 1 apostrophe and saying that it is how the "better educated" use it is not only desperate and pathetic but its [sic] also an example of you being in agreement with me. I only criticize the linguistic abilities of those who gratuitously and uninformedly criticize that of others. This time you omitted an apostrophe that would be required in, say, any scientific journal; but apostrophe use is indeed a minor concern: it's merely a matter of orthography, unlike, say, your earlier complexity ... are.... You are of course free to ascribe desperation and pathos to my comments. -- Hoary 07:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Also this article is in violation of WP:NPOV because it provides no alternative viewpoints concerning AAVE. It does not provide any criticism of it's use or correlation between those who use it and their general educational background. How can you claim this article is NPOV when it doesn't even have opposing viewpoints on it's use and impact?Wikidudeman 07:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

What alternative viewpoint concerning AAVE is worth presenting? As for criticism of its use, I see no criticism of the use of Cockney, Chicano English, Buffalo English, etc., and fail to see why the use of this or any lect should be criticized. As for a correlation use and educational level, do you have any solid information from a credible sociolinguistics source? -- Hoary 07:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, When addressing my posts try to keep yours as brief as possible otherwise I won't have time to refute them. Thanks. Wikidudeman 07:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Wikidudeman, but being "scientifically oriented" is no substitute for reading actual linguistic discourse regarding AAVE and linguistics in general. Pointing out that scientific journals aren't published in AAVE completely neglects the complex sociolinguistic relationship that AAVE has with other dialects of English. While you and others certainly have an opinion regarding AAVE, it has no place in an article like this (which seeks to discuss linguistic aspects of this dialect) any more than my opinions on Australian English do on that dialect's page. Wikipedia is based on sources and unless you've got a scholarly source, the exclusion of "criticism" regarding AAVE usage (which doesn't exist btw) does not belong in the article. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 08:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not discussing 'opinions' here. I'm discussing facts. It is a fact that AAVE is not used in scientific texts adding credence to the fact it's unsophisticated. It's a fact that most AAVE users are uneducated. Also adding evidence to the fact. These are 'established facts' and thus belong.Wikidudeman 05:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You are attempting to discuss a mixture of (a) facts of no significance and (b) non-facts. -- Hoary 07:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The spelling mistake in 'rudimentary' was mine, though I agree that pointing out the mistake with its/it's is unnecessary. Many well-educated writers have difficulty with that rule, and the meaning was perfectly clear. That said, I disagree with nearly everything else Wikidudeman has posted. 1. You don't actually 'refute' my point in any way: I myself am a scientifically-oriented person and I consider AAVE to be rudimentary English. Find a legitimate linguist of the past fifty years who says that AAVE is a rudimentary form of English, then post your viewpoint with citations from that source. Many British English speakers feel that American English lacks 'complexity and refinements', and the French feel the same way about the British, etc. Everyone considers their speech form in some way better than others; this in itself is not necessarily a problem. The scientific study of language is meant to overcome these natural prejudices and allow us to learn more about other people and their cultures by learning about their language. People are of course free to make aesthetic judgements about languages, but to say that one is rudimentary compared to another is to belittle the culture of that language's speakers. 2. Perhaps I didn't explain properly what I meant about slang. Yes, rappers use AAVE, but the main elements picked up by Whites are the slang elements. Many older people with no interest in slang speak AAVE, and many Whites with little knowledge of AAVE use slang that has its origins in Black language nonetheless. 3. I must again stress that AAVE and Black culture are intrinsically tied to Black identity and are therefore connected to race. If someone were to say that the Indo-European language family is rudimentary compared to the Afro-Asiatic, or any other, this is an attack on European culture, and by definition, European identity. This issue is of course more sensitive for Black culture, because it has only been (partially) recognized as legitimate within the last 40-or-so years. 4. AAVE is a dialect of English and uses nearly all words that General American does. To exclude all these words from its vocabulary when searching for polysyllabics is ridiculous. How many polysyllabic words does General American have if you don't count all the ones that it shares with British English? And to say that AAVE words have simple meanings is also ridiculous. If anything, it is the wide range of meanings that AAVE applies to standard English words that separates it from other Englishes. The behaviour known as signifiying constantly applies new meanings to old words. This is also the way that slang works, and AAVE has been one of the greatest sources of slang in the US. Again, I must point out that linguists consider all languages (or language varieties) equally capable of conveying complex ideas. Since AAVE uses nearly all the same words as other Englishes, to say that it cannot convey the same meanings is nonsense. I am glad at least that Wikidudeman can recognize that Chinese is not rudimentary, despite is few polysyllabics; why then can't AAVE be recognized as a 'separate example'? I will keep my posts short if Wikidudeman stops providing me with material. Makerowner 03:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I asked you to keep it brief but you decided to rant on for several paragraphs making it impossible for me to refute everything you said due to my having a life outside wikipedia. Please try to re-explain what you said briefly so that I can actually address it.Wikidudeman 05:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

