Talk:Atheism

3 forms of atheism in intro

I am curious about the order in which different forms of atheism are introduced. It begins with the 'strongest' definition (most aggressive, more assumptive) and ends with the 'weaker' and more common, more reasonable, humble and unassuming atheism. I think the order they're presented in should be inverted. More atheists simply lack a believe in god than who reject theism than whom disavow the possibility of a god. Presenting it out of order of precidence as it is now gives a false impression of atheism and atheists. If no one objects then I'll change this next time around (anyone else feel free to take initiative). Tyciol (talk) 16:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia's policy is to never move sections or paragraphs based on perceived importance. However, what you strive for may be accomplished by adding a mention of how much there are strong/weak/etc. atheists out there, according to a reliable source, of course. Also, thanks for cleaning up this talk page. --Draco 2k (talk) 16:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I will likely disagree with your change. Make a suggestion here and get feedback before changing the introduction. johnpseudo 17:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I am also likely to disagree, I think the current order of strong to weak is most informative for the reader, regardless of actual numbers of people. Arnoutf (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion John and Arn, however, that's exactly what this section is, this is the suggestion right here. Why do you think strong to weak is most informative to readers? It should be the other way around, because all 'strong' also have the 'weak' beliefs with additional restrictions. Tyciol (talk) 06:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning. To me, it seems most intuitive to start with the features that are common to all atheists, and then progressively add the restrictions that define subsets. How many there are of each kind isn't hugely important. Ilkali (talk) 17:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning here, this is a more important reasoning which I've come to realize in discussing the subject on DebateFaith on StickAm. However, numerical representation (albeit, unprovable) is also a valuable consideration. Certainly, using your logic of inclusivity, since all strong are weak with additional restrictions, using the weak definition first does represent them, just not all of them, but still the most. We need to repsent what atheist is at its broadest widest base before adding these additional interpretations. Since you agree with the change, and since John and Arn have not actually provided any reasons for objection, I'll go ahead and do it. Tyciol (talk) 06:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Note there's a difference between "which group has more people in it", and "which definition is more common". For the former, it's obviously true that the broadest definition has most people in it, because it's the most broadest definition (each definition is a subset of the one that follows - so the nontheism definition includes all explicit atheists and strong atheists). It's not clear to me it makes sense to say that it has more atheists in it, because that depends itself on what definition of atheism is being used. I don't really mind myself which order we have, but there may be objections if we lead with the nontheism (i.e., inclusive of implicit atheism) as the first definition? Mdwh (talk) 20:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

As I said above I would prefer the strong definition first as the order of arguments would be: "in its strongest form - in a medium form - in its weakest form" which in my opinion would be an easier story to tell than "in a weak form - in a medium form - in its strongest form". But opinions may differ. It is about the best story we want to tell, not the number of people. Arnoutf (talk) 21:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Mdwh made a good point in that obviously the broadest will always cover the most people. I think that's an important consideration but certainly not what leads us to make a final decision. But at what source can we tally what the more common definition at? Furthermore, does 'common' matter? Words are commonly misinterpreted but that doesn't mean we define a word by the mistakes of the majority, but rather, on the historical sources of a word and proper uses. Really, you would start with the 'first' use and then explain how it has changed over time, is I think the best policy. I'm hesitating at making the change now Arn because I don't want to cross you, but I don't understand why you think it is an easier story to tell by starting with strong. I think by starting at weak, it helps to better state what the stronger forms add on to it in terms of restrictive belief. Also, can we use something else besides weak/strong? Who originated this classification? Is it popular enough to be counted? Are there any alternatives which are more accurate? This isn't really a case of 'weak' or 'strong' but rather of nonbelief versus an unrealistic presumption of omniscient knowledge of god's nonexistance. I really do not think the latter is a simple or common definition, and I feel introducing it first misrepresents atheism. Tyciol (talk) 06:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Socrates?

