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::::::I'm not qualified to answer your first two questions. Those would be better directed at Filll, who is more knowledgeable about her than I am. To answer your third question, there are two sentences in this article describing the fact that she signed the petition, and describing what it was. You want to remove the latter sentence, effectively cloaking the meaning, importance, and notability of that fact that she signed it. No, this is not an acceptable compromise. As I have already said - twice - the two sentences in this article are the *minimum* that this article should devote to the subject. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 16:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::I'm not qualified to answer your first two questions. Those would be better directed at Filll, who is more knowledgeable about her than I am. To answer your third question, there are two sentences in this article describing the fact that she signed the petition, and describing what it was. You want to remove the latter sentence, effectively cloaking the meaning, importance, and notability of that fact that she signed it. No, this is not an acceptable compromise. As I have already said - twice - the two sentences in this article are the *minimum* that this article should devote to the subject. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 16:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The "why it is significant part" should be directly associated with the person whose biography we are writing and remains a matter of editorial interpretation (see Fill's investigative essay above) unless it has been notably commented on and can be cited as such. There doesn't seem to be any such notability or at lest no one here seems to be offering any evidence of it. As such why can't we just say she signed it with a link to the full entry where there is ample discussion about petition itself? Some minor discriptor could be added as well. Something like this for instance: "In February 2006, the New York Times reported that Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers whose names appeared on the controversial '[[A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism]],' petition in support of [[Intelligent Design|intelligent design]]." In this example there we say it is controversial and that it relates to intelligent design. I'm still struggling to understand how a sentence about what the Discovery Institute has done with the petition belongs here and am still in hope that someone can explain that. Thanks.[[User:PelleSmith|PelleSmith]] ([[User talk:PelleSmith|talk]]) 16:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The "why it is significant part" should be directly associated with the person whose biography we are writing and remains a matter of editorial interpretation (see Fill's investigative essay above) unless it has been notably commented on and can be cited as such. There doesn't seem to be any such notability or at lest no one here seems to be offering any evidence of it. As such why can't we just say she signed it with a link to the full entry where there is ample discussion about petition itself? Some minor discriptor could be added as well. Something like this for instance: "In February 2006, the New York Times reported that Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers whose names appeared on the controversial '[[A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism]],' petition in support of [[Intelligent Design|intelligent design]]." In this example there we say it is controversial and that it relates to intelligent design. I'm still struggling to understand how a sentence about what the Discovery Institute has done with the petition belongs here and am still in hope that someone can explain that. Thanks.[[User:PelleSmith|PelleSmith]] ([[User talk:PelleSmith|talk]]) 16:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


Over the months, many many compromises have been attempted. I am telling you from experience, the compromises that involve whitewashing the endorsement of this petition will not work. The way to improve this biography is to '''IMPROVE THIS BIOGRAPHY'''. Is that so hard to understand? DO SOME WORK and add some material about her career in your own words if she is so notable and has had such a stellar important notable career putting smiling faces on computers. I will not continue to fight about this nonsense. If you want to have a better biography with more details here, then you have to write one. No one will write one for you or allow you to steal one from someone else. Also, we have plenty of other evidence that Picard supports the Discovery Institute and intelligent design and has an anti-evolution position. But in the interests of fairness and [[WP:BLP]], I do not suggest we smear this woman any more than necessary. Leave sleeping dogs lie. If she is prominent for other things, then go ahead and write about them. Let's not make this article a huge long discussion about how antiscience this woman is with all kinds of references to this activity of hers. Good lord...be reasonable. You want a better biography? Write one.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] ([[User talk:Filll|talk]]) 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:37, 5 May 2008


Getting a consensus

Progress... User_talk:Hrafn42#Forget_I_said_anything

Okay. Given it is a connection highlighted by the NYT article, it seems a comment pointing out that Picard is not a biologist, or that here field does not directly relate to evo-bio will not constitute OR.

However, it is still perceivably WP:SYNTH (IMHO, a textbook case) to relate this back to the failed appeal-to-authority value of A Scientific Dissent. Is consensus for or against the inclusion of this?

Previous text, which may or may not reflect final content:

[A Scientific Dissent] attempts to base its claim to truth on the credentials of its signatories, a logical fallacy known as an 'appeal to authority.' Where the 'authority' in question is venturing an opinion outside their field of expertise (as is the case with Picard), it is known as an 'appeal to false authority.' °context

I will be deleting any off-topic banter or trolling by any party, arguments have been presented numerous times by all parties involved, I don't think it really serves any purpose to continue.

For

  1. Hrafn42 04:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Against

  1. ZayZayEM 01:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. dave souza, talk 15:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Looking at the source[1] carefully, it seems to me that a sentence added after the first sentence in the existing paragraph could summarise the statement in a neutral way:

In February 2006, the New York Times reported that Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers, out of five hundred scientists and engineers, whose names appeared on the Discovery Institute's controversial petition, "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism". According to the Discovery Institute 254 of the signers held degrees in the biological sciences or biochemistry, leaving more than 350 nonbiologists including Dr. Picard. The two-sentence statement has been widely used by its sponsor, the Discovery Institute, and some of their supporters in a national campaign to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

I did try "The Times noted that more than 350 of the signers, including Dr. Picard, were nonbiologists.", but that seemed to be going a bit beyond the source. ... dave souza, talk 08:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't think you need to point out "The Times noted..." because it's not something only The Times would have seen. Any reporting body looking for it (which was most) would have noticed that 350 weren't actually biologists. Sources only need to be cited when something controversial comes up. We are citing The Times at the start, because we are establishing her signing as a encyclopedically significant fact.--ZayZayEM 01:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]



On June 29, 2006, Picard [IP 18.85.10.17] proposed this version...

