Talk:Jewish extremist terrorism

Under development

This article is under development.

Siddiqui 20:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I am reverting Siddiqui's edit because

• it does not distinguish between Judaism and Zionism.
• ummah.com does not qualify as a reputable source.
• it is wrong to have such discrepancy in titles as Jewish terrorism but Palestinian political violence. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You cannot make this unilateral change without fully disucssing this issue. We have articles like Islamic Terrorism and that would also have to be changed (or redirected) at the sametime. May be you first should change/redirect 'Islamic Terrorism' to 'Islamic political violence'. This kind of unilateral and one sided censorship should be avaoided.

Siddiqui 21:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

If there is something wrong with another article, please discuss and edit that other article, don't channelize your anger at Jews. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Islamic Terrorism redirects to Islamic extremist terrorism. Siddiqui, you make it hard to assume good faith. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You have committed double reversion within 24 hours and I will report you to Wikipedia person

Siddiqui 21:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

There's no rule against double reversion.--Urthogie 08:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

November 2007 Edit

I reverted the edit that changed the article from a redirect to a stub. The information is already covered in Zionist political violence. Moreover, it appears that this edit was the result of a dispute at Islamic Terrorism. Dchall1 (talk) 03:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Neither Jewish Defense League nor Kach or Kahane Chai are covered in Zionist political violence.
2. Why do you redirect to Religious terrorism if you think, that Zionist political violence covers the topic?
3. Don't you think there's some bias, if we have Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism but no Jewish terrorism?

--Raphael1 21:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Feel free to add the JDL & Kach info to the Zionist political violence article.
2. I reverted the page to where it was before it was edited. You're right that it should more accurately redirect to Zionist political violence.
3. Names of other pages don't matter. You can take up the discussion at the Zionist political violence talk page, but any discussion probably won't get noticed here. Besides, names of other articles have no bearing here. See WP:OTHERSTUFF. Dchall1 (talk) 22:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Zionism was a secular nationalist philosophy, not a religious one (indeed, prior to 1948 most Jewish religious denominations, from Reform to Orthodox, opposed Zionism) so the parallel with Christian and Islamist terrorism fails. On the other hand, both the Jewish Defense League and Kach/Kahane Chai are actually mentioned in Religious terrorism#Jewish, and both of these groups were religious; per Raphael1's examples, Religious terrorism#Jewish. Based on the above, I'm re-directing to the more appropriate spot. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, there is no mention of those organisations on the article you refer to. Dchal, Jayjg is right, the parallel with Christian and Muslim terrorism fails. As they seem to be more Jewish than Zionist, the Zionist political violence article isn't a suitable place for them. Based on this, I've decided that a redirect is not appropriate.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 12:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Your argument contradicts itself. First, you say that the organization are "more Jewish than Zionist" (presumably you meant "religious Jewish"), and then you say that a redirect to Religious terrorism#Jewish "is not appropriate". Thus, I am restoring the redirect, please do not do such sweeping edits without first getting consensus for them. Beit Or 14:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Religious terrorism#Jewish does not exist, as the religious terrorism article does not even mention Jewish terrorism. If that's the kind of argument you're making, I'm compelled to restore the text.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 14:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This stub has no value, and is in any case misleadingly labeled. It should be merged elsewhere. IronDuke 18:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Leaving aside your opinion on its value for the moment, why do you say it's misleadingly labelled?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 18:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

As a reminder, this article is under the scope of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. As an uninvolved administrator, I have wide latitude in restrictions that I can place on the article, as well as discretionary sanctions on the involved editors. So please, stop with the edit-warring, and discuss differences at the talkpage. Thanks, --Elonka 16:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

As Jewish can refer to either the religion or the ethnic group, I propose moving this article to Jewish religious terrorism. Thoughts?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 11:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this still a stub?

I've readded the {{judaism-stub}} template since it was removed without explaination (and the article still looks like a stub by any criteria) in this change: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jewish_religious_terrorism&diff=220569148&oldid=220569013

I'm no expert on the subject, so I'm redirecting any discussion here (to avoid any edit warring).

