User talk:M. Dingemanse

Welcome to my Talk page.

If you post a message I will usually reply on this page to avoid fragmenting the discussion.
If I have left you a message I will be watching so you can reply on your talk page if you wish.
I dislike having my Talk page spammed with impersonal multi-user messages.

EDIT

My talk archives

• Archive 1 (back to August 2004)
• Archive 2 (October - December 2004)
• Archive 3 (January - February 2005)
• Archive 4 (March 2005)
• Archive 5 (April - May 2005)
• Archive 6 (June 2005)
• Archive 7 (July - August 2005)
• Archive 8 (September - October 2005)
• Archive 9 (November - December 2005)
• Archive 10 (January - February 2006)
• Archive 11 (March - April 2006)
• Archive 12 (May - August 2006)
• Archive 13 (September - October 2006)
• Archive 14 (November 2006 - January 2007)
• Archive 15 (February 2007 - onward)

---

RfA Thanks

Thank you for your support in my recent RfA nomination. I appreciate the vote of confidence you have provided me. --Allen3 ^talk July 1, 2005 14:23 (UTC)

Not at all! I know you will be a fine admin. Congratulations! — mark ✎

No watchlist updates?

Mark; You are knowledgeable about Wikipedia and helpful. Can you tell me why my watchlist is not being updated with others' edits of the articles I've marked as "watch this"? Zyzzy 2 July 2005 15:51 (UTC)Zyzzy If you prefer, you can e-mail me at rjstern@utdallas.edu Also, why is my text coming out in this strange dashed box?

• replied over there — mark ✎ 2 July 2005 19:53 (UTC)

google map

I simply love google maps. I can spend hours looking for trails in Mongolia and stuff. I actually gave the link to where I work, I live a tad further north, [1]. regards, dab (ᛏ) 3 July 2005 12:15 (UTC)

thanks!

Hi Mark, thanks for your support of my RfA. I appreciate the vote of confidence and positive feedback, and will do my best with my new powers! --Spangineer (háblame) July 4, 2005 04:01 (UTC)

Arabic, etc. transliteration

Hey Mark! Another question, since you've been so helpful so far: (it's good not to bite the newbies, but it may also be dangerous to feed them...)

An issue that keeps coming up for me in West African articles is the proper transliteration of the names (Arabic, Bambara, Fula, etc.) into English; for example El Hadj Umar Tall appeared in over a dozen forms in as many different articles. I don't have any strong opinions about how these names should be represented in English, but the variations make it difficult to get the articles linked up properly; I also want to make sure that no one else is going to have to take the time to go through and fix these later. For all that I'm aware that "Wikipedia is not consistent," is there an established policy on transliterating foreign names, a scholarly consensus, or a particular style guide you yourself would recommend? I'm not thinking of going through and trying to change them all (tho I redirect where I can), just curious what I should use for new articles. So far I'm mostly going with Google majority view when I can determine it. Mercy beaucoup, --Dvyost 7 July 2005 19:46 (UTC)

The last one is the best in most cases, as Wikipedia policy is to use the most common variant as article title. Furthermore, redirects are good, as they say; make redirects for all reasonably frequent spellings (not for frequent misspellings). As for transliteration, I'm not aware of a grand policy covering it. You can find some individual examples in our Naming conventions though. Sorry I can't be of much help this time :). Àkpé mélì ò, — mark ✎ 7 July 2005 20:58 (UTC)

That's lots of help actually. I'll just carry on throwing about diacritics as I see fit. =) Thanks!

--D'vyôst 7 July 2005 17:43 (UTC)

Language family naming conventions

That's fine; my mistake. I may have moved one or two other language families in the same way in the last couple of hours. . . – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} July 7, 2005 20:37 (UTC)

• replied over there. — mark ✎ 7 July 2005 20:51 (UTC)

Lumasaaba?

I raided the linguistic section of the SU library before they went on vacation and wound up with Phonological Rules and Dialect Variation - A Study of the Phonology of Lumasaaba by Gillian Brown, but now I'm confused. The book classifies Lumasabaa (Lugisu) as a Bantu language, but that seems no longer to be the case. I was intending to improve it, but now I mistrust the book somewhat. Who reclassified it and why?

I also got a hold of A Comparitive Study in Shona Phonetics (1931) by Clement M. Doke. It has very interesting material on various dialects. Plenty of isogloss maps, photos of lip rounding, conjugation tables, the works! Would it be fairly accurate despite the age? Which dialect became the most prestigious to be accepted as the standard language?