Controversial Petition Signer
Recently, The New York Times reported that Dr. Picard signed the Dissent From Darwin Petition (see page 6 of the petition for her signature). This petition has received criticism since although all of the signers hold doctorates in science and engineering disciplines, only 154 of the 514 signers have biological science backgrounds.

On February 4, 2007, Picard [IP 18.85.10.10] proposed this version...

Controversial Petition Signer
Recently, The New York Times reported that Dr. Picard signed the Discovery Institute's Petition, "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" (see page 6 of the petition for her signature, which names the Massachusetts Institute of Technology as her affiliation).

--Moulton 10:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is no problem with drawing the conclusions that Chang did in the NYT, but in a brief abbreviated fashion. I have no problem with the blog as a reference, as long as we have a couple of other more RS sources if there are problems. I think she is not particularly notable, although she obviously gained notability from appearing in Chang's article.--Filll 01:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

Given that we appear to be at an impasse on gaining a consensus on disputed content in this article, and given that the non-disputed content is quite minimal, I would like to nominate that this article be merged into Affective computing. I make this nomination on the basis of WP:MERGE and specifically these two "good reasons":

2. Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
3. Text - If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic. For instance, parents or children of a celebrity that are otherwise unremarkable are generally covered in a section of the article on the celebrity, and can be merged there.

Picard is notable for little beyond the field of Affective Computing, so overlap should be obvious. Additionally, there seems little likelihood of much expansion of this article (none at all as long as it remains protected, but much debate for little or no gain even if it is unprotected again). There is quite frankly little further to be said about Picard that could not be better said on the article on Affective Computing.

This proposal will require getting the template {{mergeto|Affective computing|Talk:Affective computing#Merger proposal|{{subst:DATE}}}} inserted into this (protected) article. Unless anybody wishes to object to me making this proposal (as opposed to objecting to the merger itself), I will seek a {{editprotected}} to get it inserted (alternatively, if an admin wanders in & decides that this proposal is a reasonable one to make, they might insert the template without me having to go through channels). Once we get the template onto this article, I'll place the complementary template on Affective computing . Hrafn42 14:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Picard is notable for more than affective computing. Namely for being a signatory of Dissent. This information would have no relation to the affective computing page. That this article is not a stub (but still small) shows that two articles are favourable.--ZayZayEM 14:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:MERGE and point out where it lists notability as an impediment to merger, or where it makes any mention at all on whether or not an article is a stub. Hrafn42 15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion the disputed paragraph should be left out unless there's a consensus on the talk page to reintroduce it. My feeling is that she's just about notable enough for an article, but it's not a strong opinion. To allow discussions to progress I've unprotected the page, If edit warring ensues it will be reprotected. .. dave souza, talk 15:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My main point here there is material that is encyclopedically relevant to Picard that is not relevant to affective computing.--ZayZayEM 01:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Two of your arguments here are based on #1 "Picard is notable for little beyond the field of Affective Computing", so my counterclaim that this is false still stands and #2 "If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded", so my counterclaim that neither article is a stub (Rosalind Picard is at least start-class IMO) stands too. This is a really weird merge proposal IMHO.--ZayZayEM 01:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also think she is barely notable. I would favor summarizing the New York Times article that mentions her, in the least offensive manner possible, to avoid upsetting anyone. However, we should still include the material that lead to her being mentioned in that Chang article. Otherwise, why did Chang single her out? If she was an MIT biologist, I suspect Chang might have mentioned her still, but maybe in a very different context. The context in which she was mentioned is important, and merits inclusion. By us excluding this information, or trying to spin it in another way, we are engaging in OR. However, if we just use the same context Chang did, we are not violating WP:OR.--Filll 16:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not debating whether she is notable. I am debating whether there is significant non-overlapping notability beyond that of Affective Computing. If, as you appear to be conceding, she is "barely notable" to start with, and if there is, as I contend, a heavy overlap between her notability and that of Affective Computing, then the non-overlapping notability of Picard would be negligible, and not worthy of a separate article. Hrafn42 05:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support a merge/redirect, but for a different reason: this is not a proper biography by a long shot. But note that mentioning the ID poll will probably not satisfy Due Weight concerns in the Affective Computing article.