--Blaisorblade (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Early 20th century

What about Jewish bombs and such targeting British early in the 20th century, during the campaign to create the state of Isreal? Irgun, Lehi and so on? Sources: "Increased Jewish immigration, which had begun in the late 19th century, provoked both Arab unrest and Jewish terrorism aimed at ending the British administration" [1]; "The British feared that their failure to control Jewish terrorism would turn Palestinian Arabs against them" [2]; "Actions were stepped up through 1945 and 1946, by which time Jewish terrorism had cost the lives of 373 people in Palestine" [3]... It should be mentioned, and if it falls outside religious, Jewish terrorism should be changed from redirect into an article. Alternatively, this article may need to be moved back to its previous title (Jewish terrorism). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

adding to the article.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Search results

Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use the most easily recognized name:

1. "Jewish terrorism" Results about 20,800
2. "Jewish religious terrorism" - (minus) Wikipedia Results 3

--Poeticbent talk 01:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I have to say that I don't fully grasp the logic of the old move (as explained at #Proposed move) that added the "religious". I'd think that ethnic is more important here anyway, but there is no need for clarification in name... PS. See also my comments at Talk:Zionist_political_violence#Jewish_terrorism_2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There may be Jewish religious terrorism, and I see, rather to my surprise, that one of PB's three hits is on Kahane; but I don't think it's the natural description of this page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

"New Jewish underground"

Which reliable source has stated that the pipe bomb planted by an alleged new "Jewish undergound" is an example of "Jewish terrorism"? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate it when people blame the Jews for these things, but YnetNews headlines "Attack on professor Jewish terror". I don't think that's favorite reading material for those who take their views from Holocaust Deniers. Also at Sky News "Israeli authorities are hunting a Jewish terrorist cell thought to be behind an attack on a supporter of the country's peace movement". PR^talk 09:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge Zionist Terrorism Here ?

I think this is appropriate, but perhaps a summary should be made here- other thoughts?93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Religious Terrorism?

Why is secular Jewish terrorism not covered here, and where should it be covered if not here?93.96.148.42 (talk) 05:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Terrorism

Why is it not neutral to list Irgun here? Are you disputing that they were Jewish terrorists? Do you know what neutrality means? The article is biased, I was trying to add to it.93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

You are obviously pushing a POV. Every single word you type is dripping with bias. I know quite well what neutrality means, tell me, do you? Most of your edits tonight barely skirt the edge of blatant POV, that one in particular went way over it. Trusilver 07:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

which one?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

This[4] was a edit that was designed to push an agenda. All of your talk page comments make it clear where your bias is. Because of this, you need to be twice as careful not to give the impression you are trying to push articles in direction of your own point of view. Trusilver 07:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, don't make personal attacks, and explain why Irgun should not be included in "Jewish Terrorism" - do you disagree that they were jews who described themselves as terrorists?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall disagreeing with inclusion. It is your slant and bias to the inclusion that I disagree with. Look at the reversion before your edit - It was well written and NPOV. Look at yours - It...wasn't. Trusilver 07:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

you object to "jewish terror groups were involved in the creation of israel. " - not the inclusion of irgun as a jewish terrorist organisation? How would you phrase it?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I definitely would include Irgun as a Jewish terrorist organization. If they aren't, then who is? But "Jewish terror groups were involved in the creation of Israel" give the definite implication that the involvement was direct and not just paralleling its creation. That's far more conjecture than it is documented fact. It's the subtleties of the phrasing that suggest the deeper meaning. Trusilver 08:08, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Your most recent edit sounds slightly awkward, but is much more neutral in my opinion. Trusilver 08:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Very glad - am not wishing to be biased, but to correct and build a great encyclopaedia! - Bit worried someone else will remove it though93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this should move to the talk page there?93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to include ANYTHING as WHATEVER, please, provide wp:rs secondary sources that state that ANYTHING is WHATEVER. For Lehi (resp. Irgun), it means to provide a wp:rs secondary sources that proves that the goals of these organisations what religious (and no political).

Given it is not the case, good luck. Ceedjee (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The IP editor was told, by Trusilver above (with whom he is otherwise in disagreement), that "include Irgun as a Jewish terrorist organization". There appears to be good RS (either their own words, or that of the subset Lehi) that the cause was religious. There needs to be a clear explanation of what is religious and what is political terrorism (and whether we're allowed to treat it as ethnic?) in the article, and there also needs to be some indication of where to find the other kind/s, otherwise the project will remain mired in this kind of time-wasting and article damaging to-and-fro. But I must congratulate you on the good-faith you showed moving the referenced information that you thought was out of place to the TalkPage below. PR^talk 12:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

"Jewish terrorism" is terrorism done in the name of Judaism. Don't confuse ethnic and political movements with religious ones. Fatah was/is a Palestinian organization, not a Muslim one. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

While I whole-heartedly agree we should avoid linking religions to criminal behavior as far as possible, this article can hardly avoid mentioning that some of the terrorists indeed claimed their actions were terrorism and were motivated by religion. The Lehi newspaper in 1943 (Heller, p115) said "Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle. ... We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: "Obliterate — until destruction".

