Talk:Monks Mound

Merge?

Monk's Mound is the largest surviving mound within Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site. There is no reason for the two articles to be separate from each other and if someone wants to merge them, I would cheer them on. Bigturtle 18:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge them. Most of the info repeats anways.

I oppose the merge. There is a lot of information available on Monks Mound. The fact that it hasn't yet been incorporated into Wikipedia does not mean that it won't be. I didn't know there was a Monks Mound article, or I would have added the information. Also, analogously, Teotihuacan and the Pyramid of the sun have separate articles. Might as well treat Cahokia and its largest monumental construction the same way. TriNotch 03:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits and an editor's personal website

Yesterday a pretty poor article was replaced by one which I think would have passed the WP:GOOD article process. Since then, and with very few edit summaries explaining why, it has been changed in a way which changes it considerably (eg reverting the statement of 'there is no evidence of significant settlement' to 'there is evidence'. I think a lot of this has to do with Marburg72's own personal experience and a misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. He has stated elsewhere that he supports the truth, which is laudable in one sense, but I believe has led him to edit in line with his understanding of 'the truth' (an elusive goal normally). For instance, he (twice at least) removed a quote sourced from a university press book co-authored by the dean of Cahokia archaeology because he didn't believe the statement was accurate. He has very strong views on what is the 'truth' here about recent excavations, and it is understandably difficult for him to be objective about something in which he has been heavily involved and has very strong feelings. I am sure that he deserves the credit he has been given for his work with the Cahokia Archaeology Society, but personal knowledge cannot be a source for Wikipedia. I also have serious problems with his insistence on adding his personal web site[1] here and elsewhere. I'll ignore the conflict of interest in his adding his own website as it is the site itself that is the problem. First, it's a personal website, and it is rare for those to be acceptable as either sources or external links. (see WP:LINKSTOAVOID. Another editor has pointed out that it includes "much incorrect information", which is true. It is also [[WP:FRINGE]. For instance, it refers to "expert Rick Osmon, the host of the Out of Place Artifact show called OOPA LOOPA CAFE". The 'Out of Place Artifact' more or less makes it clear Osmon is fringe, and I'd question the use of 'expert'. Osmon also publishes in the cult archaeology journal Ancient American[2] and is clearly not a reliable source. Marburgy2/Vince Barrows[3] appears on his radio show from time to time according to his website. The website also treats as genuine fringe stuff such as the Walam Olum (with no mention of recent criticism and an implicit claim that someone who has now acknowledged it is a hoax still supports it), the Grave Creek Tablets, Burrows Cave (rejected as a hoax even by most people who support hyperdiffusionists like Barry Fell) etc. Sure, there is a lot of hard work in it, but it doesn't belong as a source or link in Wikipedia. Doug Weller (talk) 08:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• What about the limestone slabs business? I've never heard of that, seems easy to prove or disprove. This claim that the Codex canadiensis says the the site was inhabited past 1500 is odd, since the map shows the join of the Missouri as uninhabited, (although this is just me and my OR). How can there be debate over the dimensions? Why is there debate over the dimensions? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 08:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Depends what everybody means by "the limestone slabs business". So far, drilling has encountered some areas of rocky material which the operator said (just before the drill bit fell off) felt like limestone; and excavation last summer revealed some limestone slabs in a different location, probably a ceremonial feature from an earlier phase of the Mound's development- but there is so far no evidence that limestone was a significant constructional material within the Mound. The Codex Canadiensis claim does indeed defy both conventional scholarship and site archaeology. And there is debate over the dimensions because of the notorious slumping. Where does slumped Mound end and open field begin? David Trochos (talk) 12:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Phlegm Rooster is right I think about the Codex map. The claim is simply OR, a personal interpretation of the map (despite the fact that others have pointed out to him that if it shows the Mississippi it is odd that it doesn't show rivers, settlements etc that are on other maps (a quick Google search on 'Codex Canadiensis' and Cahokia turned up a discussion about it here[4]. As I've said, MB72 needs to follow WP policies and guidelines more - he keeps quoting them so you'd think he'd know them by now.Doug Weller (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Photos of the colored soil, limestone slabs, and destruction can be seen on the website. http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/ The limestone slabs hit on both sides of the mound indeed indicate that it is an important part of the construction materials. The codex map includes the mississippi river vally- a point that has been added to the website upon my recommendation. It is verified on their website. Look at the rivers - Mississippi, Illinois and Missouri come together and two huge mounds are depicted at the location of Cahokia, which states Manitou statue. It is verifiable on their website. http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/codex/026014-1000-e.html The debate over the dimensions is strange, because the map referenced states the dimensions specifically. The website http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound includes information about the excations in question and does not meet any of the criteria of links to avoid. It is well cited specific sources about the site - and not a "personal website" in subject by any means. Nor is it "fringe" Doug. Dougs attitude of calling everything fringe stems from his own website about fringe topics. He really needs to stop labeling everything as fringe. Also, his claims about Rick Osmon are entirely false, as Rick Osmon knows more about archaeology than anyone that I have ever spoken with.Marburg72 (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have nothing against Rick, but he has published in the cult archaeology/fringe/robs Native Americans of their heritage magazine Ancient American, his radio show "The "Oopa Loopa Cafe, where the Ozman debunks the debunkers" " is about fringe topics, he thinks Gloria Farley's book is great, etc. You obviously have your own definition of fringe (and as for labelling things fringe, please recall the fact that you labelled a quote from a university press book co-authored by the dean of Cahokia archaeology as fringe). Your website is a personal website, however many citations you may have on it. As for the map from the Codex, your interpretation is your interpretation. Phlegm Rooster admitted his interpretation was Original Research. Doug Weller (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)