Nevertheless, it may be possible to find sufficient published information on Picard to expand this into a true bio; those in favor of keeping a separate biography may want to spend some time digging it up. Topics e.g. early life, pop. science publications/(media) appearances/talks given on Affective Computing, her religious beliefs. Avb 13:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ZayZayEM's recent accusation of WP:DISRUPT

  • It was ZayZayEM's insertion that introduced the figure of 254 into the article [2]. It was perfectly legitimate to remove this obviously contradictory sentence until the specific error could be identified & corrected.
  • Given ZayZayEM's very zealous enforcement of WP:NOR on previous matters, it is unreasonable of him to object to my seeking a similar enforcement on his edits, specifically his insertion of the unsupported adjective "emerging".
  • The List of signatories to "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" does not show "five hundred scientists and engineers", it only shows the 23 of them that somebody has gotten around to entering. As such this link is both confusing and misleading.

Hrafn42 06:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the word "emerging" does not belong here. It sounds ridiculous when applied to a subfield of computer science. This is even more true when used to describe something in computer technology.
The statements ZayZayEM has wanted to include about the petition and the numbers are either wrong, misleading, or confused.--Filll 12:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the error in mental maths – I can proudly claim to have failed my O-level arithmetic. Oops. Have now corrected the total number of signatories it from 500 to 514, which makes the "over 350 nonbiologists" work if needed. Sorry and all, .. dave souza, talk 22:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]


If I am not mistaken, some of those are biochemists, which are not the same as biologists. Certainly they are not experts in evolution. They just need classes in organic chemistry, and not biology or genetics etc.--Filll 23:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not caring too much anymore. I inserted the material about Picard being a non-biologist because consensus appeared to favour inclusion, and a source did actually point it out (if only someone had actually used this argument at the start). I am not accusing Hrafn of WP:DISRUPT, though it does seem that it seems certain parties seem to be having a "my way or the highway/all or nothing" attitude towards Picard's article. I'm quite happy to leave "emerging" out of the article if people feel it is overstepping the mark (noone actually commented as to why it was unreasonable to suggest). List of signatories to "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" is a relevant link, even if it doesn't actually list all 500 signatories (yet), perhaps it could be worded differently.--ZayZayEM 08:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Visitor from MIT IP

I've reverted an edit by IP# 18.85.44.145, location: United States [City: Boston, Massachusetts], owner: MIT

Apart from the fact that I feel such a change requires a consensus first, if only for WP:BLP reasons, this could be a sock or meat puppet trying to continue disrupting this article. Avb 14:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not only is it MIT, it's MIT Media Lab -- dhcp-44-145.media.mit.edu, so most likely Picard or an associate. Hrafn42TalkStalk 14:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the nature of the edit, I'd be very curious to know whether it was picard. ornis (t) 15:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Probably someone trying to generate more raw material for more juvenile stories about moulton's Wikipedia experience. Why don't these people understand this reflects badly on them in real life? Anyway, one more edit of this kind and we'd better request a moulton sock/meat puppet block. Avb 15:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, this edit in the opposite direction of the Moulton edits and the purported Picard anon edits. So it might be just someone trying to create controversy, or more material for Moulton and his blogs and/or experiments with the "journalism" culture and standards of WP, or it might be an associate of Picard and Moulton's who really secretly feels that Moulton and Picard are wrong, and resents their views and activities. It is too coincidental.--Filll 15:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Both the alleged Picard edits were 18.85.10.xx numbers[3][4] and, as Filll says, this new edit changes the heading to "Anti-evolution petition" which Steve and Moulton had been fighting against. .. dave souza, talk 16:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The edit created a situation that, if handled incorrectly, would reflect badly on Wikipedia. The assumption that the change might stick without a consensus seems based on an incorrect understanding of (and plain disbelief in) WP style consensus - both hallmarks of moulton's type of editing. By the way, has Picard herself ever contacted editors, or the Foundation directly? It beats anonymous IP editing and proxy editing by a friend who does not want to go with the flow and attacks the system. Avb 17:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Picard contacted me directly with a personal email, and promised to send me more information once she had investigated the situation further. I have not heard back from her, and it is more than 2 weeks after she had promised to get back to me.
It easily could be Moulton testing our NPOV principles and WP mechanisms, since he is writing articles about this, and would love to be able to hang us out to dry if we do not handle this situation "fairly".--Filll 18:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True. Well, we'll simply go on editing as usual. If Picard ever follows up on that promise, we may be able to do something for her, or once again explain why we can't. Avb 18:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Non-biologist

NYT does make a point of her being a non-biologist:

The Discovery Institute says 128 signers hold degrees in the biological sciences and 26 in biochemistry. That leaves more than 350 nonbiologists, including Dr. Tour, Dr. Picard and Dr. Skell.

350> vs 128 is majority, so I don't think it is too bad to say that Picard is one amongst the majority of nonbiologists who signed the petition.--ZayZayEM 00:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight

It seems to me that the section, Rosalind Picard#"A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism", is a violation of the undue weight policy. It is clearly only a minor point, deserving one sentence maximum, not a section heading. As far as I can tell, there is no further information relevant to her other than that she signed it.