And I note that the immensely tendacious use of "Judeah and Samaria" continues at this article, despite the exhaustive evidence that's it's entirely partisan and has virtually no modern useage other than by POV objectors to the univerally accepted legal position. PR^talk 12:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

PR, please stop soapboxing, and instead use this Talk: page to discuss proposed content changes to this article. I'll be removing any further off-topic comments. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Moved material

Zionist groups in the British Mandate of Palestine fighting for a Jewish Homeland used terrorism. Between 1945 and the Independence of Israel, 784 British and Danish soldiers were buried in Palestine by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, out of a total of 1200 foreign nationals and Palestine Police known to be buried there. By 1946 Jewish terrorism had cost the lives of 373 people in Palestine.[5]

- by me. Ceedjee (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

"Jewish terrorism" is terrorism committed by Jews, as Jews

Where does the idea come from that "Jewish terrorism" means religious terrorism - the name of the article is "Jewish terrorism".

• Please provide a reasoned response, preferably with references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Failing a response I have reinstated Zionist terrorist groups.93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

As discussed above, "religous terrorism" is terrorism done in the name of religion. I'm thus about to revert your edit, as was done by others before. Regards, ליאור (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

IP 93, you have already been explained this at other places and you didn't even answer. See WP:Battlefield Ceedjee (talk) 20:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I've read this talk page and haven't found a proper answer to the question several editors have asked: Exactly who says "Jewish terrorism" = "religious Jewish terrorism"? Its difficult to escape the impression that this arbitrary restriction, apparently unique to Wikipedia, has been put in simply in order to avoid inclusion of groups like Lehi and Irgun in the category. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There is an article titled zionist political violence where the actions of IZL and LHI are reported.~Copy/pasting the point of view that their actions would be a form of terrorism is wp:soap and wp:battleground.

It was useful to have this discussion.

Indeed, it shows that the racist idea (and even illegal in Europe) that a form a violence could be linked to an ethnicicity (and so with some genetic grounds), such as the fact being a Jew or a white or an Arab, and not linked to cultural or social reason, such as the fact defending a muslim or jewish nationalist concept, defending western values, ...) can still be suggested today.

If somebody finds wp:rs studies where it is reported the "extraordinary claim" that terrorism would have been practiced by jews to defend their ethnicity (as in Rwanda in the 90ties) and not what they consider(ed) to defend the zionism rights or the judaism rights), we can discuss about this.

The idea that "zionism is racism" because it defends the existence of an "ethnical entity" in the Jewish State/Israel is controversed and, per wp:soap should not be put forward in the meaning we give to titles in wikipedia.

This controversy is also explained and detailled in other places.

Ceedjee (talk) 10:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with most of that, but I feel the question wasn't addressed why "Jewish terrorism" should be restricted to mean "religious Jewish terrorism". If there should be a category named "Jewish terrorism" at all, either the current title is misleading, or the current content is incomplete. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

If it is just an issue of title, "jewish terrorism" or "religious jewish terrorism" could be replaced by Neo-Zionist political violence (see Neo-Zionism), which is more factual, clearer and more npov. Ceedjee (talk) 10:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I feel that would narrow the scope further, not broaden it. Is there any way you can see a category that encompasses both Israeli settler terrorism (religiously motivated or not), non-Israeli groups like Jewish Defense League, and proto-Israeli groups like Lehi and Irgun? MeteorMaker (talk) 10:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I see 3 forms of political violence related to this topic :

• Zionist political violence between 1920 and 1948
• Israeli political violence to be created
• Neo-zionist political violence in replacement of Jewish terrorism and where JDL could be added.

All this can have a mother category which for npov should be category:Political violence in the Arab-Israeli conflict and where we would also find Palestinian political violence, Islamist political violence, ...

Ceedjee (talk) 11:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Please STOP ARGUING and explain WHO says Jewish terrorism is restricted to Religious terrorism. Here is an Israeli source that obviously doesn't. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1043413.html There is no reason why Irgun should not be listed here as well as under Zionist political violence, if it fits both categories. Ceedjee has a declared bias in favour of Israel.93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

http://hnn.us/articles/832.html as well.93.96.148.42 (talk) 06:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Jewish terrorism -> Neo-Zionist political violence ?

There has been long discussion and disputes around the article Jewish terrorism. According to the different points of views in different talk pages :

• "Jewish" dimension should only be religious and not ethnical, and therefore Jewish is not clear
• the "zionist" dimension in the causes of Jewish terrorism should be emphasized
• "terrorism" still remains a wp:words to avoid and political violence is more neutral.

The article Neo-Zionism explains the origin of these wording used by different scholars working in the field of sociology and study of nationalism...
What would you think about the move from Jewish terrorism to Neo-Zionist political violence ? Ceedjee (talk) 10:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I feel that would still make the inclusion of Irgun and Lehi problematic. To repeat my question above, is there any way you can see a category that encompasses both Israeli settler terrorism (religiously motivated or not), non-Israeli groups like Jewish Defense League, and proto-Israeli groups like Lehi and Irgun? MeteorMaker (talk) 11:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I have answered above. Irgun and Lehi political violence has nothing to deal with Jewish terrorism. They are examples of Zionist political violence because the aims of these organisations (as well as Haganah and Palmah) was to defend the political objectives of Zionism (this is explained in the article zionist political violence.

