Talk:Wi Spa controversy

Unsourced

It should be noted that this statement is unsourced and unsubstantiated: "On June 24, 2021, a cisgender woman claimed that..". We have no evidence at all to suggest this person's gender identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.10.166.120 (talk) 14:14, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

On the contrary, the sources cited show the woman claiming trans individuals don't exist. As such, she must be cisgender by definition. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 02:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

It certainly would create quite a strange conundrum if someone denied their own existence (something very Adamsian about it ). We've definitely got RS for cisgender if it's in any dispute though (e.g. The Hill). —0xf₈e₈ 💿 (talk) 18:16, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Appreciated, 0xF8E8 ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 01:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

This response requires the woman to believe/subscribe to the theory that people have a gender identity that exists separately from sex in order to be "cis" or "trans" of it. GenericUsername2702 (talk) 17:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

This assumes the person making the complaint agrees that gender is separate from sex, or if it exists at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoKoCorvid (talk • contribs) 18:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Antifa

Pluma, wanting your feedback regarding the sourcing and wording changes. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Allegations of hoax section needs updating

See https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident, which states that a <trans woman>* has been charged with indecent exposure regarding this incident. So it wasn't a hoax after all. 213.205.242.252 (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The New York Post is considered a generally unreliable source for factual reporting. See WP:NYPOST. DanCherek (talk) 18:07, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed they are a low-quality source. However, I will note in the interest of fairness that the LA Times article specifically references the NY Post interview of the alleged individual. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:43, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

* Original terminology is considered insulting and degrading by trans individuals, and has been redacted under WP:RPA. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:47, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The LA Times has covered this news story now. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-02/indecent-exposure-charges-filed-trans-woman-spa "Indecent exposure charges filed against trans woman over L.A. spa incident" — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoKoCorvid (talk • contribs) 18:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Article says that the LAPD are going to make a statement soon. I am waiting to hear said statement for official information before including this information, so we don't run into a WP:BLPCRIME issue. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:49, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

This article conflates gender critical feminists with the far right

The article is worded such that a reader unfamiliar with gender critical feminism may unduly associate it with the far right. When actually, most GC feminists, particularly radical feminists, view such issues from a left-wing perspective.

I would suggest the article be reworded to not create this impression, and also to reflect the fact that GC feminists generally consider the problem of males in women's spaces in terms of safeguarding and women's rights, whereas the far right do not.

213.205.242.15 (talk) 15:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

This comparison and relation is what the reliable sources say. After all, we here on-wiki do our best to only summarize the cited works and not list our own anecdotes. If people in the trans-exclusive/GC camp wish to not be compared, I can only suggest they adjust their behavior in such that they don't show up side-by-side in reliable sources. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 16:18, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Isn't Wikipedia supposed to express a NPOV, rather than echoing the editorial biases of its sources? Suggesting that GC feminists "adjust their behaviour" in some undefined way, as a prequisite to Wikipedia articles such as this giving them a fair representation, seems unreasonable to me. 213.205.242.15 (talk) 16:47, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

This isn't a debate. NPOV is very important. However, rest assured, as the primary writer of this article (at current time) I've spent a lot of time to try to keep things neutral. Neutrality means we present facts as facts reported in the reliable sources. We also balance whether or not certain sourced facts/statements are WP:DUE or not. However, I cannot in good faith alter what is factually reported anymore than it already has been (to turn into wiki-voice). Doing so would promote a WP:FALSEBALANCE. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 16:55, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not a NPOV to conflate gender critical feminism with the far right, they come from completely different ideological standpoints. I know it's a common smear tactic to make it sound like they are one and the same, as we see in much of the reporting on this incident, but I thought Wikipedia would be above such things. Anyway, it seems unlikely you will change your mind on this, so I will leave this discussion now, with disappointment. 213.205.242.15 (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I am always open to more input and opinions from other editors. However I'm curious how you view NPOV. From my understanding of it, it is that we as editors act as neutral arbiters (as best we can) to include reliable sources, weigh conflicting viewpoints, and try to not act as agents of our own biases. The lead section is summary of the body section, which is why it is summarized in the way it is currently. What way would you rewrite it, if you did? ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 17:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