I'm removing all but the first sentence, and the rest of the information can be covered over at A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 23:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Her status as a non-biologist is also relevant. The NYT makes a note of the fact. I don't see a problem with trimming down a detailed explanation of what ASDFD was/is. I do think that it should still remain a seperate sectionm, as it is not related to her Affective Computing work.--ZayZayEM (talk) 00:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think her status as a non-biologist is relevant to the Dissent from Darwinism article more so than here. It's really more relevant what she is in this article.
As far as separating it from her other work, if we actually had sections for her other work, it would make more sense to do so. However, the article body only contains one section, Rosalind Picard#Biography, so creating a separate section for the Dissent from Darwinism petition sets it apart as if it were a particularly defining event in her life, which I think it's clearly not. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 01:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]


This is a big part of her notability. It should stay, maybe abbreviated, but it should stay. Without it, she is really just a professor who put smiling faces on computers. So what?--Filll (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a big part of her notability. It's not much of a big anything. She is not Gonzalez. Picard is quite obviously primarily an expert on affective computing, and that is what she is notable for. Even NYT acknowledges she maintained some notability before signing the document, otherwise it would not have listed her as a "nationally prominent scientist".--ZayZayEM (talk) 05:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you cite any major WP:RSs other than the NYT piece that makes mention of her? If not then that piece, and its subject, remains the only substantive evidence of her notability. What the NYT thinks is not relevant to WP:NOTE. If you want an article "primarily on affective computing", then you are welcome to merge this article into the one on the subject (the topic really isn't notable enough to deserve two articles), as I earlier suggested. An article on Picard herself cannot help but give prominent mention of the one thing that she's done that has gotten her mentioned in the mainstream press. HrafnTalkStalk 07:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say I wanted an article on anything. I just said Picard's notability is primarily from such work. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that. It's why she was mentioned in the NYT article, she was already "a nationally prominent scientist". Let's look at the internet: "They walk among us", an article on Future technology has a paragraph on Picard's work; First Monday has an interview with Picard that outlines affective computing and Affective Computing (and in which she asserts her founding of the field, or at least naming); Chris Willmott also has review of Affective Computing

[Picard] tries to meet the criticisms of a sceptical audience by emphasising practical benefits and avoiding science-fiction rhetoric

Another review [5], Further "future/robot" news articles at The Telegraph, The Independent, and The Boston Globe.
Google testing [6] alone brings up one resource that refers to the petition, her wikipedia article... notable indeed.--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good finds. I think Picard passes notability requirements on her own, but if the petition truly were the most significant thing she has done, then the article should be put up for deletion. She was one of several hundred signers, so if she's not notable on her own, she's not worth mentioning at all.
I'll also add that I have not been saying that the information should go, only that the version as it stood constitutes undue weight. Her contribution to ID has been small, both in the context of her life as well as in the context of the ID movement. Unless there's more information to add about her and the ID movement, one sentence is plenty. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 21:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think at the very least we should summarize what is in the NYT article. I do not believe this can adequately be covered in one sentence.--Filll (talk) 21:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not completely convinced that the summary is necessary, as the links to the Discovery Institute and Dissent from Darwinism articles offer quick access to further explanation, but that's a reasonable point to consider. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 00:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur 100% with Filll here - she's notable mostly for being a semi-respectable academic who signed a petition propagated by and fueling the conspiracy theories of cranks. Raul654 (talk) 01:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating opinion. Cite it to a reliable source. --Relata refero (disp.) 03:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See below, re: 0 mentions in the Times for her career, and at least 1 for her signature on that petition. Raul654 (talk) 04:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks to me that Picard would pass WP:ACADEMIC without the ID info at all, as she is a full professor at MIT, a director of a lab, and has won several awards. The extended discussion of ID seems very out of place here, as it is certainly only a very insignificant part of her academic career. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Number of New York Times articles about her career: 0.
