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Another debate over the use of PS

I am currently involved in a debate at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Robert Spencer over when it is appropriate to quote and cite a primary source. Leaving aside the issues over whether Mr. Spencer is reliable or not on the subject of Islam, or under what circumstances he might or might not be reliable... the broader question is whether one can include a direct quote from an author's work, with full text attribution, and cite to that work. An editor has said that we can not do so, as that would be using a primary source and thus constitute OR. I disagree. I am contending that simply quoting a work (being very careful to keep what the source says in proper context) and citing to it is not OR. To my way of thinking, if one is adding a statement of opinion (with text attribution along the lines of: According to Robert Spencer, "blah blah blah") to an article, it is preferable to quote what the primary source says directly, and to cite it. Note that I am not talking about interpreting or analyzing what the primary source says in any way shape or form. I am simply talking about quoting the source. So which is right? Is quoting a primary source OR? Blueboar 16:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is he quoted? If the subject of the article where he is quoted is either Spencer, or one of his books, then it would be primary source. If the subject of the article where he is quoted is Islam or something else, then it is a secondary source. If the subject is about him or his books, then I think a secondary source is needed to verify the a) notability of the quote and/or b) to what broader context the quote is interpreted. Especially with controversial subjects, the secondary sources are absolutely key to a) or b). If a) and b) are either incontrovertible (not often the case in situations where they're most often used at WP for controversial subjects), or they are used 'directly in conjunction with how they are used in secondary sources, (ie no alternative interpretation, no new argument made with it, no innuendos implicit from cherry picked new quotes, etc) then it is fine to quote primary source. The trouble with how quotes from primary sources are often used at WP is that editors are using them for their own arguments and emphasis, ie original research, with exactly those tricks--cherry picking quotes to make new arguments or "show evidence" of claims in alternative ways that aren't found in otherwise WP qualified secondary sources.Professor marginalia 17:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the issue essentially relates to using him as a source in articles on Islam (he is a notable, but definitely biased critic). The aguments against using him run the gammit from omitting him as "exstremist" to claiming that quoting what he says constitutes OR (as they are his own views, and thus primary). If you would be so kind as to pop over to the RS noticeboard, read the section and add your comments... it will help get us off the primary/secondary sidetrack and back onto the issue of under what circumstances he might and might not be reliable (which is what should be discussed there). Thanks. Blueboar 17:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As I said on that page, the definition of a PS is 'documents or people very close to the subject under discussion', and thus Spencer qualifies as a PS in subjects to do with his life, work, or the modern political criticism of Islam, in which he is a central figure. ('very close'.) I also said that naturally quotes from a man who writes a blog, a paper a week, and a book a year are problematic if they are not kept in context, and unless they can be said to represent the main thrust of his argument as determined by reliable sources that are surveying the subject in general. To repeat: Spencer is not a scholar of Spencer; he is not a scholar specializing in studying the criticism. Spencer is a student of Islam, and a critic of Islam; there's a difference. He is permissible as a secondary source on Islam in general (if perhaps a little unreliable); but is a primary source, by definition, on articles dealing with his books or his work (criticism of Islam.) I completely agree that quotes are cherry-picked in order to emphasize perhaps minor claims, or those that the author would not, in context, support, and thus we need to, especially in controversial subjects, use sources that can ensure that that does not happen. Relata refero 18:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

How can you say he is a secondary source on Islam in general, but a primary source when it comes to criticizing Islam?... he is a critic of Islam... that is what makes him notable. Your concept that he is a primary source on "his work (criticism of Islam)" is rediculous. By your reasoning you could not use a noted particle physisist as a source in an article on particle physics because that is his "work (particle physics)". You are completely misunderstanding what PSTS is trying to say.

Could someone misuse a quote from Spencer in a way that constitutes OR?... yes. You can misuse any source. But you can not simply say "It's a primary source, and thus you can not use it". WP:PSTS allows for careful and appropriate use of primary sources. If all you are doing is stating Spencer's view on something to do with Islam, without going further... as long as all you do is say: "According to Robert Spencer, 'Islam is blah blah blah'<citation to where Spencer says this>" you are not in the realm of OR. Blueboar 18:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

To take your particle physics example, excepting the rather small probability that the physicist is himself a fundamental particle and thus the subject of the article, the question does not arise. In Criticism of Islam, Spencer is himself the subject of the article. He does not write about the criticism of Islam! He writes about Islam itself, if critically. Do you now see the distinction? Relata refero 19:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that placing this dispute in the realm of primary or secondary sources is incorrect. The use of that source is better assessed in the context of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and NPOV in general, as well as WP:SPS, notability, significance of the viewpoint, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree that this is primarily a NPOV issue, in that the intention seems to be to cite Spencer as a primary source of a notable minority view rather than as a reliable secondary source on the subject. Thus his statements or a summary of his statements can be cited as the fact that he's presented this view, and it should be set in the context of the majority view of specialists in the subject. Since it's a notable minority view, it should be possible to find secondary (or third party) reliable sources commenting on his view from the mainstream position to set the context. .. dave souza, talk 19:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, could you please pop over to the WP:RS/noticeboard and explain the intent of PSTS as it would relate to this issue. They are now saying that Spencer is a secondary source on Islam, and he somehow is a primary source when it comes to criticising Islam... which to me makes no sense whatsoever (they seem to be saying that he secondary when making positive or neutral comments, but suddenly primary when making negative comments.) I whole heartedly agree that this is a NPOV issue more than anything else. This really started because there was a question over whether he was "extremist" source and thus unreliable (the answer came back mixed, with some people saying that he was, and others countering that he is surely biased, but not extremist). When I commented that, given his know POV, it would probably be best to attribute his views and phraise things as statements of opinions and not as statementa of fact, people jumped all over me and objected on PSTS grounds. This seems to me to be a classic case of misinterpreting PSTS in order to object to inclusion of controvercial material. As a respected editor on most of our policy pages, your views would be appreciated. Blueboar 21:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi's welcome to chime in, but your interpretation is quite off-base. I, who think he's extremist, sure, jumped all over your misapplication of PSTS which is not specific to this case. In terms of NPOV, as I said several times, he is a very notable critic of Islam, and his work is a major part of the subject of Criticism of Islam articles, so it would be ridiculous to leave a discussion of his work out. (Which is why I am puzzled as to how this means that the argument would lead to the exclusion of controversial material.) Furthermore, several users have pointed out that this argument is not limited to critics, but to other similar situations. Consider the fact that in an article on the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, we could quote Gibbon, but in an article on Writing About the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, we should quote those who study Gibbon.

Hence, while there's a WP:NPOV issue in Islam articles, sure, where I would prefer that large chunks not be devoted to Spencer (or Hitchens, or Praveen Togadia) any more than large chunks of any mainstream philosophical or religious articles are devoted to major popular critics, but it's not an NPOV issue in the related criticism articles. There it's a PSTS and NOR issue. Relata refero 05:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ralata, let me see if I understand what you are saying... are you saying that it is fine (within reason and not giving undue weight) to cite Spencer in our current articles: Islam and Criticism of Islam... but not in an article called, for example: Historical criticism of Islam? Blueboar 12:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ralata refero, you're working with an interpretation of PSTS that I have not seen any other editor hold. Spencer is a secondary source, except in articles about himself and (perhaps) the specific school of thought to which he belongs. I do not see how it is at all a concern of PSTS and NOR. Could you perhaps explain your rationale more clearly? Vassyana 22:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, you have indeed fairly precisely stated what I am saying. To continue the example, Spencer is a primary source in articles about himself, or articles about the criticism and critics of Islam. As he he does not discuss the criticism of Islam, instead he criticizes Islam, he is a secondary source for religion-related articles, but a primary source in the narrow subset of articles that are about him, his work or his views.(I see this as a fairly straightforward implication of our current policy. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, becuase I think that this is how many people handle PSTS. If not, it needs to be rewritten.)

Blueboar, I think its fine to cite Spencer in an Islam article (leaving out concerns of undue weight.) THe Criticism of Islam article should have sections about Spencer others of his school of thought - Daniel Pipes is the only name I can think of off-hand - but should, rather than featuring wikipedians' summaries of what they believe are his main arguments, refer to and cite what reliable sources have said are his main arguments. (So, you see, I do not believe in 'excising' criticism.)Relata refero 16:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I get what you are saying now. I definitely disagree - In an article such as Criticism of Islam, I think we can and probably should refer to and cite Spencer directly. He is a notable critic of Islam and, as such, what he says is directly responsive to the topic of the article. We don't have to like or agree with what he says, but we should make note of it. It is not original research to do so. Blueboar 18:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you respond to the specific points I have made? He is not "responsive to the topic of the article" (which is a little unclear). He has never, to my knowledge, written a book or a paper discussing individuals or methods of criticizing Islam. He has written books on Islam that are criticial. Do we agree on that much? If we do, all else seems to follow.

