Talk:Anti-Polish sentiment

This article has gone through VfD. Please see the first voting and the second voting.

Archived discussion

• Talk:Anti-Polonism Archive of discussion in Polish

I moved here the segments of discussion conducted in Polish, to make the page easier to read for users who don't know the language. This might introduce some discontinuities.

• Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive 2 Discussions concluded by July 31, 2005 are archived here (contains history till August 18, 2005).
• Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive 3 Discussions until August 14 2005 are archived here.
• Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive 4 Long discussion between users Nightbeast and Molobo on the Germany section,
• Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive 5 Until September 1
• Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive 6 Long discussion on Rudi Palwelka
• Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive 7

Harald Schmidt Show

I try to separate the arguments about Harald Schmidt and Erika Steinbach. Please keep them separate. All the small print from this section is reproduced in the next section. Austrian 21:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but a "Comedy-Show" shouldn´t be a basis for a topic in a Encyclopedia. Or I am not right?

Yesterday I saw a Comedy-Show on polish Polsat. And they make fun of/in german (Also they said "Deutschland, Deutschland, über alles". Yes, this is the kind of polish humor.). Does German speak then of Anti-Germanism? Your guys are very funny when you are using a comedy as an example for "german media". Should I must remember some polish guys of this picture: [[1]] (And this is not a Comedy-magazine!). Polish Media make too much panic and trouble, and some Polish make also too much panic. Like the topic Erika Steinbach, nobody knows her in Germany. But every Polish does!?

Please remove this parts or change them. First of all it have nothing in common with the topic "Anti-polonism", or I'am wrong?. --Jonny84 11.55, 3rd September 2005 (UTC)

You're right there. But the Harald Schmidt claim is already sufficiently exposed as nonsense (see some topics above). This page needs a lot of help so if you would like to stay and help with the mediation, I'd really appreciate it. Reasonable contributors are especially needed on this page so you're welcome, Jonny.NightBeAsT 13:02, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

You are wrong on all points-Erica Stainbach is a member of a very large organisation visitied by top German politicians, secondy the jokes Harald Schimdt reflect stereotypes persistant in German society that led to mass murder and persecution of Poles. User:Molobo 16:38, 6 September 2005

You cherrypicked and challenged two of Jonny's points jumping to another conclusion that he was wrong on all points. Who is Erica Stainbach? Let's check the German wikipedia. According to the German wikipedia, Nach anhaltender, äußerst kritischer Berichterstattung ist sie heute in Polen weit bekannter als in Deutschland. Eine Fotomontage des polnischen Nachrichtenmagazins Wprost präsentierte sie in SS-Uniform auf Kanzler Schröder reitend. (= After continuous, exceedingly critical reporting she is today more well-known in Poland than in Germany. A photomontage of the Polish news magazine Wprost presented her in SS-uniform riding on Chacellor Schröder.) Of course she has meet with top German politicians as one of almost 600 members of the German parliament. And as for your Harald Schmidt exaggeration: aren't there comedians in Poland who also sometimes make fun of other nations? Was Jonny wrong there? OMG the Guardian Unlimited has published an article against football fans, even headlined "Football fans are idiots", oh no, there'll be mass murders and persecution of hooligans... (btw also another example of how headlines should not be mistaken for facts). There's no harm in jokes. Laughing is healthy, so don't be in a huff when also Poland is sometimes joked about or do you feel that your honour is insulted then? Don't take it personally.NightBeAsT 20:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Steinbach didn't meet with Stroiber or Schroeder or Merkel in Parliament.All of those people come regularly to meetings of her organisations and make speeches to them.As to your "there is no harm in jokes" there is if it reinforces negative stereotypes that led to mass murder and genocide of Polish people by Germans.--Molobo 02:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Do you know that the Harald Schmidt Show is defunct since 2 years? Do you know? And what is the common of an entertainer and the World War 2? You´re absurd. And you can be sure that this show is not representing and demonstrating "Anti-polonism". You´re making panic. Do you ever been in Germany? Who gave polish media the right to defame other countries, should they maybe forgot their own history? And if you like it or not, to say something (bad) about poland or criticising Poland or making jokes about Poland isn´t alike/even anti-polonism. And come on, the WW2 end 60 years ago, Todays-Germany isn´t Nazi-Germany. Jonny84 22:54, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

And I feel very ashamed, when I read opinions like yours. Poland and Poles are known in Germany as very friendly and hospitably. Many young people are very interested in Poland. And I´m very glad that the people don´t know the way polish media is mauling Germany. Jonny84 23:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

My dear Molobo! It isn't Jonny who is wrong, it is YOU! You have showed us on more than one occasion that you do absolutely not know what you are talking about. First of all, Erika Steinbach is NOT a very importand person leading a huge political organization she is just the chairman of a organization of a minority in Germany. And That's why she's visited by politicians. Our political leaders do also visit the chairmen of e.g. the organization of the slavian minority, the danish minority (which -by the way- is a member of the Parliament in Schleswig-Holstein) or the muslim minority. Does that have to mean that these Minorities ant their Chairmen play an importand political role in Germany? Well, except of the danish minority, NO! Micha.

She is so unimportant that Merkel had given her support in her speeches.--Molobo 10:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Molobo! If you are referring to Angela Merkel's speeches, show us which speech you mean. She publishes every speech on the internet. I'm pretty sure you can't find any! Micha.

Erika Steinbach

I changed some comments about Steinbach to small print in the "Schmidt" section above, and reproduce them here. I hope I did not make a mistake with the attributions.-- Austrian 21:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Like the topic Erika Steinbach, nobody knows her in Germany. But every Polish does!? --Jonny84 11.55, 3rd September 2005 (UTC)

You are wrong on all points- Erica Stainbach is a member of a very large organisation visitied by top German politicians, [...] -- User:Molobo 16:38, 6 September 2005

You cherrypicked and challenged two of Jonny's points jumping to another conclusion that he was wrong on all points. Who is Erica Stainbach? Let's check the German wikipedia. According to the German wikipedia, Nach anhaltender, äußerst kritischer Berichterstattung ist sie heute in Polen weit bekannter als in Deutschland. Eine Fotomontage des polnischen Nachrichtenmagazins Wprost präsentierte sie in SS-Uniform auf Kanzler Schröder reitend. (= After continuous, exceedingly critical reporting she is today more well-known in Poland than in Germany. A photomontage of the Polish news magazine Wprost presented her in SS-uniform riding on Chacellor Schröder.) Of course she has meet with top German politicians as one of almost 600 members of the German parliament. [...] -- NightBeAsT 20:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Steinbach didn't meet with Stroiber or Schroeder or Merkel in Parliament.All of those people come regularly to meetings of her organisations and make speeches to them.As to your "there is no harm in jokes" there is if it reinforces negative stereotypes that led to mass murder and genocide of Polish people by Germans.--Molobo 02:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

My dear Molobo! It isn't Jonny who is wrong, it is YOU! You have showed us on more than one occasion that you do absolutely not know what you are talking about. First of all, Erika Steinbach is NOT a very importand person leading a huge political organization she is just the chairman of a organization of a minority in Germany. And That's why she's visited by politicians. Our political leaders do also visit the chairmen of e.g. the organization of the slavian minority, the danish minority (which -by the way- is a member of the Parliament in Schleswig-Holstein) or the muslim minority. Does that have to mean that these Minorities ant their Chairmen play an importand political role in Germany? Well, except of the danish minority, NO! Micha.

She is so unimportant that Merkel had given her support in her speeches.--Molobo 10:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Molobo! If you are referring to Angela Merkel's speeches, show us which speech you mean. She publishes every speech on the internet. I'm pretty sure you can't find any! Micha.

Suggested addition

Since the article is protected, I can't add this myself. What I want to do is have a mention of Lufthansa's signing of a codeshare agreement with LOT Polish, which led the way to LOT being accepted into Star Alliance. This shows German support of Poland economicly, something that isn't mentioned in the "in Germany" section. Bayerischermann 00:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Do not get me wrong but was it Lufthansa that accepted codeshare with LOT or LOT that accepted codeshare with Lufthansa ? According to IATA, Poland had the second most dynamic airline market worldwide in 2004 (with 40% growth rate if I remember correctly). A new promising market is not something to be neglected these days. I'm not suggesting that it's not nice to be in the same alliance, but the facts need to be interpreted carefully. Anyway, I appreciate the motion towards showing signs of friendship instead of hatred or dislike. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Sure, but before that is possible, the article needs to change hands. Molobo's aim is not to give a fair picture of Germany... there ought to be a resolving of the dispute because once Molobo can edit the article again, there's just gonna be a new flood of slander, overstatements, misinterpretations, speculations etc. It just cannot go on like this, so we may well need your help too, Bayerischermann.NightBeAsT 12:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Just to clear up the codeshare agreement thing:

"In April, LOT and Lufthansa signed a preliminary strategic partnership agreement and a code-share agreement on joint operation of air services between Poland and Germany. Both agreements opened for the Polish carrier a way to the membership in the Star Alliance." [2]. (There's both Polish and English versions of that page on LOT Polish's website.)"

As for the editing problems, I'll try to help out then. I'm both Polish and German, so you don't have to worry about me "choosing a side". Bayerischermann 04:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The economical relation between LOT and german firms is irrelevant to the article.If you want to create an seperate article about efforts to eradicate German antipolonism be my guest.We can certainly link it here. --Molobo 16:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

It could easily be implemented into the "Germans Polish Friendship" by saying:

"Germany also frequently conduct business in Poland and with Polish companies. One example is the strategic partnership agreement and code-share agreement between LOT Polish and Lufthansa, which led the way to LOT Polish to join Star Alliance." Bayerischermann 18:52, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see how normal relations on economic plateau have to do with alledged German-Polish friendship.Furthermore I question if such thing exists at all.Public opinion surveys would be welcomed here as to perception of both nations towards each other, as well as public surveys of German knowledge about Poland.This however is beyond the scope of the article here.German-Polish relations or perhaps Attempts at eradicating traditional German antipolonism is a good title in my view for a seperate article which could be linked here. --Molobo 20:19, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

You don't see how economic relations have to do with Polish-German friendship? While I would agree that perhaps German-Polish relations deserve a seperate article, I still fail to see why you don't believe economic relations have to do with general relations... Bayerischermann 03:32, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Rename(s)

I know this has been gone over on VfD and not to doubt the good faith and hard work of people editing this page but this is so absolutely and utterly a neologism something should be done. Add an L and you could interpret Anti-Pollonism as the anger of allergy sufferers toward ragweed. I'd suggest splitting into smaller country specific articles with appropriate descriptors. All google gives is wiki-mirrors. Marskell 14:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

A similar idea was proposed above under #What I would like to see happen with this article. Note that google gives these entries for Anti-polonism:

• http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=7&url=http%3A//www.forum-znak.org.pl/index-en.php%3Ft%3Dprzeglad%26id%3D967&ei=4IggQ9nbB76iiAKC7Jy4CA
• http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zisocultpol/zionp6.html
• http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=15&url=http%3A//www.piasa.org/62annualmeeting.pdf&ei=QYkgQ_3UH7eYiAKJtJy4CA
• and many more

(Surprisingly, none of these is about German anti-Polonism). As for the splitting, were other anti-Xism articles (e.g. mentioned in the section I pointed to) split in the similar way? Maybe there are other arguments to back this idea? Alx-pl D 19:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

!! Polish-German relations doesn't exist. That would be an obvious place to move much of this stuff. There are already five history of Poland articles from the 10th century to 1939. Surely much of this could be placed under headers there. I can understand a desire to highlight it with "Oppression of..." but I think relative scope needs to be borne in mind. If an existing article logically covers things, utilize it first.

As far as the Google test I don't think "many more" is quite accurate. There are less than 800 hits for the term. In Google terms that's nothing, and while Poles who speak English or academics may occasionally use the term it really isn't in currency. I think we're being overly prescriptive in placing it here; As the VfD noted, it admits it's a neologism in the second paragraph.

As for other precedents, there is an Anti-French sentiment in the United States article, (Anti-Polish sentiment in Germany?) which actually existed long before the main Francophobia article which was just added yesterday. Brief articles for Anglophobia and Russophobia exist (50 000 and 25 000 hits respectively) as of course does Anti-Americanism (1.5 million hits). Anti-Australian sentiment exists as well but I question its inclusion here in the same way I question this article.

