Talk:Salting the earth

Scorched or burned

Isn't it "scorched earth" rather than "burned earth"? --Brion

Heh. agreed. Just fixed. mimirzero

Carthage

Pasting discussion from Talk:Carthage I think it could be useful. Ericd 19:55, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Is the story about salting the land around Carthage true? I have also read that is more of a legend than truth...they actually just threw a handful of salt on the ground to symbolize that no one would be allowed to live there after it was destroyed. (Now I'll have to see if I can find where I read that...) Adam Bishop 00:35, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have no reference about it but it's not impossible after all lake Tunis is a salt lake and it's not that far. Ericd 10:19, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The case, for me, is made not so much on the impossibility of the act (the argument that "the Romans wouldn't do it because salt was precious"), but on the fact that no ancient source for the salting has ever been found. A very strong case has been made that the entire incident can be traced back to a history text from the late 19th century, and has been propagated from there ever since. The fact that a new city was established in essentially the exact same location only a little while later (and then designated the capital of Roman Africa) also suggests that the land was not permanently ruined. :Justin Bacon 16:53, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have no special skills in history. If there is no source before the 19th is probably mythical. For what I know about the geography the region I think is that the economic argument as presented on that page [[1]] is a wrong view. The only valid question to see if that was possible is how many people, how many chariots and how many time to carry free salt from lake Tunis? You know there is an article Salting the earth maybe we could incorporate this debate in? Ericd 06:23, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Salting just the pomerium

Part of the Roman ritual for founding a city was to plough a furrow, the pomerium, around the city limits. There were some things one could and couldn't do within this city limit, e.g., no burials within, only outside. The city gods were only responsible to bless up to this line, etc. Think of it as an ancient zoning ordinance. The pomerium would have to be renewed and the city purified every five years. This is called lustration.

There was a variant of the lustral ceremony for revoking a city's status and part of the ritual was to plough salt into the pomerium. Sewing salt wasn't to sterilize the land, it was to destroy the city and its connection to its tutelary deities. I imagine this is what the Romans had in mind in Carthage. And when they refounded the city a few years later, no doubt they ploughed an inaugural furrow for the occasion. --Fulminouscherub 02:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

This might be a valid point, except for the obvious point that the sources don't mention the Romans doing this. They don't mention salt at all. The timeline proposed for the salting story by Ridley, Stevens, Visona, and Warmington, among others, seems a good deal more likely.

Why are the salts that poured in the streets after a snow doesn't kill plant life?

Why are the salts that poured in the streets after a snow doesn't kill plant life?

Cause there's asphalt there. Also, weeds are pretty hardy.

It does, less salt is used for example, on bridges over shallow waterways, to prevent plant damage 76.255.10.142 (talk) 19:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Portugal

Stone memorial of the Aveiro's shame

One point is unclear. Does the monument contain English text, or is the text presented a translation? The sentence just says, in parentheses, that it is in English. Maybe I'm just missing the obvious. I assume it's a translation just from common sense, but it's a little unclear. 08:30, 22 May 2006 65.24.138.72

It's a translation. I translated it. The original can be seen in Duke of Aveiro, and it says: Aqui foram arrasadas e salgadas as casas de José Mascarenhas, exautorado das honras de Duque de Aveiro e outras condemnado por sentença proferida na Suprema Juncta de Inconfidencia em 12 de Janeiro de 1759. Justiçado como um dos chefes do barbaro e execrando desacato que na noite de 3 de Septembro de 1758 se havia commetido contra a real e sagrada pessoa de D.José I. Neste terreno infame se não poderá edificar em tempo algum. The Ogre 14:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Salting to expel evil

Portuguese tradition of slating the Earth, is mainly in a view to expel evil and not to destroy plantation per se. It was very common to do so in houses suspected to be haunted. Psyllis 16:19, 21 Septmeber 2006 (CET)