"We don't have to like or agree with what he says, but we should make note of it." Well yes, as I have already said twice, the article must make note of his views. But it isn't up to individual WP editors to pick and choose; we need reliable secondary sources to make that determination for us. Relata refero 20:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I know that this page is paralysed by other concerns, but I'd just like people to check in and ensure that we are in agreement on this principle. We make note of people's opinions in the article in which they are primary sources, but NOR as it currently stands indicates we should use secondary sources on their work to choose what is important - even if we then cite chapter and verse in their own books as well. Relata refero 08:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Taking the dive (PSTS proposal)

User:Vassyana/NOR 002. This proposal is intended to replace the current PSTS section. I have reviewed the past (extensive) discussions about the PSTS section. I do not believe this draft meets all expectations expressed by all commenting editors. I do believe it addresses nearly all of the expressed concerns, beyond the existence of the categories themselves. Certainly, I feel it is a solid attempt at moving towards a compromise position. If you agree with the proposed change, please clearly share why for everyone's benefit. If you disagree, please similarly be explicit in your objection and its reasoning. Cheers! Vassyana 23:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC) The two proposals I've put forward and the unprotection, as well as the recent changes and the recent straw poll, have been announced on the policy village pump. 23:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Changes

• Added language to the end of the first paragraph of "secondary sources" in order to address concerns about the lack of a tertiary category and/or mention of the utility of broad references.[1] Suggestions for tightening up the language and further concerns about the proposal are welcome. 23:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  
• Added language to the second paragraph of the "primary sources" section, in order to address the legitimate concern about the clear consensus for the use of some primary sources (such as census data in city articles).[2] 21:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
  
• Revised by Dhaluza and Vassyana.[3][4] (Total net changes since proposal.[5]) 15:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

* I would support that wording, as a good attempt to clarify existing application of this policy, without diluting its meaning or introducing new principles. It may need a bit of tightening, but it is actually pretty good as is. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jossi. WAS 4.250 18:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Is the new proposal to remove tertiary sources from the basic approach? Tertiary sources turn out to be extremely useful in summarizing large bodies of secondary sources, such as we run into in religious articles, philosophy articles, even scientific articles and a host of other kinds of articles where such overarching summaries can be important in the context of NOR. Another thing I should mention is that if a whole lot of changing is about to be done to WP:NOR, it might be a good idea to let the wikiproject doing the audio recordings know what's afoot at present... Kenosis 00:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, what can be tightened up about it? Anything in particular catch your attention or concern? Vassyana 09:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I re-read it, and it is pretty good to go as is. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It was one letter too long.  :) WAS 4.250 18:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Good catch! :) Vassyana 23:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, I left out tertiary sources because they seemed superfluous. Many fields don't make a distinction between secondary and tertiary, and even those that do discuss the difficulty in determining the distinction in practice. Breaking it down into the two most common categories seemed liked a good move towards some clarification. However, it would be simple enough to note that review articles and subject references providing a broad treatment are useful in summarizing large bodies of literature and research. Since we work with summary style on Wikipedia, they are useful for avoiding original synthesis and undue weight. Would something expressing those principles help allay your concerns? Is there anything else that raises some issues for you? Vassyana 09:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Without getting hung-up on definitions, I see a significant benefit to touching on the value of the "broad treatment" sources, such as general encyclopedias; they're good sources for estimating the appropriate weight to handle ancillary, dissenting, or trivial views in article subjects. Of course, disagreements over the question of weight given to particular views are one of the most common sources of edit warring.Professor marginalia 16:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've attempted to add language reflecting the concerns you and Kenosis have raised. See the "note" above. Vassyana 23:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I really like the proposal. To me, one major benefit is that it keeps the distinction between primary and secondary sources in place, but directly relates the discussion of primary/secondary sources to the issue of Original Research... which I don't think the current wording does well enough. I especially like the fact that it discusses the limited situations when it is appropriate to use primary sources (perhaps an example will help?). Blueboar 12:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree: I'd tweak it a little in addressing rare situations when articles may be justifiably based on primary sources alone. I'm not coming up with examples in my head where primary sources might suffice as only refs to the articles. For starters, how is notability demonstrated without secondary sources? Professor marginalia 16:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've no inherent objection to something along the lines proposed by Vassyana, though I think it needs cautious parsing while keeping the larger policy in perspective. Remember, please, that the way the currently discussed objections to PSTS came up in the first place was that in practice there were some situations that didn't appear to some users to easily fit into the basic PSTS distinction. Thus, for example, Vassyana's proposed statement that a single source can be considered primary in some applications and secondary in other applications. But remember also that the way tertiary sources came to be added to secondary sources about a year ago was in response to basic conceptual questions such as "Well then, what is Wikipedia?" (turns out that taken as a whole Wikipedia is in general a tertiary source that may sometimes draw on other tertiary sources). Overall I see some valuable points made in Vassyana's proposal that act to clarify some questions about PSTS but which may miss other points that have already been raised on occasion. ... Kenosis 16:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The simple answer to "What is Wikipedia?" is "It doesn't matter." If someone needs to view in these terms, "Wikipedia is a (broad) secondary source." I've included language that attempts to address your earlier stated concerns about the lack of tertiary category. What other raised concerns do you think the draft might miss? Do you think this is movement in the correct direction? Vassyana 23:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

interim support with reservations: It's significantly better than the current language, and I'd support the edit in the interim toward a final draft, because it's a step in the right direction. In particular, I like the following:

• It does away with the category of tertiary source, which is not needed and not helpful in defining the policy. The reason why a tertiary source like Wikipedia might not be an ideal source is because it is too "primary" (in the sense used here) because it is too raw and unsourced.
• I like the statement that " A secondary source from one article may be treated as a primary source in another, because the focus has changed." I'd also like to see a statement that an entire work is not classified monolithically. A single reference may contain both raw ("primary") and interpretive ("secondary") portions.

However, it still has the following issues:

• Using the terms primary and secondary in a non-standard way like this is bound to cause problems. If we use these terms, they should be defined the same way as in the articles primary source and secondary source. A solution would be to use made-up terms, like was suggested before. I'd suggest raw sources and interpretive sources. Raw sources include unprocessed data and other information not designed to directly communicate a conclusion or result to a public audience. Interpretive sources include sources designed to communicate a result or conclusion to an audience.
• It classifies interviews in the "raw" (bad) category. They are indeed primary sources in the academic sense, but they should be included in the good category (defined here as "secondary", but probably best named "analytical"). Why? interviews are the most reliable and accurate sources of people's positions, opinions, and conclusions, and are very widely cited in Wikipedia. They should not be classed in the "raw" category.
• It classifies artistic and fictional works in the "raw" (bad) category, but they can also be in the "interpretive" (good) category. Artistic works are frequently commentative (documentaries, for example). According to my definition above of "interpretive sources", these would fit in that category.
• I don't think we need to say that the use of "primary" ("raw") sources should be unusual. For some topics, such as the thousands of articles on small cities in the United States, "raw" information (demographics, population, lattitude and longitude, etc.) is frequent. As long as editors follow the rules, and only make descriptive claims, etc., there's no reason "raw" information needs to be rare or unusual.
• I don't think there should be a loophole loosening the rules for "raw" information contained within secondary sources. Just because you cite from a separate "interpretive" source doesn't mean that you are exempt from the rule of being descriptive about the raw data. Besides, citing a separate "interpretive" source does not add anything, and potentially may introduce errors. For example, the evangelical preacher misquotes and cherry-picks raw scientific data from a peer-reviewed journal. It's better to cite the peer-reviewed journal for that raw data. If you're going to use "raw" information, and you follow the rules, you should cite from the original source, if possible.