My opinion is leave anti-X or -phobia articles for current or former hegemons: U.K., France, Germany, Russia, U.S., China and Japan. These countries have excited negative feelings across the globe and across time. Smaller countries with "negative opinions of" that are essentially regional shouldn't be included in the same way; it really does open the door for soapboxes and dubious neologisms. Marskell 09:51, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

EDIT: Statement retracted. ;) Bayerischermann 04:16, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

But of course the edit history is still there. Anti-Polish sentiment exists in Poland's immediate neighbours. It's not a global phenomenon and no its not equivalent to Anti-Semitisim. If the problem is effectively bi-lateral a relations article is better. Marskell 08:43, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Grrrh! You shouldn't be looking at the edit history if I retract my statement! Bayerischermann 04:23, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Hey sorry. Your retraction initially stated that it was "due to (your) being scared of a hostile reply" which seemed an obvious attempt to fish for responses. Marskell 10:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Poll

An [RfC] has been created for this page. I decided to do a poll informally as I think people will show up here rather than Wikipedia:Polls. Note, no survey is binding on Polls or an a particular Talk. Please note support.

---

• Option 1:
  • Start German-Polish relations (which would include Prussia) and Russo-Polish relations. About half the article can be moved to the former and the latter may absorb some as well.
  • Place remainder of content in the already quite comprehensive Polish history pages.
  • When done delete the page or leave as a stub ("Academic word etc...see A, B, C...")

• Support. Marskell 09:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. (Anti-Polonism is current and in more countries than Germany and Russia) Bayerischermann 04:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

---

• Option 2:
  • Simply rename the page to a comprehensible descriptor such as Historical persecution of Poles and leave as is.

---

• Option 3:
  • The status quo.

• Strongly Support. Bayerischermann 04:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

---

• Option 4
  • Rename the article to Anti-Polish sentiment (which will leave a redirect from Anti-Polonism).
  • Change the preamble accordingly with explicit statement that the article covers also Anti-Polonism.
  • Extend the content.
  • Mention in each section title whether it is about anti-Polonism or about anti-Polish sentiment.

• Support assuming POV is fixed as well. Groeck 16:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

---

• Option 5
  • Move to another article (for instance Contemporary anti-Polonism) the content after 1945

---

• Option 6
  • Remove the content after 1945 as it is difficult to find reliable sources which present the subject

---

If consensus emerges I or some other "disinterested party" can request an unblock and immediately make the changes. Marskell 09:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

"Mention in each section title whether it is about anti-Polonism or about anti-Polish sentiment." In what meaningful way will the two terms differ? I'd broadly support a move to this title incidentally though I still think German-Polish relations could more or less absorb this. Marskell 13:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

There is still Jewish anti-Polonism, and in fact there are more documentation on the contemporary anti-Polonism among Jews than on German anti-Polonism. This is not included in the article though, since the editors are biased and I had very little chances to introduce suitable material to the article. Similarly, latest political events gave rise to occasional questions about Russian anti-Polonism. This is not included in the article. Alx-pl D 13:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, Anti-Polish sentiment is definitely more comprehensible to an English language user. Unfortunately it gets even fewer google hits than Anti-Polonism (less than 400). Anyone else got a comment? Marskell 17:50, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

This argument has already been exercised. Anti-polonism is not a neologism. Take a look at the page Wikipedia:Google test#Google bias. It states that a few hundreds of google occurrences should be enough. This search gives 785 hits (we should substract ca 100 for Wikipedia mirrors) and this for alternative spelling antipolish gives 277 hits. The section Wikipedia:Google test#Foreign languages and non-Latin scripts suggests that we can also take into account searches in other languages, so this search for the Polish equivalent gives 20,100 hits, this search for the German equivalent gives 158 hits. You can also find a quite respectful sources which use the term, e.g.: Cooperative, Journal of Historical Review.

I agree that the term Anti-Polish sentiment is even less represented, but this can partly be attributed to the fact that wikipedia mirrors boost the term Anti-Polonism in Google now. The aim of my proposal is to give a better justifiaction for the current wide scope of the article. Alx-pl D 19:37, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, after initially agreeing with suggestions for changes you seem to be backing away, so I don't know. Technicality not a neologism perhaps, but at least hard to comprehend. I stand by the fact that this article asserts a regional (and largely time-bound) phenomenon and that A-B relations articles and the already comprehensive Polish history pages can cover it. The suggestion of Anti-German bias has some merit. How many WWII pics you need? Doesn't this unintentionally verify the fact that this is parochial? I found nothing on Google images that would indicate a broader, modern range for the topic—no book covers, no signs, no editorial cartoons. Anti-French produces 265 images and some relevant ones off the top; Anti-Polish produces 8 none of which could be used here. Perhaps you'd find more searching in Polish or German but that would only confirm to me the regional character of the topic. Marskell 13:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Just to clarify. I agree that the phenomenon is regional and it concerns to much descent Polish neighbouring countries. It also concerns USA and Israel though, as many Jews emigrated to the countries from Poland. However, I think that you mentioned somewhere that anti-Polonism is a neologism, so I wanted to clarify it. I support the idea of the poll, but I think the current form is premature. Although, I think the questions you proposed should be included in the final poll. Moreover, I think the idea of the poll should be supported by all the editors around. If it isn't then ist results will be either meaningless or boycotted by some of the editors here and this will give rise to just another edit war. Alx-pl D 19:27, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Seems to me the problem with this poll is that its result might not matter. From the context and experience, it appears that some editors will not agree with any change to the article to make it NPOV, and may simply revert all such changes. Groeck 16:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected

This article has been protected for ages. I've unprotected and suggest that you all just try editing and see what happens. Works nine times out of ten. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 10:54, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

nominated for deletion

Hey Guys! Even thougt Tony Sidaway does not want me to do that I nominated this Bullshit for deletion. I hope for your support! Best Greetings, Micha.

And here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Polonism

How to end a fight against all the laws of reason

Molobo has just reverted all the disputed claims concerning German and French "Anti-Polonism" despite an enormous amount of discussion and complete lack of support for his proposals. If anyone disagrees with Molobo's unannouncend but certainly not surprising move which cannot achieve anything other than plunging the article into another edit and revert wars, tell me so on this page. I'd like some feedback on (and possibly help with) more serious and defining steps in dispute resolution. Thank you.NightBeAsT 19:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, the page is on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography for 3 days. Let's hope more people will join and react. I suggest also to concentrate on a single issue. Alx-pl D 19:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Polonism in Russia

The claims:

• Soviet propaganda that showed Polish Home Army accused of collaboration with Nazi Germany is present in Russian media.
• Polish contribution towards Allied effort in WW2 is disputed.

aren't still appropriately supported by sources while they should as these are accusations. The source that supports the claim:

• Russian policy makers have justified Molotov-Ribbentrop pact

contains no evidence that Putin said this in the context of hatered towards Polish nation.

The final source from Gazeta Wyborcza is an interesting evidence, but the content is slightly different. The main anti-Polish content is:

• the repetition of the lie about Polish concentration camps organised during the 1920 campaign
• insignificance of the Polish resistance movement during WW2

It is also worth mentioning that the site on which the information was presented is not representative for Russian media. On the other hand it is commonly regarded in Russia as the place where the official explanation of Putin's politics is presented. Alx-pl D 19:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Here is the article in strana.ru Gazeta Wyborcza refers to. Alx-pl D 02:57, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Beyond Belief

This page, and the attendant 'Article' and quite beyond belief for a encyclopaedia. If Poland's neighbours are in any way anti-Polish it is surely because for 1000 years the Poles have invaded each and every one of them at some point, and continued to antagonise them all well into the 20th century. Frankly these pages are a disgrace and just pander to Polish paranoia and propaganda. They should be taken down and barred if Wikipedia is to retain any credibility whatever.

Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________________________

AGREED! I tried to bring some sense into this discussion, but ther are so many paranoid Pepole here, that I had to realize that this is impossible. The best thing is to bash this bullshit. Micha.

Disputed

This discussion Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4 is still active. Alx-pl D 19:55, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

rubish

Stupid made up stuff by Poles, whining about how the world hates them. Go and kill someone in Iraq when you are frustated. -83.129.19.18

Agreed! But not every Pole does support this bullshit. I as a Pole living in Germany am deeply ashamed about the fact, that this article draws a picture of hate and paranoia in the name of Poland and Polish people. But as long as such crazy people like Molobo, Witkacy & co exist there is nothing we can do against it. Believe me, I tried it... Best greetings, Micha.

I know, as a german living in the Ruhr Area I have plenty polish friends. They would be disgusted about what its written in their name. -83.129.10.164 00:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

So, just show it to them! Maybe they'll be able to show everybody, that this Molobo-Witkacy-Bullshit is not true. Micha.

---

I presume these three edits were a single user trying to create consensus for himself. Now, this is a no-go but the more I look at this page the more I sympathize with the general idea (however crudely pushed forward). I just removed Polish Black Legend from the lead. There is no Polish Black Legend. It wasn't properly cited internally or externally. And if, as the most recent edit after mine is true, Anti-Polonism does not appear in Polish dictionaries (anti-Canadianism does not appear in the dictionary of Canadian English as a point of comparison) then I do have to wonder about the validity of this page. Assuming the info on this page does deserve mention somewhere does the article title make sense? It would be nice if RfC generated an abundance of comment (it never does) so this question is directed to anyone still watching otherwise: take a step back and ask yourself "would this make sense under a different descriptor?" Marskell 23:13, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I took seriously the suggestion from the anonymous edit and I found out that the main dictionary of Polish published by PWN ("Słownik języka polskiego"), at least in its on-line version, does not contain antypolonizm [3], similarly the encyclopedia of the publisher [4], and the dictionary of the words with foreign origin [5]. The same holds for an on-line encyclopedia Wiem [6]. Alx-pl D 18:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

However Alx a simple search of internet reveals that the word is used in dictionary of subjects in Polish National Library.I am sure it is pure coincidence you missed it.Hope it helps you. Słownik Języka Haseł Przedmiotowych Biblioteki Narodowej www.bn.org.pl/doc/jhp/nh/01_04.doc

--Molobo 10:06, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The phrase concerning the dictionaries states to be precise that its Polish counterpart antypolonizm does not appear in Polish major dictionaries and encyclopedias either. The dictionary you found is a really minor dictionary the intended audience of which are librarians so inclusion of the information does not falsify the statement. Moreover, if the editors decided to add information about the dictionary status of the word in English and the dictionary status of the word in Polish is so peculiar, the information must be included to the article. Alx-pl D 14:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand on which basis the information about Polish major dictionaries has been removed. The dictionary Molobo mentions - "Słownik Języka Haseł Przedmiotowych Biblioteki Narodowej" - is not a major Polish dictionary. It is not a major Polish encyclopedia either. I don't deny that the library is a major institution, but this dictionary is simply directed for librarians and thus has no wider audience. Once more, the term does not occur in the dictionaries and encyclopedias I mentioned above. It also does not appear in paper sources like "Słownik Języka Polskiego" by PWN (I've checked the 1994 edition), "Słownik Wyrazów Obcych. Nowy" by PWN (I've checked the 1995 edition) and in the recently published (2005) "Encyklopedia Gazety Wyborczej" (the material in which is just a big encyclopedia corpus from PWN). As these are the dictionaries that really have wide audience and good respect, I don't see reason why this information should be removed from the article. Alx-pl D 19:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Changes

To go over it:

• I re-removed "Polish Black Legend." There is no source—there is nothing. Prove it or lose it.
• I re-inserted the fact that the word does not appear in Polish dictionaries. Alx-pl seems to have done the good faith homework and proved as such.
• I removed completely Anti-Polonism in France. It was POV top-to-bottom with no sources, no proof, no attributions. For instance: "despite the fact that it brought more jobs to French people." How do you know this? Honestly, it is unproveable. Marskell 22:39, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"I re-removed "Polish Black Legend." There is no source—there is nothing. Prove it or lose it." Please read the article before tempering with it. Dr. Dariusz Łukasiewicz: Czarna legenda Polski: Obraz Polski i Polaków w Prusach 1772-1815 (The black legend of Poland: the image of Poland and Poles in Prussia between 1772-1815) Wydawnictwo Poznanskiego Towarzystwa Przyjaciól Nauk, 1995. Vol. 51 of history and social sciences series.ISBN 83-7063-148-7. Paper. In Polish with English and German summaries. "* I re-inserted the fact that the word does not appear in Polish dictionaries. Alx-pl seems to have done the good faith homework and proved as such." It appears in the subjects lists of Polish National Library. "* I removed completely Anti-Polonism in France. It was POV top-to-bottom with no sources, no proof, no attributions. For instance: "despite the fact that it brought more jobs to French people." How do you know this? Honestly, it is unproveable." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1409539/posts --Molobo 09:57, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Polish Black Legend. You're inclusion of this strikes me as OR which reading the summary seems to confirm. Find contemporary secondary or tertiary sources which use the term matter-of-factly and I'll buy it. Further, it reinforces what I've said a few times: this is primarily about historic German-Polish relations and the article title ought to reflect that.