To call Makerowner's last response a "rant" seems curious, and it takes the form of a single paragraph. I'll keep it brief. Does your life outside Wikipedia extend to reading even elementary (but well informed) linguistics books that deal with AAVE? If so, which ones? -- Hoary 06:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

When someone goes on a long drawn out tirade like that then it's a 'rant'. It might of been in the 'form of a single paragraph' but it contained literally several paragraphs worth of sentences. Does my life outside of wikipedia deal with reading AAVE books? Irrelevant. Only the issues are relevant here not my personal life.Wikidudeman 10:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

First, how was this a "tirade"? Secondly, It might of been: Really, Dude Man, writers of standard English, and of course the editors of science journals, would insist on It might have been, which I thought was standard among educated speakers of English. Third, your personal life is indeed irrelevant to this article; your background seems not to be, as your comments here seem to show a stunning ignorance of the basics of sociolinguistics. -- Hoary 15:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikidudeman, you need to clean up your etiquette. Many people have put hours worth of work in this page and your request to limit responses to your comments (and calling failures to do so "rants") because you have an outside life is unreasonable and inappropriate. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I did go on long with my response. I didn't keep it short because there were too many points to refute. However, I've noticed the box at the top of the page asking us not to debate the subject of the article and I think that's probably a good idea. Although I obviously don't agree with Wikidudeman's perspective, my various points (and those of many others) don't seem to have changed his mind. That is also not Wikipedia's purpose, so I will avoid this discussion where possible. I will, however, watch the article to make sure none of this perspective gets in without proper expert sources (which I'm 99% certain do not exist). Sorry to have wasted space trying to help someone understand. Makerowner 04:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect citations

This article has a strange form of citations that I can't follow. The citations seem to be based on numbers which have no corresponding link. Wikipedia explains how to correctly cite sources here Wikipedia:Citing sources. It looks like whoever did it was trying to use Wikipedia:Harvard referencing but did it incorrectly. Whoever put those numbers in the aricle should cite the sources correctly.Wikidudeman 15:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your particular dissatisfaction here. A quick look at the article shows that (i) for the most part it uses the author–page system (a well-established version of the author–year–page system), but (ii) it adds a couple of footnotes for sourcing. This combination of (i) and (ii) is odd, and for this reason alone (and perhaps for other reasons too) something needs to be done. But what are these citations that "seem to be based on numbers which have no corresponding link"? I suspect that you're referring to (i); but if so, this is odd, as it's a well-established system. (True, it doesn't agree with WP:REF, but the latter is only a guideline, not a policy; and its recommended "Harvard referencing" is distinctly unhelpful when long papers or books are cited.) -- Hoary 08:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The first part of the first paragraph of the article says "About “80 to 90 percent of American blacks” speak AAVE “at least some of the time” (Smitherman 2". This type of referencing system is totally unhelpful if it doesn't provide any other information. Who is "Smitherman"? Where is his work found? What pages? Etc. If it's a website then reference it as such. If it's a study or journal or book then reference it as such. Otherwise it's meaningless.Wikidudeman 06:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

This criticism of yours is well founded. There's nothing wrong in principle with the method of citation, which is to page 2 of a work by Smitherman, but there's plenty wrong with all these citations of Smitherman's work, because, as you point out, it's not in the list of references. I'll try to go back through the history of the article (a dreary job, what with the number of times it has been edited unnecessarily) to find who mentioned Smitherman, and then write to that person. But I have to attend to a few other chores first. -- Hoary 04:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

All of your sources need to be formatted properly otherwise they are meaningless.Wikidudeman 05:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by the word "your" in "your sources", but that very minor matter aside the sources seem pretty meaningful to me. The problem here is that Smitherman's work doesn't appear among the list of them. -- Hoary 06:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm assuming you're the one who put them there. Did you not?Wikidudeman 10:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No I did not, as the history of the page will show. -- Hoary 15:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation needed?