IP, if you want actionable change, I suggest you write what sentences you have a problem with alongside the changes that should be applied to them, as well as other reliable sources that should be introduced. Right now, your complaint appears to be towards how WP:RS have been reporting the events, which, as Gwennie explained, we can't do much about. Isabelle ^🔔 17:38, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Also wanted to say, this article isn't the place for a lengthy discourse trying to explain niche issues about certain perspectives, such as, for example, between what is and is not feminism (as the political alignment of trans-exclusive/GC folks are debated). We already have Feminist views on transgender topics for that, with other nuances about the common acronym being had at TERF. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 16:31, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Characterization

The following is portrayal of how our RS cited aligns the right-wing and trans-exclusive feminists in various ways. Feel free to add excerpts from potential sources for the article to compare or contrast. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 20:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC) ​​​​​

• LA Blade July 7th "The video quickly made the rounds in far right, and Trans-Exclusionary Feminist (TERF) sites. Anti-trans “feminist” websites like Mumsnet, Ovarit, and Spinster were sharing content by far right provocateurs known for disinformation, like Ian Miles Cheong, by June 27th."
• The Guardian July 28th "…clear evidence of the links between anti-trans and far-right movements, including QAnon conspiracy theorists…" Also, a paragraph discussing Fox News, following paragraph discussing trans-exclusive feminists.
  • Follow up story The Guardian Sept 2 doesn't even separate the two. It refers to "members of the far-right Proud Boys group marched alongside women who held “protect female spaces” signs" after saying the incident video "went viral on rightwing forums, far-right sites and Fox News". (Is this source deliberately including trans-exclusive feminists under the right-wing umbrella? Needs considered.)
• On The Media - Zadrosny/Beckett/Serano Aug 6th Lois Beckett (author of Guardian article) describing how Precious Child saw comments flood in about and to her after the false allegation "She said, first, she saw comments from sort of militia group types in the US, then from broader pro-Trump people in the US, then she said that like transphobic feminists in Germany and in Australia were weighing in."
• Media Matters July 12th Cites this excerpt from The Christian Post "The footage is a real-life example of the concerns women’s rights campaigners across the political spectrum and radical feminists have raised in recent years. They argue that it is impossible to simultaneously ensure legal protections on the basis of sex and gender identity."

Comments

Was pinged. Frankly, I am very much inclined to treat with less weight those outlets which have shown themselves to be less reliable on this matter by pushing a "right-wing hoax" narrative when the facts show that later, police did end up arresting someone in connection with this incident who had a record (keep in mind that in California, merely being a trans woman in the women's changing room is not illegal). Even so, the sources listed here do not justify conflating distinct ideological groups. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

You are free to start a new thread on WP:RSN. The sources don't say they are the same, only that they are connected, which seems fair. Isabelle ^🔔 20:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not a matter worth reconsidering The Guardian as a whole, so not worth RSN. All the time on Wikipedia, if a source is showing itself to be contextually unreliable in comparison to other sources, we take that into consideration. And the only one of the four above that links the two more than our current article is The Guardian. We are not going to cherry pick their view; it's WP:UNDUE. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@Crossroads: I don't think it's unreasonable for journalists, prior to the publication of charges, having suspicions of a possible hoax, especially when police aren't on board ("While LA police originally said that no crime had been reported at Wi Spa…" from follow-up Guardian article.) So when the police are reporting no crime and you have the contentious nature of the subject, it's likely to be journalistic to consider something unlikely until proven true. This whole situation changed since the LAPD reversed their position. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 01:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I am fine with Crossroads’ recent change. Are we discussing this because someone prefers the old language? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Current wording seems fine to me, too. Isabelle ^🔔 21:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Discussing because contentious and always good to actually look at what the sources say before we decide on wording as well. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 00:56, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Suggested edit