Number of New York Times articles about the fact that she signed the DI petition: 1 (at least). Raul654 (talk) 03:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You have a point here, perhaps? Are you unaware that the political pages of the NYT are largely irrelevant to an academic's career? --Relata refero (disp.) 03:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The New York Times has articles about more than politics. Here's one about an old prof of mine and the keyless keyboard he invented. The fact that Picard didn't get into the Times about anything related to her career except the fact that she signed the DI petition (a professional embarrassment) speaks volumes about what she is notable for. Raul654 (talk) 03:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe you're arguing that a mention in thethe NYT politics pages are a reasonable guide to what is notable about an academic's career. The bar for inclusion in the NYT in terms of participation in a hot-button dispute is considerably lower than otherwise; we do not, if we wish to be a reasonable encyclopaedia, repeat that here. You should realise that there are differences between this project and a newspaper, and that is one of them. --Relata refero (disp.) 03:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's an interesting opinion. Care to cite a source? Raul654 (talk) 03:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For what? The difference between us a newspaper? WP:NOTNEWS. --Relata refero (disp.) 04:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For your claim that "The bar for inclusion in the NYT in terms of participation in a hot-button dispute is considerably lower than otherwise" Raul654 (talk) 04:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are beginning to surprise me. Perhaps I should have clarified that I didn't mean the NYT in general, but most newspapers? And are you sure you are claiming that you need a citation for the statement "newspapers tend to focus on politics more than science and technology"? --Relata refero (disp.) 04:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We don't judge academics by the number of New York times articles they generate, but by WP:ACADEMIC. Mainstream media sources on academics are typically either popularized announcements of research breakthroughs, obituaries, or stories about topics independent of the person's career, as here. Mainstream media generally ignores the professional careers of even prominent academics.
Could you explain exactly how signing this petition is an important point in her career, warranting more than a single sentence? I think it would make more sense to simply say she signed the petition and link to a full discussion of it somewhere else, rather than try to expand upon it here. The NYTimes article is not about Picard at all, but about the petition itself. The only things it says about Picard are: she signed the petition, she is nationally prominent, and she is not a biologist. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not important in her career. She not important because of her career - she's an obscure academic in an obscure field of computer science. She's notable for exactly one thing - because she signed that petition.
As for the description itself - we write articles to avoid making people click links to get necessary information. We really should have an entire section on it, but the two sentences in this article are the *minimum* necessary to describe what she did and why it matters. Raul654 (talk) 03:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Utter bollocks. I count a dozen mentions in newspapers alone for her work in affective computing. --Relata refero (disp.) 03:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If she were only notable for one incident, her article should be deleted, per the relevant section of WP:BLP. That's why I looked to see whether Picard passes WP:ACADEMIC independent from the ID stuff. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If she were only notable for one incident, her article should be deleted - totally false. We have article on one-hit-wonder musicians (Tommy Tutone), internet memes (Chris Crocker (Internet celebrity)), and the like. This article is no different than any of those other people that are notable for one and only one thing. Raul654 (talk) 04:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am referring to Wikipedia:BLP#Articles_about_people_notable_only_for_one_event. Your description of Picard - that she is not notable apart from appearing in the NYTimes article about the petition - seems to fit that language well. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since this seems to have blown up spectacularly in my face, I might as well explain my edit. :/