Re-inserting dictionary point. I did not remove your point about the Polish National Library I only re-inserted the earlier point.

Anti-polonism in France. I was not suggesting that it doesn't exist only that the addition as it stood was POV. It's a series of straw men (He said x—of course he's wrong). Marskell 10:18, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

" Find contemporary secondary or tertiary sources which use the term matter-of-factly and I'll buy it"The book was written recently.As to blaming Poland see Pawelka speech. "I only re-inserted the earlier point." Which isn't true as the dictionary of Polish National Library has it. " was not suggesting that it doesn't exist only that the addition as it stood was POV" In which way.--Molobo 10:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The use Black Legend in the intro takes a time-bound and context-specific idea and presents it as a matter-of-fact, taken for granted point. This is not appropriate to a lead a paragraph and the description of the book I found notes it as documentation much more than interpretation, i.e. essentially primary not secondary. [7] Thus asserting a general Polish Black Legend in the lead qualifies as an inappropriate "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claim" (WP:NOR). Other sources on the book (surprise, surprise) were Wikipedia itself or mirrors. Searching "Polish Black Legend" (in quotes) gives a 110 results and you get one guess where most of them come from.

I will edit the para to the effect that it does not generally appear in dictionaries but the National Library is an exception.

France:

• "Despite the fact that it brought more jobs to French people" is absolutely POV and beyond proof. "I don't think the French economy is at risk..." is not proof, but a rather tepid opinion.
• "...a deeply religious nation..." Who in France is criticizing Poland's religious character (and plz don't do what's been done for Germany by pulling out an extreme commentator and presenting it as a nationwide opinion)?
• Presenting points only to undercut them is the slipperiest kind of POV: "'...a good opportunity to remain silent,' ignoring the fact that Poland had traditionally been a loyal ally of France." Marskell 11:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The deletion for POV of the paragraph denouncing France is in harmony with Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Martin_Schulz.27s_remark and Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#President_Chirac.27s_remark.

• "Poles are also blamed for unemployment in France after EU expansion" this is imprecise and is anti-polonistic only in your opinion
• "despite the fact that it brought more jobs to French people" is a clear point of view that not everybody in France seems to have and which serves as propaganda
• "Antipolish sentiment has grown in that country" this is only your point of view and sounds dishonest or arrogant (because you should know that you have no idea about anti-Polonism in France)
• "due to Poland's close relationship with United States". Sounds extremely conceited and made up. Source?
• "The fact that Poland remains both an US ally as well as a deeply religious nation, has led to enforcing of negative and antipolish views in several layers of European politics." Source?
• "Josep Borrell the President of European Parliament has been reported to express antipolish remarks several times, accusing Poland of "taking orders from USA"." Oh no! He seemed to criticise Poland's participation in the Iraq war! How anti-Polonistic to criticise a government!! Where are these reports saying it were anti-polish remarks by the way?
• "Another example of antipolonism sentiments are comments from Martin Schulz a member of European Parliament who demanded to silence polish representatives calling them "hooligans" (during the WWII the term "polnische Banditen" was commonly used by German propaganda) during European Parliament session on 27.10.2004" *Cough-cough* Martin Schulz is German, not French, and he called a Britain, not a Pole, a hooligan. See Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Martin_Schulz.27s_remark
• "Shortly after the Polish EU accession, when the Polish government expressed its solidarity with the American war on terror, French president Jacques Chirac remarked they had missed "a good opportunity to remain silent" The "war on terror" or the Iraq war? Surely it's not a POV to mingle these events, is it? And calling Chirac's criticism as far as the Iraq war is concerned "anti-Polonistic" is not only completely biased; it is insane in my opinion.
• "ignoring the fact that Poland had traditionally been a loyal ally to France", stated ignoring the fact that Wikipedia relies heavily on an NPOV.

So ... this was the entire French anti-Polonism paragraph. Now, your "Polish Black legend" and the doorstep-belief: first of all it may be from a book. Honestly, you cannot ask us to believe you blindly there or buy a book. 'God exists! You don't believe me? Buy my book!' Anyway, to say that Anti-Polonistic is often associated with it is at best your opinion. I associate it with "Anti-Monopoly", an attempt to equate Anti-Polonism to Anti-Semitism and cheap copycatting of the (existing) word "Anti-Americanism". Who can be able to state how something is associated by people except for God? Has someone looked into everybody's minds again? This is just biased nonsense in the lead paragraph.NightBeAsT 12:18, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Please direct your complaints to various authors using the term antipolonism.As to the book if you are interested in changing the article you should read it, before making judgments about it. --Molobo 13:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

"Please direct your complaints to various authors using the term antipolonism?" What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with whether your addition about France was POV. Again, a single work (dealing, apparently, with Prussia 1772 - 1815, which is what I meant by "time-bound and "context specific") does not allow us to assert a "Polish Black Legend" that has no obvious basis. Marskell 14:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Since the term is used in scholary work I see no reason to deny its existance. --Molobo 18:21, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

nominated for deletion again!

Hope for the support of everybody, who is deeply ashamed about this Bullshit! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Polonism Best greetings, Michal.

I know there is precedents for stopping short VfD that have already occurred recently, but you should ask a disinterested admin to do so. No one involved should take it upon themselves to cut short a VfD. Marskell 15:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

This one was not "recently". The issue is not precedents, but policy. Please read it carefully. On the other hand, groundless renominations may be treated as disruption and shut down. I suggest to let this one be, to reaffirm the position, but the third one will not go. mikka (t) 18:18, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Molobo is sooo afraid...

...that he has to remove the Vote-for-deletion-tag! Are you ashamed of your lies or what all the intelligent people might think of you? Or did you forget to steal a brain?

Please no personal attacks. Your opinions on the page are clear. Marskell 17:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Just because you had to steal a brain, doesn't mean anybody else had to! Voting for deletion already happened and there is no need for another one. We're not going to repeat the voting until the polonophobes strike it lucky! Space Cadet 17:57, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia specifically allows for re-noms. Check "closure" here: Wikipedia:Guide to deletion. A two month old keep vote is not a blanket excuse to stop criticisms of the page. "...Polonophobes strike it lucky!" is senseless and bad faith. I consider removing the tag vandalism and will revert accordingly. Marskell 18:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Serious reasons for the vote must be given.Using argument "this is bullshit" isn't an argument.Neither is complaining that history of the region isn't nice.Are we to delete every article that deals in persecution of one group of another ?--Molobo 18:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The nom is cursory but does state "this is POV." This is fair criticism and a fair reason to nominate. It won't be deleted anyhow—inconclusive at most—and generating needed talk is not a bad thing. Marskell 18:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Needed talk ? You mean "steal a brain", "this is bullshit" or your complaints that it might hurt German feelings  ? I think the article could avoid this juvenile silliness you consider "needed talk" And the nom says clearly "This is bullshit".My what a grand reason. --Molobo 18:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The nom states this: "STRONG DELETE! This article contains only POV's. It is absolutely wrong. No need to keep it in an encyclopedia." Again, cursory but acceptable. By needed talk I obviously meant uninvolved editors joining discussion about a page that has had complaints regularly registered against it for months (do you deny that?).

As for "hurting German feelings:" Pic 1: "Germans execute...", Pic 2: "...slave labour in Germany", Pic 3: "German soldiers executing..." Why not start with a pic of Hitler and add: "notorious German Anti-Polonialist"? Marskell 18:54, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

This people weren't Germans ? --Molobo 19:11, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Marskell! First of all it was Molobo who started the personal attacs. Secondly this article IS bullshit. I am a Pole living in Germany, whose parents were not forbidden to teach me polish, which brings me to the third reason, why these Lies shall be removed. The Article is full of POV's. Fourth of all: When you look at the editing history, you'll realize that brainsick-Molobo deleted the vote-for-deletion mark. To me this means that HE's afraid about that everybody may notice that HE is the one who's lying all the time on purpose. Micha.

To be clear, I don't feel the VfD is necessary but I absolutely object to an involved editor removing the tag. I never suspected it would last longer than a day—I'm saying you shouldn't take it upon yourself to over-turn procedure. Of course it will be kept—I can't imagine an uninformed editor not voting keep. I'll keep it myself if you like and it won't be bad faith because I'll be opposing my own vote. But of course it needs massive re-vamping, which 9 out of 10 people voting keep will not be aware of. "Needing talk" is, as I said, a hope for even one or two editors to become dis-interestedly involved.

Were they not Germans? OF COURSE they were Germans. And Genghis Khan was a Central Asian like Lee Harvey Oswald was a white man. If we had "a white man shoots a white man" on Lee Harvey Oswald, it would of course be perfectly true and utterly stupid as a description. Similarly, if you want a collage of Germans shooting Poles make a user page for it (or at least a main page: Germans shooting Poles) and on this page attempt to prove what remains unproven: that this is nothing more than a regional, bi-lateral issue. Let's rephrase: Is this a WW II page? It looks like one. Why don't you have pics proving a contemporary fact rather than a historical phenomenon? Because you can't find them? Because this page, at the very least, should be re-named? Hmm. Marskell 23:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Contemporary facts like accusing Poles of being thieves ? Denying the right to speak in Polish, xenophobic attacks against Poles in France that led to discrimination of Polish firms ? Blaming Poland for WW2 ? Claiming Poles worked with German Reich ? Publishing books in Russia with lines like "everybody who reads this would shoot Poles out of contempt" ? As to :"Were they not Germans? OF COURSE they were Germans. And Genghis Khan was a Central Asian like Lee Harvey Oswald was a white man. If we had "a white man shoots a white man" on Lee Harvey Oswald, it would of course be perfectly true and utterly stupid as a description." This silly politicall correctness.What I should call then German soldies murdering Poles in executions "A group of people murdering a group of another people" Instead of "German invasion of Poland" I should name it "one state invades another state" ?.This would be absurd.As to your claim about Genghis Khan they are many articles that speak abour mass murder made by Mongol armies so I see no problem In saying the same about German armies if such things happened. --Molobo 10:04, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Four pics are redundant and yes it looks like a WW II scrapbook. Also you're inverting my point in your reply: I'm not advocating less specific descriptions but more specific descriptions. "Nazi soldiers" creates better specificity than "Germans" presented generically and really do we need two barely legible pics off the top showing exactly the same thing? How do I know they were members of NSDAP ? IIRC officers were forbidden from NSDAP membership. --Molobo 20:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The Germany section in general is a laundry list of dubious points and editorial asides without a single English source to allow the majority of the readers on this page to verify the info.

"In addition they [SIC] have been cases were Polish workers have been ordered by their employers to talk in German during their private time outside of work." No source, and I don't see how it can be proven anyhow.

"German constitution grants German citizenship to Polish-born persons if their ancestors were Germans citizens living on German territory as of 1937." Anyone desiring German citizenship faces ancestry requirements. I can't become a German.

"In addition radical German organisations expressing anti-Polish views(blaming Poles for WWII), are visited on regular basis by leading CDU and CSU politicians." Which organizations? Which politicians?

Further, it is never asserted that such policies (if in fact they are policies) differ substantially from the treatment given Turks, Arabs etc. Are the Poles singled out or this a general tendency toward homogenization (which, ultimately, the larger German society is free to pursue)? Marskell 11:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Marskell! I tried several times to tell Molobo, that e.g. Angela Merkel visited Erika Steinbach, the leader of the minority organization "Preußische Treuhand" (the organization of the people, who came from east Prussia or Silesia) just because she is a leader of a minority organization. Merkel ALSO visits the leaders of the turkisk, danish, sinthi- and roma or jewish minority, but that does not mean, that these minorities including the Preußische Treuhand play an importand role in Germany. Unfortunately I was -like all the other guys who did the same- not very successful. Believe me, there is no chance to fill fundamentalists like Molobo with intelligence. Micha.

removed parts

The following quotes removed as irrelevant.

