User talk:Carcharoth

This is a Wikipedia user talk page. For the fictional wolf of the same name, see Carcharoth.

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Recorded debates and discussions

Candidates and the community,

Wikivoices (formally NotTheWikipediaWeekly) would be interested in making several podcasts with candidates running in the 2008 English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee election. Given the high number of candidates likely to be signing up during the nomination stage (likely to be around 45) it will be a very busy 2 weeks. These shows typically last about one and a half hours to record, taking into account setup time, and are recorded using the free, downloadable programme, Skype. The programme can be used on Windows, Mac OS and Linux operating systems and is also available on some mobile platforms. If any candidates have problems with installing or running the program please contact either myself at my talk page or by email

There will be 2 formats being run over the next 2 weeks. The first will be general discussion with a small number candidates at a time with several experienced hosts from Wikivoices. Each candidate will be given 2-3 minutes to introduce themselves then the main body of the cast will begin. The topics discussed will vary in each recording to ensure fairness however the atmosphere will be generally free flowing. These will be running throughout the two weeks starting tomorrow. Specific signup times can be found here at our meta page.

The second format will be based on a similar style to election debates. Questions will be suggested here by the community. A selection of these will then be put to a panel of larger panel candidates with short and concise 1-2 minute responses. Other than an introduction and hello from each candidate, there will be no opportunity for a lengthier introductions. Specific signup times can be found here at our meta page.

It is recommended that candidates attend both formats of casts and we will try to be as flexible as possible. We are looking for the greatest participation but also for shows with enough members to keep it interesting but not too many that it causes bandwidth and general running issues. I look forward to working with all candidates in the coming weeks.

01:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiVoices

Seddσn ^{talk Editor Review}

Replied on Seddon's talk page here, thanking him for the offer, but declining the invitation. Carcharoth (talk) 00:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser

Yes, I limited myself to the facts, and although I alluded to my suspicions, I felt that they were too thinly-supported to be put on record. Tim Vickers (talk) 04:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I still think it would have made more sense for you to be more open about what your suspicions were. Asking for a checkuser between a suspect account and a banned account shouldn't be that controversial. Carcharoth (talk)

Grburster

1. Okay, I think we should discuss this fully. I have to admit that I've noticed you take what appears to be a more and more dim view of me and my contributions/activities/techniques over the last few months especially. Am I imagining this, or is this really the case?
2. Did I think that GRBurster was Iantresman? The real issue, as I see it, was that you were willing to step up for this user even with a contribution history that showed mostly disruption vis-a-vis my account. When this is your ninth edit, I think that something smells fishy. And yet, you seem to have been unphased by this... as if someone cobbling together references from fairly-well buried arbitration cases, a peculiar obsession with my edit history (which, in case you haven't noticed, is very difficult to follow), and a knack for knowing just precisely how to phrase a complaint to get maximum attention was somehow not suspicious. You say you were distracted by Tim Vicker's red herring. Okay, I can see that. But even so, couldn't you come up with a justification on your own? You said yourself you looked at the contribution history, but apparently, you didn't see anything untoward. Why the tolerance for an account that immediately starts going after me with a level of sophistication that screams sockpuppet?
3. I like your idea of performing rolling checkusers on all indef-blocked/banned users, but I believe that this might not be practical. How many blocked/banned users are there? How many hours in a week? What would be a good schedule on which to do this?

ScienceApologist (talk) 08:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

1. The most recent direct comment that I recall making on your editing (or rather on your edit summaries) was at the ANI thread archived here. If I have the time, I will try and locate the other times in the last few months where I have commented in threads or discussions involving or concerning you. That could take some time though, so if you have examples, that would help. From memory, I do recall mentally agreeing with some of your actions and comments, and mentally disagreeing with others (as I do with most people). Only when I strongly disagree, or am already involved in a discussion, would I have tended to comment in writing. As an example, I noticed the slew of AfDs that you started recently when you came across someone's list (in their userspace) of articles they had started, but I didn't comment on that (before now), though I do have opinions in general on high rates of nominations for AfD (I think the rate of nomination should be tied in someway to the rates of article creation and article clean-up - thus keeping a balance in the system).
2. I was indeed distracted by Tim's red herring, and that accounts for a large part of what I said at the actual checkuser request. Once it was revealed by Thatcher that this was a sockpuppet account, obviously I took another look, and that's what led to what I said in point 5 at the ANI thread: "was it because he (Thatcher) saw a new account (self-admitted as an experienced editor), editing physics articles, who had made an ANI post criticising User:ScienceApologist, and alarm bells began to ring?" I think part of the reason I'm slower than others to see this sort of thing is that I have a strong instinct to presume innocence, and I also have a strong instinct to look at the contributions, not the contributor. I do feel very strongly that bad arguments and poor criticisms can be refuted regardless of who says them, so I usually take a pragmatic approach of responding to a post rather than looking first to see how old an account is, or what the history of the account is. Quite frankly, if I assumed all new accounts were sockpuppets, I'd go crazy. You are quite right, though, that I should have been more alert to this with Grburster, and for that I apologise.
3. I was under the impression that the checkusers already did do routine checks on banned accounts. If they don't, or only do so sporadically, there might be an argument for doing so in some automated fashion. I suggest you take up the idea at Wikipedia talk:Checkuser.