I came across this BLP, which hadn't been edited since last year, and noticed that the paragraph about her signing that creationism petition seemed a disjointed and tangential - her signing the petition is unquestionably notable, but it seemed jarring to go straight from discussion of her research to "In February 2006, the New York Times reported... The petition, a two-sentence statement," without stating why she signed the petition or anything. We have an essay about these sorts of articles and the problems with them - WP:COATRACK. I checked out her personal webpage, noticed she was quite open about her religion, googled "Rosalind Picard christian" and found an Atlantic Monthly article that discussed at length why she was a creationist. So I added a sentence about that, making the article flow more smoothly into the signing of the petition. I also removed the second sentence explaining the petition, as I thought it was straying too off-topic.

I discussed this with Raul and can now see the merits of leaving that last sentence in - I think the article as it now stands is acceptable. What's greatly troubling to me is that instead of discussing this and working out a compromise, certain folks refused my invitation to discuss it and instantly jumped on me and started canvassing for a revert war when a few minutes of discussion would have cheerfully resolved the situation instead. (I'm personally as agnostic and anti-creationist as it gets... the only god I'm working in the name of here is WP:BLP.) This really isn't the way Wikipedia should work - assuming everyone is a POV pusher by default is not how we do things around here. krimpet 04:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know. I'm glad you trust that editor's opinion of what seems necessary here - I must say my trust in that has just received a couple of nasty shocks. There is absolutely no reason to have the last two sentences in there - that is plainly what wikilinks are for. However, since I know that the ID project has several editors who specialise in assuming everyone who disagrees with them is a virulent anti-Science troll, I suppose trying to get it removed step by step is a hopeless enterprise. --Relata refero (disp.) 04:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely atrocious. And it is still not true that a negatyive book review constitutes a violation of WP:BLP for the author. Sorry, but that is...well you can imagine I am sure.--Filll (talk) 05:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, and cherrypicking a usenet post still is. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, for anyone who wants to edit war and generally march around in high dudgeon here, there are some facts you should know if you want to dig into this situation (1) violation of copyright law is generally frowned upon at Wikipedia (2) Wikipedia aspires to be an encyclopedia, not a newspaper (3) The New York Times is generally viewed as a reliable source around here. Sorry. (4) Wikipedia makes it a policy to avoid WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. So just try to absorb a few of these basic principles before you get yourself too worked into a tizzy. Thanks. Oh and you might find it valuable to actually read the RfC instead of going on hearsay.--Filll (talk) 05:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No idea what (1) means, thanks for agreeing with (2) in theory, even if your actions here don't indicate that you agree in practice, (3) is bloody irrelevant to the point and (4) is a truism that is even more irrelevant. If you feel like stating four irrelevant things before breakfast who am I to stop you? --Relata refero (disp.) 06:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you claim these are irrelevant, you just reveal your lack of knowledge of the situation. Better educate yourself before you commit another faux pas like claiming that a negative book review is a violation of BLP.--Filll (talk) 06:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What frakking situation? People reading an article shouldn't need a guide to a "situation" if the article stinks to high heaven.
Truth be told, nos 1-4 are irrelevant for most discussions, unless the person in question is a rank newbie.
And I would never say a negative book review is a violation of BLP! That would be stupid. However, cherry-picking a usenet post for nastiness probably is a violation of BLP. Sad that you haven't moved on from that....
Incidentally, those links to your "challenge" you keep sending out. Do you ever read people's answers to your questions? Or would that lead to too much reality-based interference with your mental classification of editors? --Relata refero (disp.) 06:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know you won't listen, but Relata, you really need to move on from that one tiny little sourcing issue. If you want to be vindictive for all of your days against every single person who gave a differing view, maybe you should find a new way to spend your time. This is what, the 4th time you have brought it up since it happened. And it in no way applies to this article! C'mon. No more about the book review from a (nearly) completely unrelated person. From anyone. The ship has sailed on that topic. Thoughts on the Picard article? Great. Baegis (talk) 06:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read the damn discussion. I didn't bring it up. Peh. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am referring to this post where you clearly are leading back to your one brief excursion onto an ID related article. Filll may have actually mentioned the review, which may have been unnecessary, but you let the cat out of the bag. Let's move on, shall we? Baegis (talk) 07:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I am happy to move on from the incident, and never discuss that issue again. That doesn't mean that I am obliged to never mention the behavioural issues that a bunch of people demonstrated during that, especially when they're demonstrating it again. Note that my statement is not based only on the one instance in which I participated; your assumption that it was is faulty. --Relata refero (disp.) 07:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And I would never say a negative book review is a violation of BLP! That would be stupid. You said it, not me. And as a result, I basically discount everything you claim for obvious reasons. And you can whine all you want, but a good 11 editors or so disagreed with you quite vehemently. If you had insisted, I would have dug up another 50 or 100 to demonstrate how bizarre your position and reasoning is. It really makes me wonder what sort of agenda you have to push. Until I see otherwise, I know what I am going to think. And if you cannot understand the purpose of the AGFC, then that is just par for the course, isn't it? I would expect nothing less from you.--Filll (talk) 14:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I'm also not sure why the article is giving so much weight to this issue. It's the last sentence that is clearly undue weight here. Yes, she was in a NYT article, but please read it more closely - her name was mentioned in passing, she is in no way discussed in the article. To hang this sentence about the Discovery Institute's misdeeds off the end of this short article is simply not appropriate. And after clicking on a few names from [7], it seems even less appropriate, since other articles - like Philip Skell - contain either no or only a short mention. If the reason is we're afraid of handing Moulton and his fellow haters at WPR a victory, then that's stupid. They stand victorious whenever we make a decision based on criteria other than what's best for the encyclopedia. - Merzbow (talk) 07:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to offer another outside opinion here. While a specific mention in the NYT for signing a petition is a notable event, it is only notable as such and the point can be made in a short sentence that links to the petetion. I don't understand the logic behind publishing this kind of detail about the petition, since it has nothing to do with the living person we are writing about specifically:
  • "The petition, a two-sentence statement, has been widely used by its sponsor, the Discovery Institute, and some of its supporters in a national campaign to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools."
What the Discovery institute "has used" the petition for is entirely and completely irrelevant to the any of the people signing it. If Picard has notably recieved criticism or notably created controversy in signing this petition then reporting on that controversy (specifically involving her) may be appropriate, but in this instance it seems that we are creating the controversy ourselves. To me this is exactly what our BLP guidelines are meant to prevent.PelleSmith (talk) 14:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's look at the situation with some rationality here shall we ?