• "Heute gestohlen, morgen in Polen" ("Stolen today, tommorow in Poland") — modern German saying"
  • The say describes a real experience of voluminous car theft, a sad fact, but have nothing to do with polonophobia. It is unlucky that Poland lay on the route of stolen cars from Deutschland to Soviet Union. mikka (t) 18:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
• A hen is not a bird, Poland is not abroad." — 18th-century Russian saying, justifying the Partitions of Poland.
  • The saying has no "hidden agenda" against Poland, just as it does not have a hidden agenda against chicken.

mikka (t) 18:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The first one is a stereotype of Poles being thieves (I am sorry to hear you are under the influence of the stereotype) The second denies Poland sovereignty, and tries to portay it as part of Russia.--Molobo 18:34, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

• The stereotype has its grounds. And I am not under influence. I was robbed by Poles eight (!) times during one year when I was a lecturer in Politechnika Bialostocka. The reason is simple: it is on the bus route from railway/bus station to the huge flea market frequented by Belarussian peddlers, so naturally this bus line was frequented by thieves an thugs. The same with car theft. Poland was on a convenient car smuggler route, and the say does not portray all Poles as thieves. It reflects statistics. Or you are going to claim that equal number of stolen cars landed in France? 19:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
• Sovereighty: So what? It (i.e., absence of sov..ty) was a historical fact. Nations conquered each other all the time. Russia conquered Komi, Mordvins, Tuva, etc. We don't look for anti-Mordvinism in this fact. mikka (t) 19:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

"The stereotype has its grounds. " I am sure Germans and Russians don't rob people or commit crimes like those Poles...

• I am sure that Germans don't steal cars in Poland. I am sure that Russian mafia operates in Poland.mikka (t) 00:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

"Or you are going to claim that equal number of stolen cars landed in France? " Actually they were stolen by Russian gangs and landed in Russia from what I know. Yet there is no German saying that "Your car is in Russia." --Molobo 19:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

• You are mistaken here. (1) Russian gangs have perfect logistics support from Polish. (2) The destination was only well known in Germany. Have you ever been at a used car market in Szczecin? In my times 90% of sellers were Deutsch, 80% of buyers were Russki. There was an interesting small business of fake Polish license plates flourishing because 99% of all cars with German transit license plates were mugged on Polish highways between on their way from Germany to Belarus->Russia. mikka (t) 00:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

"Sovereighty: So what? It (i.e., absence of sov..ty) was a historical fact." Claiming Poland doesn't have right to being independent and isn't foreign is antipolish sentiment.

• The say says nothing about the "right". You are reading between lines. mikka (t) 00:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

For Russification and persecution of Poles in Russian occupied Poland as well as negative views of Poles in Russian society(including Pogroms of Poles) and ideology see relevant links and sources in the article.--Molobo 19:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

• • This has nothing to do with the quoted say. Russian peasants (a source of all Russian folklore) did not persecute Poles in Poland. Please give an example of the usage of the say that is anti-Polish. mikka (t) 00:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

"Russian peasants (a source of all Russian folklore) did not persecute Poles in Poland" That would be very difficult because they were scarcely any Russian peasents on the territory of Poland, the main Russian population were soldiers and tsars administration. However in Russia persecution of Poles and negative stereotypes of them existed contrary to your belief, from link in the main article(I urge you to read it and links before commenting): http://www.acls.org/crn/network/ebook_gatagova_paper2.doc "In Russian national consciousness, the image of the Pole as one from a foreign religion was formed long ago. The Pole's everyday behavior and his clothes were perceived as signs of his Catholic affiliation. Moreover, the Catholic was associated with dark powers. Because in the folk sphere the reflection of historical reality is very often transferred into the unconscious level, the complex, centuries-long history of Russian –Polish coexistence have "accumulated" a great mass of myths and legends. These unceasingly feed the dangerously antagonistic relations between the two peoples. Here are some small examples of folk creativity expressing negative stereotypes from one side: "The Polock is a cursed soul" "cursed unbelievers" "dishonest Polocks."" " Anti-polish sentiment gripped the peasant masses to a lesser extent, than it did the educated classes. However, in the common people also, Polonophobia was very noticeable. In any case, when a wave of fires swept over the western provinces of the empire in 1865 (soon after the rebellion), many anonymous letters and various kinds of rumors arose about the crafty schemes of the Poles. From all areas, mass accusations of arson poured out against the Poles. Their motivations seemed unconvincing. Nevertheless. all the "accusers" agreed that it was essential to severely/cruelly cut off the "criminal intentions" of yesterday's insurgent rebels. Here is one of many examples: in 1865, in Novoarkhangelsk settlement in Kherson province, a few insignificant fires too place. Local authorities with the total support of the population placed the blame for what had happened on two Poles: the officer Leshchinsky (who was on indefinite leave) and his fifteen-year-old son. In September of 1866 a major fire burned about 600 houses in the city of Serdobsk in Saratov province; there also, exiled Poles were found to be "guilty." They were saved from violent reprisals only by speedy transit by urgent convoy to another place. A later inquiry revealed the Poles had absolutely no involvement in the setting of the fires. In Saratov itself, something resembling the "Doctor's Plot" was initiated. The following very serious accusation was directed at three doctors of Polish decent who had worked in the Alexander Hospital: "The treatment of lower ranking officials has turned out to be completely careless and even intentionally incorrect, following the dangerous way of thinking of the Polish doctors Krasovsky, Rudkovsky, and Malakhovsky, the antagonistic feelings of whom towards the Russians have aroused the censure of military authorities and local society." The fears of Polish spies, arsonists and poisoners that was being whipped up by rumor aroused the residents of Moscow to form a home [national] guard (!). Multiple manifestations of Polonophobia were noted even in private life. For example, in Petersburg, the wife of the collegiate assessor Iurevich demanded that her husband be separated from her four minor children, asserting that her spouse "as a Pole tries to develop in them enemy feelings towards Russians."

The say that Poland isn't foreign is justification of Russia's conquest of Poland, Russification and denial of existance of Polish nationality and culture. --Molobo 10:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• Russian policy makers have justified Molotov-Ribbentrop pact[8] as well as claimed that Partitions of Poland were just and restored Russian territory[9]
  • Either by mistake or deliberate misinformation, the quoted links say nothing about things stated. mikka (t) 18:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speeches/2005/02/22/2038_type82916_84445.shtml This article does not contain words "Poland" or "polish", hence irrelevant to anti-polonism. It does say about Molotv-ribbentrop Pact, so what? mikka (t) - As for the people who want to or attempt to rewrite history, to disparage the importance of this event and the important of the Soviet Union and the Red Army, the Soviet Army, in the victory over Nazism, we understand the events that this is connected with. For example, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is often mentioned, which resulted in a pact between Soviet Russia, the Soviet Union and Hitler’s Germany, and the subsequent annexation of the Baltic States.

What can one say about this? Everything needs to be seen in the context of historic events. And I would ask you to return to the events of September 1938, when agreements were made between Nazi Germany and western European countries, which later went down in history as the “Munich pact”.

I would also remind you that these agreements were signed by the western allies: Daladier, I believe, from France and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, and on the other side by Mussolini and Hitler himself.

The Soviet-German document was signed on a much lower level – on the level of foreign ministers – one year later, in response to the treaty signed by the western countries, which is now called the “Munich pact”. I would also remind you – and for you as Slovaks, this is probably especially important: as a result of the Munich pact, Czechoslovakia was handed over to Nazi Germany, and the western partners, as it were, showed Hitler where he should go to fulfil his growing ambitions – to the East. To protect its interests and security on its western borders, the Soviet Union signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with Germany.

If we look at the problem in this context, it looks quite different. And I would recommend new historians, or rather those who want to rewrite history, to learn to read books before they rewrite or write them. Please stick to the topic of the article: existing or alleged anti-Polonism. Some people are kind of busy here to read long easays. mikka (t) 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC) If one justifies a pact of aggression against Poland and Polish people(that led to murder of 6milion Polish citizens) as selfdefence its certainly antipolish-and was reported as such by Polish media. --Molobo 10:39, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Second link:

http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/metroon/1,0,2762689.html " Argunowa wyjaśnia, że Rosja podczas rozbiorów nie zajęła żadnych etnicznie polskich terytoriów, lecz przywróciła w swe władanie ruskie ziemie wchodzące w skład wczesnośredniowiecznej Rusi" Argunowa explains that Russia during the Partitions Russia didn't take ethnic polish territories but reclaimed into its rule Russian territories that were part of early medieval Rus.--Molobo 19:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Where is anti-Polonism here? I don't see any hatred expressed. mikka (t) 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

As you know Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was aimed against Poland, and led to massacres of Polish population. Furthermore it was series of treaties also directed against Poles : "http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm

The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:

Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.

Moscow, September 28,1939.

For the Government of the German Retch:

J. RIBBENTROP

By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

W. MOLOTOV "

The claim that Poland was just part of Russia is obvious antipolish statement and I don't think there is anything confusing about it. --Molobo 10:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Polonism in Germany (Present)

Temporary I excluded this parts into this talk-page, because:

1. This is an encyclopedia. And not a listing of individuals and every irrelevant individual cases happened in Germany against Polish. Primarily an encyclopedia should only describe a subject.

Please don't play word games. Only highly visible cases are listed here, rather than "every irrelevant individual". No one is going to list here every brawl with Poles in every Beerstube. mikka (t) 00:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

But for me it´s still look like a view directly from a "Beer"stube. Jonny84 12:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

2. There do not exit any official reprisals by the German State against Polish or polish citizen in (todays) Germany.

The topic is not limited to official issues. Also, your statement is false, unless you prove that the section about german courts is false. mikka (t) 00:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Funny that were is a link in this segment (which maybe should be a source): [10]. And this link tells me a total different story. Funny, or? And if it would be true however, it would not change the fact that it´s only a individual case. Jonny84 12:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Funny ? Yes since if you would read the previous talk you would know we were talking about several cases.The article you source has certain bias I am afraid and takes sides. Molobo

---

==== Anti-Polonism in Germany ====

Antipolish sentiments persist in Germany.

===== Rudi Pawelka =====

Poland is accused by some groups of having caused World War II. Rudi Pawelka the president of the Preußische Treuhand and the Territorial Association of Silesia in his speech made in Nuremberg blamed the outburst of the war on, in his opinion, acts of aggression committed by Poles during the period 1918-1938.

===== German courts and Polish language and culture =====

German courts have not only forbidden divorced Polish-speaking parents to teach their children Polish, but also voiced objections to raising them in Polish culture, claiming that to do so would be harmful to their development.[11], [12]. In addition they have been cases were Polish workers have been ordered by their employers to talk in German during their private time outside of work.

===== German media's portrayal of Poland =====

Another example of anti-Polish bias in the German media is the "Harald Schmidt Show." The highlights of this extremely popular program are insulting "jokes" about Poles, Polish culture and Poland. Harald Schmidt, who exploits antipolish views and stereotypes that a few decades earlier accompanied German crimes of genocide against the Polish people, such as supposed inferior intellect or natural criminality of Poles, has received the Bambi viewers' choice award, the Grimme Award, the Golden Camera, and the Golden Lion as best show host.

===== Florian Illies =====

Florian Illies, a former journalist with the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and best-selling author, also cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias, with jokes on the Polish language and cleaners. Incidentally, Illies actively supported a motion to reanimate name the name of "Preußen" (Prussia) for a new German federal state to be formed by a merger of the capital Berlin with Brandenburg; hostility towards Poland had been one of the political cornerstones of historical Prussia [13].

===== German constitution and politics =====

German constitution grants German citizenship to Polish-born persons if their ancestors were Germans citizens living on German territory as of 1937. In addition radical German organisations expressing anti-Polish views(blaming Poles for WWII), are visited on regular basis by leading CDU and CSU politicians [14]

---

I think we should discuss about the relevance of this segment and if we should put it in a changed up form back to the article. It make a view and image about Germany that still isn´t true. Jonny84 23:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

You are right we should discuss it. But we should discuss them one by one. And you cannot delete them without reaching an agreement. mikka (t) 00:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Mikka, I didn´t delete it. It´s still there, here in this talk-page. I only excluded it temporary. I want see here some examples for a changed form of this segment. And then we could put it (changed) back. Jonny84 12:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The discussion has already started some time in the past. It is here and has not finished wth conclusion. The issue which was discussed most (Rudi Pawelka) is summarised on this page in the section Talk:Anti-Polonism#Rudi Pawelka - summary. If you have some specific questions concerning the structure of the discussion (which is very complicated and interwoven) I can try to answer them. I can also try to translate some of the Polish sources in case of doubt. Alx-pl D 03:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Moved from above, I think the following should be deleted until sourced:

• "In addition they [SIC] have been cases were Polish workers have been ordered by their employers to talk in German during their private time outside of work." No source, and I don't see how it can be proven anyhow. Was already sourced, given name of person who quit the job after persecution, name of the clinic as well as newspaper showing the case was given.Read previous talk.--Molobo 19:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
• "German constitution grants German citizenship to Polish-born persons if their ancestors were Germans citizens living on German territory as of 1937." Anyone desiring German citizenship faces ancestry requirements. I can't become a German. This violates the treaty signed with Poland by not reckognising Polish German border after the war.--Molobo 19:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
• "In addition radical German organisations expressing anti-Polish views(blaming Poles for WWII), are visited on regular basis by leading CDU and CSU politicians." Which organizations? Which politicians? See previous talk.--Molobo 19:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Further, it is never asserted that such policies (if in fact they are policies) differ substantially from the treatment given Turks, Arabs etc. Are the Poles singled out or this a general tendency toward homogenization (which, ultimately, the larger German society is free to pursue)? Poles have a long tradition in Germany of persecution and antipolish feelings are expressed on regular basis in Germany.In the past they have led to murder by Germans of 6milion Polish citizens.See previous talk.--Molobo 19:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I really think the last point is important. It isn't Anti-Polonism if it occurs across the board with minorities, any more than Japanese attitudes are anti-Koreanism (xenophobic yes, but toward virtually every foreign group). I know, for instance, third-generation Turks cannot become Germans. So please prove the above points and attempt to show their notability vis-a-vis other groups. Marskell 09:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC) Please read the article(I suggest digging for nonvandalised version in history) and sources to learn about traditional hostility towards Polish people in Germany.Persecution of Poles has long cultural tradition that wasn't limited to German Reich in XX century. Molobo

What remains of Anti-Polonism in Germany section

Everything what is now in the anti-Polonism in Germany today - section is false.