This is misleading. Someone out there has removed my addition of the fact that Socrates was a determined theist and believed in Gods, just not in the Gods of Athens. I suggest we remove this example, because Socrates is not an atheist; why should we care if he was wrongly charged?Gabr-el 00:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to add it in if you could supply a reliable source or two. Not denying that there aren't any, but it'd be nice to have them. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 00:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

My pleasure to work with you - "My service to the god has brought me into great poverty". Page 126 of Archetypes of Wisdom, ISBN 0-495-00707-2

In Plato's Apology, Socrates says that he cannot have a disbelief in the Gods because he believes in spirits. Gabr-el 01:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

In Phaedrus, Socrates prays to various gods and says a divine sign compelled him to stay. Str1977 ^(talk)

I agree, Socrates as presented in Dialogs was not atheist we need to change that. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know of an online version of Apology that we could link to? There is evidence also that Socrates was monotheist or to a certain extent a deist. Should we also include this? Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 23:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If Socrates is to remain on this page, then that would be best to clarify the situation. Heres an online version: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html Gabr-el 23:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the diff for my addition. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 23:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that is all that needs to be said. Good job Gabr-el 00:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this is too much, Socrate should not be even mentioned since he was not an atheist. -- 70.108.99.181 (talk) 01:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

But Socrates is often cited as an example of an atheist, and indeed impiety was the reason for his death. So his connexion with atheism in notable enough for inclusion, albeit with caveats. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 01:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

User:70, I see what you mean. I felt that Socrates being mentioned was misleading, but the addition has rectified this, at least to some extent and as Erik the Red pointed out, there is some historical value to it. The charge of impiety was the charge of "not believing in the gods" - a charge of atheism, even though he was not atheist. Gabr-el 05:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Heresy

"When Christianity became the state religion of Rome under Theodosius I in 381, heresy became a punishable offense.[80]" True - but what's the relevance to atheism? Heresy is holding wrong beliefs within the Christian religion. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I buy your argument, not believing the official dogma was heresy, for example not believing that Christ = Son of God was a heresy, of which any atheist would become guilty no matter what... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference. Heretics are those who corrupt the religion, atheists however are not part of the religion in the first place. Gabr-el 22:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Heresy is a contradiction with religious orthodox. Atheism is possibly the worst heresy imaginable, barring inverse-religions (Satanism, etc.). If Socrates disagreed with something about Christianity at that time, it makes sense to mention that he was accused of heresy and why it's notable. --Draco 2k (talk) 23:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Socrates was not executed for heresy by the Roman Empire, seeing that he died almost 800 years before Theodisius, in around 399 BC. He was executed for atheism by the city of Athens. Whether he was atheist or not is another matter, see the discussion above. He was not atheist in the way we think of the word now, but atheist to the Athenians, as they thought that believing in any other gods besides theirs was in effect atheism, as believing in other gods is mot believing in the real gods ie theirs.

Tourskin is correct. Not believing that Christ was the son of god but was still divine would be a heresy, but not believing that Christ was the son of god because you didn't believe in that god was an entirely different crime. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 23:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't a (secular) crime at all unless you were part of Christianity. Str1977 ^(talk) 08:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There was no Christianity in 399 BC (BC means Before Christ) when Socrates died. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 23:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

That too. :) Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 23:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

A heretic is only a heretic if he is a member of the religion in question. Without regard to a certain religion, the term is meaningless. To say atheism is the worst heresy without saying in relation to what religion is pointless. One could just as well say atheism is orthodoxy.

Sure, if some Christian suddenly got up and declared atheistic opinions that would have fallen under heresy under the decree of Theodosius. Only, are there any records of such atheists at the time? The edict is anyway an overstatement as the first heretic was not killed by Theodosius (but by the usurper Maximus).