  • Picard signed the petition, as near as we can tell from all our sources.
  • Picard probably did not sign a blank piece of paper, although many have insisted that Picard signed a blank piece of paper. We have no evidence that she signed a blank piece of paper, and it would be a bit hard to imagine an MIT faculty member signing a petition that had no writing on it.
  • Picard signed the petition at least 6 or 7 years ago since she was one of the first 100 signatories and it was revealed in 2001.
  • When the petition was first announced, with great fanfare in a series of advertisements in prominent publications, the petition was framed as an anti-evolution, anti-materialist, anti-methodological naturalism, anti-science statement. The petition has been added to repeatedly since then and now has more than 800 signatories. The petition is worded vaguely on purpose to confuse the unwary. We note this in our article about the petition, and include sources for that, although many have been frantic to remove any discussion of the statement's vague nature and the sources.
  • Since 2001, some signatories have withdrawn their signatures and announced this publicly. Some signatories have issued statements that they disagree with the anti-evolution and anti-science tone of the petition.
  • However, in spite of being clearly aware of all of this, and invited to do something similar over and over and over by many others for years, Picard has repeatedly declined to do so. Picard and her associates have been the subject of mild harassment, at least by some on the internet, for this position.
  • Picard has also published other statements and material that appear to support the anti-science and anti-evolution position of the Discovery Institute.
  • I have tried on a number of occasions to remove Picard's biography from Wikipedia. After all, do you believe that someone who paints smiling faces on computers is the most prominent person in her department at MIT? Do you believe that we have articles on all her colleagues? Do you have any idea how many more prominent faculty members there are at MIT that have no articles? As Raul654 pointed out, clearly the thing that brought her to prominence in Wikipedia was not the fact that she put smiling faces on computers. It was that someone who is obviously educated, and obviously in a technically demanding position, and obviously with colleagues in biology who definitely object to this petition and how it is used, has chosen to continue to use their prestige and position to promote an anti-science, anti-evolution agenda for years and years. It is not super notable, but it is somewhat interesting. So the New York Times published something about it.
  • The New York Times did not publish this lightly. They asked repeatedly for more clarification from Picard. Picard refused to give it. I have been in contact with the New York Times writer and have communications on his efforts in my possession.
  • I have been in contact with Picard herself, and her media agent about this matter. I have been promised repeatedly that she will get back to me to clarify the situation, for months now. Nothing has been forthcoming. The offer still stands. User:Durova made the same offer back in late summer of 2007. Nothing was forthcoming, but Durova's offer still stands. User: Kim Bruning made the same offer 1 week ago, and Bruning's offer still stands. Again, nothing that was promised has yet appeared.
  • This biography is a mess. Anyone can clearly see that. We wasted huge amounts of effort on it months ago and an editor was banned over it. Part of the mess was that people attempted to fix it by cutting and pasting in huge volumes of material that violated copyright. If you want to write more about Picard's career, go ahead. Just do not blindly cut and paste material under copyright to do it. That will be deleted, and such attempts have been deleted in the past several times. That is not the way to do it.
  • Having wasted huge amounts of time on someone barely notable, you will forgive many of us for not wanting to expend more energy on trying to fix this biography when assorted hacks will just destroy our efforts. If you want to make an honest attempt to fix it, go ahead.
  • Part of the problem with most of the efforts to "fix" this biography has been that these efforts have not been at all reasonable. For example, there have been attempts to remove all mention of the New York Times article, or claims that the New York Times is not a reliable source. That is just not going to fly. Over the months there have been many who have tried to address the New York Times article in more palatable terms. All my efforts to describe this in a more appealing way have been flushed down the toilet. The efforts of many others have been discarded as well. After you end up being fought tooth and nail over this, then eventually you say "to hell with it".
  • If you want to "fix" the biography, you will not get very far by pretending Picard did not sign the petition, or by claiming she signed a blank petition, or by claiming the petition is not used to attack evolution and science, or by wanting us to publish a paragraph describing how incompetent the New York Times is, or wanting us to write a paragraph describing how evil and dishonest the Discovery Institute is and how Picard was an unwitting dupe of these evil geniuses, or any similar ridiculous ideas that have been tried here.
  • If you want to "fix" this article, do it seriously and honestly. Start in a sandbox. Write a good 50 or 80 Kilobytes describing Picard's career, in your own words, with plenty of good reliable sources. Include a short section on the New York Times article. Do not try to whitewash it. Do not try to vilify Picard for signing; after all, it might not be a negative thing to her. Do not try to attack the New York Times for publishing it. Do not try to attack the Discovery Institute for their tactics and strategy and agenda. Just state the facts. It is pretty simple to do, instead of attacking the other editors here and throwing tantrums. Take a week or two to really fix the biography, instead of using it as a weapon against other editors here who are trying to do their best.
  • Asking others to volunteer their time to fix this biography is asking a bit much. This is really over the top when you are asking people who have already expended an immense amount of time and effort on this biography and situation. If it is really important to you, show it by actually doing some work instead of just whining.

--Filll (talk) 14:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice essay. Have it published and then have someone else summarize it with a citation. Until then it would be nice to see only relevant, notable and verifiable information about this living person in the entry. The bit about the Discovery intitute is still irrelevant unless we are trying to create controversy here ourselves inspite of our BLP guidelines. The compromise below seems more than appropriate.PelleSmith (talk) 15:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sarcasm is not particularly becoming and shows an unwillingness to abide by WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Are you here to fight, or to write an encyclopedia? Good heavens. Why not try doing some work for a change?--Filll (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Call it what you will, but my point is a simple one. There is no notable controversy surrounding this particular person in relation to that particular petition, and it is unhelpful to have editors writing essays here explain why there should be. Look I'm a staunch evolutionist and no fan of intelligent design, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to bend our basic guidelines to prove a point. Our reaction to something like this has no place here, only notable and sourceable reactions out there in the real world do. Can you please offer an opinion about the compromise below? Thanks graciously.PelleSmith (talk) 15:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I was more than clear on what my position is. I have given you my advice as to what needs to be done to fix this. You can take my advice, or not. Whatever.--Filll (talk) 15:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone seems to agree to mention that Picard signed the petition. The question is why it's necessary to discuss the petition itself here, rather than linking to a WP article about it. This article is not about the petition, it's about Picard. The NYTimes article is not about Picard, it's about the petition, and mentions Picard in passing. The motto in WP:BLP is "cover the event, not the person".
As for keeping or deleting the article, the relevant policy is WP:ACADEMIC. But I think we are all proceeding under the assumption the article would be kept at AFD.
As a compromise, what if we keep the footnoted reference to the NYTimes article, but remove the second sentence, the one about the Discovery Institute? — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


