Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mario Kleff (2nd nomination)

Mario Kleff

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Mario Kleff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Increasingly lacking in confidece that this is a notable article. Fails WP:BIO. scope_creep^Talk 13:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Weak Keep Does seem to have decent coverage, although almost entirely from Real Estate Magazine Thailand. His works have received some recognition such as his Ocean Villas winning the 2012 Thailand Property Award for best Boutique Condo which can be used to satisfy point 4 or WP:ARCHITECT, but I'm not sure about the independence of this coverage. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • After additional input regarding the sources below, I'm changing my !vote to delete as the sources are not reliable/independent enough to meet GNG. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Thailand-related deletion discussions. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - The content including reference links to Mod Dam 1199 R, Thailand Dragon and lifestyle was removed and edited just before the page was suggested for deletion. This seems strategic and should be explored. Claiming that Mario Kleff is not an artist is a false claim. He is mentioned as an artist in newspapers and books.[1] Google Books Meow2021 (talk) 14:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC) — Meow2021 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Comment The term an artist was removed as producing several folio's from The Book of Kells isn't evidence that he passes WP:NAUTHOR. The award described above is corporate award and is non-notable. I will review the refences later to determine if he notable architect or designer. scope_creep^Talk 15:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Scope creep: I don't understand. Perhaps there's more to learn about the Wikipedia rules. Thanks for the clarification, however. Meow2021 (talk) 16:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Regards