My basic problem is that the edict gets misrepresented into saying something it didn't, like that it consituted persecution of atheists or other non-Christians. Aside from closing all pagan temples and endorsin the Christian faith as taught in Rome and Alexandria, the edict doesn't do that. Str1977 ^(talk) 08:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

In many parts of the Empire, even in the heavily Christianized East, non-Christian religions continued on. Gabr-el 17:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

To contextualise, declaring yourself Christian would probably be a heresy in the cult of Jupiter at least as bad as declaring yourself atheist. So it has little to do with atheism per se Arnoutf (talk) 19:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words

"Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings" I don't like that sentence at all. Is there a type of atheism that isn't sceptical of all supernatural beings? Why "self-described"? There is nothing like that in the Christian article and if anything I have seen more fights there about whether someone is really a Christian or not. I have not made any changes as I guess there is history to such awkward wording. What do others think? Sophia 13:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I was going to place "Citation needed" over this bit, but, I guess, forgot about it. It's pretty poor wording and it comes out of nowhere - though, it is an introduction... Could use some better wording, yes. --Draco 2k (talk) 14:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of atheists who believe in ghosts, spirits, etc. I think "self-described" is used in some places because a lot of atheists are unwilling to use the term for themselves, but I'm not sure how that would be relevant in the text you quote. Ilkali (talk) 14:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:Atheism2

Can anyone explain what's going on at {{atheism2}}? Every few days recently, a different IP has been changing the background color and order of the links. Different IPs from different British ISPs. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-08-28 13:32Z

You provide an explanation immediately after the question. Pretty succinctly, too! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 16:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering what the motivation is, and why they would be from different ISPs - using Tor, maybe? but why, if they're not even going to create a user account? — BRIAN0918 • 2008-08-28 18:41Z

Homographs

Theist and Atheist frequently confuse these homographs, ignoring the diffrant Etymologies, definitions, and pronunciations. I think we should replace this page with a disabiguation page.

Atheism pronounced /aytheeiz’m/ [ey-thee-iz-uhm] and comes from attaching the prefix 'a-' to the word 'theism'."What is Atheism?-About.com" Atheism is the lack of a belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism is also known as weak atheism(see Weak and strong atheism).

'Atheism' comes from attaching the prefix 'a-' and the suffix '-ism' to greek word 'theos' and is pronounced /aythi-iz’m/ [eythee-iz-uhm]."Compact Oxford English Dictionary" Atheism is also known as is also called strong atheism to destingish is from Atheism (atheism)(see Weak and strong atheism). BigCuteKitty (talk) 03:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

BigCuteKitty, the page "Atheism" is a long established and important page - it will be difficult to make wholesale changes as you are suggesting. However, I think the point you are making is something that can be written into the prose of this article and would be better suited to the Wiktionary Article. This is why I have placed "merge" and "move to wiktionary" tags on both of your recently created articles: Atheism (atheism) and Atheism (Theism).

Could people please have a look at these two articles and assess whether they should be expanded, merged together, redirected here, and/or transwikied to Wiktionary. Thanks Witty Lama 04:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

As it stands Atheism doesn't even mention that Atheism is two diffrance words as is clearly evident by the diffrant means, etymologies and pronounciation. Atheism (Atheism) is pronouced like 'theism' with the sylible 'a' stuck on the front. Having an real page at Atheism is just going to cause more confusion and debating on which 'atheism' is the TRUE atheism. Look up the edit history on my original Atheism_(atheism) page. OH you can't becouse someone deleted it because someone replaced it with a just redirect to Atheism. And with out any aknowlegment at the word Atheist spell A-T-H-E-I-S-M is a diffrance word than what the Theist spell A-T-H-I-S-M Atheism (Atheism) seems like an "implausible typo, link, or misnomer" —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigCuteKitty (talk • contribs) 06:03, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I really think that since you are talking about pronunciation differences that this discussions should really happen at Wiktionary here. As for "Athism" - I've never heard of it, and a google search brings up zero hits for the word. Frankly, I don't really understand what you are trying to argue but this might be more due to my lack of understanding, I don't know. Nevertheless, I find it unlikely that, if this were indeed an important issue, an article as "high profile" as Atheism could get to Featured Article status without this topic coming up before.