COGDEN 17:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

COGDEN, I don't see those flaws in User:Vassyana/NOR 002. Are we even reading the same thing? WAS 4.250 18:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about the same draft. Why wouldn't it apply? Maybe there are minor tweaks I can make to address some of the concerns. COGDEN 05:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) I think changing the terminology may be a next step, but this draft in and of itself is a significant rewrite of the section. Let's take it one step at a time. You're probably aware that I support using other terms, but I'm wary of trying to do too much at once. Let's get a good formulation to work from and then address some of the further issues, such as the terms themselves. In the changes since posting the proposal, the consensus for the use of some primary sources has been noted, explicitly pointing out interviews and census data. I'd rather not make further changes in that regard, for now. I'm looking for an agreeable compromise and for things nearly all of us acknowledge are in practice and acceptable. We can address further changes after the first step of building an an agreeable basis for moving forward. Documentaries wouldn't be considered "artistic works" by most editors and would be a minority of such a category, even if included. Certainly, I've always considered them to be secondary sources, simply audiovisual instead of printed. That is the way I've generally seen them treated by Wikipedia editors, but if it were necessary a footnote could address documentaries. The key phrase with primary sources in secondary publications is: "as they are used". That is, if a reliable secondary source quotes or otherwise indicates a specific section of a primary source and provides an interpretation or analysis, then it is perfectly appropriate to say that primary source X says Y which means Z as long as it is cited to the secondary source saying that. Concerns about bias may be legitimate, but that is a concern for NPOV. However, the current revision of the proposal does include language cautioning about undue weight and the used of biased sources in relation to NPOV. I hope that address your concerns, at least for now. If you have further concerns or comments, please share them. Cheers! Vassyana 16:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I haven't looked at Vassyana's proposal yet (maybe tomorrow). But, addressing COgden's statements above, I would have to clarify a couple of points on his statements. Raw sources (primary sources) can, and often do communicate a conclusion or result to a public audience. A perfect example from two fields I've worked in are blueprints (either mechanical, electrical, or architectural), and flow charts. They are raw sources, and they also communicate a conclusion (the finished product, or end result). The usually (but not always), show the steps required to progress from various 'building blocks' (components, materials, data sources, etc.) to the finished product, or desired end-result. wbfergus ^Talk 19:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've still to pull my thoughts together on Vassyana's proposal, but on a technical note blueprints were superseded by dyeline prints in the 1960s, so they're historic documents, and in any format they're technical drawings which need expertise to interpret properly. As primary sources they're likely to need considerable care. Perhaps you mean presentation drawings aimed at the general public? Beware of taking them at face value. .. dave souza, talk 20:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Dave, I don't know what they technically were, but the place I worked at back in the early '80's still called them blueprints, and they were created the same way as I created them in school in the early '70's. In any case, since the technical wording doesn't really matter, many of them don't need any expertise to interpret. The ones we used (and some of the ones I created), were assembly drawings, showing how the various parts fit together. Those were designed so those with a minimal education (if even that), could look at them and see which piece went where, and in which orientation. Many architecural drawings are they same way, especially those that show the 'finished product', whether the outside elevations or just the floorplans. Those are primary, or raw sources, and they communicate a conclusion. They are rarely available in any definition of a secondary source, except possibly a couple hand-picked ones for a marketing brochure (since usually a set of blueprints can easily contain 40, 50 or more, detailing all 'pieces' or steps required to create the finished product). At any rate, whether they are historic documents or technical drawings, they are still primary or raw. Some may need technical expertise to properly interpret, but many do not, especially those created for use on an assembly line. wbfergus ^Talk 11:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana: I would think that it would be a good idea to make your edit at this point. I think that there is broad support at least for a first baby next step. And that is a good thing ... I would want to go into the weekend with a show of some progress after the long and protracted discussion about this issue. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this belongs in WP:RS since it is focusing on the reliability of the sources. I also disagree with the extreme depreciation of primary sources. Dhaluza 14:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The principal focus is on original research. The closest it comes to defining reliability is in providing a rough definition of "reliable secondary source", which is nothing more than repetition of an uncontroversial broad definition based on existing policy. The draft certainly encourages reliable sources, but that is also noncontroversial and well-within community consensus. This sounds more like a nutshell repetition of objections to a PSTS/PSS section, rather than a response to this specific proposal. Is this proposal any better or worse than the current section? Is it a step in the right or wrong direction? As I politely request above, please be explicit in support or rejection and your reasoning for it. Vassyana 21:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

By my count the word reliable is used 10 times in the draft, so this is not a generic comment, it's specific to this draft which seems to be more about RS than NOR. Also if we are defining primary sources only to depreciate them as reliable sources, rather than to explain NOR, then I not only disagree with its applicability to NOR, I also disagree with its broad applicability to any WP policy. Dhaluza 18:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Dhaluza, the difference is that in Vassyana's proposed language, we are talking about reliable primary or secondary sources in the context of what makes their use Original Research. We are not talking about what makes the source reliable in the first place (which would be discussed in RS). Blueboar 18:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The recent expansions push it in the right direction. I've edited it to nudge it a little further. Dhaluza 09:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, what you have is very good. To me, it seems much clearer what the policy means and how it is 'supposed' to be applied. Some wiki-lawyers may have objections, or some wordsmiths may have a couple suggestions, but overall I see it as a major improvement over the current policy wording. wbfergus ^Talk 13:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Primary, secondary, and tertiary

I'm unclear on where we stand with regard to the "Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources" section. Is there a consensus to replace its contents with User:Vassyana/NOR 002? I think everyone agress that it is better, even if some wish to tweak it further. So I'm gonna do that. Perhaps we can tweak it in place if people feel that additions such as bringing up tertiary sources are needed. WAS 4.250 18:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC

Are you talking about the proposed language at User:Vassyana/NOR 002? If so, I agree. If not, what are you talking about? Blueboar 18:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I left out the "User:Vassyana/NOR 002" and we had an edit conflict that prevented me from fixing it before you replied. WAS 4.250 18:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that's two of us for this version, and Jim62sch has decided to vote via edit warring to this version. WAS 4.250 21:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Move slowly, WAS. We made some changes and that is a good think. Let it stay for a while and then we take the next step. Slow and steady wins the race. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with moving slowly, let others who haven't been participating in the discussions have a chance to see things in a piecemeal fashion, maybe a week or two between edits. This gives people who may be on vacation or otherwise engaged in non-Wikipedia work a chance to slowly absorb the changes, instead of coming back and finding what they would consider major changes. As far as those who decide to just engage in edit wars without participating in constructive discussions, I'd just say ignore them and any reverts. They know the rules and have been encouraged to participate accordingly several times, and they still decide to ignore active and constructive participation. Lets wait until next week before making any other changes to the policy, even if there is broad concensus for doing so. wbfergus ^Talk 13:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to read all of this and get up to to speed. I think it fascinating how people keep pointing people to this article as if it was set in stone and not realizing how much debate is going on here. Several people have suggested that we use the same definitions of the terms, primary sources, secondary sources and tertiary sources, as are described in these articles. I would point out that the second and third of these articles seems to be almost entirely the usage in history and in particular has no mention of the usage in science. The first has a brief mention of the usage in science but I do not find it adequate. The use of the terms in science it not always the same as in history and there is quite a bit of confusion on wikipedia about this. It might be a good idea to resolve this first. --Bduke 00:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. We should get the articles (primary sources, secondary sources and tertiary sources) into good shape first, so that we have facts to work with.

Regarding sciences, it is my understanding that these terms are simply not used, certainly not even close to their sense in history/literature. In science, sources can be radioactive sources, with the primary source being the reference calibration source, and secondary sources being calibrated against the first, but I contend that this is a completely difference usage. There seems to be a lot of scientist wikipedians who are stirring the confusion. I think they need to accept that scientific language is not encyclopaedic language. The reporting of science is not science, and wikipedia is not science. Wikipedia is reference literature, and given that it is emphatically not news, why not treat it with the standards and terminology of historical literature. --SmokeyJoe 01:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Because we have to fit our sources to these standards and terminology and I, for one, am not convinced that they do fit. I do not think any of us are stirring the confusion. There just is confusion. Historical language is not encyclopaedic language either. --Bduke 01:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I don’t think that we “have to fit our sources” at all. WP:NOR and WP:N are not helpful policies/guidelines, except in their help at guiding WP:AfD. Secondary sources are the clearest way to demonstrate notability. WP:NOR and WP:N are just rules that get severely enforced on newbie editors who create low quality articles. As such, they are only applied to borderline articles. The secondary source test, aka WP:N based on WP:NOR, is just a test. An article passing the test can then use and organise its sources without reference to primary/secondary distinctions. Serious articles by serious editors need not bother with the primary/secondary source distinction. As has been thoroughly explored here in the last month, primary vs secondary distinctions has very little to do with reliability. If an article, such as the typical science article, is under no threat of being accused of being “nn”, then the sources are free to be used in the article without anyone attempting to distinguish secondary from primary. --SmokeyJoe 02:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right for sound science articles, but I suspect the point I was trying to make is very important for dealing with articles on pseudoscience or just plain crap science where the editors try to use scientific sources. I need to think about it rather more, so lets leave it for now. BTW, I googled "Primary sources science" and got a bunch of links from libraries. They use the distinction but their approaches are not all exactly the same. --Bduke 07:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not required to explicitly follow the manner of usage of the concept of primary, secondary and tertiary sources as it may be applied in any other field of endeavor, nor is it necessary that the articles on primary sources, secondary sources and tertiary sources precisely track the application of the principle on this policy page. The WP usage already roughly tracks the usage in library science. Initially the primary/secondary source distinction was by directive of the founder, J. Wales, (cited at the bottom of the project page) and since then it has been developed by community consensus. It is true, as Smokey Joe just said, that the distinction often does not come into play at all, in much the same way that arguments over WP:NPOV and WP:V often do not come into play (such as in numerous cases where statements in an article simply aren't contested). Nonetheless the PSTS distinction has turned out to be quite valuable in articles on controversial topics where editors disagree about what material to cite. One of the more recent "poster children" for this principle has been in the article on homeopathy, where it is readily possible to cherrypick primary sources such as particular experiments, but where reliable secondary sources provide a more accurate interpretation of the overall body of research. ... Kenosis 15:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a nice take on the issue, especially the observation that we shouldn't be worried about uncontested issues which seems to be forgotten at times. Spenny 16:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, Jimbo has never introduced any primary/secondary source distinction into Wikipedia, and he has never imposed any requirement on sources other than that they be reliable. However, I'm sure that Jimbo would agree that Wikipedia itself should never be a primary source, but he has never had any problem, as far as I am aware, with Wikipedia being a purely secondary source (i.e., citing primary sources without adding new ideas or research). We're not talking here about what Wikipedia is, though: we're talking about what additional requirements, if any, should be imposed on sources in addition to their being reliable. COGDEN 19:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