JDL could be added in neo-zionism political violence, because they share neo-zionist views and in fact represent this mouvement outside Israel. Ceedjee (talk) 11:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) OK, I see you've answered it (in the section above). EDIT: The next sentence is based on my misunderstanding that the suggested mother category would replace the existing ones. Fine, but some problems remain: For instance, the Jewish Defense League wouldn't fit in the suggested new ME-specific category any more. It would be a good complement to the existing categories though. I frankly still don't understand by what standards the all-Jewish Zionist groups Irgun and Lehi weren't Jewish. The restriction that in order for something to qualify as "Jewish terrorism", it must have a religious dimension seems entirely arbitrary (at best). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Concerning IZL and LHI members : most of them were ethnically Jews, religious jews, white and bisexual. But the fact they were ethnically Jew, ethnically white, culturally heterosexual or culturally religious Jews has nothing to deal with what they did. IZL and LHI members motivations were linked with their political view concerning zionism. Are we going to create the category "heterosexual terrorism" ?
• Concerning the restriction of jewish terrorism to the religious dimension, that is "arbitrary" but no more than not restricting this, except the non-restriction is additionnaly a racist theory that is not supported by wp:rs sources. Your argument is pointed out at the top of this section to suggest the move to Neo-Zionist political violence which is more clear. Ceedjee (talk) 11:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

No, we are not going to create the category "heterosexual terrorism", but entirely arbitrary restrictions that aren't deducible from the cat name are not ideal either — to expand on your example, it's like we find that an additional arbitrary restriction has been imposed on the category so that anybody who isn't homosexual doesn't fit the category any more. How about simply renaming this cat "Jewish religiously motivated terrorism"? MeteorMaker (talk) 11:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's what I originally answered Ceedjee: It seems to me (mostly from the infobox) like this article exists mainly is part of the terrorism series that also includes Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism, so the religious aspect seems to be the main thing here. Asides from that, since the article just mention Kach and the Gush Emunim Underground, it might as well be merged into Violence in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, since that's where Terrorism in Israel redirects.

I think we have enough specific articles. Lehi, Irgun et al. belong in Zionist political violence; Kach, Gush Emunim Underground and Avrushmi belong in Violence in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Or, we could merge Violence in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict into Zionist political violence, which would be compatible with Palestinian political violence. -- Nudve (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Correction: I mistook this for the talk page of CATEGORY:Jewish terrorism, so some of my comments should be read in that light. However, my main objection stands: There is no way the title "Jewish terrorism" indicates that this is an article about "Jewish religious terrorism". I know "Jewish" is a word with many meanings, but insisting on one where the others are equally valid is just unnecessarily confusing. What do you think of my suggestion to rename it? MeteorMaker (talk) 12:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism are both defined as religious terrorism, so I suppose Jewish terrorism should be defined similarly. Kach and the Gush Emunim Underground are both religious Zionist organizations, so theoretically they could fit into both Zionist political violence and Jewish terrorism. Maybe it's best ot just leave things as they are; in case someone can come up with non-Zionist Jewish terrorists. What are you suggesting we rename it to? -- Nudve (talk) 15:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

If we rename "Jewish terrorism" to "Zionist violence", I assume we'll be likewise renaming "Islamic terrorism" to "Caliphate-establishing militant actions" ? "Communist terrorism" to "Unilateral deeds of a guerrilla nature intended to ensure the equality of all people" ? Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 16:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The nearest parallel would be if category:Islamic terrorism were similarly invisibly restricted to mean "Caliphate-establishing militant actions" while still retaining the name "Islamic terrorism". The title is misleading and if the article (and category) are about Jewish religious terrorism, the name should be precisely that and not a much broader category. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

An alternative solution to answer your point is to move to "jewish religious terrorism" but JDL cannot be included. Ceedjee (talk) 07:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

JDL is not included in this article anyway, so I think there isn't much that stops us from implementing that idea. Currently, the lead says "Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretations of Judaism" which appears entirely arbitrary. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I answered you it is not totally arbitrary but just obvious. Anyway, it could be renamed "jewish religious terrorism" Ceedjee (talk) 09:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree it's obvious at all, since "Jewish" is not exclusively a religious category like "Christian" and "Islamic". But yes, I think the new name (which I also suggested early on in this discussion) is much less confusing. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

You wrote in the section above (before this one) you agreed that the ethnical interpratation was a racist idea.

Whatever, let's wait for some days to read other comments and eventually proceed to the move.