• Delete Aside from the long-term history (11 years, to be precise) of promotion (and obvious sockpuppeting at the first AfD), I am not convinced by the sources that this person is notable. The article claims seem to be accompanied by very marginal proof of accomplishment. --- Possibly ☎ 17:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Delete - Sourcing (including the inspirepattaya.com piece linked above) all appears to come from outfits that deal in Native advertising, making it impossible to establish that this is really independent coverage. While 'Real Estate Magazine Thailand' was a print publication, judging from their website it was a free 'delivered around town whether you want it or not' book of ads for real estate listings. - MrOllie (talk) 21:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Delete - promotional article and, as per MrOlllie, most of the sources are native advertising, therefore the subject lacks independent coverage. MrsSnoozyTurtle 22:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Delete The weight of evidence seems to indicate he fails WP:BIO and WP:SIGCOV. scope_creep^Talk 23:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Promotional or non-promotional is a matter of interpretation. I created this article on the development of Pattaya. Mr. Mario Kleff appears and stands out. I found his story remarkable, and still do. However, I can agree that this may not be noteworthy at the international level. Yet there are things noteworthy in his life and work that cannot be described as promotional or non-artistic. I hereby disagree. I did research to better understand feedback as I'm a newbie to Wikipedia and still don't understand all of the regulations. The translation of past newspaper articles clearly shows that he studied art and design, and there have been a number of notable exhibitions including at the Gutenberg Museum Mainz and the Diocesan Museum Trier. Maybe as a journalist I should be questioning myself... delete it if you want, but the process of how certain editors have tried this since I wrote about proves something too... Also, in the first deletion says "low-level designer"... I mean, what kind of statement is that? The man likely created much of Pattaya city, including confirmed inventions in building construction. But some Wikipedia editors have created nothing but emotional statements. Prove to me that contributing to Wikipedia can be a waste of time. Regards Meow2021 (talk) 02:13, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment @Meow2021: Do you still have sources on those notable exhibitions? Those would bolster the case for keeping the article. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 12:39, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Answer @Qwaiiplayer: I did intensive research while creating all the articles. The most relevant links to this particular article have been used, I have not included unsuitable sources, e.g. Mainz News: Mario Kleff and Urs Düggelin in the Gutenberg Museum Mainz 1993, Ireland and the Book of Kells, not A Masterpiece Of Expressiveness - The artist Mario Kleff copied the Book of in 1997 Kells in the Episcopal Cathedral and Diocesan Museum Trier, which required an installation of Macromedia Flashplayer to view it in the Firefox browser, Chrome would not work. It is also said that he studied art and design and worked as an art director for a company in Munich, which suggests that he is an artist. It seemed that there were years of artistic work between 1993-1997. Tried to make the most of it. In all honesty, I still don't get the discussion about this article. Regards Meow2021 (talk) 14:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Keep To my knowledge, all this information is factually verifiable and non-contentious. If this is considered insufficiently "notable", then thousands of other Wikipedia entries which are far less notable will need to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:fb1:135:fe32:b809:a040:df5f:d8ef (talk) 03:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Keep - Why do you want to delete Mario Kleff?! This article is about a designer and engineer who lives in Pattaya and seems to be properly prepared. Be sure to keep it. Also, I suggest to bring back the full article to give the reader a better picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.204.221.186 (talk) 05:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - please note that the above two IP accounts have no other edits to date. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 11:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Keep - Controversial figure in the Pattaya area. Loads of native advertising, non-RS sources etc that swamps any Google search. However, if you search hard enough, you can find enough to satisfy GNG from reporting of opposition to his schemes. I've only looked in English language sources, there may be more in Thai sources. To clarify a statement above, the sockpuppetry etc took place 11 years ago, rather than it has been going on continuously for over 11 years (unless there is something I don't know about). --John B123 (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@John B123: You seem to have a habit of posting comments like these without providing the actual sources, or evidence to the contary. The normal course would be to post WP:THREE reference to prove its notable. Can you do that, please? scope_creep^Talk 14:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Scope creep: That seems extremely biased. Your opinion above that he fails he fails WP:BIO and WP:SIGCOV is accepted, but my opinion he does is challenged. That is one of the reasons I try and avoid AfDs. --John B123 (talk) 15:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@John B123: You don't seem to be. That is not biased. You have made a statement without evidence. That is the normal process in WP:AFD for more than a decade now. Provide WP:THREE refs to prove the article is notable, and then the Afd can come to a stop, immediately. Saying they're is evidence there, there without showing the evidence is just that, a statement, with no validity. scope_creep^Talk 15:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Scope creep:, @John B123:That's exactly what I can't understand on Wikipedia! Editors should discuss and help each other rather than competing for rankings. I believe the references given are strong enough for this article. I only read from claims that these references are promotional or even paid advertisements in local magazines. Where is the evidence of that? Why is so little discussion about the article and content, the facts written down? This I want to know. Regards Meow2021 (talk) 15:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) a statement, with no validity, no more than your statement above hence my comment. Whilst on the subject of AfD procedures, the nomination of the article is taken as read that the nominator !votes delete, so doesn't add a separate !vote within the discussion. However, I've got far more constructive things to do with my time than argue over this so have struck through my "statement". --John B123 (talk) 15:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@John B123: I'm sorry, You didn't need to do that. I thought it would be a timesaver. I'll search for three references and do a review of the current refernces. scope_creep^Talk 15:54, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Some of his projects have been covered by news website The Thaiger.[2][3] The site falls a bit more on the tabloidish side of the news spectrum, but the coverage isn't quite positive so it's presumably not sponsored and should count as independent. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Delete This is promotional. I reviewed all the sources ever used in the article. There is some very minimal coverage in independent, reliable sources, but mostly, it's over-the top promotion. International star architect... I don't think so. They have better coverage than this:
• Comment: @Vexations: Your feedback on this matter appears emotional and misleading. Some links were not included in the "Mario Kleff" article others mentioned as "dead links", which is a dismal judgment. To refer to a heading without further reference to its content is like judging a book by its cover. You have made a personal comment, it is a non-neutral editorial style.
  • [4] tearsheet from , note that merits.partners is run by Kleff

This link was used in the first revision and then replaced on the advice of the WP editors

• • [5] tearsheet from Lifestyle, a supplement to Pattaya People Weekly (http://pattayapeople.com/)

Link was used in the first revision and then deleted on the advice of the WP editors

• • dead link
  • dead link
  • dead link
  • dead link
  • dead link
  • [6] looks like a press release, but source is used in 23 other articles
  • [7] dead link only used in articles about Kleff or related topics (Cellular beam, Wongamat Tower and Mario Kleff)
  • [8] dead link
  • [9] dead link
  • [10] dead link
  • [11] dead link
  • [12] dead link
  • [13] dead link
  • [14] dead link
  • [15] dead link
  • [16] dead link
  • [17] dead link
  • [18] dead link
  • [19] dead link
  • [20] dead link

All links used in the article are functional and retrieved using Wayback Machine

• • [21] seems OK, isbn 9783790201642
  • [22] PediaPress is definitely not a reliable source

I didn't know that, it showed up in Google Book search. However, it is confirmed in other books or articles

• • [23] dead link
  • [24] two sentences mention Kleff only briefly, but the author refers to him as "the famous architect Mario Kleff."