I hope discussing things further has helped. I do have other questions to answer and other things to do, so I hope you'll understand that I can't spend too much more time on this. If you have time, though, I'd like to ask you a few questions. I did notice that you have asked another candidate whether they would recuse in cases involving you, and I have noticed in some ANI threads that you claim that some administrators are too 'involved' to take action. Could I ask whether you have a clear definition of what you consider 'involved' with regards to you and your editing? Carcharoth (talk) 08:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Involved usually means that the administrator has taken a position vis-a-vis the general situation in which I am constantly involved. The user to which you are referring has stated on more than one occasion that he thinks that civility trumps content contributions, and, as such, has asked for harsh judgments be made in a particular direction in such cases. I am all for people taking sides, but I think once administrators do that they must necessarily get their actions reviewed by other administrators. In that particular case, the user also left Wikipedia for a time in part because of interactions with me. I find it hard to believe that this makes this administrator impartial. There are roughly six administrators whom I feel are too compromised to use their administrator tools responsibly when I'm involved. I can list them for you privately. You are not one of them. ScienceApologist (talk) 06:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. I agree that in some situations, administrators getting their actions reviewed by other administrators is absolutely needed. I would hope that if I was ever in such a situation that I would recognise it, or at least listen to people telling me that I was involved. Carcharoth (talk) 13:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom Candidate Template

Hello, fellow candidate! Just so you know, in an effort to announce our candidacies and raise further awareness of the election, I have created the template {{ACE2008Candidate}}, which I would invite you to place on your user and user talk pages. The template is designed to direct users to your Questions and Discussion pages, as well as to further information about the election. Best of luck in the election! Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 16:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I'm probably not going to use the template, though, as I don't want those pass by my talk page and who are not interested in the election (and who are busy writing the encyclopedia) to be distracted. Anyone who is interested in the election should be aware by now of who is running (WP:ACE2008 and the sitenotice). Though having said that, as I'm letting jc37 to do a 'campaign' template, that might sound a bit strange. Really, the issue is that I don't want templates advertising the election on my user pages. On other people's pages is fine, but I'd prefer to keep this little corner sane for the next month! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 00:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom election

• User:Jc37/Userboxes/Carcharoth4Arbcom

• User:Jc37/Userboxes/Deskana4Arbcom
• User:Jc37/Userboxes/NYB4Arbcom
• User:Jc37/Userboxes/Raul6544Arbcom

Per the above three (which were created through discussion with those under discussion), I'd like to select three candidates to do the same with this year, and you're one of the three. (Though I may decide to pick 4 or 5 this year, it's quite a selection.)

So if you don't strongly oppose the idea, would you help by suggesting/selecting a few appropriate images? - jc37 11:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer. I don't object, but I'd want to choose the image. I was thinking something suitably lupine or canine. A few ideas I've found so far:

• Cute picture (soulful eyes)
• Serious looking doggy (needs cropping)

If you (or anyone reading this) can find any similar or better or different pictures, please suggest them. I don't want to spend too long on this, though, as there are 101 other things to do during these elections. Absolute madness and mayhem! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

• commons:Category:Wolf icons
• commons:Category:Statues of wolves
• commons:Category:Wolves in heraldry
• commons:Category:Fenrir

Among quite a few other ones for dogs and wolves : ) - jc37 03:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Or this or this one, properly cropped. This one looks mean, while this one is more pensive. Risker (talk) 04:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

While it may be "more" than you may want, I have to agree that Image:Canis lupus portrait.jpg would seem to have the closest "look" so far of the M-E creature, at least : ) - jc37 04:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've been considering the above, and what I've decided is to go with Image:Tibetian Bandog.JPG, mainly because I like the picture and because it's a Bandog (Ban-dog - geddit?). Suitable quotes from the Bandog article include: "Bandogge which is a huge dog, stubborn, uglier, eager, burthenouse of bodie, terrible and fearful to behold and often more fierce and fell than any Archadian or Corsican cur" and "[Modern strains are] celebrated for their stable temperaments and outstanding working qualities". Hope that's enough to work with. As I said, the image may need cropping to focus on the dog. If that's a problem (license doesn't allow it, or you need someone to crop it), let me know. Carcharoth (talk) 01:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