We should edit "unknown individual with a penis" to male suspect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.79.89 (talk) 22:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Not every person with a penis identifies as male, so it's better to leave as "unknown individual". Isabelle ^🔔 14:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Especially considering the reports the individual in question initially suggested trans possibility, it's best to just keep it as it is. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 19:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Objectively speaking, they're male, regardless of self identity. It is clarified that the individual may identify as a trans woman so there is no confusion caused by using a more efficient sentence structure GenericUsername2702 (talk) 11:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

TERF is considered by some to be derogatory

It doesn't matter if a source is using it; some whom the term is directed at consider it derogatory, nd we shouldn't be using it as a description. If a source says "a Karen" claimed that..." we wouldn't describe the person in question as a "Karen,"(just to give one example of a derogatory term, there are many others). Likewise for TERF--since it's a contested term, it should only reused in that context, not as an "objective" description. Boodlesthecat (talk)

I agree that we shouldn't use 'TERF', even in parentheses. We should also not use 'gender critical', a similarly contested term. The mostly stable version used 'trans-excluding feminist', which seems to be a neutral, accurate description if we drop the '(TERF)' Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with dropping the term TERF if the wording remains the same, using "trans-excluding feminist", even though TERF is nothing more than its acronym, as detailed in its article (to which Trans-exclusionary feminism redirects to). Changing the wikilink to Feminist views on transgender topics, though, goes against MOS:EGG. Isabelle ^🔔 20:17, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

No, TERF is not "nothing more than an acronym," it's (to repeat again) often consider a slur, and often appears online or is heard in the street in contexts such as "Death to TERFs." The Wiki entry says clearly that it's use as a slur is hotly debated, which means it's real. So why err on the side of using a term many consider a slur, other than to subtly push an agenda? I would appreciate if someone can make a sensible edit that removes the offensive "TERF" descriptor so I don't get into/be accused of being in an edit war. Not only is TERF used derogatorily, it tends to be used in a lazy snd Monty Pythonist silly manner to describe anyone considered transphobic, often hurled at people who could hardly be defined as "radical" and/or "feminist", often by people who barely have a clue what they are talking about and know nothing about feminist history. Not unlike anyone who criticizes Palestinians being called a "Zionist", even if that person is an antisemitic Israel hater. Boodlesthecat (talk)

@Boodlesthecat: A Zionist is someone who supports the establishment of a Jewish state; an "antisemitic Israel-hater" would likely be an Anti-zionist. ––FormalDude talk 22:00, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: yes of course, and, eg, Iranian government propagandists often attack anyone who criticizes them as "Zionists", even if their critics are right wing antisemites. See, terms being used without regard for their actual meaning. Like TERF being used to attack people who don't even know what radical feminists means half the time. Get it? Boodlesthecat (talk)

 Administrator note: I'm not going to wade in here too much, lest I become involved and unable to apply discretionary sanctions (for which you are now all aware). Racists tend to find being called racist quite derogatory, as do trans-exclusionary radical feminists. ~TNT (she/they • talk) 22:22, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@TNT:, that's a blatant false equivalency which equates, on some moral scale you are employing, some women who wish to have spaces, eg, changing rooms, where they don't have to be confronted by penises, with racists. This is more illustrative of your own dogma here, which is far from universally accepted,, which makes me question your appropriateness of your being an admin for this page. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 23:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) @Boodlesthecat: I obviously disagree which dogma are you trying to accuse me of, and is my supposed dogma any more or less valid than yours? For what its worth, I've heard this one ("some women who wish to have spaces, eg, changing rooms, where they don't have to be confronted by penises") before. You are clearly not attempting to challenge the use of TERF on any basis other than your own point of view. ~TNT (she/they • talk) 23:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

By equating the term "TERFs" with being called a racist, and expressing below your point of view that the word TERF is definitely okay despite the fact that there is no consensus in academic discourse if it is a slur, you are expressing a point of view on what to do with the article and clearly are already WP:INVOLVED. Such statements should not have "administrator's note" appended to them as though they carry special authority. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