Ceedjee (talk) 09:46, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi guys, I was just reading this discussion. I agree with the contention above that "Jewish terrorism" is ambiguous since "Jewish" can mean a religion or an ethnic group. I think the proposed "Jewish religious terrorism" is a good way to solve the problem. By the way, JDL and LHI were inspired by Jewish religious ideas, and Irgun to a lesser extent. Just to be clear, my comments do not endorse any position in the complex issue of "terrorism" vs. "political violence". Keep up the good work. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 18:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Is the PLO a religous organisation?

It should be removed from Palestinian Political violence, by the logic above, as it is a secular organisation.93.96.148.42 (talk) 06:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

If it were religious, it would qualify as Islamic terrorism. -- Nudve (talk) 06:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Terrorism is Settlers in Hebron

I notice that over a month, no one has been able to give references to the statement in the lead that Jewish terrorism refers to religiously motivated acts. I have therefore removed that unreferenced, and controversial (see above) statement from the lead.93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

This article is about a form of religious terrorism, much like Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism. It should not be defined by someone it has been attributed to. Otherwise, we could define Islamic terrorism as "a term used to describe Osama Bin Laden. -- Nudve (talk) 06:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

please explain why the sources I give do not suit you. try and find some of your own. Rpeating the same thing 10 times does not make it true!93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say they do not suit me. I've kept the Haaretz editorial (despite the fact it is arguably given undue weight), but moved it to the appropriate section (Settlers). I have produced a source that gives an encyclopedic definition and a proper introduction to the article (see WP:LEDE). Please help us reach consensus instead of edit-warring. -- Nudve (talk) 07:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Your source describe judaism and terrorism, not jewish terrorism , and says "In the 1940s, Zionist militants such as Lehi (known also as the Stern Gang) carried out terrorist attacks against the British in Palestine. In the late 20th century, militant messianic Zionists use religious claims to the historical land of Israel to justify acts of violence. " Why have you deleted the text about the Stern Gang?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Please rewrite - just don't delete. Your source -http://terrorism.about.com/od/politicalislamterrorism/tp/Religious-terrorism.htm - doesn't mention "jewish terrorism" - but does mention the stern gang!93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Not only odes it mention the stern gang, but it got the article reverted by XLinkBot. Please take more care with your references.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:07, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Why is my work Being Deleted

I spent a lot of time writing the following, referenced text. It was deleted within minutes. Please suggest improvements I could make to the references or the content, as it would be a shame if the article was to be incomplete!

• Jewish terrorism' is used to describe the violent actions of extremist Zionists such as the Stern Gang prior to the establishment of the state of Israel http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/american_jewish_history/v092/92.3raider.html http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/15/opinion/oe-gelernter15 , and the anti-arab http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/0/0/7/9/p200799_index.html, behavior of Jewish settlers in Hebron and other areas of the West Bank http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1043413.html . is religious terrorism committed by Jews who interpret Judaism to justify violence. Militant messianic Zionists used religious claims to the historical land of Israel to justify acts of violence.Cite web

| last = Zalman | first = Amy | title = Religious terrorism: a primer on terrorism and religion | work = About.com | accessdate = 2009-02-19 | url = http://terrorism.about.com/od/politicalislamterrorism/tp/Religious-terrorism.htm } 93.96.148.42 (talk) 18:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Stern Gang is not jewish terrorism. Violence practiced by Stern Gang was with the aim of promoting zionism. How many times was this said ?

Easy to improve. A moment.

Ceedjee (talk) 18:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The Stern Gang were Jewish, they were trying to create a Jewish homeland, as described in the bible. They described themselves as Jewish terrorists.93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:43, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Before the State of Israel

I spent a lot of time writing the following, referenced text. It was deleted within minutes. Please suggest improvements I could make to the references or the content, as it would be a shame if the article was to be incomplete!

Main articles: Zionist political violence, List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s, and List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war

There were repeated confrontations between Palestine’s Jewish community and Jewish terrorists. A famous one followed the 1944 murder in Cairo of Lord Moyne, the British minister-resident in the Middle East, by the terrorist Stern Gang. In response, the shocked and revolted Jewish community hunted down terrorists relentlessly, turning over more than 700 names to the British.

There were truces too, when the Jewish authorities (desperately outgunned and outnumbered in their war for independence) tried to co-opt two terrorist groups, the Stern Gang and the Irgun, into the regular army. But the Sternists and the Irgun invariably returned to terror, shattering the truce.