My main concerns were no fair use (since it's a userbox for userspace) and that you're fine with it : )

• User:Jc37/Userboxes/Carcharoth4Arbcom. - jc37 03:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I noticed the campaign idea, and thought it was a great one! - I've copied a privately musing version into my userspace pending the development of a killer slogan - but thought I should swing by here and mention that your current version points to last years election.. don't you have a 100% success rate, btw? - I hope the selected few know what they're letting themselves in for! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 07:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the link error. Hopefuly Jc37 will check back here and notice this. I should probably make one thing clear at this stage. Apart from talk page threads like this, I'm not having any notices or banners in my userspace about these elections. Suggesting an image for this campaignbox, created by Jc37, and approving of its use by others, is as far as I'm going in that direction. Otherwise things start to get silly. Carcharoth (talk) 13:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, oops. I'll fix the date/link post-haste : ) - jc37 17:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Good luck on your arbcom candidacy. I'd be shocked if you weren't voted in, you're definitely great at dispute resolution. Wizardman 16:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Good luck to you as well. Carcharoth (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion page for your candidacy

 Done. My apologies - too much copying and pasting for one morning, there. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 03:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

While I'm at it, I have posted the list of General Questions to your questions page. I think one or two may have been added since you printed the list off, as an FYI - and I preserved your notation of intent to answer questions and so forth. Best, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll update my printout tomorrow. Carcharoth (talk) 21:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Peer Review request

I'm wondering if you'd mind reviewing Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle here. I'm trying to bring it up to Featured Article standards, so if you'd review based on those standards, it'd be wonderful.

Thanks! --haha169 (talk) 06:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the late reply, but I don't have time to do this right now. Possibly tomorrow or later in the week. Carcharoth (talk) 14:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Essay now in Wikipedia space

Hi Carcharoth, thanks again for commenting on the essay I was drafting. I've incorporated several of your suggestions, and have now moved it to Wikipedia:On privacy, confidentiality and discretion, if you'd like to take a look. Good luck in your campaign. Risker (talk) 15:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Obscure image question

If I remember correctly, you always know the answers to arcane copyright/fair-use/free-use questions – appreciate you're rather busy at the moment, but are you able to wade in on this thread, before my talkpage starts to resemble ANI? (Short version, to avoid wading through flames; is it acceptable to include a picture of a grave inscription including a still-in-copyright poem in an article on the person in said grave? She's most notable for her grave, so it's de facto the subject of the article, at least in part. If so, would it be under fair or free use? Just to muddy the water further, said grave is in Buenos Aires and nobody seems to know if Argentina is covered by freedom of panorama.) The question has provoked some – er – unusually heated exchanges. Any intervention by you (or anyone else watching this page who knows the answer) would be most welcome. – iridescent 03:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Goodness, I completely forgot about this. Sorry. If you still need some advice, please ask. Carcharoth (talk) 14:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of The Electras

I have nominated The Electras, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Electras. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Dweller (talk) 11:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems to have been resolved now. FWIW, I didn't create the article content, but I did recreate that title as a redirect following a PROD deletion, and someone else later turned it into an article. Uncle G later restored the history showing the original creation of the article before the PROD deletion. Maybe TWINKLE needs tweaking to help people see this sort of thing? Carcharoth (talk) 12:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's a strange one, isn't it? --Dweller (talk) 12:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom questions

Hi. I'm Ral315, editor of the Wikipedia Signpost. We're interviewing all ArbCom candidates for an article this week, and your response is requested.

1. What positions do you hold (adminship, mediation, etc.), on this or other wikis?

2. Have you been involved in any arbitration cases? In what capacity?

3. Why are you running for the Arbitration Committee?

4. How do you feel the Arbitration Committee has handled cases and other situations over the last year? Can you provide an examples of situations where you feel the Committee handled a situation exceptionally well, and why? Any you feel they handled poorly, and why?

5. What is your opinion on confidentiality? If evidence is submitted privately to the Committee, would you share it with other parties in the case? Would you make a decision based on confidential information without making it public?

6. Why do you think users should vote for you?

Please respond on my talk page. We'll probably go to press on Tuesday, but late responses will be added as they're submitted. Thanks, Ral315 (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Queried what time zone the deadline is in. Carcharoth (talk) 21:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Tuesday whenever I get done :) Sorry, I meant to add "(UTC)" there as well. It'll probably be sometime late Tuesday UTC, looking at my schedule as of right now. Ral315 (talk) 14:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

I do not believe there is a standard archiving of those notes, no.--Tznkai (talk) 18:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Election

All the best Carcharoth. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Fibromyalgia / CFS

Hi Carcharoth, I'd like to hear your opinion on this. Yesterday, I made a good number of constructive edits at Fibromyalgia and various CFS articles. Without exception, they were all reverted by Orangemarlin (on Fibromyalgia) and RetroS1mone. Orangemarlin alone reverted over a dozen edits including some by other editors, without any explanation.

