Wikipedia:Featured article review/Caesar cipher/archive2

Caesar cipher

Caesar cipher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Caesar cipher

• Featured article review/Caesar cipher
• Featured article review/Caesar cipher/archive1
• Featured article review/Caesar cipher/archive2

Notified: Matt Crypto, Hut 8.5, WikiProject Cryptography, WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, 2022-09-01

I am nominating this featured article for review because, as pointed out by Hog Farm in September, this article has large amounts of uncited text and a history section whose prose is disconnected. I agree with this assessment, and I would add that I think the lede needs to be expanded, its usage needs to be updated (as the last entry is from 2011) and a search for additional sources might be warranted. Z1720 (talk) 00:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• I'm not going to try to address this, as I have basically no chance of doing so, but the idea that the usage section needs updating is laughable. The Caesar cipher is incredibly insecure and can be broken easily by small children. Caesar used it against people who largely couldn't read. Anybody who uses it to protect any information in the present day would have to be extremely stupid. While the cipher is often used as an introductory example in cryptography works, I doubt the kind of sourcing coverage expected actually exists. Hut 8.5 07:56, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the Caesar cipher has no practical usage, so there would be no relevant update to the usage section unless it was to include examples of inept conspirators/criminals using it. Simply doing an exhaustion with 26 attempts at trial and error will knock it down Bumbubookworm (talk) 12:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Also agree. I'm not really sure what this FAR is about... there are a few unrerefernced statements, but I doubt it will be too hard to find verifications for those. Otherwise it seems like a decent well-written summary of the topic. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 12:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, there's no expectation for updating because this isn't used anymore, but this if probably one of the least organized FA's I've ever read. We go from the Caesars to Al-Kindi to the mezuzah to personal ads to WWI Russia etc. I don't think something that's basically just a list of examples would ever pass FAC today. Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's realistically possible to write a History section for this topic which doesn't jump around like that because that's all you've got to work with. The Caesar cipher doesn't have a continuous record of usage to describe, just isolated examples of where somebody used it for something. Hut 8.5 16:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

One of the concerns when I was nominating the article was the lack of sources used. Bauer is listed in the bibliography but is not cited. Should it be added in? I have also found some other sources through WP:LIBRARY whose inclusion I think should be considered, especially because of the short length of the article:

• Vt hkskdkxt: Early Medieval Cryptography, Textual Errors, and Scribal Agency (JSTOR)
• The Mathematics of Secrets Cryptography from Caesar Ciphers to Digital Encryption (Google Books)
• Historical Ciphers and Ancient Languages (JSTOR)

Hopefully this will help expand the article. Z1720 (talk) 01:41, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

First of all the mere fact the article is short is not necessarily a problem. It is a small topic. The features article criteria only say that the article needs to be comprehensive (neglects no major facts or details). I don't see any argument here that the article neglects major facts or details. Of the sources you've linked to:

• "Historical Ciphers and Ancient Languages" is a brief overview of this history of cryptography which mentions the Caesar cipher as an example. It does not contain anything which is not in the article.
• "Early Medieval Cryptography, Textual Errors, and Scribal Agency" is about several early medieval manuscripts which use cryptograms, and it mentions that some of them are encrypted with the Caesar cipher. For details on this readers are referred to David Kahn's The Codebreakers, one of the main sources used for the Wikipedia article. While we could mention these manuscripts as another example in this History section it's not something which could be used to deliver a substantial expansion of the article. The source is largely interested in fine textual details of the manuscripts and mistakes made by the scribes, which are well out of scope here.
• "The Mathematics of Secrets Cryptography from Caesar Ciphers to Digital Encryption", to judge from the Google Books preview, uses the Caesar cipher as an introductory example. Books on cryptography often use it for this purpose because it's easy to understand and because it can be used to illustrate important concepts. I'm sure you could find quite a few other similar books which use it as an introductory example like this, but they don't add anything to what's in the article.