The journalist seems to be writing about facts in an editorial style, considering the buildings are real and so the story

• • [25] self-published: Source: Mario Kleff

At the end of the photo article is Source Mario Kleff. However, it presents a story that appears to be true

• • [26] half a sentence: "and Mario Kleff – a renowned German architect"

Similar editorial style to the one mentioned above - right given the buildings and the information

• • [27] tearsheet from ReM, ([28], formerly realestatemagazinethailand.com I think) refers to him as "international star architect Mario Kleff"
  • [29] Not a published source

Published source or not - after research, the story appears to have been discussed in Thai forums and confirmed as valid by Pattaya City Hall, there is also a link *[30] to it published by Mario Kleff in 2010. A corresponding mention can also be found in Thai Taiger * [31]

• • [32] doesn't mention Kleff, refers to "foreign husband, nationality unconfirmed"

Confirmed. Mario, a 52 year old Thai citizen, originally from Germany, is somewhat of a local celebrity. He was in the public eye back in 2019 after talks on whether his leopards – Fasai and Typhoon – were legal to own as house pets. It was later determined by a Thai court that the ownership is completely legal. * [33]

• • [34] provides some coverage, appears independent
  • [35] doesn't mention Kleff, source is 77kaoded, links to * [36] dead link
  • [37] self-published

Can you please prove when and in what content this link is used?!

• • some coverage in the Aachener Zeitung
  • [38] author is a "contributor"

Do you have any evidence to support such claims? The article was created on February 17, 2016 by Florin Tibu

• • [39] doesn't mention Kleff.

No it does not. It is a supplement to show the economic crisis in Thailand. Perfectly accepted in WP

• • [40] doesn't mention Kleff.

The real estate company mentioned is owned by Mario Kleff, aka Thiti Teerachin, aka Bhumeth Issarasilp (information obtained from Thai government), his wife is apparently Nittaya Wongsin. Given that the media over time mentioned both companies, Nittaya Wongsin and Mario Kleff, in connection with the Leopards

• • [41] only says: Der Künstler und Designer Mario Kleff kopiert das "Book of Kells". (English: The artist and designer Mario Kleff copies the "Book of Kells".)

If you research carefully you will eventually find the entire article (Macromedia Flash Player required); or see a copy on Mario Kleff's website which is an unappreciated source that I haven't put for reference on the advise of WP editors. However, it gives much of information about Mario Kleff's life and work[42]

• • [43] doesn't mention Kleff.

I contacted the engine manufacturer (a common practice in journalism) to confirm it was the engine and motorcycle built for MK after reading some information on YouTube and social media

• • [44] Single sentence: "Der Künstler Mario Kleff hat das Buch als Faksimile kopiert und somit der Öffentlichkeit zugänglich gemacht." (English:The artist Mario Kleff has copied the book as a facsimile and thus made it accessible to the public.)

As above - briefly but confirming

• • [45] youtube is not a reliable source
  • [46] youtube is not a reliable source

Youtube serves as a supplement to the articles, not as a strict reference and as far as I understand it is an accepted practice in WP

Vexations (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I accept the difficulties in this article, it was no less difficult to keep track of and get all the facts and information. However, for me, there is no doubt about the validity of Mario Kleff and his work. As mentioned earlier, I am in no way affiliated or related to the subject, but I am a journalist who works in Pattaya and I know what is in town. The story is rather interesting and I've been trying to sort things out. Please do what you are supposed to, but do it without emotion. Regards Meow2021 (talk) 03:26, 11 August 2021 (UTC)