I did not re-revert a single time, but reported them for their editwarring on the noticeboard. Now I am faced with numerous users asking for sanctions against me for 'frivolous reports'.

I'm at a loss here, any advice is appreciated. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 18:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm rather busy at the moment. Can it wait until after the weekend? If not, I'd suggest asking someone else. Sorry about that. Carcharoth (talk) 21:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I did, and got attacked even more. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 01:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Orangemarlin has again reverted all other people's edits at Fibromyalgia, thereby a.o. reintroducing an erroneous pmid number for the umptieth time, reintroducing copyvio, and reintroducing a fact-tag, replacing the provided source.[1] Please advise. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 22:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

User:RetroS1mone keeps reverting on sight as well, for days on end now. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 09:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time to get involved now. I'm prepared to give advice on those pages when I have time, but when I am busy with other things I really don't have time. Look at my contribs and you will see what is taking all my time at the moment. My advice would be to keep trying to discuss things on the talk pages, and to keep track of the edits you think are "reverting on sight", but to be aware of whether you are also "reverting on sight" (I don't know if you are or not, I'm just saying that you may need to look at your editing as well). That is really all I have time for. Carcharoth (talk) 09:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll make a list for RetroS1mone as well (already did so for Orangemarlin, he does not respond). I am careful not to copy their behaviour, although the nature of their reverts (reintroducing OR and factual errors) makes it tempting. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 10:03, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. But please don't put the list here on my talk page, and be careful how you describe the edits, and make clear on whatever page you do this on that you are gathering evidence for a more detailed post eventually (e.g. a draft request for comments). Also, keep issues of content and behaviour separate. If anyone challenges you, stop and discuss it with them. This sort of thing is allowed to a certain extent, but it does have to be done with care. I believe there was a recent arbitration motion about this, and such pages have been challenged and deleted in the past. See here and here. In other words, if you are going to create such a list, only do so for a short time, and then use it in a stage of dispute resolution (don't leave it hanging around for ages). Finally, I should warn you that it is likely that if you do this, that someone will start a similar page on your behaviour (as several people do clearly have ongoing concerns about your behaviour, such as the reports you made about edit warring - I haven't had time to look in detail at that yet). Oh, and for anyone else reading this, I would offer this advice to anyone who asked. The fact that it was Guido who asked is not a factor. Carcharoth (talk) 10:17, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, for now I was intending to put it in on the article talk page(s) and then ask for an explanation of the individual edits and edit summaries. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 10:26, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

That should be fine, though be careful to describe the edits accurately. Carcharoth (talk) 10:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

And there we go again .... [2] Can something be done about this user's continuous hostile attitude? Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 23:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Guido I am not hostile to you, i do not mind you are conspiring with Carcharoth, i encourage you, pls make a list of my edits. I am trying to follow policy like I understand, use reliable sources, avoid OR et cetera and not edit war. Your disruptive behavior for months and months makes difficult the goals. RetroS1mone talk 23:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh, guys, can you take this to another page? RetroS1mone, I'm not consipring with Guido. I said above that the advice I gave him I would give to anyone. In fact, I am going to give you the same advice - go and make a list of edits that Guido has made that you have a problem with, and then you should both talk to each other and work out what needs to happen next. But please don't do it here. Carcharoth (talk) 23:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

OK sorry. Thx, RetroS1mone talk 11:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Cough

• Wikipedia:Proposed Deletion for a Hoax

Uncle G (talk) 14:47, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Admin Ethics and Standards

Hi Carcharoth,

Would love your thoughts on this deletion review [3] because I admire your straight forwardness and experience as an admin and how you understand the adminship on Wiki better than most. The original article in question was "speedy deleted" after being listed here on Wikipedia for over two years and having endured an AfD before. The admin in question deleted links from the original article then used his "speedy delete" powers to delete it. When questioned, the article went before a 2nd AfD, at which time the admin in question allowed the article to be judged, sans his link deletion of credible sources from the original state of the article. When the sources were added during the 2nd AfD, the admin would delete them and eventually block them, including a link to a page here [4] on Wikipedia (Wikipedia approved pages should be a credible source) where the notability of the person (article in question) was clearly established by the University of Texas, San Antonio. You appear very knowledgeable in these matters and do not appear to be the type described in this article, [5] and because of this, we request your help in overturning an improper deletion. Thank you for your time. --72.191.15.133 (talk) 19:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)