I removed {{fact}} from the end of:

Despite the clear linguistic evidence, the American public and policymakers remain divided over whether to even recognize AAVE as a legitimate dialect of English, perhaps due to unfounded feelings that AAVE is a degradation of the English (which may, in turn, be an indication of underlying racial determinism).

This is a complex sentence. Which proposition within it needs a reference? -- Hoary 05:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The idea of racial bias. See the discussion above. I'm putting the POV tag that you just took off back in. I'm not sure what earlier discussion you point to in your edit summary but as far as I can tell the most recent discussion about bias does not ignore any earlier discussion on the page. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the last part of this sentence. Does what remains require a reference, and if so, which proposition within it?

I don't think so. I believe the rest of that sentence has been discussed already and we've determined it's fine. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware that a number of editors say that the article is biased. Have they read and understood the article, have they read and understood basic materials about language (e.g. a very short part of Pinker's popular The Language Instinct, as suggested above), and what cogent, intelligent, well-informed points are they making?

Incidentally, I'm not happy with the article either. Here's an example, chosen pretty much at random: For instance, if a child reads "He passed by both of them" as "he pass by bowf uh dem", a teacher must determine whether the child is saying passed or pass, since they are identical in AAVE phonology. (i) Why transcribe in this way, in which for example the "w" in "bowf" exaggerates the oddness? (ii) Why neither mention that the /t/ is commonly dropped by speakers of fast standard English nor say that this is a feature of deliberate AAVE? (iii) How is this a matter of phonology rather than morphology? More broadly, I think an article about a lect of English should primarily discuss the features of that lect, whereas this article burbles on and on about the consternation that AAVE excites among certain non-speakers -- not a non-issue, but a side issue. -- Hoary 07:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe the discussion that I directed to you above demonstrates how much I know. It seems as though it's little pockets of bias like what has been pointed out and not necessarily the entire structure of the article. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Obsolete citations

This article contains numerous examples of Undue weight bias as well as obsolete citations. Citations who's information does not contain the information to the claims they are supposedly citing. For instance the citation done to an article by Kendra Hamilton. Not only is Kendra Hamilton not an expert in the relevant matter but she has done no polls or studies to determine "racism" is the cause of criticism of Ebonics. The only sentence that even hints at that in the article is "Indeed, it may well be one of the last remaining bastions of open bigotry threaded through our culture." which can not be used as a source for the claim in the article "Such appraisals may be due, in part, to racial or ethnic bias.". [[3]]Wikidudeman 10:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The complexity of AAVE words are [sic] limited and you rarely see polysyllabic words used in AAVE. (Wikidudeman, 15 January)

Should I be impressed by the trisyllabic obsolete? In fact I'm confused:

This article contains numerous examples of Undue weight bias as well as obsolete citations. Citations who's [sic] information does not contain the information to [sic] the claims they are supposedly citing.

Information not containing information? Hmm. That little matter aside, does "obsolete" now mean "mendacious" or "misleading" or "vacuous" or something similar? I'd thought it meant something else.

(If I may quote Makerowner [21 January]: Using polysyllabic words does not make you intelligent, or show your intelligence, or even sound better most of the time.)

Hoary 00:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say "information not containing information". I said that the citations to the information you're using them as citations for do not contain the information they are supposedly supposed to be citing. I.E. the link I gave.Wikidudeman 09:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Undue weight and violation of NPOV

This article gives undue weight to the contention that Ebonics should be accepted in everyday speech and is somehow equal in sophistication to proper English. This article contains no references or criticism of Ebonics in any shape or form. This article needs to contain information concerning criticism of use of Ebonics including facts that speakers of Ebonics are generally less educated than speakers of proper english. Some references could be Bill Cosbys "pounkcake speech". It's very shameful that this article does not even mention Cosby's criticism of Ebonics. [[4]] All it seems to contain are a few authors who hold 1 specific viewpoint and the entire article is basically based on those few authors. Notably "Smitherman". Wikidudeman 10:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Undue weight according to which standard? And is Cosby a sociolinguist, sociologist, or linguist? -- Hoary 15:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Undue weight according to wikipedia's standard. You're only presenting one opinion of Ebonics and only a few authors. Bill Cosby's opinion is very relevant because he is a famous African American professional who has publicly criticized Ebonics. Very relevant.Wikidudeman 09:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Cosby quote

I tidied up the Cosby quote a bit in the Controversy section. I think the quote should stay. It's on-topic, relevant and expressive. Cbdorsett 12:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh really? I'll agree that it's expressive, but it's not expressive in the way Cosby probably intended. Let's take a look at it.