What sentence are you objecting to? The video had increasingly circulated online on right-wing and far-right sites, as well as trans-excluding feminist (TERF) spaces. ? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: As the editor who can claim most of the authorship for this page, I want to deliberately say that even since creating this article, this quandary has been on my mind. While some of our RS have used either "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" or "TERF" in the text thereof, I specifically chose to specifically write it as trans-excluding feminist (TERF) spaces. However what would be more constructive is, instead of acting in a very pugnacious manner, such as I regrettably see from Boodles, it would be better for those who disagree with the current wording to propose alternate wording. However, in an expression of good faith, I wish to do that labor for all those who wish it changed:

1. trans-excluding feminists (a.k.a. gender-critical or TERFs) this option allows us to be more verbose in body, to let readers know, who perhaps are reading material like this for the first time, the terminology refers to the same ideological grouping
2. The claim attracted significant attention from trans-excluding feminists (a.k.a. gender-critical feminists or TERFs) online this option allows us to be more verbose in lead and then use the preferred terminology of trans-excluding feminists elsewhere in body

Please let me know if there are more options you are wishing to explore for wording! ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:29, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I support either of Gwennie-nyan's proposals. My only question is: why are we omitting "radical"? We are linking to TERF which says trans-exclusionary radical feminist. ––FormalDude talk 00:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I put in alternate wording, removing "TERF" with the clear explanation, including in the talk page, that many consider it derogatory, and the Wiki entry itself admits that it's contested. My was reverted. Not sure why editors insist on using a loaded, and to many, a derogatory term, (not to mention it being a term which is mindlessly tossed around with seemingly no understanding what the 4 words mean) other than to push a particular dogmatic POV. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Boodlesthecat: The only "dogmatic POV" I see being pushed at the moment is yours - do you consider yourself a trans-exclusionary radical feminist per chance, or is that a slur? ~TNT (she/they • talk) 00:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Nope, I don't. Do you consider me one? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:52, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, so you're just trying to make a point? Please arrive at it for all our sakes a TERF is a TERF the same way a SPADE is a SPADE, the only difference being a spade still has some relevance in the 21st century ~TNT (she/they • talk) 00:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

What part of "we shouldn't use a term many consider to be derogatory" (which I think some thers here agree with) isn't clear? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 01:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Boodlesthecat: Do you object to the term TERF in general or just its usage here? As I've said in the edit summary, TERF is used by the reliable sources to define the kind of group that was helping spread the alleged hoax. TERF, or "trans-exclusionary radical feminist", has negative connotations, yes, but so do many other terms we use in articles, such as alt-right, neo-nazi and so on. If TERF was not sourced, then yes it should've been removed, but it's cited by at least three different sources. Personally, I support keeping the text as is, with the possibility of removing the acronym but retaining "trans-exclusionary radical feminist", anything else would be whitewashing the article. Isabelle ^🔔 01:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Isabelle I object to it being used to describe groups or people in an encyclopedia article, since many consider it a slur when being used as a descriptor. And these are hardly completely reliable sources, since they actually were key in perpetrating the apparently false narrative that the claims of the women at Wi Spa were a hoax (which they will never admit to). I don't think you will ever see the NYT or WaPo use "TERF" as a description of a group or individual, do you? And, whether you agree with them or not, comparing women (often lesbian women) who advocate for spaces without penises with noxious murderous fascists is both defamatory and silly. I see this article as also subtly trying to discredit the women who made the complaints and subtly perpetrate the hoax angle, by using the TERF slur, by making a point that the main complainant was "Christian" (wink wink, we know how hateful they can be!), pointing out that they are "cis" (to subtly set up an opposition to transwomen). That's my concern. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 02:28, September 7, 2021 (UTC)

@Boodlesthecat: From my understanding, it's mostly TERFs who consider the word to be a slur, which would make it a fringe point of view. The used sources equate "gender critical" to "trans-exclusionary radical feminists", and the latter, and especially the acronym, is the most common descriptor for this subgroup, so it would be a disservice to our readers to change it. I don't see why it matters that some of these feminists are not heterossexual, or what words the NYT or WaPo would use. Your other points appear to be casting aspersions on the major contributors of the article. Try to assume good faith. Also, I will repeat myself and tell you to go to WP:RSN if you believe the current sources should not be used in this article. Isabelle ^🔔 04:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