Rudi Pawelka paragraph:

• "Poland is accused by some groups of having caused World War II." Has never been verified and is as ridiculous as accusing Poland for it would be. The sentence's origin lies in the (false) assumption that Rudi Pawelka did so, and because he is in the Preußische Treuhand and the Territorial Association of Silesia, Molobo alleged that these organizations, too, accuse Poland of having caused World War II. This is as absurd as any sensationalist could put it.

I have been unable to find a reference for this claim. Can someone please provide a link ? My apologies if I missed a link in previous talk. Groeck 20:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe it was this relatively short piece of discussion that lead me to the conclusion that Molobo means those two organisations: Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#CDU.2FCSU.

• "Rudi Pawelka the president of the Preußische Treuhand and the Territorial Association of Silesia in his speech made in Nuremberg blamed the outburst of the war on, in his opinion, acts of aggression committed by Poles during the period 1918-1938." Rudi Pawelka's speech NEVER did so. It's only Molobo who interpreted it like this. Original research and blown out of all context. See Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Discussion_on_the_Pawelka.27s_speech.

Proven and sourced.Read previous talk.--Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I seem to be unable to find the sources you refer to. Please provide link for inclusion of reference in main article. My apologies if I missed a link in previous talk. Groeck 20:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Subject to discussion was this speech (in German), held by Rudi Pawelka. The relevant part of the speech discussed a few comments above the Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Discussion_on_the_WDR_source section. The discussion continues also elsewhere, for example on Alx-pl's talk page (here and one paragraph below). A good summary of the disputed part of Rudi's speech has recently been put by Alx into the article: "Rudi Pawelka the president of the Preußische Treuhand and the Territorial Association of Silesia in his speech made in Nuremberg said that the strained situation before the war was partly due to the acts of aggression committed by Poles during the period 1918-1938." What remains questionable is whether this mention is not a bit blown out of all context.NightBeAsT 14:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

"German courts and Polish language and culture

• "German courts have not only forbidden divorced Polish-speaking parents to teach their children Polish"

Actually not. See Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Teaching_of_Polish

What are you denying ? It was proven and sourced/ Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

So are you calling this (little) discussion proof of your claim? I bet you everyone reading it would call it quite the opposite.NightBeAsT 14:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

• " but also voiced objections to raising them in Polish culture, claiming that to do so would be harmful to their development" Not even Molobo could make an attempt to defend that made-up crap. See Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#German_courts_and_Polish_culture

Proven and sourced.Read previous talk.--Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Tell another one! Where is that discussion? Where is that undeniable source and proof?NightBeAsT 14:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

• "In addition they have been cases were Polish workers have been ordered by their employers to talk in German during their private time outside of work." Still unsourced, unexplained and illogical. How could an employer do so?

Sourced explained and proven.Read previous talk. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Again, I seem to be unable to find the sources you refer to. Please provide link for inclusion of reference in main article. My apologies if I missed a link in previous talk. Groeck 20:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The only thing I can find is that Molobo claimed it in Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_5#Protection. But where is your proof?

Harald Schmidt Show

• "Another example of anti-Polish bias in the German media is the "Harald Schmidt Show." 'Another' example? Any others?
• "The highlights of this extremely popular program are insulting "jokes" about Poles, Polish culture and Poland. Harald Schmidt, who exploits antipolish views and stereotypes that a few decades earlier accompanied German crimes of genocide against the Polish people, such as supposed inferior intellect or natural criminality of Poles," Complete nonsense. See Harald Schmidt (for info on him) and Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Harald_Schmidt, Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Origin_of_what_is_translated_as_.22Today_stolen.2C_tomorrow_in_Poland.22 and Talk:Anti-Polonism#Harald_Schmidt_Show (for discussions on the talk page)
• "has received the Bambi viewers' choice award, the Grimme Award, the Golden Camera, and the Golden Lion as best show host." And of course for being Anti-Polononistic! Great journalism, Molobo - even journalist Joseph Goebbels could hardly have put it more propagandistic.

Florian Illies

• "Florian Illies,[...], also cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias, with jokes on the Polish language and cleaners" Oh yes? Where and when did he say what? And what makes it anti-Polonistic.
  • I second both questions. Groeck 21:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
• "Incidentally, Illies actively supported a motion to reanimate name the name of "Preußen" (Prussia) for a new German federal state to be formed by a merger of the capital Berlin with Brandenburg; hostility towards Poland had been one of the political cornerstones of historical Prussia[15] Funny even the stated source puts it differently. See Talk:Anti-Polonism/Archive_4#Florian_Illies
  • Note that I removed this sentence. The conclusions drawn (from support for a proposed name of a combined State in Germany to the attitude of the state which used to bear that name towards Poland to alleged anti-Polish bias) just don't make any sense. You are right, the source only mentions that Illies thought the proposed naming was "a bold idea". Groeck 21:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

So this is the anti-Polonism of today's Germany in the article: chimeras dressed as facts. None of the allegations is true. Molobo, I know your passion for Nazism and other things connected to WWII but face it: we live in the 21th century, times have changed. Don't invent facts only to try to connect a WWII article to today. Does anyone apart from Molobo think any "fact" should be included?NightBeAsT 12:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC) Well we don't know much since the article is vandalised right away after providing sources and facts. Molobo.

Hopefully not! The "facts" mentioned in this article are simply wrong. At that point I agree with you, NightBeast. During this discussion I tried to point out, even if Molobo does not want to face the truth, that there are several Poles, me included, who completely disagree with this article. Molobo only gives sources, whose seriosity or/and neutrality are disputed. And he is not the only one. When you look at this discussion you'll realize that the links to the sources often start with www.google.de/... . If I brought sources like that in a text written for University, my Professors would kill me for that. So, if you want to give sources, give us real and neutral ones. I'm pretty sure you can't find any, Molobo. Best Greetings, Micha.

Thanks for compiling this NightBeAsT, I thought of doing it myself. -guety is talking english bad 01:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Hallo NB/Micha :) If you would read the history of the article you want to delete you will find that It wasn't me who added info on Florian's antipolonism :) As to your rest self repeating allegations, they have been resolved before on talk.--Molobo 19:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Hallo Mo/Micha :) I couldn't care less about who added the claims listed above first and do not hold you responsible for bringing them in first. But what I do hold you responsible for is with reverts re-adding them despite pages of discussion. How much support did those claims have? Huh? You alone. Okay, it's obvious Space Cadet and Witkacy would support you there if you simply tell them to do so. The only paragraph which had support was 'German Polish Friendship', written by Alx-pl. Apart from me, Bayerischermann supported it. Ironically it was the only paragraph deleted by you, because you "question if such thing exists at all." Only Anti-Polonism does exist, right? Of course we have to acknowledge that Molobo's point of view is more important than those of others, do we not? And once no one sees a need to have the last word but just doesn't reply, they have lost the discussion, which is then "resolved", isn't it? Anyway. What I listed above are not "self-repeating allegations" that "have been resolved before on talk", but what remains of the 'Anti-Polonism in Germany today'-section with reasons for their deletion on the basis of previous discussions, and links to the relevant parts of the talk page.NightBeAsT 18:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that these issues are still open. Alx-pl D 19:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear NightBeast! You think that I deleted the 'German-Polish-Friendship-Section'. Well, that is not true. Unfortunately my IP is a shared IP, 15.000 Students use it every day. It is possible, that someone else deleted the section... I have no influence on what people use our server and what they do with this page. Micha.

I know you didn't. "Hallo [Username]/Micha :)" just a weird form of address I copied from Molobo. Thank you, by the way, for your RfD. Of course it could not manage to delete the page but, what is especially important, it shed light on the page for several users. Hopefully they won't leave.NightBeAsT 14:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Please don't lie NB. I said clearly that I support the article on attempts to erase traditional antipolonism in German culture and adding link to the main article.As to the title-in terms of culture such thing as friendship between two nations is a bit unscientific in my view, of course they exist nations that have culturaly friendly views to each other, this is not the case of course with Germans and Poles so title would be false. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

In what way does that make me a liar? In what way is that connected to what I've said at all??? You're trying to drift off the topic with allegations and unconnected bitching and as you do, make the talk page nearly unreadable only to tell newcomers here to read the discussion - as if you were right on any claim!NightBeAsT 14:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Your usage of vulagarism leads me to conclude that you are a simple vandal. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

What vulgarisms? And why are you stating name calling as your alleged conclusions? And why are you not replying to anything I've posted again? Do you now get why someone could not care less about your "conclusions"?NightBeAsT 14:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Please, Molobo, avoid calling names and accussing other editors of bad faith. The discussion is already to heated up to increase the tension even more. Treating your fellow users like Nightbeast with respect won't hurt nobody, and may prove useful to reach an agreement as to this article's contents. Remember: No personal attacks and Assume good faith are our policies for a good reason. Cheers, Shauri Yes babe? 20:10, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

So far NB is using vulgarisms. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

In what way?NightBeAsT 14:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Add info and article

http://www.westfr.de/ns-literatur/konservative.htm --Molobo 19:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The referenced article is from a 1989 professorial dissertation. The cited chapter reviewes conservative novels written in the late 19th and the early 20th century, specifically novels which contributed to and culminated in Nazi ideology. Anti-polish sentiment is mentioned in the review of novels written by Paul Schreckenbach early in the 20th century. One should, however, keep in mind that the review concentrates much more on Scheckenbach's attacks against the catholic church. In respect to Poland, the review concludes: "In der imperialistischen Haltung, besonders gegenüber Polen, verbinden sich preußisch-konservative und völkische Interessen", which I would translate with "His imperialistic attitude, particularly towards Poland, combines Prussian-conservative and nationalist interests". Groeck 17:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Somebody vandalised several of my posts

So please watch out for akward statements such "add this lies" etc.--Molobo 20:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

POV comment

The entire article confuses several terms and meanings, and interprets everything as Anti-polish prejudice without real understanding. Overall, it is pure POV with little real content.

Bad jokes

• Bad jokes. A good example is the Harald Schmidt show. In reality, bad jokes about one's neighbor are very common in Germany. Neighbor may mean the neighboring state (or country), or even the neighboring city. That does not indicate an Anti-anything prejudice. It is just bad jokes. Also, based on Schmidt's jokes, Germans are also Anti-Catholic, Anti-Japanese, Anti-East-Germans, Anti-Women, Anti-Bavarian (Bavaria is a German state), and so on. Germans must be Anti-Everything, I guess.

