Talk:Monks Mound

Merge?

Monk's Mound is the largest surviving mound within Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site. There is no reason for the two articles to be separate from each other and if someone wants to merge them, I would cheer them on. Bigturtle 18:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge them. Most of the info repeats anways.

I oppose the merge. There is a lot of information available on Monks Mound. The fact that it hasn't yet been incorporated into Wikipedia does not mean that it won't be. I didn't know there was a Monks Mound article, or I would have added the information. Also, analogously, Teotihuacan and the Pyramid of the sun have separate articles. Might as well treat Cahokia and its largest monumental construction the same way. TriNotch 03:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits and an editor's personal website

Yesterday a pretty poor article was replaced by one which I think would have passed the WP:GOOD article process. Since then, and with very few edit summaries explaining why, it has been changed in a way which changes it considerably (eg reverting the statement of 'there is no evidence of significant settlement' to 'there is evidence'. I think a lot of this has to do with Marburg72's own personal experience and a misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. He has stated elsewhere that he supports the truth, which is laudable in one sense, but I believe has led him to edit in line with his understanding of 'the truth' (an elusive goal normally). For instance, he (twice at least) removed a quote sourced from a university press book co-authored by the dean of Cahokia archaeology because he didn't believe the statement was accurate. He has very strong views on what is the 'truth' here about recent excavations, and it is understandably difficult for him to be objective about something in which he has been heavily involved and has very strong feelings. I am sure that he deserves the credit he has been given for his work with the Cahokia Archaeology Society, but personal knowledge cannot be a source for Wikipedia. I also have serious problems with his insistence on adding his personal web site[1] here and elsewhere. I'll ignore the conflict of interest in his adding his own website as it is the site itself that is the problem. Doug Weller (talk) 08:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• What about the limestone slabs business? I've never heard of that, seems easy to prove or disprove. This claim that the Codex canadiensis says the the site was inhabited past 1500 is odd, since the map shows the join of the Missouri as uninhabited, (although this is just me and my OR). How can there be debate over the dimensions? Why is there debate over the dimensions? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 08:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Depends what everybody means by "the limestone slabs business". So far, drilling has encountered some areas of rocky material which the operator said (just before the drill bit fell off) felt like limestone; and excavation last summer revealed some limestone slabs in a different location, probably a ceremonial feature from an earlier phase of the Mound's development- but there is so far no evidence that limestone was a significant constructional material within the Mound. The Codex Canadiensis claim does indeed defy both conventional scholarship and site archaeology. And there is debate over the dimensions because of the notorious slumping. Where does slumped Mound end and open field begin? David Trochos (talk) 12:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Phlegm Rooster is right I think about the Codex map. The claim is simply OR, a personal interpretation of the map (despite the fact that others have pointed out to him that if it shows the Mississippi it is odd that it doesn't show rivers, settlements etc that are on other maps (a quick Google search on 'Codex Canadiensis' and Cahokia turned up a discussion about it here[2]. As I've said, MB72 needs to follow WP policies and guidelines more - he keeps quoting them so you'd think he'd know them by now.Doug Weller (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Photos of the colored soil, limestone slabs, and destruction can be seen on the website. http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/ The limestone slabs hit on both sides of the mound indeed indicate that it is an important part of the construction materials. The codex map includes the mississippi river vally- a point that has been added to the website upon my recommendation. It is verified on their website. Look at the rivers - Mississippi, Illinois and Missouri come together and two huge mounds are depicted at the location of Cahokia, which states Manitou statue. It is verifiable on their website. http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/codex/026014-1000-e.html The debate over the dimensions is strange, because the map referenced states the dimensions specifically. The website http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound includes information about the excations in question and does not meet any of the criteria of links to avoid. It is well cited specific sources about the site - and not a "personal website" in subject by any means. Nor is it "fringe" Doug. Dougs attitude of calling everything fringe stems from his own website about fringe topics. He really needs to stop labeling everything as fringe. Marburg72 (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

