Talk:Lithuanian Civil War (1432–1438)

Common English name

This "war" was between Svitrigaila (Lithuania) and Jogaila (Poland) as Svitrigaila became Grand Duke of Lithuania without approval from Poland and did not agree to acknowledge superiority of Jogaila. He allied himself with Teutonic Knights and others (Livonia, Ruthenia, Moldovia, Tatars, etc.) In 1432 Svitrigaila was deposed by Sigismund Kestutaitis and a civil war erupted. It all ended in the Battle of Pabaiskas and Sigismund became the Grand Duke. Would like to hear some suggestions were to move the article. Civil war in Lithuania (1431–1435)? Renata (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It is known as PTW in Polish historiography. How is it known in Lithuanian? And more important, in English? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

William Urban in his Tannenberg and After spends pages 306-313 to describe the conflict. He does not give a proper name, but mentions that it was a civil war caused by succession disputes. Usually his writing is from Teutonic perspective, but this time it's clear that the reason and force behind this war was Svitrigaila. Davis calls it "civil war in Lithuania" (God's playground, vol 1, page 135). There definite hostilities between PL and TE, but it was just a part of the larger civil-succession war in Lithuania. Renata (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Certainly a civil war in Lithuania was a part of it (and once this is expanded, will deserve its own article as a subarticle), but since other parties got involved, and fought each other, the civil war seems to have turned into a normal war. We can ask at WP:MILHIST if this argument is valid. As I've noted aboove, Polish historians use the term PTwar, and it is also used in English: Jędrzej Giertych, Brazilla Carroll Reece in Poland and Germany: A Reply to Congressman B. Carrol Reece of Tennessee: "There were new wars between Poland and the Teutonic Order in 1414, 1419, 1420—1422, 1431—1433, 1435, 1454—1466". Uniwersytet Warszawski Instytut Historyczny, Polskie Towarzystwo Historyczne Commission d'histoire médiévale, Quaestiones Medii Aevi: "This became the cause of a war in 1431 — 1435 between Poland and...". Stanislaus F. Belch, Paulus Vladimiri and His Doctrine Concerning International Law and Politic: "was occasioned by the renewal of war by the Order against Poland in 1431". Gerard Labuda, Stanisław Salmonowicz, Historia Pomorza, "Further hostilities between Poland and the Teutonic Knights; ... The war in the years 1431—1435". John France, The Crusades and the Expansion of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714: "After Tannenberg, war between Poland and the Order dragged on until 1435". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

In all cases you cite the "war" is taken complete out of context and put with other wars - much different in circumstances. As I said, no one denies there were hostilities, but they were all part of a bigger conflict in Lithuania. Read the expanded article - though it still needs work, it gives a much better overview on what was going on. And you cannot really separate the PL-TE aspect from LT civil war. You would have two nearly identical articles repeating one another. Renata (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Eric Christiansen in his The Northern Crusades sums it up well: Grand Master von Russdof (...) grew friendly with the ancient Witold, and with his successor Svitrigal, but his intervention in the Lithuanian succession dispute of 1431-5 was not a success. (p. 242) Renata (talk) 22:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Piotrus, but none of your quotes have the ring of a proper name. To give a parallel more familiar to me, someone probably writes: "There was war between England and France between 1754 and 1763, 1778 and 1783, 1793 and 1802, and 1802 and 1815", but we don't call the American Revolutionary War "War between England and France", all the same. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's start with the new name: I am not convinced it is better either by the evidence provided (0 Google Print hits) and logic.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