  However Germans didn't use such stereotypes to exterminate East Germans, Bavarian or women in specific.Jokes that Harald Schmidt uses are repeat of stereotypes that have led to mass murder of 6 milion Polish citizens and destruction of Poland and the fact that he is awarded for them certainly speaks something about German society if only about the lack of awarness of those German atrocities towards Poland, if not about the lack of will to know about them.--Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  Hmm. First, your statements are POV. If mentioned in the article, sources would have to be provided, and different views would have to be discussed as well. Second, there have been several wars between, for example, Prussia and other German states, so one could use similar arguments there (but it does not make more sense). Third, are you aware of Polish jokes about Germans, and of Polish jokes about Jews and Holocaust victims ? How would you evaluate those in this context ? Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

• I am unaware of any racial extermination efforts on part of Poland towards Jews or Germans.Furthermore your comparision with Prussia is flawed because Prussia didn't aim at destroying Germans as cultural group.It did towards Poland.And its stereotyping of Poles led to atrocities in WW1 and WW2 against Polish population. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Can you please provide sources for your claims ? Especially the last sentence appears to be somewhat speculative. It would possibly be more accurate to say that propaganda let to both stereotyping and atrocities, though that is my own guess and I do not have any sources. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Stereotypes of Poles as barbaric people without culture that are inferior to Germans originated in Kingdom of Prussia-this was also talked about in previous talk.As to stereotype of Pole being a criminal used in mass murder see my posts below where I give examples of its usage during German atrocities against Polish people. --Molobo 22:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• In fact one can find examples like this:

  The wife and children of Rupprecht, Crown Prince of Bavaria, members of the Wittelsbach family, were held in the camp [Sachsenhausen] from October, 1944 to April, 1945. They were then moved to the Dachau concentration camp. [source]

  which supports the argument by Groeck. Alx-pl D 16:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't mean anything, these are persecuted inviduals not ethnic groups.Germany persecuted Poles as whole group not singled out inviduals.Furthermore Germany classified Poles as subhumans.--Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Wartime propaganda

• Wartime propaganda. A good example is Gott strafe England - does the existence of this phrase and its use during World War I that mean that Germany is Anti-British ? No, it doesn't. Wartime propaganda is just bad, not more and not less. Again, it does not indicate an Anti-anything prejudice.

  However English weren't classified as subhuman animals to be exterminated as Poles were by Germans.--Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  One should say "by German propaganda" and provide correct context, i.e., who used it, and when it was used. Russians, for example, were also declared "subhuman" by Nazi propaganda. From the references I could find, the term was used by Nazis for Eastern Europeans in general, not (just) for Polish people, and even for sick and handicapped people. Also see Untermensch and the more detailed Wikipedia article on German Wikipedia [16]. Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  German classification of Poles as subhuman : [17]

http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm + - The Sub-human (RuSHA, 1942) + - "The category of sub-human (Untermensch) included Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, Serbs, etc.) Gypsies and Jews. TOP + - "To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated: + - The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1 The Nazis acknowledged that among the sub-humans, (especially among their leaders) there were those few who had obvious traces of Aryan-Nordic ancestry; however, it was decided that most of these people would have to be destroyed in order to leave the inferior races without leadership. It was possible that some of these superior people could be "germanized" -- but if not, one should at least preserve the good blood in their children. By this logic, many thousands of Polish children were subjected to a racial test. Those who had what Nazis defined as "Aryan" characteristics -- such as blue eyes, blond hair, a properly proportioned head, good behavior and above average intelligence -- were kidnapped from their parents and shipped to Germany for ultimate adoption by appropriate German families. " +

Furthermore I have nothing against adding in Russophobia article that Russians were perceived by German state as subhumans. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• Seems to me the cited article reflects and confirms what I said above. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Right-wing and other fringe group propaganda

• Right-wing and other fringe group propaganda. Same thing here. Sure, it is bad, but it does not reflect the opinion or attitude of the population in general, only of a few. Plus, such groups are probably Anti-foreigner all over the world, so what is the point ?. Doesn't matter, since antisemitism for example isn't reflected by all of society but elements of it expressing such views are noted.

  So we can add info that People expressing antipolish views sucha as Rudi Pawelka still exist in Germany unopposed. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  Yeah, Molobo, let´s start a very important list for Wikipedia and of course for the whole World. Let's start the List of german people contra Poland (also called: Antipolish Germans) Jonny84 19:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems you are more concerned with preserving a good name of Germany then providing information.Likewise antisemitic groups that would be listed in antisemitism don't mean the whole society is antisemitic but that such people exist.The same with relation towards Poland-although I have yet to see polls on German general attitude to Poles. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

See [18]. Unfortunately, it is in German; maybe someone can dig up an English version. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• One could add such information, as long as the opposite view would be represented equally, which is not the case. An NPOV article about antisemitic views would also have to include the opposite view and explain the context. As for Rudi Pawelka's views being unopposed (if that is what you meant), that is obviously POV. A brief internet search indicates a substantial amount of criticism, including criticism by the German government. Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Michal Czaplicki from the Institute which made the study summed up the findings : http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?wid=4810708&katn=Polska&widn=%22Polska+krajem+biedy+i+z%B3odziei+samochod%F3w%22&kat=1342&ticaid=1468&_ticrsn=3 "Niemcy postrzegają Polskę bardziej negatywnie, przede wszystkim jako kraj złodziei i kraj, który jest inny" "Germans view Poland more negative-most of all as country of thieves, and country that is different." As you can see the stereotype of Poles being criminals that existed during German atrocities in Poland still exist in Germany. --Molobo 22:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) Some specific concerns:

Concerns around Rudi Pawelka section

• Rudi Pawelka. The article itself admits that the statements made do not reflect common opinion, so what is the point ?

  He doesn't have to reflect common opinion to be added to the article.However I don't know common opinion on such topics in Germany. Can you provide polls. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  I could, but what is the point ? The reference about Rudi Pawelka is obvious POV, which is admitted in the article. It seeems to me that it would be necessary to establish that such statements reflect common opinion, not the opposite. Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  The point is to see attitude to see if your claims are true.

  I am not sure if I have made any claims here. As far as I can see, unsupported claims are made in the article, and I have been asking for references. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

  Your claim that the public doesn't share his views.Can I see a poll on that ? --Molobo 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

  Please note that I did not claim anything; I cited the article. I can not find any polls indicating that the public would share Pawelska's opinion. All I found was a substantial amount of criticism of his statements, as I think I mentioned before. Groeck 22:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

  The Pawelka opinion should be contrasted in the article with the statement [19]

  "We Germans know full well who started the war and who were its first victims," Schröder said acknowledging the Nazi atrocities in Poland and added that because of German's blame there was no longer room left for discussing restitution claims which "turn history on its head."

  Otherwise the anti-Polonism article makes an impression that the statement by Pawelka is a commonly shared opinion. The fact that the article makes such an impression makes it POV-ish. Or maybe Molobo you have a polls of German opinion that they share Pawelka's view to considerable extent? If you have, don't hesitate to show us them and it immediatley make the issue fixed. Alx-pl D 03:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I already provided information on polls in regards to German societies attitude towards Polish people.Please read talk carefully in the future Alx: "In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago." From article sourced above-I thought you read it since you decided to delete it. Molobo

Concerns around German courts and Polish language and culture

• German courts and Polish language and culture. The information provided is wrong and/or misleading. The incident does do not reflect a court order, but a decision by the "Jugendamt" or "Jouth Welfare Office" in one city in Germany. The referenced article in German is in fact very critical of the decision.

  In which way is it wrong. And why are you talking about incident when several ones have been noted-please read previous talk. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  The article claims it to be a court order, which is wrong. I referred to this incident since it is mentioned in the article. I researched it because it interested me, and as an example. Previous talk is irrelevant as 1) only incidents mentioned in the article are relevant for the reader, and 2) concerns have obviously not been addressed. Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Previous talk is important becouse it solves a lot of the issues you are complaining.The current version of the article is heavily vandalised to the point that it shouldn't be referenced in the talk.

Yet, the specific reference (regarding court order) was added as-is by an anonymous user on July 13. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Concerns around German media's portrayal of Poland

• German media's portrayal of Poland - see above comments about Harald Schmidt. If statements made by Harald Schmidt reflect an Anti-Anything attidude of Germans, Germans must be Anti-Everything, including Anti-German. The conclusions made do not make any sense.

  It makes if you know such stereotypes led to mass murder of Poles by Germans in the past. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

  Same as above - this is your personal POV. Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it is POV that Germany mass murdered Poles often using terms like "Poles are thieves" "Poles don't have a culture" -sterotypes that Schimdt uses to make his jokes etc.

Can you provide sources for your claim that Germany mass murdered Poles often using terms like "Poles are thieves" "Poles don't have a culture" ? Also, it would be help to have a reference to the claim about Schmidt using the specific stereotypes as mentioned above to make his jokes. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/specjal_040904/specjal_a_11.html

"Uważajcie. Tu siedzą polnische banditen! - ostrzega Niemiec. - No to im pokażemy! - rzucam. Niemcy się śmieją." "Look out.Here are polnische banditen-warns the German-We will show them-I shout.Germans laugh" This from memories the German anihiliation of Warsaw.As you can see the term describing Poles as thieves is used by Germans.The same stereotype is repeated by Schmidt. --Molobo 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I understand, though a reference to Schmidt's use of the stereotype would be nice. Anyway, let's assume it is correct. That does not make your conclusions correct, in which you appear to associate Schmidt with mass murders. Unless sources are provided, we are back to bad jokes. Groeck 22:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

"we are back to bad jokes" Which are the same stereotype that in part led to and was used in mass murder of Poles by Germany.It is certainly worth noting that such stereotypes have found audience again in Germany. --Molobo 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

"though a reference to Schmidt's use of the stereotype would be nice."

From Thomas Urban-a know researcher on German-Polish relations. http://www.thomas-urban.pl/artykul2.php "Wróciły dobrze znane stereotypy na temat Polaków: „polski bałagan", „Polak-złodziej", „Polską rządzi kler, ciemnota" i „Polacy to antysemici". Niestety, sporo Niemców traktuje Polskę jako jakiś dziki kraj, gdzie rośnie tajga. Parę lat temu znany prezenter TV Harald Schmidt regularnie opowiadał do znudzenia dowcipy o Polakach, którzy kradną. W ten sposób urabia się opinię." Well known stereotypes about Poles have returned-"Polish disorder", "Poland is led by priests and dumbness" and "Poles are antisemites".Unfortunetly most Germans treat Poland as wild country wher taiga grows.A few years ago known TV presenter regularly till boredom talked about Poles that steal.In such way an opinion is made. --Molobo 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC) Usage of stereotype of Poles being criminals in concentration camp by SSmen http://republika.pl/horajec/okup2.html" przychodzi oficer esesman i każdego z nas wita harapem, lub butem w brzuch, albo pięścią w twarz . Mnie tak przywitał , że mi ząb zaraz wyleciał i mówił "polnisch bandit"." An SS officer comes and welcomes us with harap, or with kick in the stomach, or fist in the face.He welcomed me so much, my tooth fell out, and he spoke "polnisch bandit".

"Idziemy piątkami na drugie pole- w bramie nas liczą i nahajką ćwiczą. Esesmani mówią coś do siebie, pokazują na nas - "polnische banditen". Przystanęliśmy przy pierwszym bloku; prowadzą nas do trzeciego bloku." We go in five on the second field-in the gates the count us and treat with whips.SSmen speak something to themselfs, they point out us-"polnische banditen".We stoped at the first bloc, they led us to third bloc.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities9.htm During the Rising, on leaving the house where I lived, No. 30 Ogrodowa Street, I found myself in a shelter of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, No. 2 Elektoralna Street. This was on August 7, 1944. In the shelter there were several hundred people, mostly women and children. In the afternoon of this day, after the Insurgents had retreated from Elektoralna Street, a German outpost was set in front of the gateway of the Ministry. About 9 o’clock in the evening 2 gendarmes entered the shelter and ordered all the men to go out. The soldier who stood on guard assured us that we were only going to work. We were led out three by three (we were about 150 men) to Mirowski Square, among the buildings of the two Market Halls. Here we were ordered to remove the corpses, scores of which were lying on the ground, and after that, rubble from the gutters and the roadway. There were about a hundred Poles on the square when we came, all busy cleaning it up, and some hundreds of Germa n gendarmes, who behaved very brutally: beating the Poles, kicking them, and calling them Polnische Banditen. At a certain moment they stopped our work and ordered those who were not Poles to step forward. One man who had White-Russian documents did so, and was immediately released. After an hour and a half’s work, the gendarmes ordered us to form threes. I found myself in the second rank. We were all made to stand with our hands up. An old man in the front rank, who could not hold his hands up any longer, was cruelly struck in the face by a gendarme. After 10 minutes five rows of three were marched off under the escort of five gendarmes armed with tommy guns to the Market Hall in Chlodna Street. By chance I heard the names of two of the gendarmes who shouted to each other, Lipinski and Walter. When we entered the building after passing two gates I saw, almost in the centre of the Hall, a deep hole in which a fire was burning; it must have been sprinkled with petrol because of the dense black smo ke. We were put under a wall on the left side of the entrance near a lavatory. We stood separately with faces turned to the wall and hands up.

After a few minutes I heard a series of shots and I fell. Lying on the ground I heard the moans and groans of people lying close to me and also more shots. When the firing ceased I heard the gendarmes counting those who lay on the ground; they only counted up to thirteen. Then they began to look for two more who were missing. They found a father and son hiding in the adjoining lavatory. They brought them out, and I heard the voice of the boy shouting "Long live Poland", and then shots and moans."