I can’t even talk the way these people talk. “Why you ain’t where you is go, ra.”

(i) If we take him literally, he seems to have contradicted himself. Is this the way they talk? Then he's talked the way they talk. Is he not talking as they do? Then we don't have to pay attention to this bizarre example. (ii) I'm not familiar with any lect that's quite what's sampled here.

I don’t know who these people are.

Huh? Come again, Bill?

And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. Then I heard the father talk. This is all in the house. You used to talk a certain way on the corner and you got into the house and switched to English.

If he's saying that the street corner black urban patois of his youth (more or less resembling AAVE of today) wasn't English, he's plain wrong; as is carefully explained in any of a great variety of elementary linguistics texts. Interestingly, though, he's admitted the possibility of code-switching.

Everybody knows it’s important to speak English except these knuckleheads.

Bill, you knucklehead, AAVE is English.

You can’t land a plane with, “Why you ain’t…”

You can and you can't. Tell it to any speaker of L1 American English, and he'll understand it as either "Why you aren't" or "Why you haven't", depending on what follows. I don't claim to be an expert in the language for communication with flight control, but I'd guess that "Why you ain't" is indeed a no-no. I'd guess further that most examples of fully grammatical, fully idiomatic, impeccably standard English are also no-no. That's because conversation at this point is highly formalized, a fact that's irrelevant to which lect one normally speaks.

You can’t be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth.

(i) Calling a lect "crap" is at best a cheap way to get a laugh. (ii) I see no incompatibility between speaking AAVE and being a doctor. As even Cosby admits, people speaking nonstandard lects can and do code-switch. AAVE is just as good a tool for medicine as is any other lect, AAVE is just as good for communication with a fellow speaker of AAVE as (say) Boston English is for communication with a fellow speaker of Boston English; speakers of any lect can and do modify their speech according to interlocutor, situation and purpose.

All in all I think what Crosby is saying is crap, telling us much more about his ignorance than about AAVE. But hey, it's a point of view. Should WP present the "flat Earth" point of view in one section of the article on the Earth? Right now, it's mentioned, but the mention links to a separate article, Flat Earth. Perhaps there could be an analogous link in this article to Irrational criticisms of AAVE. -- Hoary 16:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I would refute you're rebuttal to Cosby's remarks, but there is absolutely no point. You're free to criticize Cosby's remarks all you want. However it's original research and against WP policy. Not presenting them in the article because you don't agree with them is also against WP policy. Bill Cosby is not arguing an academic or linguistic argument here. He's not saying "ebonics" is as linguistically natural as any other dialect. He is stating his professional opinion and it's very relevant to this article.Wikidudeman 09:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Precisely what "original research" do I depend on above, Dude Man? I reject their appearance within the article as they are ill-informed, say nothing about AAVE other than that fairly prominent people make extraordinarily stupid comments about it. Can you explain how his opinion illuminates AAVE? -- Hoary 10:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill Cosby does not count as a verifiable source. He does not back up his statements with data, is not an expert on linguistics or language in general. He's a comedian with an opinion. As such, including his statement does not count as conforming to WP:NPOV. I've removed the "criticism" section because of this and because its tone is completely in violation of NPOV. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill Cosby is not presenting a linguistic argument. He's presenting an argument based on his professional experience from decades as an entertainer and working closely with the African American Community. Not only is the statements quoted of him making verifiable but they also fit the definition of reliable sources. Wikipedia says that sources with 'dubious reliability' should be excluded. However my sources is anything but dubious and the pound cake speech actually happened. Your quibbles with disagreeing with them have absolutely no relevance to their reliability.Wikidudeman 09:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Dude Man, AAVE is a matter of language. Language is in the province of linguistics. There is indeed considerable disagreement within linguistics, but no linguist I can think of trifles with views such as Cosby's, the wrongheadedness of whose little tirade is stunningly obvious to any intelligent adult who (unlike you, it seems) has spent more than thirty minutes reading a relevant linguistics (even pop linguistics) text. Linguists' disagreements with Cosby, crudely summarized in my disagreement with him expressed above, are not mere quibbles: he's not slightly but completely wrong. (Far be it from me to be rude about this much-loved American entertainer, but I'm tempted to say that when it comes to language he's got his head up his ass.) As I don't much care whether Cosby made this speech, I'll accept that he made it; yes, its existence is thus verifiable. It tells us no more about AAVE than what the fantasies of "creationists" tell us about the history of the universe. And that's why I took the trouble to refute what he said, above. (As somebody who seems to enjoy refutals, you may wish to attempt to refute my refutal.) -- Hoary 10:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