Could other editors please weigh in on this one? I'd like some second opinions Witty Lama 08:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's really true that the word has two different etymologies, then that should be mentioned. However, the word is used today as a single word. Every dictionary I have seen that gives the two definitions still list them under the same word. Many issues in this article are related to both definitions of atheism, so what are we going to do to material that is common to both? Moreover, not all concepts of atheism fit into either weak or strong (e.g., some people such as Dawkins IIRC prefer to view it in terms of how probable one believes God's existence is).

I've never heard of two pronunciations of atheism, either. I dispute your claim that there are these two separate definitons, as you have relied on two entirely separate sources: all this shows is that the two sources disagree as to the definitions and etymologies. Can you show me a single source that lists both definitions, but still claims different etymologies? In fact, the about.com link you give *does* give the strong atheism definition - however, it makes no claim about this definition having a different etymologies that I can see? Furthermore, I can't see where the about.com gives a pronunciation? Mdwh (talk) 14:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This is bogus - there is no pronunciation that pronounces the first two syllables as one syllable. I believe we are being trolled --JimWae (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Work of weasels?

In the practical atheism section should the following sentence remain- "Historically, practical atheism was considered by some people to be associated with moral failure". There is a reference, but why not say in the initial sentence who it was that considered atheism to be associated with moral failure? Wouldn't this indeed give a much broader explanation of the historical social and political contexts that the author is referring to? Otherwise could someone please explain what exactly "moral failure" means in this context, considering that it was written to suggest that it was the absence of morality rather than a failure of morality. Ninahexan (talk) 06:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

"Historically, practical atheism was considered by some people to be associated with moral failure, willful ignorance and impiety. Those considered practical atheists were said to behave as though God, ethics and social responsibility did not exist; they abandoned duty and embraced hedonism."

Yes, it is. What the hell is it doing in a featured article.

The reference cites an Issue of New York Times, though I'm not sure if it's just for a personal quote - but even then, "some" and "were said to" are weasel words. And "moral failure" isn't even a valid term. --Draco 2k (talk) 13:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Most likely it was added by a drive-by editor with no discussion. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-03 14:21Z

Quite probably. I propose this be deleted as per WP:OR. --Draco 2k (talk) 14:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I've switched that paragraph back to the version that it was at the time of FA promotion. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-03 14:42Z

Good. Guess the OR bit was overlooked during FA review then. --Draco 2k (talk) 15:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it was overlooked. I did much of the work on that FAC and most everyone involved was meticulous with dissecting content. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-03 15:03Z

What was it then? It's still OR and weasely-wording, and it's still in a featured article. --Draco 2k (talk) 15:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean FA review, or do you mean its original promotion? I can't find a review for this article, and Brian's comment about reverting the paragraph seems to imply that the OR wasn't there at the time of promotion. Olaf Davis | Talk 16:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

So, should it be removed then? --Draco 2k (talk) 17:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

What part do you contend is original research? — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-03 19:47Z

"Historically, practical atheism was considered by some people to be associated with moral failure, willful ignorance and impiety. Those considered practical atheists were said to behave as though God, ethics and social responsibility did not exist; they abandoned duty and embraced hedonism." Additionally, "some people" and "were said to" are really weasel phrases. --Draco 2k (talk) 20:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

That isn't what it says now. Now it says what the original FA said at the time of promotion. Do you have a problem with this version? — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-03 20:51Z

