Talk:Hedvig Malina

Political prisoners and victims

What is the justification for this category? I can't see anything. She hasn't been in prison, nor is she involved in politics, nor prosecuted or harassed for her political stances.
There isn't a single (reliable) reference outside Wikipedia and its clones using that label either
This is a dangerous precedence because this article makes Wikipedia an original source of facts, which is against its core policies.
For the record: when the category was removed, certain editors inserted it back without any evidence.--Svetovid (talk) 11:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Answer:

• She was allegedly beaten by Slovak Neonazis for speaking Hungarian (minorities' situation in post-Trianon countries, Ján Slota's right wing party in the Slovak government etc.)
• Robert Fico, Prime Minister of Slovakia allegedly abused his power looking into the documents of the investigation, making unacceptable (and early) remarks about the victim (his unwanted political pressure shown in a recent other case)
• Robert Kalinák similarly getting involved in the case
• she became a key figure in diplomatic tensions between two EU countries

I think these points make her a political victim. But I'm also open to new category suggestions. Squash Racket (talk) 06:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree with Svetovid. It's doesn't look she 'personally' was a political prisoner. She may be a pawn used by politicians but that doesn't make her a prisoner. Again, she was beaten for 'speaking Hungarian', but in the end, she was a student. Was she doing something that would make it look like they targeted for any reason other than speaking Hungarian? It seems like a case of racial or ethnic hatred than political. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, but this article only belongs in this single one category? As I said I'm also open to suggestions. Squash Racket (talk) 06:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I would suggest a title change first. The article isn't so much about Malina but about the attack itself. See for example Disappearance of Madeleine McCann, so once that makes sense, then categories make more sense. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Title change was suggested first as early as January to "Hedvig Malina case" in the Afd, but with editors unclear on the pro and contra sort of precedent was searched for and Rodney King was brought up which article also mainly about the case but named after the person. One question is if the BLP policy would still protect the article under new name, with the current title it clearly does that's something to consider. There is some discussion on this in the talk page archive also. Hobartimus (talk) 19:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

To say something about the categories, we should find some new ones to replace the removed category. Someone who knows the category system should do this. Hobartimus (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course BLP would still apply. You are talking about a living person Malina, and accusations about living people including the Prime Minister of a country. Remember that the BLP situation itself came from a single sentence that mentioned that person's name. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Start of the political involvement

I removed the clause "At first, nearly all Slovakian political parties distanced themselves from the case" from the attack section. There really isn't a reason to say that the parties "distanced" themselves. It's not like every attack should have an immediate response from political parties. Now, I don't know Hungarian but could someone fill out more of what the Slovak National Party was doing with the story. Did they encourage it by claiming sympathy, try to claim something else, have some links? The more specific, the better. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It may be unusual, but the source contains the sentence you deleted word by word, but states no more than that about what SNS said. I think the political parties "distanced themselves" from the alleged Neonazi hate crime. What is POV on that? They just don't agree with it, while SNS remained silent. All political parties voiced their concerns except for the one right wing party, a member of the government coalition. Squash Racket (talk) 07:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it was in the source. I guess I misunderstood how quickly the press picked up the political implications. I thought it might have been more of a "attack that's sort of ignored, one party makes a big deal, nobody else comments, then everyone has to comment." Besides, what does it mean to "distance yourself" from a hate crime? Did they just say "no comment"? Did they express sympathy? Did they express remorse? Did they ignore it, playing the old "wait until the police get all the facts" bit? I mean, there are many ways to deal with an alleged hate crime. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It means condemning the alleged hate crime. You are right, it probably needs to be changed in the text. So all political parties condemned the alleged incident except for SNS, the right wing member of the government, they remained silent. Squash Racket (talk) 05:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Now, THAT makes sense. Good to see. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

"Distancing yourselves from a case" is a Hunglish phrase. These are so natural to us that they are the most difficult to spot. Squash Racket (talk) 11:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Details of the attack and Malina's movements