It's true that science itself does not really use a primary/secondary distinction. It is used, however, by researchers on the history of science. And that is what NOR is really about: what is the history of the original idea. According to science historians, the primary source of a scientific idea is the publication where that idea first appears. A secondary source is any publication that repeats or discusses the non-original idea. However, scientific secondary sources are almost always also primary sources, since to get published, a scientist always needs a new idea. The secondary source article is the primary source for the derived idea. That's pretty much a general principle: almost anything that is published is a primary source, because only original ideas get published. However, many if not most published sources are also secondary source, because they comment on prior sources. COGDEN 19:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, that is a valuable insight. Let me add that with that prospective, review articles are then mostly secondary sources. Indeed they ought to be just secondary sources as they should not contain original work. However, in recent years review articles have contained original work that was not published elsewhere. We also need to realize that too many review articles in science are not independent sources as they mostly stick to work from the group of the main author. The days of balanced reviews of a whole area of science seems to have largely gone. There are also publications such as the specialist periodical reports of the Royal Society of Chemistry with really just mention original papers, summarizing them without analysis. These are useful to scientists but probably not useful to us. --Bduke 00:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Cogden and Bduke, in my opinion this is trying to force PSTS into an overly rigid interpretation of the principle. It's not just review articles that are secondary sources, but the entire range of interpretation, which depends on numerous parameters including the size of the body of research, how controversial it is (e.g.homeopathy), whether it's controversial in the scientific community or just in a political or other applied context (e,g,, evolution and intelligent design), what practical applications may be involved (e.g., stem cell research), how widely misunderstood it may be in the public (e.g. quantum mechanics) and other issues that come into play. These and many other types of articles are not reducible to, say, "don't cherrypick the sources". or "use only reliable sources", etc.. We run into the same type of issue with philosophy articles, religious articles, history articles, and numerous other types of articles where editors disagree about the content of an article. The allocation of PSTS depends very much on the topic of the article (and also upon a reasoned participation among editors in discussion about the content of an article), not upon a predetermined, precise, legalistic interpretation that strictly defines in advance every possible permutation of the concept. ... Kenosis 15:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Sources - Disputed section?

If the section is disputed, please discuss and do not edit it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

What have we been doing the last three months? Reverting the tag is silly. Of all things to start an edit war about, this is the stupidest. I'm going to wait a while (until you regain your sanity, Jossi), then re-insert the tag. COGDEN 05:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters whether we have a tag or not. The discussion is not going to end becuase the tag is added or removed. With Vassyana's proposal, we seem to be closing in on consensus language... let's focus on that instead of on whether there is a stupid tag or not. We have a proposal on the table (Vassyana's version). There is no point in making small edits to the extant policy section if we are potentially going to replace it with Vassyana's proposal. Let's settle the big issue first. Blueboar 13:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This tag issue is becoming unhelpful, Codgen. Please consider dropping it and moving forward instead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It's important to have a tag, if for nothing else than to prevent the article from lying about itself. You'll notice at the top, there is a caption box stating that the article "has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow." Until that statement becomes true with respect to the PSTS section, we need a tag to alert editors that the section is not yet at consensus level. At the moment, the section is kind of experimental. If consensus emerges, then we can remove the tag. COGDEN 18:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It's far better to have a tag on the specific section that says what's under discussion, rather than a protection tag on the whole policy saying it's in dispute. The new tag is a reasonable compromise to the disputed tag, and serves to direct people to the talk page to join the discussion. Dhaluza 23:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Personal testimony

Not adequately discussed in the article is testimony of an editor who is a direct witness to events. For example, there is a book that can be cited, Jonathan Karl, The Right to Bear Arms: The Rise of America's New Militias, HarperCollins, New York (1995) ISBN 0061010154, which contains an error, a quotation of a speech I made at a public event that was actually delivered as a printed handout. Short of gathering affidavits from other witnesses to the event, it should be possible for the editor to make a correcting comment based on him having been a witness, without that being rejected as "original research". This might usefully take a tag, "statement of personal witness" or some such.

Articles are almost entirely edited by nonwitnesses, but we need to allow for the participation of those who have been actual witnesses. Perhaps we could provide some system for filing images of verified affidavits for witness statenents. Jon Roland 14:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Witness accounts are notoriously unreliable and have been known to contradict the body of other evidence. Beyond that, Wikipedia is predicated on the representing the body of published information. Between the two, there is little room for such a proposal. Vassyana 15:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a first publisher of information. If there is a mistake in the historical record of an event, get the publisher to correct it on the next edition, or in an Erratum. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep, unfortunately somebody can get something published, and then either intentionally or unintenionally inject "mistakes", and once it's published it carries much more weight than any eyewitness accounts. Then, trying to get the "mistakes" corrected afterwards is nigh onto impossible, and by then it seems at least one other "source" gets published using the same "mistake". Then, the "mistake" gets perpetuated and slowly becomes "fact" over the course of time. Publishers, especially of books, rarely are concerned with with being accurate, they merely want to get something out there so people can buy them. Then, the more controversy over the book, the better the sales. I've tried numerous times to get various 'things' corrected, jumping through all kinds of hoops presenting evidence and statements to no avail. Publishers aren't concerned once something is in print and being sold to people, unless it may turn out to be a financial "detriment" (lawsuit, etc.). wbfergus ^Talk 15:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• No way. Such a policy allowing this would be disasterous. I've already dealt with the situation where an editor embroiled in edit wars offered in all seriousness to do investigative type reporting IRL and take down new "witness" statements for the specific purpose of sourcing his otherwise completely unverified claims in his edits at WP. "On demand" generation of references would have terrible consequences in an open and anonymously edited encyclopedia.Professor marginalia 16:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I recognize this suggestion has a history, but I did not find in that history my suggestion for the uploading of images of verified (sworn) affidavits, which are acceptable in a court of law. It seems to me that it would work to allow citing to such affidavits, or other online court documents, such as those one can access through Pacer, as a way to allow corrections of errors in published works by witnesses, without getting into the problems mentioned above. The suggestions mentioned below are all very well, but don't go to corrections in cited works, which errors might otherwise get propagated before someone comes along to correct them in a reputable medium, something that could take years or decades. Jon Roland 20:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This is an anyone can edit and anyone can verify encyclopedia. It is not a place for original research. We are not a publishing house for information not available in other places. That is not what an encyclopedia does. No. We will not let anyone publish things here based on an something that is not publicly verify-able. We can however delete some things that are proved false to a trusted user such as a person claiming his birth date is wrong in the article on him. OTRS can be contacted for such purposes. We deleted that a covered bridge had no traffic when a trusted user saw it have traffic. But without a source that anyone can use to verify it we could not add that the bridge had traffic. Some things are judgement calls, but as a matter of policy there is no way Wikipedia is going to do as you suggest. WAS 4.250 21:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"Online court documents" are published reliable primary sources that can already be used according to existing policy. They must be used with care, but they can be used. WAS 4.250 21:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

One important point in this is that they must actually be a court document... ie filed with a court of law. This is because we recognize court websites as being a reliable publishers of such documents. You can not simply write up an affidavit, scan it and put it on a website. We need the "impramator" of the court system, saying it is legit. Beyond that, WAS's comment is right on the money.Blueboar 22:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• A few pages have been created devoted to research into issues related to Wikipedia; for instance Wikipedia:Statistics Department and Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikidemia. These pages may contain original research; that is, research for which there is no reference other than projects in the Wikipedia namespace. Original research that does not have Wikipedia as its object should, however, be avoided on these pages too.
• Meta-Wiki allows original research, see for instance m:research, m:Wikiresearch, m:Wikimedia Research Network, m:wikiversity, m:category:research, and m:statistics.
• Wikipedia-style websites that allow original research but are not affiliated with the Wikimedia Foundation include Wikinfo, Everything 2 and Urban Dictionary.
• Wikinews allows original reporting. See the Original Reporting page on Wikinews for more information.

Try adding it to Wikinews. WAS 4.250 16:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The gist of the original question is whether personal knowledge of events is enough to trump a reliable source, not whether we want wholesale admission of personal accounts. The answer is still generally no, but it's a more limited question. If a person feels that he himself has been misquoted, slighted, or otherwise disserved by a Wikipedia article, then that person can bring it up on the talk page, and people will probably respect it. The discussions on the talk page about what actually happened, whether someone is portrayed unfairly or slandered, etc., follows a different discussion format that doesn't strictly adhere to NOR. In fact, OR and unverified claims are just fine on the talk page within some bounds. If it's a minor error of no consequence I would just fix it, and see if anyone challenges it. If they do, I'm afraid that a book by a reliable author trumps a statement of "that's not true" by a witness or someone personally involved to the events. If there's a place to correct errors in the official history, it starts somewhere other than Wikipedia. For example, if it were important enough and you got another reliable source somewhere else that the book is in error, you could say there is a conflict among sources, and people will choose the more believable one, all things considered. And in a practical sense, if you see something that's clearly wrong but sourced (e.g. tornado wind speeds are 300-500 mph, which they used to think in the 1950s and can thus be sourced), you can certainly use your personal expertise as the basis for finding better sources to set the article straight. Wikidemo 23:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• Personal testimony, observation, whatever is fully Original Research. There is absolutely no other way to describe it. --Rocksanddirt 00:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say almost always Original Research... but there are a few exceptions... for example, if someone's personal testimony, observation, whatever, was included in a reliable source (say an autobiography). Assuming no one objected to the obvious conflict of interest, the person who was made the observation could quote that text in an article without violating NOR. It wouldn't be original to Wikipedia. Blueboar 03:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

maybe. Most of the time it would still be OR, and generally autobiographies are not reliable sources (I don't think). How closely are they fact checked? reality checked? --Rocksanddirt 04:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

we are getting way off topic... but Autobiographies can be reliable or not, depending on how and where they are used. context is everything. In an article about the subject of the autobiography, it should be reliable... at least for the subject's view of his/her life. (I would probably phrase any reference with text attribution to make this clear). But the point is, it would not be Original Research. In any case, I suspect my possible exemption would be very rare indeed. Ideally, the subject of an article shouldn't edit the article on him/her. They should simply comment on the talk page, and ask others to edit. Blueboar 13:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

To give another take - I essentially described a use of personal testimony related to Noddy Holder and I think it is relevant in the context of a sensible application of Ignore All Rules. If there is someone closely involved with a subject who attests that the article is incorrect and provides a plausible justification, then this should at least be the trigger for a close examination of the sourcing of the disputed comments. If the sources are not of a high standard of reliability, then we have just cause to treat the issue as disputed and remove or qualify it in some way, or use other sources to verify the testimony.