As you can see there is much evidence that stereotype of Poles being criminals was used by Germans during their mass murder of Polish people.The same stereotype repeated by German media star that was awarded for his work.

I am sure those Poles would love German jokes about Poles being criminals...

--Molobo 22:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Concerns around Florian Illies

• Florian Illies. It seems to me that his comments about Schmidt's Polish jokes are actually meant to be positive, not negative (in the context used, making jokes about someone or something reflects some level of respect for the target of the jokes, not disrespect). But obviously that is just my POV.

I have now spent several days trying to find any reference on the web which would indicate that Florian Illies "cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias", much less how that would show an anti-Polish sentiment in German polulation if it were true. All I have been able to find is references that he thinks that it is ok to make Polish jokes. Unless someone provides a reference which would prove the claim, I am going to remove the text. Groeck 15:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Concerns around Persistent prejudice against Poles (1945 to present) section

• Persistent prejudice against Poles (1945 to present). Seems to me that the references made do not reflect Anti-Polonism, but rather poor choices of word. To read an Anti-Polish attitude or "hostility" into misrepresentations of events in the early days of World War II seems to be a quite arbitrary claim, not supported by anything but the author's opinion.

Some statistics about German jokes on the Web (from Google search results):

• Blonde women: 574,000
• Men: 388,000
• Musicians: 349,000
• Women: 286,000
• Government employees: 223,000
• German army: 195,000
• Doctors: 182,000
• Politicians: 156,000
• East Germans: 147,000
• Bavarian: 124,000
• Polish: 92,700
• Jews: 79,400
• Chancellor: 79,300
• French: 72,900
• Belgian: 72,900
• West Germans: 72,300
• Austrian: 70,100
• Swiss: 70,100
• British: 431
• Italian: 99
• Danish: 69
• American: 13
• Norwegian: 10
• Spanish: 3

I think this proves my point that German jokes are more about direct neighbors and do not reflect a specific prejudice. Groeck 20:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Two groups you listed were target of extermination policies by Germans. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

What does that have to do with jokes ? Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

That stereotypes that have led to mass murder of those people by German state are still present in German society. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Seems to me that your conclusion that "stereotypes --> mass murder" is your personal POV unless sourced. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Already sourced by examples. --Molobo 22:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes. And to extend the point a little farther: is John Cleese anti-German?: is Steve Coogan anti-French?: is Chris Rock anti-white? Sure, if you pick a given skit, but in general no. Keep your thinking cap on. An anti-Polish joke on German T.V. is not the reappearance of the SS. Is Canadian culture anti-American? Of course. But no more anti-American than American culture is anti-Canadian (according to ME)...and of course it reveals a bond as much as anything else (why, incidentally, did German-Polish friendship get removed?). Nothing on the page proves to me that this is specific and particular to Poles. I asked this above and I think it important: is the treatment of Poles in Germany different than that provided Turks and Arabs? I'd like to see somebody prove yes. Marskell 23:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

An antipolish joke in modern German TV certainly would be enjoyable by still living former Polish inmates of Auschwitz where SS guards have already told them such fine examples of humour. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

See my above comment about Polish jokes about Holocaust victims. Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. I collected some more stats, this time about articles in German language mentioning hate of foreigners. Countries are mentioned in such articles as follows:

• USA: 67,900
• Turkey: 46,200
• France: 38,300
• Austria: 35,600 (note: this number is misleading since it includes a lot of information about hate of foreigners in Austria)
• Poland: 30,800
• Arab/Muslim: 30,500
• Italy: 30,000
• Africa: 25,200
• Spain: 19,000
• Netherlands: 16,500

Obviously, there is no statistical relationship between the number of jokes and the amount of "hate".

There are several good articles on the web about hate of foreigners in Germany, including some with Polish-German specifics and theories about its roots. For example, it apears that the East German SED (the only political party in the German Democratic Republic before the reunification) started an anti-Polish campaign in the 1980's. This is information which can easily be confirmed and should have a well deserved place in the Anti-Polonism article. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Instead, there is a lot of non-information, information which would usually be removed from Wikipedia as "original research".

I would suggest to remove all unconfirmed information, i.e., all original research, and replace it with information which can be confirmed through independent references. Groeck 04:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

All information in the article was already confirmed in previous talk.Please read it.--Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

All your claims have been dealt with previously.Read talk archived.Also you didn't read the references in this talk pasted in here above.For example http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/401/212schlott.html Polonia in Germany Malgorzata Warchol-Schlottmann --Molobo 11:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Plz do not overwhelm the talk page. The link is sufficient and we can read it from there. If there is a particular quote you like pull it out and post it. Marskell 12:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Please read it then instead of repeating the same questions over and over. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

In addition, a caution must be taken when articles are copied like this here as this may be a copyright violation. In particular, I thoroughly checked that it is allowed to translate the Gazeta Wyborcza notice above. Alx-pl D 13:37, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

• Regarding the use of the term "dealt with". Obviously, that is not the case, since none it is not reflected in the article. "Ignored with Prejudice" appears to be more appropriate. As for the reference cited above, it actually proves my point. It mentions schools in Germany teaching Polish. It talks a lot about discrimination against foreign immigrants, and it states that German laws cause great harm to Polish immigrants - but it can not establish specific discrimination against Polish immigrants in particular (German law is just as disciminative against other immigrants, and even against Germans who accept other countries' citizenships). In fact, it seems to claim discrimination against Polish immigrants because German law does not specifically create an exception for Polish immigrants over other immigrants from other countries.

On a more general note about POV vs. NPOV. In order to be a neutral article, it would be necessary to provide opposite views for each claim made in the article. Statements made can not be considered "true" just because someone says it. Terminology such as "has been claimed ..." would be more appropriate than listing POV as facts. Ultimately, I think that those trying to establish the existence of specifically Anti-Polish sentiment in today's German society are doing themselves a disservice by excluding the complete picture. The article itself, as written today, is immediately identified as heavily POV and thus as unreliable. If anything, just the opposite is accomplished. As written, it is much more useful in establishing an Anti-German view of its authors than anything else, and the article might serve as a good example to be cited in an "Anti-Germanism" article elsewhere.

Groeck 16:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Just because Germany murdered Jews doesn't mean Poles weren't murdered as well.Just because Germany discriminates others doesn't mean it doesn't discriminate Poles.They are several other points which didn't care to mention in which Poles are singled out-and they are in the article. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Now, I expect a heavy war on removing the NPOV tag. In fact such a war took place in mid August. Alx-pl D 22:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The article can easily be identified as POV even by a casual reader. Removing the tag would not change this. This is reflected in the entire tone of the article, not just in individual phrases or chapters. Look at Anti-Americanism as an example for a much more balanced article and compare the two. Groeck 12:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

A casual German - maybe, a casual Polish - I doubt, a casual Dane or Dutch - I don't know. I've done a survey of the Anti-xxx articles before I wrote edit and I agree with you that the American article may serve as an example of how a good compromise with regard of the article may look like with an additional twist that anti-Polonism article should be shorter (to retain systemic balance). Alx-pl D 13:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

If I may toot my own horn slightly, I and another user are largely responsible for the current shape of Anti-Americanism; it was a mess when I started here. Some pointers:

• Employ a very short intro, which has an enormous affect on stability.
• Avoid "he said, she said." We quote Samuel Johnson but not the latest radio DJ making an Anti-American comment.
• Criticisms and counter-criticisms sections of equal length.
• Remove or differently incorporate country specific sections. This change enormously aided stability.
• Diverse pics.
• General NPOV (naturally)

This article more or less fails on just about all of the points. I'd suggest someone cut and paste this to a user page and try a total re-vamp there first. Any volunteers? Marskell 13:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd give it a try unless someone else volunteers. Might take a while, though. Groeck 13:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I will second Groeck. The article proved that German citizenship or "status" laws are archaic and insular. It did not prove specifically anti-Polish bigotry. Marskell 22:26, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh really ? You must have missed those sentences

'The Germans speak arrogantly of Polnische Wirtschaft, thus confirming the economic differences between the two countries but conveniently forgetting the German (and Prussian) contribution to the destruction of that Wirtschaft. In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago. On the other hand, during the time of communism in central and eastern Europe, it was difficult for Polish and other immigrants from communism to develop pride concerning their country of origin. The poverty of eastern and central European countries, their lack of democracy and constant economic crises evoked the feeling shame and jealousy as contrasted with West German prosperity. The discrimination of Poles (and of other ethnic minorities) in Germany has been exacerbated by the extremist right and its slogans of Deutschland für Deutsche and Ausländer raus!

Still another problem is the culture shock stemming from two different perceptions of what Europe really means. To Poles, it seems natural that they, together with the Germans, belong to a common European culture and share a common religion. This feeling of belonging together is not shared by the Germans. While the Poles accept German culture as part of European culture, the Germans do not see Polish culture as sharing the same cultural roots. While an educated Pole knows at least some German writers, the opposite is not true of an educated German. The growing realization of this situation, the feeling of frustration, anger and resentment not only against the Germans but also against Polish culture is a natural result, and some immigrants begin to share the prejudices of the dominant group. While the emigration of the last 20 years has somewhat softened these problems, they still do exist.

That does not prevent the occasional Germans revisionist claims. Among those was a recent attempt by the extreme right wing German party, "Nationale Offensive," to establish itself in the Opole region of Poland, in the village of Dziewkowice. The Bund der Vertriebenen, an organization representing those expelled from east of the Oder-Neisse line, occasionally expresses revisionist goal and demands that Germans from Germany be allowed to join the German minority organizations in Poland. "Helmut, you are our chancellor too:" such posters (in Polish) occasionally appeared in Silesia under the auspices of such German organizations.

In particular, the treatment accorded to Poles has obviously been not on the agenda of the German civil rights organizations or of those German scholars and thinkers who spend time agonizing over Germany's actions in the twentieth century. +

Few Germans wish to remember that the establishment of Poland's western border along the Oder-Neisse rivers is linked with the incorporation of 46 percent of Poland's prewar territory by the Soviet Union and the decision of the three Great Powers to transfer German population from Poland to Germany, and the Polish population from Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania to post-German territories. The forced human dislocation, without precedent in modern history, compelled 4.5 million Poles to leave their eastern and rural homelands and move to the industrialized region abandoned by the forcibly expelled millions of Germans. The Germans remember the tragedy of their dislocation but conveniently forget that of the Poles.

--Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Note: I replaced text with reference to relevant part of referenced article. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Please refrain from erasing relavant parts of my posts. --Molobo 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

As mentioned earlier by others, links are sufficient. That is what the web is for, and it avoids possible copyright violation problems. Groeck 22:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Persistent prejudice against Poles (1945 to present)

This comment refers to the first part of this chapter. I understand it has been discussed before. After reading through the related talk page comments, there appears to have been an agreement that the statements made are unsupported by the facts. Yet, the text is still there.

I spent some time last night trying to find references for the several "it has been cited that ..." statements in this chapter. I could not find any. References cited confirm the statements, but not an associated Anti-Polish sentiment, much less an "Anti-Polonism" associated with it (of course, I might have missed something).

In addition, the claim made about Polish cavalry fails to mention that the "supidity and incompetence" argument was used during WW II as propaganda by the Germans (and would thus belong to the pre-1945 section). References I found on the Web, contrary to the claim made, typically refer to the bravery of such attacks, and tend to correctly clarify that it was typically not real attacks, but the best way for attacking horses to pass by suddenly appearing tanks.

As such, the text should be removed, or references should be provided for every "has been cited". Groeck 13:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

What statements are unsupported by facts ? --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I asked for references. Without references, all statements are unsupported. Groeck 18:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

References were givne in previous versions and talk. The article is vandalised so it doesn't have them.What references do you have in mind. --Molobo 21:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

All of them. The references I have been able to find confirm the statements, but not the "Has been cited as examples of anti-Polonism ..." claims. Cited where ? Please provide references which associate the statements with anti-Polonism (links, please). Please note that I do not question the claims; all I am asking for is references supporting them. Groeck 16:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Polish National Library reference to anti-Polonism

Sorry for creating a separate headline for this, even though it has been mentioned a number of times above.

I downloaded the referenced document. I searched through it several times. Either it does not mention the term "anti-Polonism", or I forgot how to search in a Word document. I also tried to find a link through an internet search, but did not find it either. I understand that it has been claimed multiple times that the term would be there, and that an internet search would point to it. Did anyone besides me try to download the file ? If so, did you find the term ? If it is not there, it should not be cited in the article as reference.