If a linguist argues with Cosby then they aren't arguing a linguistic matter but a sociological and peronal matter. Cosby's assertions are mostly sociological and are for the most part 100% true, whether you want to admit it or not. Whether linguists agree with him or not is totally irrelevant. His criticism of Ebonics has a place in this article. I don't need to or have time to 'refute your refutation'. Your refutation is irrelevant and is original research. Some people have criticized Cosby's speech and their criticism exists on the page about the speech. However since Cosby has criticized Ebonics, His criticism will remain on this page.Wikidudeman 13:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Apparantly you're under the impression that being strongheaded is the way to edit articles. You've been reverted by Deeceevoice, myself, and Fordmadoxfraud. In addition, users such as myself, Hoary, and Makerowner have expressed disagreement with your approach to the article. Wikipedia makes articles through consensus.

I'd also like to point out that you are being utterly hypocritical when you say that you are "scientifically-oriented" while negating the importance of linguistics in the discussion of language-related topics. Being scientifically oriented does not mean being an atheist and accepting evolution (yes, I'm looking at your userboxes); it means understanding and accepting the use of the scientific method. Just as astronomy is the scientific study of the stars and planets, linguistics is the scientific study of language. Now, if you're still afraid to pick up a linguistics book, I'll quote from An Introduction to Sociolinguistics: Fourth Edition by Wardhaugh (2002):

There has been widespread misunderstanding in the United States of AAVE, both of its characteristics and of how it is used (see Mufwene et al., 1998). This misunderstanding has had a number of unfortunate consequences. Many educators regard the various distinguishing characteristics of AAVE as deficiencies: black children were deficient in language ability because their language did not have certain features of the standard, and the consequence of that deficiency was cognitive deficiency... In the late 1960s, this view led to certain proposals to teach black children the standard variety of the language... In this view, black children suffered from 'verbal deprivation' or 'had no language,' and it was the duty and responsibility of educators to supply them with one. This view also found support among many African Americans who looked down on AAVE. Lippi-green (1997, p. 200) has observed that 'It cannot be denied that some of the most scornful and negative criticism of AAVE speakers comes from other African Americans.'

... That such children need 'compensatory education' for their lack of linguistic ability is a complete misinterpretation of the facts. (pp. 343-4)

Since this introductory text (which is balanced in its description of controversies and disagreements among linguists) characterizes criticisms of AAVE use as "misunderstanding" then it's not just the dominant view in linguistics. It's the only view. It's quite ambitious that you would like to alter the discourse regarding AAVE to include criticism, but Wikipedia is not the place to do that. And if you're going to do that, I suggest you brush up on the current discourse so you can at least look like you know what you're talking about. I recommend the sources at the bottom of the article as well as English in Black and White by Burling (1973). Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikidudeman, merely being black doesn't automatically render someone an authority on all issues relating to blacks. Don't say Cosby's assertions are "sociological". He's not a sociologist, and has, to my knowledge, performed no research on the subject. He is no more an authoritative voice on the subject than Eddie Murphy. His public criticisms of the subject perhaps have a place in his own article, certainly not here.