The issue is to make sure we do our best to be accurate, not do our best to follow the rules blindly. If someone can present evidence in good faith that an article is wrong, then we have a duty to reflect that. However, we must also be mindful that someone close to the source may not be objective and so we also have a duty to consider that. So as a rule, personal testimony is not sound for creating articles, but it may be a tool for challenging the veracity of an article. Spenny 14:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Good wording of how the policies "should" be applied. No idea though how that concept can be written into existing policies without weakening the policies though. My word skills aren't up to that level, but I really like the concept. Eyewitnes-type testimony can be extremely unreliable, but then agin, the same can often be said (and documented), about secondary source type information, usually from someone seeking to establish a biased point of view. History articles (especially Military History) are notorious for this. As the saying goes, "History is written by the victors". It can also be para-phrased to "History is written by those who seek to make a name for themselves, by getting published". Accuracy or reliability can be easily ignored in history, often just by selective use of sources (just like this policy and the other policies seek to take aim at). Some historians are keen on trying to remain objective and nuetral and equally presenting all sides. Other historians, usually those trying to distinguish themselves from all of the other work already out there, instead selectively use every source they can find (whether reliable or not), to only advance a "non-mainstream" POV of the event. But, once their work is published, they can usually get enough 'supporters' to clamor that the work is the "authoritive definitions of the events leading up to, and through XYZ event". It then becomes a reliable and verifiable source, even if it's based on a highly POV bias and would otherwise be considered as a fringe theory. wbfergus ^Talk 18:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Press again

Happy to be edited, but I am not sure that this change has the intended effect. My original edit was just to raise the question of the reliability of newspapers without getting into depth about it - the depth is needed in the reliable sources guideline.

Periodicals does not, to me, have the general connotation of newspapers, so now we seem to have a policy that does not speak about newspapers at all. Although it is primarily an issue of reliable sourcing, it does have strong implications for NOR as the selective use of poor quality writing of dubious veracity does create the opportunity to write about things which are not commonly held views while giving the impression they have arisen from reliable sources (e.g. guest writing opinion pieces are not typical reliable sources). This becomes especially so when we consider the wide range of types of writing within a newspaper and the wide range of topics covered.

My wording attempted to address this without diving off at a tangent. The new wording seems to me to ignore the need to be circumspect about the press as a source.

Comments? Spenny 13:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between opinion pieces (Op-Ed) and the basic reporting of a newspaper. An Op-Ed piece is not a generally considered a reliable source...The exception, perhaps, being for a statement about the opinion of the author. And such a statement of opinion has all sorts of caveats and limitations in my opinion... I would say that the fact that the author holds this opinion should be notable in relation to the topic of the article (thus, their opinion is also notable)... It would say that it should be attributed in line so that it is clear that it is an opinion and not "fact". And there are probably other cautions to be given on "statements of opinion" that I am not thinking of at the moment.

But the basic reporting of news events in a mainstream newspaper is generally considered reliable. As it relates to NOR... what you are really talking about is selective use of the source. In this case, the source isn't the problem... the misuse of the source that is the problem. A piece from the source is being taken out of context to support OR. The policy already makes it clear that we should not do this. Blueboar 14:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd take issue with the concept that mainstream newspapers are generally reliable. In the UK, every paper has a political standpoint and cannot be considered a reliable source for fact or opinion on political issues. With regard to academic articles, we have to bear in mind why articles are written; often it might well be that the journalistic sensation is the oddball opinion that is newsworthy just because it does not have the backing of mainstream science - medical cures would be a good example where the press are happy to publish articles on alternative medicine. With regard to other subjects, we need to be more and more mindful of WikiJournalism where we are the hidden source for the article.

Then there is the problematic issue of "What is a mainstream newspaper?". The Sunday Sport published stories of Hitler's Dornier found on the moon and other nonsense, so we might conclude it was not mainstream, but the likes of the Mail are likely to heavily distort reporting to suit their political or circulation agenda. Basically, the more controversial the subject, the more likely a newspaper is to be unreliable, which is the opposite of what we need. Spenny 14:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

These are excellent questions Spenny, and about time somebody asked them. The idea of "neutral" and "objective" journalism is becoming an oxymoron these days. How do we incorporate some of these concerns into this policy, is the $64,000 question... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

My view is that, in a sense, we don't. What we also should not do is assert that mainstream newspapers are reliable without question. I am happy that any newspaper article can allow people to pass the basic hurdle of NOR in the most simplistic sense but then we have to apply all those other tests. In some respects this is more an issue of NPOV. (Stops himself before generating another of his famous tangents). Spenny 16:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree... its more an issue for NPOV (and also for WP:V and WP:RS). As far as NOR is concerned, the same rules apply for newspapers as for any other source. Don't misuse any source to back original research. Blueboar 17:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

(dindent)This "mainstream newspaper" thing is - like primary-secondary-tertiary stuff - entirely subjective. It is always material in context to which common sense must be applied, and one can't just say the medium as a whole would be subject to NOR or RS or whatever.

Example: Pravda could per-se be cited for a quotation of Brezhnev. A quotation of Brezhnev to tell us how wonderful communism is could be OR. A quotation of Brezhnev in an article of the Cuban missile crisis could be non-RS. But it is not necessarily OR or non-RS.

None of this would depend on Pravda's qualification as a "mainstream newspaper." Indeed, if Pravda cites Brezhnev on communism, that citation is a secondary source, not a primary one. If Pravda collates several different sources in an article on some aspect of Soviet communism, that article even becomes a reliable tertiary source.

As always, its a question of defining (and applying!) common sense; the use of arbitrary blanket definitions ("mainstream", "secondary sources" etc) can never work. Or to put it another way: Is sunshine better than rain? -- Fullstop 17:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I have changed my mind from my first comment to the position that we do not take any position on newspapers. So when I look at the policy now and I see that it does not refer to newspapers at all, either for or against, I think it looks right. I think my edit to reliable sources, which has survived a whole two days unchallenged, (which I think is something of a record around here!), does try and reflect the points you raise which is a change from the previous assertion that mainstream papers were a reliable source. If the amendment survives the week, I'll look at bringing all the policy pages in line with a more cautious stance. Spenny 17:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Good call, Spenny! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Each journalistic source needs to be assessed on its own merits, taken in context of the topic being presented, irrespective of whether the periodical is generally considered "mainstream". Even within a given newspaper, a story about a traffic accident (one of the examples presently used in PSTS) may be assessed as having a different level of reliability than a statement about national or international policy drawn from an "Op-ed" piece. I don't agree that it's entirely subjective as Fullstop said, but I certainly agree it cannot properly be simplified to whether the source is a "mainstream newspaper". ... Kenosis 18:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

sorry, poor choice of words. What I meant was "non-absolute." -- 17:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fullstop (talk • contribs)

Baby / bathwater. I can't speak to the UK or anywhere outside the US the mainstream press (e.g. NY times, WS Journal, Christian Science Monitor, Washington Post, LA Times - and online, MSNBC, Fox, CNN, etc), including the next couple tiers down (SF Chronicle, Sacramento Bee, Miami Herald, etc), are as solid as you are going to find, particularly for establishing notability but also for a wide range of material. You simply have to know how to use them. Don't trust the Miami Herald on the details of a scientific finding, or ancient history, but you can trust them as well as anyone on the biographical details of a local person, or business events in their scope of coverage. I don't think we have the equivalent of the Mail in the US. Anything that's more of a tabloid or partisan press would not be considered mainstream, however great its circulation. So, for example, the Washington Times (conservative POV despite full editorial process) or the New York Daily News (tabloid, despite pulitzer prize and huge circulation) are viewed as slightly less than mainstream, with a good dose of suspicion. Wikidemo 18:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You simply have to know how to use them. which is the nub of the problem. You cannot convey that in a broad brush statement that mainstream newspapers are reliable sources which was how it stood a few days ago. (I don't think we are disagreeing, it is just a matter of emphasis or tone to resolve). Spenny 19:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. And, the nub of the nub of You simply have to know how to use them is - as far as NOR is concerned - the word "use".