Hut 8.5 12:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

@Hut 8.5: Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I agree that a short article is not necessarily a problem. When an article is short, I try to find additional sources to ensure that the article meets the 1b comprehensive requirements of WP:FA? If none are found, then I can be confident that the article is comprehensive. However, I found some sources after a quick search, outlined above, and there were some aspects that could be added to the article (like the Medieval information). Since it is a shorter article, adding information is not as much of a concern and I think should be considered. I also think a search for more sources should be made to see if there is information to add to the History section that could prevent the large gaps that currently exist in that section. Z1720 (talk) 18:14, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It may well be possible to come up with some more obscure examples of usage, like that one medieval manuscript, but that doesn't mean the article fails 1b, which says only that the article should neglect no major facts or details (not neglect any facts or details). I don't think the article is missing any major facts or details. Adding more isolated/obscure examples to the History section would also make it more disconnected, which is something else you've objected to. If you don't think the article meets 1b then I would expect you to at the very least point to aspects which should be covered in greater detail. Instead it looks like you Googled it and posted whatever came up. Hut 8.5 18:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Close without FARC: the initial nomination raised problems of sourcing and comprehensiveness; I can see no remnant of these problems in the article. Perhaps I would recommend one or two more sentences in the lead, but I do not believe that to be any more than a personal preference. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:25, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Z1720: - Any thoughts on this? I personally don't know that this would pass FAC today in its current shape, but it looks like at least parts of my notice from way-back-when were in error. Hog Farm _Talk 14:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Hog Farm. I still have concerns about this article. After reading the discussion above, this article might not have enough sources about its historical use for this to be able to remain a featured article at this time. I will respect the decision of the co-ords, whether it is kept or delisted, but I think the co-ords will need to make a judgment call soon unless new voices comment here. I will note that, if this is kept, it is very likely to appear as TFA soon (as math articles are less common at TFA, so I would want to nominate an article like this) so if editors do not think it is of good enough quality to be TFA, they should comment below. Z1720 (talk) 16:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Needs attribution of opinions and citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Sandy that there's some points needing attribution/citation, so Move to FARC (which does not preclude additional work), as there hasn't been any work towards those points. Hog Farm _Talk 15:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Will try to look back in soon, but it'll probably be next week. Hog Farm _Talk 17:18, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

• I have rewritten the tagged sections with citations. The statement which was tagged as needing attribution of an opinion was that the phrase "attackatonce" is recognisable as English text, this is obvious to every reader and doesn't need attribution. Hut 8.5 09:53, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

• "This may be a holdover from an earlier time when Jewish people were not allowed to have mezuzot." (article text) vs. source "a carryover from the time when Jewish people were not allowed to have mezuzahs". Probably close paraphrasing issues
• "which Orthodox belief holds keeps the forces of evil in check" - I'm not Jewish, and had trouble fully comprehending all of the religious terminology in the source, but it seems to be attributing this belief to the teachings of Kabbalah, which are a subject of dispute in Orthodox Judaism I think?
• " Kahn, David (1967). The Codebreakers. ISBN 978-0-684-83130-5." - page number needed
• "Chris Savarese and Brian Hart, The Caesar Cipher, 1999" - publisher needed

Once these are closed, I think the article is probably decent enough to close the FAR as kept. I don't think this is our best featured article, but I'm not seeing anything that warrants delisting now that the unsourced content and attribution issues have been resolved. Hog Farm _Talk 02:01, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I've fixed the last two points. I'm also not Jewish and I don't know anything about that aspect of the topic so I'd have to do some research before dealing with that. The source website represents a particular branch of Hasidic Judaism though and might not be applicable more generally, maybe we can find a better one. Hut 8.5 08:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I've rewritten the Hebrew paragraph with different sources. I couldn't find that many sources which discuss this particular topic, and there's almost nothing which discusses it in much detail, so I suspect it isn't very important. For example Kahn devotes several pages to a summary of Hebrew ciphers used in religious texts but he doesn't mention this one at all. The source which the article previously used is the only one I could find which discussed the wider significance or meaning of this text, and since it only appears to relate to one particular branch of Judaism and isn't exactly clear I think it's best if we don't use it. Hut 8.5 18:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• Close without FARC, I guess - nothing glaring, but I wouldn't recommend running this as TFA. Hog Farm _Talk 18:29, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

  Close w/o FARC along the same lines as Hog Farm (it's good enough, but wouldn't be thrilled to see it on the main page). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: I philosophically disagree with a "Keep, but don't want it to appear as TFA" argument as I believe one of the roles of FAC/FAR is to identify articles for TFA. However, consensus on Wikipedia does not mean that everyone has to agree; I will not be bothered if this FAR closes as keep over my disagreement, especially since this FAR has been open for a long time already. Z1720 (talk) 13:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think "I don't want it to appear TFA" is out of line with WP:WIAFA. If I had been able to speak plainly while I was FAC delegate, I would have said I don't really want all the Meteorological history of ... obscure songs ... etc to appear TFA either, as they bore readers even if they meet FA standards. But today, what I mean when I say this is I don't want to see the article nominated at WP:TFA/R just because it passed FAC or FAR; there are more worthy mainpage candidates. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:34, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• Closing note: This removal candidate has been kept, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. DrKay (talk) 08:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)