Also please treat other contributors with the respect with which you wish to be treated. Wikipedia articles are created and edited by consensus, and it appears at the moment that the consensus is against you on this issue. (If you wish to poll the editors on this page, I'm fine with that.) Stubbornness and edit-warring do not ever lead anywhere good. Ford MF 00:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree somewhat with Fordmadoxfraud [lovely username!]. First, Cosby's comments are, in a sense, sociological, in that they fall in the domain of sociology. The trouble here is that as sociology they're worthless. Further, public criticisms such as those made by Cosby do, I suppose, have a place in WP; they're just as wrongheaded as "Creationism", but like "Creationism" they have a non-negligible impact. To say that they're worth noting is not at all the same as saying they're worth elevating to a status comparable to that of the standard linguistics perception of AAVE. (Neither should every article have a section on "Criticism", as Dude Man seems to think.) I'm also less than enthralled by the WP idea of "consensus"; I find it easy to imagine a situation where a right-headed editor is hugely outnumbered by wrong-headed editors, and as Dude Man earlier seemed to relish making refutations of what he saw as wrong, I've invited him to continue doing so. I'll read any such refutation with interest and am willing to be persuaded that I am wrong; but I note that Dude Man seems to have lost his enthusiasm for refuting that with which he disagrees. -- Hoary 03:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I also disagree with Fordmadoxfraud. I put back the controversy again. Deleting a section entitled "controversy" is not the way to show that there is no controversy. The facts that Cosby is or is not a linguist, is or is not a sociologist, does or does not make a point eloquently, uses or does not use AAVE himself, is or is not a well-known public figure - these are all relevant to his credibility, but not to whether his comments have a bearing on the subject. You guys who keep deleting it - are you suggesting that there is no way to quote public comments on the subject, not even to show that there is controversy? I find it hard to believe that educated people hit writer's block so hard when they see something they personally disagree with. Before you stick me with your branding iron, take a look and see whether I've taken a position with regard to what AAVE is. Language vs. dialect? Should or should not be taught in schools? Language variant or sloppiness? The position I have taken here is that the reading public should be informed. How does Wikipedia do that without telling them? Cbdorsett 05:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I'm all for even-handed criticism, but using a popular entertainer (with no qualifications in, well, pretty much any field except acting) as a critical source smacks of tabloidism to me. Why not call up Chris Tucker, Oprah Winfrey, Danny Glover, see what they have to say about it? Can't we find an actual authority here? Cosby's comments--taken out of context, as a quick scan of the "Poundcake Speech" article shows--would be easily derided as racist if he wasn't himself black. If that doesn't automatically make them POV, it at least makes them highly iffy.

At the very least, including the quote is utterly POV, by the nature of its very informality. My suggestions for a consensus compromise here: 1) leave the Cosby dissent, ditch the rambling quote. 2) Find someone else. Anyone. (Well, anyone who isn't a member of the Aryan Brotherhood or something.) Find some other dudes who have uncomplimentary things to say about AAVE. Because right now, the article reads as a broad consensus of professional sociologists and linguists in one corner versus...one American actor. Not much of a balanced dissent. If that consensus does not actually exist, please, for the love of god, dig up some citations that don't come from a comedian. Ford MF 05:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I think it needs to be moved to the end of the article, not just stuck in willy-nilly in the middle of the grammatical and morphological info. Ford MF 05:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "consensus", FMF? The German language article doesn't have a "criticism" section, even though it's easy to find schoolkids learning German as a foreign language who'll tell you that German is too difficult, sounds horrible, is illogical, stupid, etc etc etc. If you're looking for some other dude to ridicule German, you need look no further than Mark Twain's. Should the article on German thus acknowledge that there is a "controversy" about German? Well, if WP is a resource of received ideas, a kind of distillation of unthinking cliches and stupidity, then certainly it should. Yes, look for some famous dudes who've mouthed this nonsense, quote them and bingo you've got citations! But I was under the impression that WP purported/attempted to be a worthwhile encyclopedia.

It's simple, really. AAVE is a lect. Lects are the province of linguistics. No linguist who's taken seriously claims that any lect is defective; ergo AAVE isn't defective. I believe that there's a consensus on this among thinking, well-informed people; I'm open to persuasion that I'm wrong.

There are disagreements about certain aspects of AAVE just as there are disagreements about certain aspects of standard English. When these aren't too technical or trivial, they should be covered.

There are also disagreements about certain social aspects of AAVE. Intelligent summaries of these may be presented -- but not just semidigested quotations of gobbets from miscellaneous dudes (or anyway dudes who manage to stop short of being flaming racist nutballs).

Or maybe I'm wrong and, say, the article on sodium should point out that it's written not only "Na" but also (according to substantial numbers of schoolkids) "So", and that although chemists say this and that about it, that's only a theory and lots of right-thinking dudes interviewed via random phone calls, etc., claim that it's something you drink in cans, that it gives you heart attacks, that it's something commies put in the water supply (you name it). -- Hoary 08:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sure his comments have bearing on the subject. They have a bearing on the subject just as the comments of a "creation scientist" have a bearing on an article on cosmology. Bluntly, they're worthless. Yes there is a controversy (in the sense that there's a controversy over whether creation of the universe took six days). Yes the reading public should be informed about it somewhere. No, the right way to do that is not to throw in a slab of nonsense from Cosby. Instead, the right way is to summarize the "criticism" in a way that makes the criticism coherent. (And, of course, to present the counterarguments.)