Peter ^Isotalo 8 July 2005 15:57 (UTC)

Surely Lumasaba (the English name would be Masaba as the noun class prefix is dropped) is a Bantu language. It is spoken in the Mount Elgon area and it's a close relative of the Luhya languages of Kenya (the Masaba are even mentioned over at Bukusu language as speakers of a Bukusu dialect, which may be taking things too far).

C.M. Doke was a very good and thorough linguist. I haven't checked out the book, but you can expect the phonetic transcription to be very accurate, except probably for the tone. Shona is a two-tone language, but I think 1931 is a little too early for a full-blown treatment of the tonal system.

It's funny that you mention the standardization issue. Doke was a South-African linguist who was brought in to resolve conflics about the orthography of Shona (1931 was also the year of the 'Doke Commission Report'). He devised a unified orthography based on the Zezuru, Karanga and Manyika dialects. However, Chimbundu (1992) points out that the language policy of the Christian denominations in the area was an important factor in the choice for this three dialects. Doke's orthography was never fully accepted and the South African government introduced an alternative, leading to Shona having two orthographies side by side for the period of 1935-1955. Some relevant sources:

• Brauner, Siegmund (1995) A grammatical sketch of Shona: including historical notes. Köln: Rüdiger Köppe Verlag.
• Chimbundu, Herbert (1992) 'Early missionaries and the ethnolinguistic factor during the 'invention of tribalism' in Zimbabwe', The Journal of African History, 33, 1, 87–109.
• Doke, C.M. (1931) 'Report on the unification of the Shona dialects'
• Fortune, George (1993) 'The contribution of C. M. Doke to written Shona', African Studies, 52, 2, 103-129. — mark ✎ 8 July 2005 23:04 (UTC)

As it happens, I've been playing around with the C. M. Doke article this very night (via colloborator Benedict Wallet Vilakazi). Since he's only got a sad little stub, I've cut-and-pasted a modified version of the above into his article. If either of you would care to correct my inevitable mistakes you are, as always, welcome. --Dvyost 9 July 2005 03:58 (UTC)

Well, the main problem is that we don't know how notable that event is in his in relation to the rest of his life and career. Sure, the fact that he was asked to resolve the conflicts says something about his status (they called him 'the father of South-African linguistics'). But I'm not sure if Chimbundu's (1992) analysis is important enough to be mentioned here. And actually, his 1931 'A Comparative Study...' was only one part of the Doke Commission Report and I don't think he would let policies influence his linguistic description. The publication you're looking for is 'Report on the unification of the Shona dialects' (1931), which establishes the above three dialects as 'central' ones. I don't have the time right now to add this to the article, gotta go! — mark ✎ 9 July 2005 06:41 (UTC)

Pulled the Chimbundu ref, leaving the rest despite possible non-notability for a future editor to decide on; it shows up on one or two other bibliographies online, so for now it's probably better than the stub he was. Thanks for the help! --Dvyost 9 July 2005 16:28 (UTC)

Algerian Civil War

As a major contributer to the article's pictorial component, I thought you might be interested to know that I finally put it up for FAC: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Algerian Civil War. - Mustafaa 9 July 2005 00:40 (UTC)

Featured Picture candidate

I nominated you senufo languages map for featured .. :) Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Senufo languages

(posted by Alexandre Van de Sande)

Thank you for the high praise. I wonder how it will fare! — mark ✎ 9 July 2005 06:41 (UTC)

Hutu

Apols for not looking at the problem with that Hutu post, I've not been well recently. To be honest, I wouldn't have been able to de-POV (without just deleting sections) it as I don't know enough detail on the Hutu/Tutsi situation. Cheers! TreveX^talk 9 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

Maya Heiroglyphics

I am attempting to make some needed changes to the article on Maya Heiroglyphics, but notice you immediately changed my text. Please explain why.

posted by GDSmith (talk · contribs)

Hi, thanks for registering, and welcome to Wikipedia. I have replied on your talk page. — mark ✎ 21:17, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments.

I have made a few changes in the past without setting up an account, and in fact wrote one article, which it now says needs to be "Wikified" How do I do that?

Regards,

Dee Smith

• replied over there. — mark ✎ 22:02, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Mark: Dee Smith again. I have "Wikified" the article I posted earlier, before I realized I needed to or could set up an account (or at least, I think I have). If you could check it to see if it is properly formatted, I would apprecaite it. The article is on "InterCultura" (althought the title does not capitalize the "C" inside the work, and I don't know how to change it). Also, how do you bold type (I didn't see this covered in the "how to edit" page)?