The current (or FA whichever) wording removes one of the weasel phrases, which is good, but it doesn't fix anything else. There's still the second weasel phrase, and, more importantly, still no references for any of these claims, unless I'm missing something. --Draco 2k (talk) 22:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Now there is a statement of fact that says "Historically, practical atheism has been associated with depravity, willful ignorance and impiety". The reference is from 1961, from a catholic priest philosopher. I have been trying to research the actual use of the term "practical atheism" and can't seem to find much. Is this actually a valid phrase to use? Should it really form a sub-section of this article if its use has not found consensus? If one were to meet the phrase in a conversation you might think it meant that for all practical purposes someone is an atheist, whereas I think the intent is to suggest that atheism is preferred because it is practical to adopt the absence of divine rules to feel better about one's behaviour. Anyway, if I had more experience in wikipedia I would try to eliminate the sub-section and perhaps mention practical atheism in a more neutral way that explicitly refers to who uses the phrase. Ninahexan (talk) 03:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I've got something on that, but it's not exactly an RS. I've added [citation needed] templates to cover the unsourced statements in the section. I would not object to anyone deleting these sentences as per WP:OR, or take the action later on myself. If you have anything to say on the matter, please sound off here. --Draco 2k (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should cite some 12th century Islamic philosophers from the Levant about what they think of the Catholic Church. Or witnesses to any of the Crusades, witch-brunings, Inquisitions, etc. Why is a section using a Catholic philosopher as a reference even allowed on an article about atheism? Does that mean that I can go onto the page of the Catholic Church and cite quotes from Diderot, Voltaire, and Zola? Chuck Hamilton (talk) 20:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

We can cite any reliable sources as long as they're properly attributed. These few sentences simply don't have this attribution, or a source, which is what matters. --Draco 2k (talk) 21:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments by a Catholic philosopher about what his opinion of "practical atheism" is have no place in the section of the article "Atheism" dealing with "practical atheism". For it to be included, there should be a new section entirely created dealing with the opinions of religionists about various degrees of atheism. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 21:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it does violate second-party rule (or what's it called), but I don't think it's hugely important. Actually, we do have a Criticism of Atheism article - but no section on practical atheism there. --Draco 2k (talk) 22:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That would be the place for it then, just like Diderot quotes would belong in an article called Criticism of Christianity if such a thing exists, or even Criticism of Religion. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 00:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

It is also defined

Hi, can somebody point on where this "It is also defined more broadly" is explained throughout the article? --windyhead (talk) 08:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Atheism#Strong_vs._weak — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-12 13:42Z

Hi, so can you please point out where in this section is explained about (1) who defines atheism "more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism", and (2) what "It is also defined more broadly" means - is there some condition when it can be defined this way? or what? Thanks. --windyhead (talk) 09:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

There are four sources given for this. Is there a problem with the sources? I'm not sure what you mean by (2) - it's simply that the word has several definitions, so we say "It is also defined ...". Mdwh (talk) 10:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes sources are provided, but where it is explained about who defines atheism "more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism"? --windyhead (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact that we give references explains who defines it this way - i.e., it's those references that define it that way. If you mean, who in general uses that definition, I'm not sure how we could possible answer that, as lots of different people will use different definitions. What do you think it should say? Mdwh (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, it is still unclear which references give this definition, and what context they use providing this definition. There is lot of info in the section but no clear "those references also say that Atheism is ..., and the context for use such definition is ..." can be spotted. There are also sources for this given in the lead but you Brian said to look at Atheism#Strong_vs._weak for explanation. So if somebody would clarify this would be great. --windyhead (talk) 08:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The references that give this distinction are those listed at the end of that sentence: 4, 5, 6, 7. I'm not sure that there is any context here - the word simply has more than one definition. The "context" would be when referring to people who lack a belief in god. Also I'd disagree with Brian0918 - the distinction for the broadest "nontheism" definition is covered in the Implicit vs. explicit section. Does that make more sense? Mdwh (talk) 11:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