Jewish terrorism was stamped out at last after a U.N. mediator was assassinated in late 1948. Israel’s new Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion ordered: “Arrest all Stern Gang leaders. Surround all Stern bases. Confiscate all arms. Kill any who resist.” Soon afterward, the Irgun also bit the dust.http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/15/opinion/oe-gelernter1593.96.148.42 (talk) 07:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I have moved this here :

Before the State of Israel

Main articles: Zionist political violence, List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s, and List of massacres committed during the 1948 Palestine war

There were repeated confrontations between Palestine’s Jewish community and Jewish terrorists. A famous one followed the 1944 murder in Cairo of Lord Moyne, the British minister-resident in the Middle East, by the terrorist Stern Gang. In response, the shocked and revolted Jewish community hunted down terrorists relentlessly, turning over more than 700 names to the British.

There were truces too, when the Jewish authorities (desperately outgunned and outnumbered in their war for independence) tried to co-opt two terrorist groups, the Stern Gang and the Irgun, into the regular army. But the Sternists and the Irgun invariably returned to terror, shattering the truce.

Jewish terrorism was stamped out at last after a U.N. mediator was assassinated in late 1948. Israel’s new Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion ordered: “Arrest all Stern Gang leaders. Surround all Stern bases. Confiscate all arms. Kill any who resist.” Soon afterward, the Irgun also bit the dust.

It has been explained to you many times that "jewish terrorism" was the religious one. See above. Ceedjee (talk) 18:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Move ?

Is there somebody who disagrees with the move to Jewish religious terrorism ? Ceedjee (talk) 18:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

go ahead and do it. It will hopefully clarify things, an avoid the repeated insertion of Lehi/Irgun/Hagannah that pops up every couple of weeks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:24, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Noted :-). Let's wait for a few more days and more minds, if any. Ceedjee (talk) 18:23, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I think jewish religious terrorism is a good idea for another article, as Jewish terrorism should cover terrorism by jews - Religious, Zionist, annarchist, etc...93.96.148.42 (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you answer to people who told you that :

• the article has been created at the same level as christian terrorism and islamic terrorism (as can be seen on the template terrorism in the article)
• there is no article in wikipedia that links terrorism to an ethnic group
• linking terrorism to an ethnic group is a racist concept.

Ceedjee (talk) 15:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I ask for a source that has validity. Please provide one.93.96.148.42 (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm wondering about this edit. Does the sentence that was deleted not characterize the people and organizations mentioned in the article? -- Nudve (talk) 15:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It should be put back. Ceedjee (talk) 16:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Be sure to quote the tense correctly if you do, it had been changed from present to past in the earlier article version. I think it's more urgent to try to find a cite that supports the claim "Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism committed by Jews who interpret Judaism to justify violence". The "religious" bit still seems entirely arbitrary. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:31, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

We have explained it has nothing to deal with a quote or a source here.

See Christian terrorism and Muslim terrorism.

Please, all of you, stop making as if you had not noticed both these article and this one Jewish terrorism are on the same level.

If somebody want to create an article about the Terrism performed by Jews, as an ethny, please create this (and prepare for the discussion on the RfD). Ceedjee (talk) 13:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

With all respect, I think the average user is more likely to go by the article name and never notices (or cares) that it's "on the same level" as Christian terrorism and Muslim terrorism. As I and others have said all the time, it's confusing that "Jewish" is arbitrarily used in the religious sense in this article. Re the "mistake" you claim I made [6] when I restored the Zionism cats, didn't you even suggest renaming the cat article Neo-Zionist political violence, which you said "is more factual, clearer and more npov"? [7] MeteorMaker (talk) 14:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

About the categories, please, read : Neo-Zionism. This has nothing to deal with zionist terrorism (that should be deleted) or zionist political violence in the British mandate of Palestine.

I suggested the move to Neo-Zionist political violence before Nudve pointed out that there was 3 articles in parallel. And anyway the Jewish religious political violence is only practiced by Neo-zionist, so it is synonym. But the former one is better with the idea that the 3 articles work in parallel. Ceedjee (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

If they are synonyms, and Neo-Zionism is a subset of Zionism, what is your problem with including this article in CAT:Zionist terrorism? Also, how can the reader safely infer "religious" from "Jewish"? "Jewish" is a word with many disparate meanings, unlike "Muslim" and "Christian". MeteorMaker (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

For the reasons outlined here, I support the renaming of the three sub-articles dealing with Religious Terrorism. The logic of doing that is to make it clear that the purpose of the articles is specifically to discuss religious terrorism carried out under the names of the different religions. In this article, the opening sentence would become something like, Jewish religious terrorism is religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretation of Judaism. I think that it would be a good idea to summarise somewhere near the top of the article what the distinguishing features of religious terrorism are. -- ZScarpia (talk) 14:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

For political violence practiced by Jews in other political contexts, see zionist political violence.