So it's OK to use a slur directed at a group of people who find it offensive, because it's mainly the people it's directed at who find it offensive. By your logic, we would never have gotten the n word proscribed, not to mention "tranny" and countless other offensive terms. Your logic is scary. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 05:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Even though I am a white person, I still find the n-word grossly offensive. Even though I am a cisgender person, I still find the word "tranny" grossly offensive. I think most non-black and non-trans people would still find these slurs deeply offensive, because they are slurs.

However, the majority of people who are not TERFs generally do not find the term "TERF" to be offensive. That is because it is not a slur. If it were a slur, we'd all be agreeing with you. I'll bring up the previous point that's been made that the majority of people who are not racists generally do not find "racist" to be an offensive term. So clearly a group of people being offended is not the only qualifier for something to be offensive (other people have to be offended too). ––FormalDude talk 08:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude You're being a bit ahistorical. There was a time, I remember well, being elderly, when countless racist, sexist, homophobic slurs were not considered offensive except largely by those the slurs were directed at. So your argument doesn't seem terribly sound. And while there no doubt there are haters in the so-called "TERF" camp, to hurl this purported slur at, eg, an apolitical biological woman who simply has an abhorrence to be naked and vulnerable in the presence of penises in spaces which she expects not to be seems simply like bullying.Boodlesthecat ^Meow?

While people of color and non-cisgender folks don't choose to be who they are, TERFs do, which is the main difference between these groups. But I'm done discussing this with you, as your refusal to spell out one word, while doing so for the other shows you are the kind of person who won't budge on this issue. Isabelle ^🔔 12:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Isabelle Really? A lesbian who finds the presence of a penis in what had been a space where penises were not allowed disturbing, if not traumatic "chooses" to be bothered? And as such, should be labeled with a slur by those who object to her feelings? Hmmm. Boodlesthecat ^Meow?

• I like Gwennie-nyan's proposals with the a.k.a.'s. In answer to FormalDude's "why are we omitting "radical"?" - that would basically just be spelling out TERF in the article text, which is taking a very particular POV which - aside from being bad in itself - can affect reception by readers, and also is saying that these specifically are radical feminists. TERF is clear that not everyone called that is a radical feminist. Let's just go with her proposal(s) because the a.k.a. is a good way of describing 'here's what people call this group'. And I'm seeing way too much commentary on editors rather than edits above, as well as some forum-like WP:SOAPBOXing. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:24, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  We are literally spelling out "TERF" in the article text already with Gwennie-nyan's proposals that both include the word "TERF" in parenthesis as a.k.a.'s. If we include the acronym, I don't see why we should not also include what it stands for in its entirety. I personally agree they're not all radical feminists, but that is what part of the acronym stands for.

  I won't press it any further though because I don't really care one way or the other. ––FormalDude talk 07:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Thank you for staying on topic and evaluating what I proposed. I do agree we're having some serious WP:SOAPBOX and WP:FORUM issues. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 10:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree that "TERF" is often used as a slur - the feminist online space Ovarit has many, many examples documented here by its users: https://ovarit.com/o/TerfIsASlur. Personally I would advocate the use of "gender critical" instead, not only because it's not a slur, but also it covers feminist women who aren't strictly radical feminists, as well as their ideological allies (e.g. gay men who are concerned about their homosexuality being redefined as same-gender attracted, rather than same-sex). Hope this helps. LayersOfEggs (talk) 08:13, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, we're not using Ovarit for a couple reasons:

1. the site is specifically noted by RS as having spread the topic of this page
2. Ovarit was literally created after r/GenderCritical was banned from Reddit because of the behavior of its members
3. Like Reddit, Ovarit is mostly an aggregation of self-published sources at best
4. we have actual academic and more professional discourse about the discussion of the term as a possible slur on the TERF page

So yeah, we're not going to be using it. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 10:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)