And who those sources are? What kind of group they make? Can this "It is also defined more broadly" be attributed correctly? --windyhead (talk) 16:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Please accept that referencing is not the same as quoting; to make the more broadly statement you only need to provide a sourced narrow definition (which is there) and a reference broader definition (which is there as well). Listing the first as narrow, automatically and undeniably logically (which is not synthesis) validates the claim that the existence of broader definition warrants the phrase "it is also defined more broadly" Arnoutf (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand you. Where is explained about who those sources are (who give broader definition)? What group they make? --windyhead (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

See Mdwh - sources 4,5,6,7 Arnoutf (talk) 21:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "who" - as we have said, you can see who the makes the statement by clicking on the reference numbers, which takes you to the references at the bottom of the page. I'm not sure we can say anything about any "group" they make, and trying to decide this would risk being original research. Mdwh (talk) 03:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

By "Who" I mean clarification about who those sources are. Where it is explained in article? If it is not explained, let's either clarify this or add back the clarification request [1] . --windyhead (talk) 08:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• Who they are (their names) & their writings have been identified. They do not all belong to any single "religious" group. Btw, Jonathan Sarfati, whom you identified as a "Christian philosopher", is/was a physical scientist and has no credentials as a philosopher that I can see. He also either did not read the entire definition in EB, had a different edition, or conveniently omitted considering the rest of the article. Even what he quotes from EB includes rejection of belief as a form of atheism - and rejection of belief without assertion of non-existence is also a form of WEAK atheism --JimWae (talk) 08:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• Sarfati includes "for the atheist, the nonexistence of God is a certainty" as part of the EB definition - that is NOT in the current EB article at least, and likely never was. --JimWae (talk) 08:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Agnosticism can be seen as a form of weak atheism

Hi, the "Strong vs. weak" section contains While agnosticism can be seen as a form of weak atheism,[38] while source provided says different: “Those who fail to believe in God because they think that the truth-value of ‘God exists’ is uncertain may be called agnostic negative atheists, or agnostics for short.” . --windyhead (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Where is that different in meaning (the wording is different, but copying full lines is plagiarism anyway)? Arnoutf (talk) 21:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, regarding your plagiarism argument, please see [2] - Avoid copyright paranoia - Quotation, even without attribution, is specifically allowed in international copyright law, and single sentences are generally not protectable --windyhead (talk) 09:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, if we are going to use the term "agnostic negative atheists", we need to define it. Alternatively, how about simply saying "a form of atheism"? I think it's reasonable that the reference considered "agnostic negative atheism" to be a form (i.e., a subset) of atheism, and avoids using the term "weak atheism". Mdwh (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Agnosticism as a philophical school of thought is a statement about knowledge rather than belief; atheism is a statement about belief (or rather lack thereof). In the same regard "gnostic" atheists "know" AND believe there is no Invisible Friend, while "agnostic" atheists believe there is no Invisible Friend but do not claim definitive knowledge about "Its" nonexistence. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 04:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well indeed, another problem is that agnosticsm means many different things, some of which are not the same concept as weak atheism. Possibly we should word it the other way round - rather than saying agnosticism is weak atheism, say weak atheism is a form of agnosticism? That's closer to what the source actually says, and avoids the problem of other definitions of agnosticism. Mdwh (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no 'can be seen'. As a 'weak atheis' agnosticism IS atheism. Agnosticism is a lack of belief in something, neutrality, which is what atheism is. Tyciol (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's go back to my earlier remark that the source in my view does support the phrase. A phrase need not be verbatim identical to have the exact same meaning (and unquoted plagiarism while perhaps no copyright violation may still be considerd unethical). The issue is, whether this phrase is sufficiently similar to the definition of weak atheism a few lines above. Summarised the source state that Agnostics (Those who fail to believe in God because they think that the truth-value of ‘God exists’ is uncertain) are equal to agnostic negative atheists.

ie Agnostics = agnostic negative atheists.