The article needs a lot more details about the attack itself. When exactly did Malina speak with Kubla? Did he report her in November 2006 or May 2007? When was the suicide and was it related? Otherwise, it's just random gossip. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they ever spoke with each other, he just reported her. The police didn't publish the suicide note, so it is not sure the suicide was related to the case. Source says according to his boss he was anti-Hungarian. He committed the suicide about two weeks before before the first court hearing. Squash Racket (talk) 07:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I misunderstood how the legal system worked. The rest seems clear now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Handwriting details

I removed the unsourced statements about the handwriting analysis because they need sources. Along with the typical procedures, WP:BLP applies as well since these are living people being accused. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I reinserted the slightly modified part and added sources for both sentences. Squash Racket (talk) 07:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

March developements

Vladimír Palko, minister of the previous Slovak government, current opposition politician commented on the 2006 press conference alleging that government officials lied in an attempt to discredit Hedvig Malina. Quite a few things were said by him (it was a televised debate), but it was significant as this was the first time a prominent Slovak politician made statements that can be considered supportive of Hedvig Malina. I'll translate some direct quotes if needed. A few sources on this ; [1] [2] [3] [4] Hobartimus (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Robert Kaliňák, Slovakian deputy prime minister and minister of the interior, declared that none of Malina's claims could be confirmed. Her mobile network operator did not record any call on the day in question." this is the part from the article to which Vladimír Palko refers to. He claims Kaliňák lied and misquoted Malina's statements then proceeded to prove these misquoted statements false. Hobartimus (talk) 05:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The name

As showed, not a single source in English that is not of Hungarian origin uses the Hungarian version. Of course, her legal name and the name she uses/used (she now changed her surname to another Slovak name) was Hedviga Malinová.
The dispute is obvious and it's here only because certain editors try to use the Hungarian version of the name for some reason. It may be a coincidence that the same editors try to use Hungarian versions of Slovak names as the main names in other articles too.--Svetovid (talk) 22:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia. In any case any dispute about the name has nothing to do with the factual accuracy of the article so puting up such a tag as you did [5] is clearly unappropriate. If you have any issues actually relating to the "factual accuracy of the article" please bring them forward so we can attempt to resolve them (by bringing in more sources, tweaking etc). Hobartimus (talk) 23:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Should we look into deeply why ethnic Hungarians started "voluntarily renaming" themselves to Slovak?

After the proclamation of the Kosice program, the German and Hungarian population living in the reborn Czechoslovak state were subjected to various forms of persecution, including: expulsions, deportations, internments, peoples court procedures, citizenship revocations, property confiscation, condemnation to forced labour camps, involuntary changes of nationality and appointment of government managers to German and Hungarian owned businesses and farms, referred to euphemistically as “reslovakization.”

The external link Svetovid tried to delete at all cost and the simple fact that the official newspaper of the Hungarian minority in Slovakia (Új Szó) use the Hungarian form suggest that she actually uses the Hungarian version of her name of course, when there is no pressure from Slovak authorities/people involved. I think the naming issue itself wouldn't justify a template like that anyway.

Tom Lantos was born in Hungary, still his letter to Fico is an official letter from the US Congress. That's a fact. The International Herald Tribune though doesn't mention Malina's name, constantly refers to Tom Lantos, so I just guess which form we could prefer based on that reference. Squash Racket (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I don't understand what is the issue. The Hungarian article call her by this name. The English citations don't mention her name. Svetovid, I see cite 10 calls her "Hedviga Malinová" so the Slovakian one also calls her that name. What do you suggest? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hedvig Malina is the Hungarian, Hedviga Malinová is the Slovak version, that's all. Actually the US Congress letter in English mentions her name (the Hungarian version) and the International Herald Tribune refers to Tom Lantos. Squash Racket (talk) 04:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a non-issue. This was already debated in the now archived section. The only reason why it was brought up again without any new reasoning or new information is to supply a 'dispute' so a tag can be placed on the whole article disputing "factual accuracy" completely unrelated to the naming isssue of course. I suggest not to feed this discussion and simply to remove the tag until genuine concerns arise really relating to "factual accuracy". Hobartimus (talk) 05:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"despising of the work of Slovak police"

I commented out "Packa said the attitude of Malina and her lawyer was "the despising of the work of Slovak police", and Kaliňák claimed that Gál was trying to make it into a political issue." per WP:BLP. Let's keep allegations about living people out until a source is provided. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)