• The "use" is what NOR policy covers (ala 'thou shalt not interpret or draw conclusions').
• The "them" is what RS policy covers (as in your "... newspapers are reliable sources ...").

So, since this is NOR policy we're discussing, it's "use" that needs emphasis. The "them" (sources) is incidental to give the verb an object to bind to. ;-)

The nubs are thus: You simply have to know 1) how to identify appropriate sources; and 2) how to use those sources appropriately.

Newspapers - being sources - kick in at #1, while NOR - being evaluation - kicks in at #2.

-- Fullstop 17:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• If information taken from a newspaper (or any other source) is at all contentious, the inclusion of this information into the article can be done in proper journalistic format - i.e., instead of "In July 1987, Hitler was found on the moon", the sentence could be "In July 1987, the Times of London printed an article asserting that Hitler was found on the moon". Nothing in that latter sentence would be unfactual or actionable, and it wouldn't mislead a reader of the article. I've used this approach and have heard no complaints - I think it also makes the article look more encyclopedic. Thoughts? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 16:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't go for that approach - it opens the door for all sorts of nonsense. I don't think Wikipedia should abdicate its responsibility to produce high quality articles and you cannot produce good articles by delegating responsibility to the user to determine whether something is valid and useful. Your example is misleading in that in reproducing it without comment it gains implicit approval. Spenny 17:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You say: "you cannot produce good articles by delegating responsibility to the user to determine whether something is valid and useful". I'm actually agreeing with you above: Wikipedia should be reproducing without comment, because adding our own comments violates WP:NOR - and also produces an online encyclopedia where 90% of all statements of fact are completely unsourced. My point above is, anything contentious A) should be sourced, and B) should be reported honestly - not by asserting the contentious fact, but only asserting that the source given asserted that contentious fact. (And even the article's assertion that the fact is "contentious" should be externally sourced and not just something asserted by an editor). That's what I meant by "journalistic", above. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 14:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

My underlying principle is that when we edit we should be knowledgeable and it is not enough to copy sources but we should be using our knowledge and intelligence to use appropriate sources and we should not be seeking to absolve editors of using judgement. I think the issue is not about balance, it is not presenting a point of view, it is avoiding presenting wrong information. So my comment was meant to convey that if you use less reliable sources without comment, you are falling into an unnecessary application of "verifiability not truth" (a foolish principle in my book). That should be the last resort as we should be aiming for verifiability and truth. Spenny 17:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

We tell people "verifiability not truth" without getting into epistemology the same way teachers tell their students that the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees without getting into Non-Euclidean geometry. WAS 4.250 20:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

And - as far as NOR is concerned - we ought to be telling people "stick to the sources" without getting into what constitutes "sources." Let us not confuse - or undermine - one policy with another. -- Fullstop 17:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Persecution

On many "Persecution of _____" articles, the following is common trend. Some wikipedian, looks up the definition of persecution and using that definition in combination with news reports to judge that a particular incident is an example of persecution.

For example (without pointing to any specific religion), a user concludes the following: "because persecution may be defined as the confiscation of property,^{reference to a dictionary} and because the police of country A seized the property of a person who belonged to religion B,^{reference to a news report} A is persecuting B".

Is it permissible to do this under WP:SYNTH?Bless sins 11:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a great believer in the WP:SYNTH being that helpful as an explanation of policy. Rather this sounds like original research, inventing a premise and supporting it with a collection of partial citations. The real test is whether the concept as a whole has been presented in a similar way elsewhere. If not, then it contravenes NOR. If it has, then we still need to consider whether the use of such an argument falls within the scope of writing from a neutral point of view. With synthesis, you still get into the debate about whether what you are stating is an obvious and logical conclusion of those two facts, but in principle it sounds like you have a typical synthesis.

We've been working on the text of the policy: read the first couple of paragraphs under "Sources" on the policy page and tell me if that gives you the steer as to whether it is acceptable. Spenny 14:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

For Wikipedia to claim in a title or category or section heading or even in a sentence that so and so was persecuted, there must be a published reliable source that says that using that word. English has many words, each with subtle differences in meaning. If there is not even one published reliable source that uses a word, we should not either. Now once you have such a source, then the door opens up to including other published reliable sources that discuss elements or aspects of persecution such as confiscation of property so long as you can document that those are indeed aspects or elements and those elements are related to the subject of the article. But you can stretch this too far and it is within editorial discretion to insist a connection that can be documented should not for some reason such as context, relevance, importance, and all those other things that go into good neutral writing. WAS 4.250 18:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing, verifiability, and synth don't really apply to titles and headings. We can't footnote them. I think it's just a style guideline issue of what things should be called. The title should be the subject of the article, and the heading should be the subject of the sentence. Inserting editorial comments into the title or headings is just incorrect. If something is inapt, unfounded, POV-ish, etc., just change it, talk about it, propose a move, etc. Overall, I would say that "Persecution" is too loaded a word to use, even if true, in most any article. But perhaps there are a few reasonable examples, like persecution of gays or Jews, where one could construct a valid article devoted to that subject specifically throughout history. But where persecution is just a way to characterize an event, it's too POV. Also, there's often a more precise way to say it. So, for example, countercultural people and communists were not persecuted (that might be true but that's not the precise issue) in the McCarthy era, they were blacklisted. Wikidemo 20:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually "persecution" is an understatement for what the United States has done and continues to do with regard to organized efforts to promote communism. We literally and rightfully waged a "cold war" against them that included several hot wars. We warred against communism. Same as we are righteously warring against violent radical Islam right now in self-defense. WAS 4.250 22:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

If you're trying to defend McCarthyism as "righteous", you've lost me. Regarding the "evil empire" in Russia and the dangers of religious radicalism (most would not confine that to the Muslim faith), you and I may believe that but we still have to use neutral and precise language, no? A "war" is certainly more deadly than mere "persecution" (usually), but the other difference is that war is an objective term with a neutral meaning. Not so persecution. So we simply try to say what happened as best we can and let the reader make their own value judgments. Wikidemo 22:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

McCarthyism was not a legitimate part of the war on our communist enemies. Just as many of Bush's actions are not a legitimate part of war on those who organize with the purpose of destroying "the west". We do have to use neutral and precise language in words that we chose when summarizing but should repeat the exact language of our sources when making a specific sourced claim. If our source says "persecuted" then it is misrepresenting the source to tone it down. WAS 4.250 23:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

And that last bit is, of course, the key... as long as it is indeed the sources that use words like "persecuted" ... and not our editors who are using those words, then we are not dealing with NOR. There might (or might not) still be an issue for NPOV, of course, but it isn't OR. Blueboar 18:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Catholicism and Freemasonry

I need a neutral party who understands the NOR policy to look at and comment on the above linked article, and to possibly act as a mediator. The article is contentious... it is also full of half substantiated POV "accusations" and "rebuttals" that I think too often cross the line into OR. Certain sections have serious SYNT problems (the typical situation being... A(Politician X did anti-clerical deed Y) + B (Politician X was a Freemason) = C (Freemasonry is responsible for anti-clerical deed Y) = C2 (Freemasonry is Anti-clerical). This problem is not just limited to the pro-church side of the coin... the Masonic rebuttals are sometimes just as OR. I have been calling for a complete re-write of the article for over a year now, attempting to find both POV balance and limiting the OR. I am not getting much support for this at the article. I could really use some back up on this. I am posting a similar request at WP:NPOV, since there are issues with that as well... if you know both policies, even better. Thanks in advance Blueboar 01:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right about the SYNT to a degree, except that as far as I can see the reasoning is actually A+B=C is believed by the RCC,=C2 is believed by the RCC. Neverthless, C and C2 will have to be independently sourced from Catholic writing. Relata refero 08:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The article definitely warrants a {{Original research}} tag. I didn't even get further than the first ref before running into a violation.

Text: The Church argues that Masonic philosophy discourages Christian dogmatism, and that it is anti-clerical in intent.^[1][2]

Note #1: In Latin countries, the lodges have often attracted freethinkers and anticlerical types; in Anglo-Saxon nations, membership has mostly been drawn from white Protestants (citations follow)

Note #2: "French Masonry and above all the Grand Orient of France has displayed the most systematic activity as the dominating political element in the French 'Kulturkampf' since 1877" (cits follow)

This is not SYNthesis but outrageous OR nonetheless. Neither note backs up either of the two statements for which they are being ref'd.

A brief review of the other notes shows that majority of them belong inline (they might then make associated OR evident); an article with 144 references is almost certainly hiding OR with pseudo-refs, trusting that people will miss the relationship between note and text. Not NOR related, but a policy vio nonetheless is the preponderance of non-RSources. Quite remarkable for what is actually an academic subject.

-- Fullstop 18:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I think there are quite a few other policy violations. This is a fork from Christianity and Freemasonry, and I would suggest it is giving a small observation (albeit of import to a specialist group) a large amount of coverage - without addressing the what the issues are in the main article. I think there is a hint that the article struggles to put together a good lead - if you can write a good lead, then you might have an idea of what the underlying detail might need to address.