The article introduces weak atheistms as: "Philosophers such as Antony Flew[35] and Michael Martin[24] have contrasted strong (positive) atheism with weak (negative) atheism. Strong atheism is the explicit affirmation that gods do not exist. Weak atheism includes all other forms of non-theism."

ie Weak atheism = Negative atheisms

If we substitute weak for negative in the source at agnosticism the source now states: agnostic weak atheists; where agnostic in this phrase obviously implies it one kind of form of weak atheism (ie the specific agnostic form)
The line in the article reads "a form of weak atheism" - the source stands for "the specific form agnostic weak atheist". It seems to me the source clearly supports the claim. Arnoutf (talk) 10:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Arnoutf, what you're doing here is clearly described under WP:SYNTH. And "unquoted plagiarism" can be put in quotes --windyhead (talk) 11:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The quote does (verbatim) support that agnostisicm is a form (ie the agnostic form) of negative atheism. The substitution weak atheism=negative atheism may be on the border op WP:SYNTH. Whether interpretation of the claim "agnosticism is a form of negative atheism" as "agnosticism is a form of weak atheism" is synthesis I am not sure, as I am not 100% sure these terms are full synonyms. If they are, the claim is supported if they are not, I agree it is a bit a of a synthesis issue. Arnoutf (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Using shorting method proposed here will let us to go further to conclusions such as : "agnosticism is a form of weak atheism" => "agnosticism is a form of weak atheism" which is no near to what the source say because source doesn't say "or atheists for short", it does say "or agnostics for short". So this method of transforming the definition is not applicable here. Let's be strict with definitions and stick to what the source says. --windyhead (talk) 13:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The source says "agnosticism" is the short form of "agnostic negative atheism" (verbatim). Agnosticism is one of many possible forms of philosophical stances (trivial). Hence "agnostic negative atheism" is the specific "agnostic form of negative atheism" (still straightforward). This would lead to the line "agnosticism is the agnostic form of negative atheism" (still what the source says). However to state that "agnosticism" is a "agnostic form of something" is exact word repetition (tautological), and the second instance of agnostic can be removed without changing the meaning in any way. (removing negative, or with weak is not at all straightforward as that word is not exactly repeated in the word agnosticism) Arnoutf (talk) 14:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and I just showed before how this method will let us to conclude something different to what source say. This sentence is wrong: "However to state that "agnosticism" is a "agnostic form of something" is exact word repetition (tautological), and the second instance of agnostic can be removed without changing the meaning in any way." Again: when we are talking about definitions, let's be strict and stick to what the source says. --windyhead (talk) 14:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

It does not seem the source was out to give a comprehensive definition of agnosticism (the wording "may be" is a dead give away in my opinion) - hence verbatim sticking to the source is in any case likely to be omitting its context and therefore not sticking to the idea of the source. We would need to copy in a much larger section of the source to prevent that out of context problem. The source can still be used for support (as it is now).

Seeing this, I think we fundamentally agree about this, and I would welcome 3rd party input in this discussion; therefore I will not respond for a while, to see how others respond. Arnoutf (talk) 15:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem with your argument is that there are multiple conceptions for "atheism" (weak, strong, etc). The whole debate comes from the fact that agnostics don't recognize the weak definition. Your claim that saying "X is a form of weak atheism" implies (by removing the descriptor "weak") that "X is a form of atheism" is false. By removing the descriptor, you remove the concept that was identified by it, and create ambiguity - which conception of "atheism" is being referenced? You cannot drop the "weak" without creating total ambiguity, so the phrase can't be shortened any further. Thus your whole argument against using it in the first place is bogus. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-17 15:18Z

Hi, I agree with you, and your words can be used to argument why "agnostic negative atheism" shouldn't be shorted to "a form of weak atheism". It's unclear however why you changed article sentence from something what can be found in a source to something what source doesn't say. --windyhead (talk) 15:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

For readability. The whole section talks about "weak" vs "strong". Whether or not the source uses the same label does not affect the concept represented by those labels. How readable would Burma be if the article kept switching back and forth between "Burma" and "Myanmar" simply to stick to the wording of the sources? — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-17 15:51Z