who added this - what does it mean?93.96.148.42 (talk) 15:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Lord only knows; it's bizarre. Not all Zionists are Jews; in fact, more non-Jews are Zionists than Jews. Anyway, the article is linked in the See also section. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"not all Zionists are Jews" but all the other terrorist acts performed by Jews in other political contexts are in the article Zionist political violence. We are dealing with a problem of disambiguation... Ceedjee (talk) 07:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Not all - anarchists, communists, etc are not covered. Zionist political violence covers most terrorism, or political violence, practised in the name of Judaism. I am happy to reword the link93.96.148.42 (talk) 00:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

No need, it's already included in the "See also" section at the bottom. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Zionist terrorism

This seems to pop up every few weeks by POV-pushing edit warriors. So , once again: read this entire talk page, there is a consensus of editors (Ceedjee, Canadian Monkey, Lapsed Pacifist, Jayjg, ליאור)whose view it is that this article be written along the lines of Christian terrorism or Islamic terrorism - that is , terrorism done with religious motivations, in the name of a religion, not ethnic violence practiced by people who belong to a certain faith. There is already another article for that - it's called Zionist political violence NoCal100 (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you should sit back and reflect over just why the question pops up every few weeks. Shall I restate why I and several others find it problematic, or is it OK if I just say "scroll up a bit and read a few of the sections above"? MeteorMaker (talk) 15:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: I see you have restored your preferred wording again, claiming it to be the "consensus" version despite all the evidence on this talk page. At least make an attempt to justify your edits with reliable sources. Is there one for the bald claim that "Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism committed by Jews who interpret Judaism to justify violence"? Else, why did you remove the fact tag? MeteorMaker (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

There is. I'm not sure why it was removed. I'll try and find out. Besides, it doesn't necessarily need a ref if it summarizes the article. -- Nudve (talk) 15:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see how a source that says "Militant messianic Zionists use religious claims to the historical land of Israel to justify acts of violence" can be used as a ref to the claim "Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism committed by Jews who interpret Judaism to justify violence". Perhaps if it said "Militant messianic Zionists only", but it clearly does not. The "religious" bit still seems entirely arbitrary. Would it be OK with you to either move the article to Religiously motivated Jewish terrorism or to remove the word "religious" plus the reference to Judaism from the definition? MeteorMaker (talk) 15:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Or, alternatively, change the title of this article to Jewish religious terrorism (it appearing to be a sub-article of the one on Religious Terrorism), as is being discussed above. -- ZScarpia (talk) 16:15, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I would support a rename if it helps clarify the distinction between religious and Zionist. -- Nudve (talk) 16:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I support it too. Note that the category Category:Zionist terrorism would still apply, since all groups currently mentioned in the article are staunchly Zionist. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it would not apply, but thanks for clarifying exactly 'why the question pops up every few weeks. " - it is, as you have shown, because of a persistent POV-push to label this as 'Zionist' terrorism NoCal100 (talk) 17:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

If that is the only reason you can find, I must say it appears that you skipped long parts of this talk page. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:30, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I read it all, and it is quite clear what is going on, and the motivations involved, as you have so helpfully described, above. 17:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Strange that you missed the main objection then, that the name is misleading because "Jewish" is a term with many meanings beside the religious one, unlike "Muslim" or "Christian". Out of curiosity, do you have a proper objection to my point that category Category:Zionist terrorism applies to this article (since all groups currently mentioned are staunchly Zionist), besides "No"? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

A consensus does not justify ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Could one of the 5 editors who are not trying to push a POV please provide proper sources and references to this article. I am concerned that my contributions, and their references, are consistently deleted.93.96.148.42 (talk) 23:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

[reply to MeteorMaker's 22:39, 24 February comment] Hello. In terms of terrorism, Muslim and Christian can just be convenient labels to identify what distinguishes the members of the group from those they are terrorising or from other surrounding people too. When people talk about Islamic/Muslim or Christian terrorism, they're not necessarily referring to religious terrorism (a not particularly widespread or well-developed concept), which is why I would suggest that those articles are renamed as well. If the activities of groups fulfil the definitions of Zionist political violence and Jewish religious terrorism, my suggestion would be that either a brief description of them is given in both the relevant articles, or that the current article is deleted and Jewish religious terrorism is covered in a separate section of the Zionist political violence article. Since having a Zionist ideological base is not a necessary part of Jewish religious terrorism, (and it would be unnecessarily antagonistic) my opinion is that this article should not be included in the Zionist Terrorism category. -- ZScarpia (talk) 00:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Zionist political violence currently stops at 1948. The groups currently covered here have Zionist and Judaic Religious beliefs. Given that nobody seems able to provide an external definition of "Jewish Terrorism", as religious, I would suggest that this article merges with Zionist Political Violence. The use of "Jewish Terrorism" to characterise the actions of extremist Zionist settlers by Israeli politicians supports their inclusion here, or there should the articles be merged.93.96.148.42 (talk) 00:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If there's no definition of "Jewish terrorism", then the entire article should be deleted as WP:NOR. Alternatively, this article could parallel, say, the division of Islamic terrorism and Palestinian political violence. By the way, the Islamic terrorism article has no source for the claim that it is "religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretations of Islam." You need to go over there and fix that, since that was the model for this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

nobody seems able to provide an external definition of "Jewish Terrorism", as religious ... so rename the article to Jewish religious terrorism to make it clear that its contents are about religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretation of Judaism. -- ZScarpia (talk) 04:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Is there anyone who is actually opposed to this proposed renaming?