My interpretation of the map says no; Manitou/Great Spirit could just as well mean the place was haunted. Manitou statue is south of the Ohio; Cahokia north of the Ohio. It certainly is slim evidence of settlement, much like using the monsters at the ends of maps as proof of the Loch Ness Monster. Otherwise, no settlements are shown between the Ohio and the north end of the map. Even as OR it is weak. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 19:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact it says very specifically Manitou statue ou les sauvages vont faire leurs adorations- "Manitou statue where the savages go to make their adorations". And indeed, no native settlements are shown in the valley of the Mississippi River north of the Ohio. David Trochos (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The river that Phelgm is interpreting to the be the Ohio is actually the Illinois (that the sangamon river flows into). It is not slim evidence considering the large mound representations and the inclusion of this suggestion on the Library and Archives of Canada website after my discovery and suggestion to them. =Cahokia is the location correctly depicted just south of the Illinois, Ohio, and Missouri rivers which are depicted correctly on the map. The suggestion by Trochos that it says Manitou statue where the savages go to make their adorations is an important piece of information because Cahokia is known to be the place of discovery of such statues that look identical to the drawing including the Keller and Birger figuriens, and the natives were known to make adorations there on the sacred ground. Hence the name Twakanda for the site. Marburg72 (talk) 02:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, you have been told that your personal website (and it is a personal website, I clicked 'About Me' on the top menu and there you were) is not a reliable source, and you keep reinstating it. If you want to argue the case, go to WP:RSN. Doug Weller (talk) 17:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Define Personal Website. According to Wikipedia, Personal web pages are World Wide Web pages created by an individual to contain content of a personal nature. This web page contains no personal information. It is entirely on the topic of the Mound excavations and the History of Cahokia, and Monks Mound. No personal information is contained. Therefore this claim that it is a personal website is false and completely wrong, again. If you define personal website as a website created by a person, then every website is. This is not a personal website, any questions? Marburg72 (talk) 00:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, if this was about somebody putting a link to those pictures of yours in the External Links section, I wouldn't care. It is the reinterpretation you imposed on the text that is troubling. Some of what you say may turn out to be true, but Wikipedia is not the place to publish your original research. That's actually policy. In my field, I spot many things that are incorrect in the literature and on Wikipedia. If I can't find a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal to cite when I make the change to Wikipedia, I don't make the change. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 02:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, the website is important and it has been reviewed by many who have all appreciated the information that it contained. Many stated that it is the best piece on Cahokia Mounds available. It has been peer-reviewed by archaeologists who have stated "we strongly support this native American-oriented ethnohistory of Cahokia". It is strange that such information (especially when it is free) could be rejected as a link that may interest readers.Marburg72 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you would benefit from going to graduate school. I see that a number of profs have been impressed with your dedication, which is all that is really required for admission. It'll be a lot more fun to work within the system. For one thing, you get paid, even as a student. If you are interested, I can explain how to go about doing that--leave me a message on my talk page. As far as this article is concerned, we have to stick to material published in reliable sources. Please don't argue any more. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 03:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what Phelgm Rooster has said above. Grad school sounds a good and viable option. As for the web page, you have misunderstood or not read the appropriate guidelines. The article on personal web pages is irrelevant. See WP:SPS. "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable.[Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." I have explained with some detail why your site is not acceptable. The fringe content is there, although I suspect largely overlooked, and anything else relevant to the article should be available from reliable sources. Doug Weller (talk) 05:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate Phlegm's polite response and do not appreciate Dougs continuted rudeness and accusations of falsehoods including fringe. He really needs to stop accusing everything as being Fringe - look at his talk page- he has a long history of these sorts of accusations - and hosts a website on fringe topics. The RFC that Trochos file against me is considered abuse of policy. If wikipedia is not a battleground, then why are these rude comments and false accusations being thrown around? Marburg72 (talk) 15:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)