Hi, there is no rule in wikipedia allowing article to say something of questionable accuracy with the goal of "readability". --windyhead (talk) 16:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Then question the accuracy. What's your problem with the wording? (Note: saying "it's not the same wording as the source" is not a valid argument) — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-17 16:26Z

Hi, this whole thread is about the problem with the wording and how it's invalid. And "it's not the same wording as the source" is also absolutely correct here since we are talking about a definition. --windyhead (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The existence of text on a page is not by itself evidence of rationale. I have already invalidated your claim in the argument with Arnoutf. Is there another claim? — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-17 19:01Z

Since you changed the source and the wording let's move forward. Please provide a quote from the source confirming "agnosticism entails weak atheism" --windyhead (talk) 19:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

"But agnosticism is compatible with negative atheism in that agnosticism entails negative atheism." We have already established earlier in the article that strong/weak are labels representing the same concepts as positive/negative, so the rewording for readability is justified. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-17 19:32Z

Atheist philosophers

People who don't like the article to tell that philosophers from "Strong vs. weak" section are atheists: do you have arguments, based on wikipedia rules, to support your position? --windyhead (talk) 15:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't Antony Flew a deist? And Jacques Maritain who talked about positive and negative atheism (which is also referred to by "philosophers") was a Catholic. Mdwh (talk) 00:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, let's not touch Jacques Maritain here. Antony Flew was an atheist at the time he wrote the work referenced in section (1976) . --windyhead (talk) 07:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean "let's not touch Jacques Maritain here"? It would mean that your proposed change [3] is incorrect, as not just atheists have made these distinctions. Yes, Antony Flew was an atheist when he wrote that, but we can't now refer to him as an "atheist". We'd have to rewrite the sentence to say something like "who was an atheist at the time", which would probably make it rather clumsy. And is there reason to believe that he no longer believes in such a distinction now that he's not an atheist? It's not clear why his atheism is important? I agree with Old Moonraker - they're notable on account of them being philosophers, not that they're atheists. Mdwh (talk) 10:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, that change [4] doesn't touch Jacques Maritain. If you insist we can put a remark regarding Antony Flew into a reference. "is there reason to believe that he no longer believes in such a distinction now that he's not an atheist" - proposed change has no claims about this. --windyhead (talk) 13:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Jacques Maritain is an example of a non-atheist philosopher who made a distinction between positive and negative atheism, so it is misleading to restrict the statement just to atheists. And I agree with the comments below, it's not clear why we need to identify them as atheists? Are there non-atheists are somehow dispute these distinctions? Mdwh (talk) 01:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, that statement doesn't talk about Jacques Maritain, and I've added non-atheist opinion disputing atheist definition. --windyhead (talk) 15:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what that statement talks about - the point is that it's not only atheist philosophers who make this distinction, so I don't know why you persist in adding the "atheist" qualifier? Your addition only made it more misleading, suggesting that it was only atheists who made the distinction. As for the opinion, we already cite Britannica, so I'm not sure we need to list everyone who uses a particular definition? Also I feel the claim is dubious, since Britannica goes onto say "a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God", thus supporting the weak definition as well as the strong definition. Mdwh (talk) 03:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, "it's not only atheist philosophers who make this distinction" - but now there are only atheists in that sentence, so correctly attributing their wording as said by atheists is absolutely correct. --windyhead (talk) 08:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, since it was asked for non-atheists disputing atheist philosophers, I'm not sure what arguments people will bring now for a revert removing added opinion [5] ? --windyhead (talk) 16:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is it relevant whether the philosophers were atheist or not. And anyway it appears that at least some of them are not (indeed Maritan, who is mentioned in the section). So I agree with Mdwh and would not make any explicit statements. Arnoutf (talk) 11:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The fact that they no longer identify themselves as atheists in some cases seems to point to removing the qualifier altogether and just linking to their articles so people can read about their views. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-09-17 20:24Z