Why delete the content, when it describes political violence by Zionists, which should be incorporated in Zionist political violence93.96.148.42 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added on 03:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC).

If a member of Fatah performs a terrorist act, and is a Muslim, is it an act of Muslim terrorism? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:59, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is Jewish terrorism:)93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

That's quite clear. Do you think it is an act of Muslim terrorism? NoCal100 (talk) 04:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

In the real world, it would probably be described as Arab terrorism. As Fatah has Christian and Muslim members, people wouldn't use a religious label to identify it. The word Arab would be used because the conflict that Fatah is involved in is perceived as one between Arabs and Jews (even though there are Jewish Arabs - or Arab Jews - the word Arab being a cultural identification). If an act of terrorism was carried out by a group of Muslims, or an individual Muslim acting on his own, against non-Muslims, many people would refer to it as Muslim terrorism. -- ZScarpia (talk) 09:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Bad Copying

Jayjg please fix the other article that is broken, and let me try to fix this one. Better fix one, than have both broken! If this article is to be deleted, the content should be included within Zionist political violence, since it refers to political violence by zionists. Here are some sources that define Jewish terrorism- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1043413.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3128224/Jewish-terrorism-threatens-Israel.html http://hnn.us/articles/832.html http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/israel-born-out-of-jewish-terrorism-british-parliamentarian_100143359.html http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2006/20060826_Muslim_terrorism_Jewish_Christian.htm93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This article isn't broken, so it doesn't need "fixing". As far as I can tell, none of those sources actually define "Jewish terrorism"; rather, they just use the phrase. Could you provide any actual "definitions" they use? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think Jayjg made a wise recommendation - it will give you a chance to see what it is like on the other side, and hopefully improve this article, too, as it was modeled after that one. This article does not refers to political violence by Zionists (though you and other editors insist that it should) - that article is Zionist political violence. This article is about religiously motivated acts of violence. NoCal100 (talk) 03:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Have looked at islamic terrorism - awful, should be renamed or deleted. No justification for continued existence of this non-article. The articles cited do not use "Jewish Terrorism" to describe religiously motivated terrorism, please find some that do, which are not deleted by a bot, otherwise this article is Original research.93.96.148.42 (talk) 03:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If you believe this article is original research, please take it to AfD. NoCal100 (talk) 04:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If you don't, please use another argument than Proof by assertion.93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I haven't made any argument, either for or against deletion. I simply let you know that this is not the place to suggest deletions of articles - AfD is. Go ahead and nominate it , and I will support you. NoCal100 (talk) 04:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Move

I tried to move the page to Jewish religious terrorism because 6 out of 7 editors agree to proceed while the 7th editor requires a definition of the current title, that cannot be provided. I failed because the article Jewish religious terrorism already exists and redirects here... I don't know how to deal this technically.
If somebody could proceed to the move, we could then let the opportunity to any editor to create and develop another article related to other kinds of Jewish terrorism not linked to Judaism or to Zionist political violence.
They would certainly have to pass the AfD debate that may follow their creation but at least, we would have a debate on the issue. Ceedjee (talk) 18:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello. Hopefully, the following will help. From Wikipedia:Redirect:

Listing is not necessary if you just want to replace a redirect with an article, or change where it points: see these instructions for help doing this. If you want to swap a redirect and an article, but are not able to move the article to the location of the redirect please use Wikipedia:Requested moves to request help from an admin in doing that.

-- ZScarpia (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that we should avoid a proliferation of articles and just try to work with the current Zionist political violence one. I would, though, like to propose a name change for it. The titles used so far, Zionist Terrorism and Zionist Political Violence, both have problems associated with them. There are valid concerns about the pejorative connotations of the word terrorism. But, there is a problem with trying to overcome that by substituting the phrase Political Violence for the word Terrorism. Political violence is defined as anything from regular warfare to something as minor as breaking windows or stone-throwing. Clearly, the phrase isn't an effective substitute if the article's focus is going to remain on the types of activity that it originally did. Another point is whether the article should cover what may be termed non-Zionist forms of "Jewish terrorism", or just what may be termed Zionist "terrorism". The best suggestions I can come up with are ones along the following lines:

• Zionist underground groups; Jewish underground groups
• Zionist underground group activity; Jewish underground group activity

-- ZScarpia (talk) 20:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)