And I also believe that the right place to do all this is not in this article, which should be stripped of its political and pop-linguistic ingredients and link prominently to an article about these, which I'm willing to accept needn't be titled "Irrational criticisms of AAVE".

Language vs. dialect? The former. Should or should not be taught in schools? This is an interesting question (raising other questions, such as "taught" in which sense, and taught to whom), but if it belongs anywhere it belongs in that second article. Language variant or sloppiness? The former, as is simply explained in any of dozens of linguistics texts. (Can you name a reputable linguistics text that says that no, it's sloppiness?) The "sloppiness" allegation can also be summarized and dealt with in that second article.

Or of course Wikipedia can remain studiedly "neutral" about these "controversies". Such treatment of tired old controversies -- controversies that (at least among people who are well educated in the subject) are long dead and buried -- deserves the ridicule it's likely to get. See this for a (non-WP) precedent. -- Hoary 05:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, not opposed to the discussion of controversies. But controversy here seems more like Cosby's than AAVE's. At least, 95% of the media coverage the speech received was on the order of "Bill Cosby Has Lost His Damn Mind", and not a thoughtful discussion of AAVE. Criticisms and counter-arguments should be presented. I just think Cosby's is windbaggy and ridiculous and should be supplemented with, you know, something by a real person. Ford MF 05:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Ƶ§œš¹. Wikipedia is not a democracy. consensus means everyone agreeing on the format of the article not majority vote. Also, The "Scientific method" has absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion. Cosby is not discussing the validity of Ebonics being a dialect as i've stated 3 times already. The only one being 'strong headed' would be you. Quoting random linguistic books and posting totally off topic passages from them won't get you anywhere. ALso your link is not a wikipedia article. [[5]] it leads nowhere. If you mean "No original research" then nothing I put in the article is original. It came from Cosby.Wikidudeman 08:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Ford MF, Cosby has had many years experiences in the black community working closely with African Americans on numerous issues. Cosby's criticism is very relevant.Wikidudeman 08:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill Cosby's quote in this article is as relevant as can be. Currently this article is so POV that it's absurd. This article does nothing put present Ebonics in a positive light and does not provide any alternative viewpoint of Ebonics or criticism of ebonics. Not only does this article (as i've established) use false sources to make incorrect points. But it doesn't even present other viewpoints in a very politically and sociologically charged issue.Wikidudeman 08:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This article does nothing put present Ebonics in a positive light -- Dude Man, it has already become obvious that you have never taken the trouble to look in a linguistics book. It now seems that you have not taken the trouble to read this article. Or if you have, can you explain how for example the description of AAVE phonology puts it in a positive light? To me, it merely presents the facts. and does not provide any alternative viewpoint of Ebonics or criticism of ebonics. Read above, passim. Not only does this article (as i've established) use false sources to make incorrect points. No Dude Man, you haven't. You've merely established that one item is missing from the list of references. -- Hoary 08:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hoary, I'm not interested in the "linguistic" aspect of Ebonics. I'm interested in the sociological aspects of it. I have read this article very clearly. When I say false sources, See my example in "Obsolete citations". This article is very POV. Instead of presenting Ebonics in a neutral light showing both the criticism and support. It ignores criticism and makes up strawmen and tries to refute them. That's not NPOV.Wikidudeman 08:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The REAL POV issue: AAVE origin

Despite the previous debates over POV (whether AAVE is a valid form of communication or not), I think there is another POV problem with the article, though probably not a conscious one. The origin of AAVE is heavily debated in the linguistics community, yet the article only shows the creolist position. Although I am a support of the creole origin theory, I think the theory of AAVE as a preservation of White non-standard Englishes should be represented as well. Makerowner 04:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Location of controversy section.

The controversy section is in a good place. Being right after "in schools" and right before grammatical features. Putting it at the end of the article would be out of context considering the previous part about the controversy in schools. I will likely be adding more to the controversy section soon.Wikidudeman 08:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)