One actually. We do not require that our disambiguator be common usage. That's not, I agree, much. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• It seems clearly too obscure to have a common name in English, unless it is something completely different, which is possible. "Lithuanian Civil War" would of course be the usual English form, and this does seem to have ghits. But the alternatives should be incorporated in the lead. Johnbod (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • If it has no proper name in English, then we need a descriptive title. Although Piotrus' quotes come back into evidence for that, "Lithuanian civil war" has the advantage of not requiring dismabiguation, and the NCMedH appears to speak of it thus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Well, I don't know what we call them, but the ghits suggested other episodes in the 16th & 20th centuries can be so called - of course with dates the title could stand alone, but a disam page might be a good idea anyway. Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Incorrect. There is also a Civil war in Lithuania (1700) (although the name of that event is also disputable, see talk - comments appreciated).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course a part of the problem here is the issue of Polish/Lithuanian in name. There will be Lithuanian editors who will see the current name as some form of "diminishining Lithuanian role" and campaign for Lithuanian in name due to that, and vice versa for Polish editors. Perhaps another "Polish-Lithuanian–Teutonic War" would be a reasonable compromise (despite the fact that this is another invented name used to appease a certain group of editors...).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with current title is that it completely misses the entire point and reason for the conflict. PL-LT-TE war does not seem ok to me because there were two Lithuanians: one of Svitrigaila and another of Sigismund Kestutaitis, and the point of the war is still unclear. How about War of Lithuanian Succession (following Eric Christiansen)? No parties mentioned in the title, yet the point of the war is expressed exactly. Renata (talk) 17:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty name - but unused in literature. I've illustrated that this war has a clear name in Polish historiography (one that translates as the PTW); how is it called in Lithuanian? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It's been quite established that there is no name for it in English (as usual). In Lithuanian it also does not have a proper name, just generic "civil war", "succession dispute", etc. So we need a descriptive term. I believe "War of Lithuanian Succession" is the most descriptive & neutral. Renata (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe using the estabilished name from Polish historiography is better. We should try to find out if there is a German name, though.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

It's Polish-Teutonic(German) War in Hungarian, so let's leave it at that. Wandalstouring (talk) 11:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

There are at least 4 non-Polish & non-Lithuanian historians writing in English who refer to this conflict as some sort of "civil war" or "succession dispute" and spend at least a sentence to describe its essence:

• Daniel Stone: ... policies in Lithuania prolonged the civil war that had broken out after Vytautas died in 1430. (p. 22)
• Norman Davies: civil war in Lithuania (p.135)
• William Urban: succession crisis in Lithuania (p. 335)
• Eric Christiansen: Lithuanian succession dispute of 1431-5 (p. 242)

Those are only ones I have print copies of - instead of relying on scrapped Ghits. The first two are known for their works on Polish history, the last two - from works on Teutonic/Crusade history. None of Piotrus ghits hold any water:

• Jędrzej Giertych, Brazilla Carroll Reece in Poland and Germany: A Reply to Congressman B. Carrol Reece of Tennessee: "There were new wars between Poland and the Teutonic Order in 1414, 1419, 1420—1422, 1431—1433, 1435, 1454—1466". - As PMAnderson said, there was war between Russia and Sweden in 1700-1721, but it is known as the Great Northern War. And in the list given three wars have their proper names: Hunger, Gollub, and Thirteen Years' Wars
• Uniwersytet Warszawski Instytut Historyczny, Polskie Towarzystwo Historyczne Commission d'histoire médiévale, Quaestiones Medii Aevi: "This became the cause of a war in 1431 — 1435 between Poland and...". - you cannot even see what the "and" part is. Same as #1. Would be interesting to know the cause, though.
• Stanislaus F. Belch, Paulus Vladimiri and His Doctrine Concerning International Law and Politic: "was occasioned by the renewal of war by the Order against Poland in 1431". - all it says the order attacked Poland in 1431. "War" is not described.
• Gerard Labuda, Stanisław Salmonowicz, Historia Pomorza, "Further hostilities between Poland and the Teutonic Knights; ... The war in the years 1431—1435". - yes, there was a war in those years. What kind of war is quite another question.
• John France, The Crusades and the Expansion of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714: "After Tannenberg, war between Poland and the Order dragged on until 1435". - Why? How were the wars in between called?

While the war remains too obscure to have any proper name, it's quite clear it was about succession in Lithuania. Wikipedia's title should reflect that. Renata (talk) 06:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about correcting or proving your history thesis. I even agree with your logic (not with your critique of sources) and the "Lithuanian War of Succession" is nice - but ORish. You should publish an article about this war, giving it a name and arguing for it. Then we can use your new name in our article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

My thesis? How about descriptions presented by non-Polish and non-Lithuanian historians in their well-respected works on Polish and Teutonic history? If you don't like War of Lithuanian Succession as a reasonable compromise, let's follow Davis, Stone, and Britannica (in article about Jogaila) by naming it Lithuanian civil war (1431–1435), my original proposal. I hope you won't argue that Davis and Britannica are ORish too. Renata (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Dubious. As I've shown above, the civil war was only a part of the larger Polish-Teutonic War.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)