My suggestion would be to pick out the core of the issue that is specifically Catholic and get that in the main article in summary style. Then decide if there is anything worth expanding out into detail. To me however, (and having a vaguely Methodist background and a grandparent who was a Mason and a Methodist in a different era) it smacks of point of view warring rather than an encyclopaedic neutral view of a minor debate. It's about as academic as a Dan Brown novel.

Anyway, I'd be bold and suggest a delete/merge for the page as a starting point, followed by a sort out of the main article which is not that good either. Then, having got the framework right, there might be a case for forking out the Catholic area, if the subject warrants it. Spenny 19:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Much of the content seems to be perhaps not OR, but certainly unsourced. I actually am a Roman Catholic and much of the content reflects what I have previously heard regarding this matter from church bodies. The intelligent design article has 213 references because of the need to verify just about every statement made in the article, and I get the feeling that the same motivation may have been in place here. Having said that, "Sources of Catholic antagonism" could easily contain some OR, and definitely needs at least one citation. The structuring could use some definite work as well. It looks to me that the "Mexico" section is in particular dispute. Regarding that matter, and the talk page discussion, I note that there has recently been a statement from a Mexican Mason him/herself added to the talk page which seems to substantiate much of the current content. I wish that rather extensive quote were specifically referenced, but I imagine that the editor who posted it has one available. Otherwise, though, there was a serious degree of paranoia about "secret societies" in the western world in the 18th-early 20th centuries, and it seems to me, based on the evidence available, that much/most of the content which I myself might question as being completely objective and accurate is probably verifiable at least in so far as the people of the time thought about the matter. I would acknowledge that the article needs some serious work, and it might very well be a good idea to introduce additional references to counterindicate some of the existing content, but from what I know of the subject it seems to me to basically adhere to the verifiable sources I already know of regarding the subject. Whether that makes it objective is another matter entirely. John Carter 19:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

As I see it (as someone who fits both sides in the underlying issue, since I was raised Catholic and am a Freemason), we have three levels of "claims"... there is the fact that the Church is opposed to Freemasonry, and states that joining it is a serious sin (citable to numerous Papal documents)... that is clearly not OR. Nor is it POV to discuss this, so long as it is clear that this is the Church's view of the issue. Then there is the official "reasons why" the church holds these views... Most of this seems to be reliably sourced to various Catholic theologians and Papal documents... although some of it is referenced to the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, which is out dated even for the Church view on things. However, I do see some "selective" quotation going on. To me the article steps over the line in the latter half of the article, when it start into the historical stuff. This is where the OR seems to really be bad. These claims need attribution as well as stronger sourcing. I understand that many people believe these claims... but we need to make it clear exaclty who says what. Of course then there are the NPOV problems and weight issues. yikes. Blueboar 20:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

No real disagreements. I do note that I heard somewhere that the stance on Freemasonry in the US Catholic Church currently isn't quite as serious as it had been before, but I don't know if I can find a source to verify that. And the serious problem of the paranoia of the era mentioned by Voltaire, Disraeli, and others, could probably be specifically included as well, which as I remember extended into the early 20th century and Portugal. That would help verify that the claims were made. I can see a real quagmire about verifying the degree of involvement Freemasonry per se, as opposed to individual Freemasons, had in any of it, unfortunately. Certainly, a statement regarding the difficulties of proving "group" involvement there could be added, although I haven't a clue where to find something like that. With any luck, you as a member probably have more direct access to some information than I do, or at least knowledge of where to go looking for it. Maybe we could contact the Catholicism and Freemasonry projects directly, and possibly try to turn this into a collaboration of some group or other? John Carter 20:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

We now have a POV fork called Latin Freemasonry, which essentially copies much of the objectionable OR material from Catholicism and Freemasonry. The editor who created this (and was the major editor on the original page) does not seem to understand the magnitude of the OR situation here. I could use some help explaining it to him. He is a knit-picker who wants me to go through and list the OR point by point (presumably so he can argue why it isn't OR)... I just can't do that... the whole thing (even the title) is rife with OR. Blueboar 21:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Proposal for WP:PSTS

Proposed: User:Vassyana/NOR 002 as a replacement for WP:PSTS. There may be more that needs to be addressed, but there seems to be broad agreement that this is at least a move in the right direction. We can always address more issues after taking this step, but if we can agree this is a good move from the current language, lets do that and then focus on refining even further. I am posting a notice of this proposal to the policy village pump (again) and listing this as a policy RfC. If someone knows of another venue I should post in to make sure the community is aware, please let me know (or by all means post a notice yourself). Vassyana 08:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

This wording appears to have some virtues. I am just not in a position at this time to spend time on it. However, I do note that it says nothing about sources in science. I think you should ask the scientists on several WikiProjects what they think. --Bduke 10:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The draft is an improvement over what we have now, but it unnecessarily uses primary and secondary sources as defined terms, rather than explaining the sourcing issues in plain language. As the draft now acknowledges, primary and secondary are defined differently in different fields, and editors will naturally revert to their familiar definitions because of the law of primacy. This has lead to counterproductive arguments over what is primary vs. secondary which distract from the real question of what is OR vs. NOR. Dhaluza 14:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not disagree. I'd imagine the terminology and general language used would be one of the points covered after this step. There seems to be a lot of discussion over language and it's certainly worthwhile to explore. Vassyana 07:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I like this proposal very much. While Dhaluza has a point, the simple fact is that there is substantial support (if not full consensus) for including discussion about primary vs. secondary sources in this policy. It has become clear that a version that does not include such a discussion will never be accepted. Compromise must be made on both sides of that issue. One clear benefit of this proposal is that it places the discussion of primary vs. secondary in terms of OR vs. NOR (something that the current PSTS section does not do well). Blueboar 15:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Vassyana, Dhaluza, and Blueboar in that User:Vassyana/NOR 002 should replace for WP:PSTS. We should delay further proposed improvements for after that. As Blueboar pointed out, there is good evidence that this is the best compromise we are capable of reaching - and we have spent over six months on this. WAS 4.250 15:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• Agree This is far better than the current PSTS section, explaining things more clearly. Some tweaks will probably need to be added here and there as time progresses, but this proposed version is a major improvement. wbfergus ^Talk 17:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
• No way Shall I "blue pencil" it? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not a vote. "No way" provides no useful information other than that you think you own the page. WAS 4.250 05:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:STEAM yet again. Spenny 21:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There's one of the trolls, the other shouldn't be to far behind. wbfergus ^Talk 22:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Well... I'm not sure if WP:STEAM actually applies... as I think the proposal is a majority opinion and STEAM only applies to squashing minority opinions. But that is a quibble, I do agree that Jim should at least explain what the objection is. Blueboar 03:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Could you please provide something more constructive than a "no" without explanation? What is wrong with the proposal? Is it better or worse than the current language? Why? Vassyana 00:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Disagree. Vassyana's draft completely omits the most common form of accepted primary sourcing used on Wikipedia: descriptions of artistic works (such as plot summaries). I think it could be sustantially shortened as well, and as Dhaluza points out, made plainer. I'll put my money where my mouth is and offer some revisions within the next two days to demonstrate the kinds of changes I have in mind.--Father Goose 00:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly common, but also controversial. Rather than add more controversy to an already controversial section, that should be an issue tabled for further discussion. It is not a question of whether or not this proposal is perfectly correct. Rather, it is a question of whether or not this proposal is an improvement over the current language. Further revisions can always be addressed later. Is this proposal better, worse or equitable to the current language? Why? Vassyana 00:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Saying it could be better does not answer the question asked. This is a wiki. The process is incremental improvements - not freeze something a majority disagrees with until perfection is attained in a proposed replacement. More people like the replacement than like what we have now. Let's get back to normal non-ownership style editing. That is what made wikipedia great in the first place. WAS 4.250 05:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It's worse than the current language by completely omitting this critical point. Whether or not some people oppose such sourcing, it is absolutely necessary to use it in certain limited circumstances. If this is not made explicit, people will purge such information as "unverifiable" (though it is verifiable), and huge holes will form in Wikipedia, particularly in our coverage of creative works. This is one point that cannot be glossed over or avoided.