Thanks,

Dee Smith

• replied over there. — mark ✎ 19:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Mark:

Thanks for your help. I will continue to update the InterCultura page as I have time. There is more to say, but unfortunately I have limited time like all of us. I see you added a link and I can add more. I can also add some visuals, which I may need your help on.

As you probably saw I also made extensive edits to the Maya Heiroglyphics page. Also, I read the "debate" on your discssion page (or was it the Hieroglyphics discussion page?) between you and the other contributor on "African" and other fringe ideas, and it will be interesting if he changes my contribution. You are entirely right, by the way, there is utterly no evidence of African or any other Old World influence on the Maya or other pre-Columbian cultures. In terms of the oft-made argument that the "African" features of Olmec sculpture have to be explained: I would encourage anyone interested to actually visit the state of Tabasco in Mexico, the heartland of the Olmec culture area (and, with the neighboring state of Veracruz, where the big stone heads are found). There are people there today, members of Indian groups, who still look like that - 3,000 years later! And when one sees them, one has to agree that they are decidedly not African!

The interesting thing is that there HAS been a real debate in the world of Maya decipherment, but it is about real issues and involves serious scholars and ideas. I have tried to outline a bit of that in what I wrote. Others no doubt know more than I do, although I knew and know an number of these players myself. Like you, I would welcome serious changes and contributions, but would abhor having to deal with silly, nonsensical, fringe issues. I am new to the Wikipedia community - is this much of an ongoing problem? I can certainly see that it might be.

By the way, on the subject of J. Eric Thompson, I knew Linda Schele, who died of cancer in 1998, very well indeed, and she described in detail a long lunch she had with Thompson (at San Angel Inn in Mexico City - if you know the place, you can imagine the setting!). She was of course his nemesis in the field (and vice-versa), but she said it was a very pleasant lunch and he was nothing but a gentleman througout, as well as in her other dealings with him - although he utterly disagreed with her. He could write critiques with sharp barbs, but there is nothing wrong with that! He did dominate the field, and there is some truth to the idea that he suppressed or at least delayed progress in decipherment. But this was because of his prestige, not because he was some kind of a monster (and that often happens in scientific fields - we all know about Kuhn, etc.).

There was a time when people could disagree - even disagree violently - in science, art, politics, religion, etc., and still be civil in their personal discourse...and even still be very good friends. It is a pity that does not seem to the be much the case any more.

Regards,

Dee

Whoah, that's a lot of information. I'm going to respond briefly because I've not much time right now. First of all, you've shaped up Maya hieroglyphics nicely! As for the danger of fringe theorists — Wikipedia is relatively safe from them because it has quite a few policies and guidelines that watch over Wikipedia's reliability and trustworthyness: Cite your sources, Check your facts, Verifiability, Reliable sources, No original research, and Importance. Incidentally, did you notice my comments on Talk:InterCultura? Keep up the good work! — mark ✎ 21:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Gbe congrats

Nice work on your image and edits there--fine (and useful) stuff!

And that goes double now that I realize you were Strangeloop in disguise...

--Dvyost 15:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I almost forgot myself... Concragutlations! A fine FA indeed.

Peter ^Isotalo 17:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks guys! — mark ✎ 21:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Shilgin Guinea

Wikipedia:Reference_desk#A_Shilgin_Guinea - one for you? - Mustafaa 19:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Peace Dove

To all participants of the WikiProject Kindness Campaign: There is a proposal on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kindness Campaign for the Peace Dove. Please comment as you see fit. Thanks, Sango123 16:15, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

did you know suggestion

i followed your suggestion to make a Did You Know for endangered langs (St'at'imcets language). not sure how interesting this is but they excepted it at any rate. thank you for your suggestion. peace – ishwar  (speak) 16:13, 2005 July 19 (UTC)

A request

Mark, please do not write commentary to IP addresses as if they are user accounts anymore, and most especially do not talk to them in a personal tone. For a moment I thought I was being criticized and that my contributions' validity was being challenged, only after a while to realize that you were attempting to talk to a user named Roylee, and that you'd managed to get one of the dialup IP addresses of the third largest ISP on Earth, instead.

User_talk:4.241.218.127 shows why talking to an IP address with pronouns like "you" can be intensely confusing and ill-advised.

Also, it would be quite helpful if, when you say things to the effect that submissions are not of acceptable quality, you would go as far as to name the submissions in question. Some people write an extensive amount of material, and might not know offhand to which one or two of their potentially hundreds of contributions you are referring. (Besides, that'd help people who think you're yelling at them realize you're not actually yelling at them more quickly.)