With that sort of reasoning, I suspect you will have trouble. Sorry, but the only reason she is on Wikipedia is she signed the petition. She is not particularly notable as an academic. If you believe she is, spend a week or two writing a proper biography for her in a sandbox and let others look at it. And yes lots and lots of people have tried to claim she did not sign and wanted us to write that she did not sign and the New York Times writer is a stupid #$%^&* for writing that she signed. And just trying to hide the fact that she signed and the NYT wrote an article about it probably is not going to fly. If this is so all-fired important to you, why are you afraid of doing any real work? Stop complaining and do some real writing.--Filll (talk) 15:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The only reason someone with a point to prove added her to Wikipedia," is what I believe you mean to say. WP:ACADEMIC is the test as to whether or not she should have an entry here. Will you consider the compromise suggested above? If not can you explain to us naive outsiders why information about the Discovery institute is relevant here? Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to continue to fight with you about nonsense. Do some work if you want to improve this biography. --Filll (talk) 15:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The work to expand the biography is somewhat orthogonal to the BLP issues that several editors have expressed above. It's unreasonable to ask someone to rewrite the entire page simply to discuss one sentence that appears to violate WP:COATRACK. If other editors in the past have acted poorly, that's unfortunate, but this is a different set of editors, and I don't think anyone here is making the arguments you describe in the list of bullets above. Apart from the fact that Picard signed the petition, is there any evidence she is notable as an advocate for the Discovery Institute? As PelleSmith asks, can you explain why the actions of the Discovery Institute need to be explained in an article about Picard (especially in light of WP:COATRACK)? — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that coatrack is a policy. It is not. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that this article gives undo weight to the fact that she signed the petition. It does not. She is not notable for anything else. The two sentences in this article are the *minimum* required to accurately describe what she did and what it is significant. Raul654 (talk) 15:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have to (again) disagree with your argument she is notable for nothing else. Here are some areas in which she meets the tests of WP:ACADEMIC:
  • A full professor at MIT
  • An IEEE Fellow: "The grade of Fellow recognizes unusual distinction in the profession and shall be conferred by the Board of Directors upon a person with an extraordinary record of accomplishments in any of the IEEE fields of interest. "
  • Newspaper articles on her work, found on LexisNexis:
    • The Independent (London) February 17, 1998, Tuesday, "The computer that can hack into your emotions"
    • The Washington Post, June 7, 2004, "Human Responses to Technology Scrutinized; Emotional Interactions Draw Interest of Psychologists and Marketers"
    • Christian Science Monitor, December 18, 2006, What if your laptop knew how you felt?
In light of these, I think the argument that she is only notable for signing the petition is not very compelling. What do you think of the compromise I suggested above? — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are over 1000 faculty members at MIT [8]. How many of them have articles on WP? The bylaws of the IEEE allow as many as 10 percent of the members per year to be promoted to the position of fellow, and there are about 400,000 members of the IEEE, so literally tens of thousands can be IEEE fellows. 300 have been promoted in 2008. Do you think all of these have WP articles?--Filll (talk) 16:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think if you want to balance out this article, you should try to add details about her allegedly notable career instead of trying to whitewash the well-sourced, notable events surrounding her signing the petition. Raul654 (talk) 16:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should say she signed the petition. What I don't see is the relevance of the Discovery Institute here; could you explain that to me? Is she known as an advocate of the institute beyond simply signing the petition? What do you think of the compromise above? — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not qualified to answer your first two questions. Those would be better directed at Filll, who is more knowledgeable about her than I am. To answer your third question, there are two sentences in this article describing the fact that she signed the petition, and describing what it was. You want to remove the latter sentence, effectively cloaking the meaning, importance, and notability of that fact that she signed it. No, this is not an acceptable compromise. As I have already said - twice - the two sentences in this article are the *minimum* that this article should devote to the subject. Raul654 (talk) 16:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The "why it is significant part" should be directly associated with the person whose biography we are writing and remains a matter of editorial interpretation (see Fill's investigative essay above) unless it has been notably commented on and can be cited as such. There doesn't seem to be any such notability or at lest no one here seems to be offering any evidence of it. As such why can't we just say she signed it with a link to the full entry where there is ample discussion about petition itself? Some minor discriptor could be added as well. Something like this for instance: "In February 2006, the New York Times reported that Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers whose names appeared on the controversial 'A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism,' petition in support of intelligent design." In this example there we say it is controversial and that it relates to intelligent design. I'm still struggling to understand how a sentence about what the Discovery Institute has done with the petition belongs here and am still in hope that someone can explain that. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 16:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Over the months, many many compromises have been attempted. I am telling you from experience, the compromises that involve whitewashing the endorsement of this petition will not work. The way to improve this biography is to IMPROVE THIS BIOGRAPHY. Is that so hard to understand? DO SOME WORK and add some material about her career in your own words if she is so notable and has had such a stellar important notable career putting smiling faces on computers. I will not continue to fight about this nonsense. If you want to have a better biography with more details here, then you have to write one. No one will write one for you or allow you to steal one from someone else. Also, we have plenty of other evidence that Picard supports the Discovery Institute and intelligent design and has an anti-evolution position. But in the interests of fairness and WP:BLP, I do not suggest we smear this woman any more than necessary. Leave sleeping dogs lie. If she is prominent for other things, then go ahead and write about them. Let's not make this article a huge long discussion about how antiscience this woman is with all kinds of references to this activity of hers. Good lord...be reasonable. You want a better biography? Write one.--Filll (talk) 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]