Groeck 15:19, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The term "anti-Polonism" does not occur in the document. It is its Polish counterpart "antypolonizm" that does. The current formulation, being a result of a few edits and counteredits done in haste, is misleading. I'll change it. (Btw. this information was a way to counter my claim that the word "antypolonizm" does not occur in major Polish dictionaries and encyclopedias, but as no-one supports it I understand that this information is not that important to find its way to the article). Alx-pl D 15:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

In other words a Polish word is used for the English version.Lets not give impression Alx that this is a different word. --Molobo 22:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

If you think that the current formulation gives impression that "antypolonizm" is a different word then please formulate the sentences accordingly. However, it must me clearly stated what exactly occurs in the Polish dictionary as otherwise the text would be misleading. Alx-pl D 05:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

The status of the term has long been one of my concerns. If I start a requested move to Anti-polish sentiment or Persecution of Poles would people say yes (and if so to which one)? Once move we could say "Anti-Polonism is a rare academic word" or something like that. Marskell 16:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That explains a lot. Your proposed wording sounds good to me, though I don't think the library reference should be used (or it should clearly say that the (or an) equivalent Polish term is defined there).

In general, I would favor renaming the article to "Anti-Polish sentiment" or something similar, since it would be easier to describe and to provide real references (such as [20]; sorry, this one is in German). The stronger term "anti-Polonism" could then be used where appropriate, or even better be described in its own chapter.

For the record, the oldest reference I found for the term "anti-Polonism" is in a book dated 1919 (not a nice one): The Jewish Question in Poland. From the context, and from other information available on the web, it appears that the term has been used historically mostly to describe Jewish-Polish relations [21] [22] [23] as well as for (perceived or real) anti-Polish sentiment in U.S. media in the 1970s [24]. Groeck 16:36, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason for changing the title. We don't have "Anti-Jewish sentiment".The word Antipolonism is used in scholary works. --Molobo 17:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The terms have different meaning. "Sentiment" implies "dislike", while "Anti-Polonism" is more along the line of "hate". "Sentiment" is a much broader term. The latter term is much easier to describe in the context of the first. Groeck 18:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

In this context, I also looked up Polonophobia. This term is derived from Xenophobia, Fear of strangers, i.e., it means "fear of Poles", not "hostility towards Poles". It seems to have been widespread in Russia at some time in the past [25]. Seems to me this is another argument for renaming the article to something more generic, and to use separate chapters to describe the different terms. Groeck 18:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Putting Poles in gas chambers and executing children claiming they are animals isn't hate ? --Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I did not (want to) suggest to remove the term, but to rename the article and describe "Anti-Polonism" appropriately as part of it. Groeck 18:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)]

Sigh. Marskell 18:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Add

Add info on consistant stereotypes in German cultural sphere on Poles:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/football/09/02/poland.injuries.ap/?section=cnn_latest Austria also faces the prospect of Polish prosecutors investigating a complaint against midfielder Dietmar Kuehbauer. Kuehbauer, who is set to play, is alleged to have refused to be interviewed with Poland's Adam Ledwon on Austrian television last Saturday, saying he "stinks Polish." --Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Formatting

Would it be possible to use some style of formatting to help separating comments from each other ? Groeck 18:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess not. Sigh. Groeck 22:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Add quotes showing dehumanisation of Poles in German culture

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/cgjs/publications/hbpolgerpol.html German anti-Slavism, which was often directed at the Poles, had prominent spokesman in the nineteenth century. In a letter in March 1861 to his sister Malwine, Bismarck, for example, expressed the Prussian-German attitude towards the Poles which turned out to be a blueprint for the future: "So clobbeth the Poles so that they despair; they have my deepest sympathy for their situation, but, if we want to exist, we have no choice but to wipe them out ('ausrotten'); the wolf cannot help it that he was created by God the way he is, but one shoots him yet, if one can."(11)

When the German empire made frenetic attempts to germanise her Polish provinces, she was supported by organisations like the Ostmarkenverein or the Pan-German alliance. These endeavours were also well received by prominent German intellectuals. As, for example, the sociologist Max Weber, once a member of the Pan-German alliance, put it: "It was we who humanised the Poles"(12). This anti-Slavism was to be brought to a climax during the Third Reich. --Molobo 23:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

So f*** rename the page German persecution of Poles. Do you not understand this? --Marskell 23:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Calm down. Though I must admit that might not be easy. Groeck 00:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

You have shown that you are not a serious contributor by using emotions. Most cultures, civilisations have committed atrocities or have stereotypes that led to ones.Germany, despite what may one think about it judging by posts from German uses, has them also. It is simply history.The fact remains that German culture has many stereotypes about Poles showing them as thieves, denying they are humans, or that they are inferior.You can't really dispute that, since you will find hundreds of scholary works, documents or trials on it.If you can't face history I suggest you avoid topics dealing with it.--Molobo 00:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, Molobo, one might possibly conclude that you are possibly not a serious contributor yourself, since you keep repeating the same stereotypes again and again. Furthermore, one might possibly suspect some level of emotional response on your side, especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans. Per your own statement, this would also disqualify you as contributor. Fair is fair. Besides, one might possibly argue that your comments above German culture has many stereotypes about Poles have no meaning besides "so what ? every culture has stereotypes". That is not the problem. The problem might possibly be the conclusions you appear to draw from it.

Additional recommended readings might be Germanophobia and Teutophobia and related articles elsewhere on the web (I must admit that the number of hits for the terms on Google surprised me - maybe a Wikipedia article on the term is warranted ?). Groeck 03:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

A phobia is "irrational fear".The article doesn't speak about irrational fear about Germans but about cultural, political and historical aspects of German society that led to atrocities against Poles.Of course it isn't limited to Germany.I doubt you can speak about a phobia when real life atrcoities accured.You could if they didn't. --Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

"Furthermore, one might possibly suspect some level of emotional response on your side, especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans." So far we hace seen emotional and quite hysteric reaction IMHO on part of German posters towards mentioning historical facts which could led us to some conclusions as to their view of history of Germany.However Wikipedia is not original research.

"especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans" I have yet to express opinion on Germans in the article.So far I used scholary works, historical events and quotes from German politicians such as Bismarck, Hitler, or Goebbels.--Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that we have seen a lot of emotional and quite hysteric reaction. As my Math teachers would have said "I leave it up to the reader to determine who reacted emotional and quite hysterical". One might argue that you continuously express opinions about Germans. Again, I would leave it to the reader to determine if this is correct or not. As for your claims of having used scholarly works etc - you use those for individual statements. Your conclusions, as I have pointed out, are yours, and are mathematically wrong. There is no emotion in mathematics. Groeck 13:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but you have proved nothing so far.Have you proved that Germans didn't use the stereotype of Poles as criminals during WW2 as justification for atrocities ? No you didn't.Have you proved that Harald Schmidt doesn't use the same stereotype ? No you didn't. Furthermore If we have a mathematical solution to solving POW disputes in regards to history or political views then I suggest you post it on Wiki's main page right away. I suggest a Noble is also in order. Molobo.

Polish jokes on the international Web

Both from and about Poles. Doesn't seem to be limited to Germans telling jokes.

• Britain
• Another site
• Yet another site
• This one about jokes collected in Poland

Groeck 00:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

And ? There is a difference between a joke for fun's sake and a joke showing and aproving a stereotype that led to mass murder of milions.Showing Poles as thieves in German culture led in part and was part of atrocities committed by Germans on Poles as shown before.The fact that such stereotypes exist today and are aproved by German society-Herald Schmidt was popular-are certainly worth noting. --Molobo 00:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Besides I already provided you with a quote from expert of Polish-German relations(Tomasz Urban) who confirms that such "jokes" serve nothing else the portayal of Poles in negative light. --Molobo 00:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Recommended further reading:

• Jokes, specifically the chapter about ethnic jokes.
• stereotypes.
• ethnic stereotype.
• Logic.
• Mathematics.
• logical Fallacy, Fallacy.
• False analogy, Hasty generalization, and other related terms.
• Search for "Polish Jokes" and "Ethnic Stereotype" on Google.

You are consistent in your claim that "propaganda --> mass murder" and "propaganda --> stereotype" would result in "stereotype --> mass murder". Mathematically, your claim is that "A-->B, A-->C ::= B-->C, and you use that claim to show that Germans would be Anti-Polish (by further associating "mass murderer" with "anti-Polish). This is a essentially an example for a False analogy.

Another chain of claims you keep making is along the line of "1) Schmidt makes Polish jokes"; "2) Polish jokes are based on stereotypes"; "3) Polish stereotypes are anti-Polish" ::= "Schmidt is anti-Polish". 1) and 2) may be considered true without prejudice (i.e., without verifying the claim). 3) is a conclusion which equals Polish stereotypes with anti-Polish attitute, which is wrong (both can exist independently of each other, and even if both were equivalent, the conclusion would still be wrong; it is a logical Fallacy and False analogy). Therefore, your conclusion that Schmidt would be anti-Polish (based on Polish jokes he made) is wrong. The same pretty much applies to all your arguments. Hasty generalization actually provides a nice example for your line of argument.

Nobody will deny that stereotypes exist. Suggested readings above should be quite sufficient to confirm this. The claim "approved by German society" would, however, require references and is otherwise POV.

In respect to your interpretation of Thomas Urban's quotes, your claim that he confirmed that such "jokes" serve nothing else (but) the portayal of Poles in negative light, which does not appear to be supported by the references you provided. Therefore, it appears to be be your interpretation of statements he made, and thus might also be considered POV. unless you can provide references showing that he in fact draws this conclusion. Groeck 03:26, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Your attempts of apologism towards German stereotypes of Poles as criminals is not going to change the fact that such stereotype was used in German atrocities against Poles and is still found in German society.Furthermore experts on Polish-German relations admit that Schimdts jokes serve to portayal a negative view of Poles. --Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC) "In respect to your interpretation of Thomas Urban's quotes" I didn't provide an interpretation.I provided a translation. --Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC) " The claim "approved by German society" would, however, require references" Schimdt won several awards.It doesn't seem he was isolated or that he angered German public by using stereotypes of Poles as criminals that accompanied German mass murder of Poles in XX century. --Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC) Furthermore you can find acceptence by another German public figure of his usage of the stereotype: http://www.kaindlstorfer.at/interviews/illies.html "Was heißt das? Illies: Harald Schmidt hat uns gelehrt, daß man Menschen einfach nicht ernst nehmen kann, die ständig vom Umweltschutz reden und hellblaue Buttons mit Friedenstauben tragen, weil diese Menschen den Umweltschutz und das Buttontragen selbst viel zu ernst nehmen. Außerdem sind wir die erste Generation, die wieder über Polenwitze lachen kann, ohne gleich an den Polenfeldzug von 1939 denken zu müssen. Auch in dieser Beziehung hat uns Harald Schmidt befreit." It seems that Harald Schimdt serves as way of letting Germans forget the atrocities on Polish people(We must remember that both Polenfeldzug was a Nazi propaganda term, and that Wehrmacht mass murdered polish civilians during this war).However pointing out such conclusion would be Original Research I think.So the best way would be making a sentence about the Polnische Banditen stereotype used to justify murder of Poles by Germans in WW2 with examples and then citing Illies praising Schmidt that such stereotype can be used again in Germany. --Molobo 11:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

"You have shown that you are not a serious contributor by using emotions." Look back at your own talk contributions. Screaming "mass murder" in every response is emotional pleading at its finest. And you did not rebut the suggestion that this should be renamed German persecution of Poles—in fact you are repeatedly confirming it. And Groeck is right about your argumentation generally; under Hasty generalization we should have a disambig pointing here.

And a small thing: when -phobe or -phobia is used as a suffix on an ethnic or national label it means dislike or bigotry and/or fear. Their is a few centuries' pedigree for this in English. Marskell 11:54, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

The arguments this time are 1) "Schmidt making polish jokes" --> "Polish jokes based on stereotype" --> "Illies praising Schmidt for enabling the Germans to make Polish jokes without having to think about the war against Poland in 1939" (free translation, beat me for it) --> "Illies praising Schmidt that such stereotype can be used again" False analogy and 2) "Stereotypes used to justify murder" --> "Illies praising Schmidt that such stereotypes can be used again in Germany" --> "Germans are anti-Polish" Hasty generalization. QeD. What else can I say ? Groeck 14:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Missed another one: "Schmidt making Polish jokes" --> "Jokes are based on stereotypes" --> "Schmidt won several awards" --> "German public approves stereotypes" False analogy and Hasty generalization. Groeck 14:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but you are wrong-the stereotype about Poles being criminals was used to justify mass murder of Polish people.Schmidt uses the same stereotype and as we can see-receives gratitude for allowing Germans to again portay Poles as criminals. Molobo