As for "saying it could be better" -- like I said, I'll offer some revisions to make explicit what I feel needs to be changed.--Father Goose 06:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Because the proposal omits a "critical point", that is not in the current language, the draft is worse than the current language? That makes no sense. If you want to include such language, we can always address that controversial topic separately. What makes this proposal worse, other than the absence of additional proposed language? Vassyana 07:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I would additionally point out that the draft acknowledges that "there is a broad consensus for widespread use of some primary sources", with census data and interviews as examples. It uses two clear and noncontroversial examples. If someone would want to assert that a particular use of primary sources has broad consensus, it would be up to them to defend that assertion (like any other time someone declares consensus). Vassyana 07:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with the edit (though I don't fully agree with the draft). I think the edit would be a step in the right direction. I don't think we really need to listen to editors who say "I oppose draft X because it does not contain controversial language or theory Y". That's not a valid objection, and such statements do not annul consensus. I hear and agree with Dhaluza's statements above, but I'm willing to go with a draft that is less controversial than the current one, rather than insisting at this point that the expression of the policy have no controversy. (Eventually, all significant controversy must be eliminated, of course; otherwise, it's not a true consensus policy article.)COGDEN 00:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You're free to disagree with others' views, but saying "we do not need to listen to them" does not lead discussion in a constructive direction.--Father Goose 07:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Weakly agree. It is barely any different, only slightly better in some ways. I do prefer “raw facts” in the lead of the primary source definition. I don’t approve of the mention of “A secondary source” before its definition. There are many more than “some occasions” where primary sources prove useful. The biggest benefit of agreeing is that it encourages further efforts. --SmokeyJoe 05:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Some improvement is better than none after the long period of disagreement. I agree that more improvement is necessary, but one step at a time. :) Vassyana 07:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. The first paragraph of the proposal is unnecessary and confuses the issues needlessly, IMO. The WP usage already closely tracks the usage of PSTS in library and information science. I adjusted the footnote so it reads accordingly here.
  ...... The proposed presentation also, IMO, gets bogged down in explanations that are perhaps best put into one or more additional footnotes to supplement existing basic material in PSTS rather than attempt to replace it.
  ...... I do see some merit in the passage explaining that a given source might be primary in one application but secondary in some other context. Perhaps this would be useful in a footnote as well. If it were concise enough (say, one sentence or two short sentences at most), I'd support its inclusion in the body text of the policy page. ... Kenosis 16:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much Kenosis. It is productive and constructive and positive to add parts of the proposal to footnotes in the current version. At this point I approve of any movement forward no matter how small. While one way of looking at it might be to see it as an attempt to see how little of the proposal can be added; I think it is better viewed as part of the beginning of a series of constructive incremental steps to improve the policy in ways corresponding to conclusions reached in a debate in which for over six months almost all discussion participants had a similar problem with the current PSTS section. WAS 4.250 17:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This is something that has been covered multiple times in discussion. Even within library science, there are various definitions. Another common information science definition is that primary sources are simply materials that make original assertions or provide original material. Another definition in the same discipline, is that primary sources are purely source materials; even secondary sources drawn upon in other secondary references are considered primary sources. I will not revert, but rather ask you to reconsider your edit as it amounts to cherry-picking a definition and is misleading in that it implies there is a unified definition in that field (which is patently false). Vassyana 17:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Misleading my foot. It is a general definition that is in fact fairly consistent across the field of library science, which is in turn very closely in keeping with WP's usage of PSTS. Specific interpretations of which sources belong precisely in which classification, with respect to a given topic, are no less specific or universally consistent than interpretations of WP:NPOV, WP:V or for that matter the rest of WP:NOR. They are all editorial policies that are defined case-by-case and article-by-article within a consensus process among those WP users participating in each particular article. ... Kenosis 19:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a world of difference between primary sources as purely source material and primary sources as the original source. How NOR is interpreted in local consensus is an entirely separate matter from the various (and conflicting) definitions of sources used within a particular discipline. It is misleading to present (or imply) a false fact, such as that the definition provided is universal to information science. It's even worse when the second reference explicitly lists some of the various definitions of primary sources, rather than presenting the field specific definition (as implied by the edit). The page explicitly aims to present an overview of how they are used and defined, not present the library science point of view. According to this glossary, primary sources are original works in the creative and informational sense, as opposed to the historical sense used by your first reference.[6] Another presents primary sources as the original source of information.[7] Another relates primary status to closeness to an event, or rather first-hand accounts are primary.[8] This one uses the definition equating primary sources with source material.[9] This one supports the historical sense used by your first reference.[10] It's pretty clear your presentation of a universal definition just doesn't wash. Vassyana 21:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've taken the incentive to replace the prior version of "Secondary sources" with Vassyana's version of "Secondary sources". Personally I feel sure that's the strongest part of the proposal, and does not substantively change or diminish the present expression of the policy. The prior text in secondary sources was not well written in it's latest incarnation, and the examples of the traffic accident simply wasn't very useful. The edit is here. ... Kenosis 19:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Before we make any changes, we really should allow time for people to discuss the proposal, for those active in the discussions to comment and for the request for comment to have a chance to draw outside opinions. I am going to revert the change for now, as the section is highly controversial and there's no rush. We can wait at least a few more days or a week to make sure there are no significant and well-founded objections. Vassyana 21:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Among the benefits of User:Vassyana/NOR 002 over current wording is that it avoids this entire argument over what is the "real" meaning of "primary source" and makes clear that we are using some real world usages as a springboard to craft a new related meaning that is useful and relevant in the context of evaluating the useage of sources as references for claims in wikipedia articles. WAS 4.250 19:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure, the expression of primary sources could use further discussion as well, so as to express it in a way that doesn't affect continuity of usage of the policy among those who've already taken it to heart across the wiki. For instance, the reason that original philosophical works and religious scripture are primary sources is that they are closest to the topic when the topic is the original philosophical work or the statements therein, or the original religious scripture or the statements therein, When the topic is whether the religious scripture accurately represents the historical information, as in the case of historical Jesus, then scripture might not be primary source and other artifacts may be primary sources instead. When the topic is Aristotle's ideas, Aristotle's works are primary sources. If the topic is Plato's or Socrates' ideas as talked about by Aristotle, then Aristotle's works are secondary. It depends on the topic and on the discussion among editors at a given article who are negotiating the content in the context of NOR. ... Kenosis 19:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment - The Matrix Online

I have been involved in an edit war over certain parts of the article within The Matrix Online and the particular debatable subject is regarding complaints within the entire population of The Matrix Online. The Matrix Online, ever since the Sony Online Entertainment takeover in September 2005 has been under questionable management for some time, and a number of issues have arisen especially with subjects like the Live Events Special Interest Group, questioning an SOE employmee's competence after months of silence from this particular employee's silence over game developments, as well as questionable moderation conduct by player moderators, some which include deleting legitimate questions and complaints alike, as well as banning said players over such problems.

Article Dibol has written and constantly reverted by Oni Ookami Alfador.

Among other criticisms, the player community has consistently criticized the fact that unlike most of the SOE-controlled online games, the Matrix Online has been given the short end of the stick especially with little to no publicity, the handling of the Buddy Key program [11], questioning Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki's competence in carrying out his position as a Community Relations Manager shortly after Daniel "Walrus" Myers's disappearance as Myers was assigned to produce The Agency [12] [13] [14], slow responses to LESIG-related complaints with inactive liaison officers [15], [16], [17], as well as legitimate complaints and questions being frequently deleted by player forum moderators on Data Node 1 [18] [19] [20], as well as issuing perma-bans on said players for writing out such complaints under the charge of "excessive negativity" [21]. As a result, a player has emailed Courtney Simmons, the Director of Corporate Communications and Public Relations to bring the current problems to light [22]

Sources are cited and one could argue it's not original research, but there's one problem, "It's only given from message boards, and therefore unless a publication is given, it must be deleted." I am one of the players of The Matrix Online, and have joined the game since April 2005. I am one of those players fed up with the recent issues and could verify that these complaints are true, and the truth of the matter is that not one news source will be able to follow up on it because said reporter doesn't know the entire story, much less the state the game is in. The fact of the matter is that the game as a whole is generally obscure to the public, and that no one within Sony Online Entertainment, even the developers of the game would be willing or able to come forward and state their side of the story therefore little to no news coverage regarding the complaints the player community is having and sweeping it under the rug. On top of this, no gaming publishing site has ever seen this type of problem because said gaming publications have never covered the game as much as the entire playerbase. Dibol 06:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

My view is that this is the world of popular culture and different rules apply: you are not going to get learned journals or theses written on these subjects. There is an argument on notability, (should the article really be here?), but given that it is and it is notable for some people, we need to understand how we can sensibly work with Wiki policy in this style of article with the likely sources.

Are the sources as good as you are going to get? Have you attempted to be as neutral and fair as possible? I think you do have a problem in justifying it against NOR because you have examples of problems, but no one telling the story of all the problems.

So, is this a case of Ignore All Rules? I'm sympathetic to the view that Wikipedia has the space to be tolerant of the specialist articles and hasn't really got rules that work well with these popular culture issues. I think therefore, that as long as the article qualifies for inclusion, then you need to be flexible in the application of policy.

There is a specific issue you need to be careful of. If you are essentially publishing original claims that there is a problem with the product or the way it is handled, then you ought to have high quality evidence published elsewhere. Wikipedia should not be put in the position of having to handle claims against Sony for publishing defamatory comments, so the reverter does actually have a good point. It is unhelpful to express things simply in terms of policy if you do not give the reasoning behind why the policy is needed. Spenny 10:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Dibol, I am concerned about your statement "The fact of the matter is that the game as a whole is generally obscure to the public"... this makes me question whether the game is actually all that notable, even in the gaming community. If we accept that it is notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia, then we face the RS issue: there are all sorts of reliably published magazines and websites that cover gaming news. If these complaints have not been discussed in any of them, I have to wonder whether the complaints are really notable enough to discuss in the article. Ian has a point about it being OR without any media coverage. I think you are better served by drawing attention to the problems with Matrix Online in the industry media... then you would have reliable sources to cite in the article. Blueboar 14:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

If the subject is notable then some reliable sources will cover it. Gaming and entertainment are important industries and vetted publications cover important developments. Durova^Charge! 19:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)