That is fascinating, I wonder if this belief derives from 2 Kings 2:21 ? (While looking this up I found a bonafide reference in Judges to sowing a rebellious city with salt, that I just now added to the article!) ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's interesting. But, not doubting you, what are your sources? The Ogre 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Book of Judges 9:45. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I guess you were talking to Psyllis... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep! The Ogre 14:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Tiradentes' prosecution in Brazil

The article text states that "the last known event of this sort was the destruction of the Duke of Aveiro's palace in Lisbon in 1759." It may have been so in Portugal itself, but in Brazil - then a Portuguese colony - part of the punishment imposed on Tiradentes, considered the leader of the failed seditious movement called the Inconfidência Mineira in 1789, consisted of salting the earth where his house had stood.

This was ordered in a 1792 document called the Autos da Devassa (very loosely translated, "Investigation Report," though it was actually the final sentence of the rebels' trial), and it is not an obscure scholarly subject: all Brazilian children learn that at school in their History classes.

It is not clear whether the salting was actually carried out (maybe not, because at that time salt was very scarce and expensive in the far-inland mountainous area of Minas Gerais, where the events took place), but this shows that the practice of salting the earth of convicted traitors' property was at least considered current in the Portuguese empire three decades after the Duke of Aveiro's former palace property was salted.

As a quick off-topic humorous side note (OK, maybe black humor...), in the curious language of the time, the Autos da Devassa also sentenced Tiradentes to "die of a natural death by hanging" (que morra de morte natural na forca) - which of course makes Brazilian schoolchildren burst into laughter when hearing that... :-)

--UrsoBR (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is funny, but to order a sentence of "natural death by hanging" actually makes sense; it means to hang a person and let her die slowly. That is, the person would be suspended by the neck at shallow height and left to suffocate gradually, instead of the more "humane" and common method of hanging, which breaks the neck after a short free fall into the gallows, bringing about a quick demise. Therefore, a sentence of "natural death by hanging" is a particularly severe and cruel punishment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.64.199 (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Changed the text under the picture (Why is the garaffiti so important?) but would like to request a new picture for this article, perferably a picture of this activity actually being carried out, such as an anincet scroll, carving, or woodcut. -- Raveled

Effectiveness

If the salt refered to common salt, NaCl, then I do not think salting the soil would be capable of preventing plant growth for long. Salt is after all highly soluble and needed in relatively high concentrations to damage plants; precipitation will rapidly wash it away. A few years ago a large quantity (maybe 50 kg) of salt intended for keeping roads free of snow was dumped near our house on a grassy verge near a hedge. The vegetation nearby rapidly wilted and died, but within a year had regrown. In a drier climate no doubt the salt would take longer to leach away, but I find it hard to believe that lands in the Soviet Union could have been salted no earlier than summer 1941 and still be unusable in 1944. It is not inconceivable that lands may have been salted out of desperation where salt happened to be available, but I fail to see it being a practical strategy in general because of the amount of salt that would be needed. Booshank 16:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly what I think... how the heck would mere salt prevent plant growth for a long period of time? --Luigifan 22:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Plus, salt was one of the most valuable goods at that time, more expensive than silver. From that point of view, especially since silver is a lot more toxic than salt and doesn't wash out, "silvering" the land would make much more sense. Very likely salt was used by medieval writers/translators as a more dramatic periphrasis, due to its alleged magical abilities.

Thanks for your original speculation, but we cannot use it on wikipedia articles. We can only use speculations contained in reliable sources. For example, there are sources saying the practice was to dump loads of sea-water on arable land, killing all vegetation as it evaporated, leaving only salt behind. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Roman predecessors, the Assyrians??

Someone care to explain how the Assyrians are the predecessors to Rome? Their sphere of influence never extended to Italy... look at the web page for Assyrian. Anyone have a problem if I reword it to just say that it was a practice used by the Assyrians? Vargob 17:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I wrote that, because as powerful Empire the Assyrians were certainly predecessors of the Romans, as well as in the strictly chronological sense, without having had to cover the same geographic ground. The meaning of the word predecessor usually refers to time, not space. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I did a double-take when I saw "predecessors" as well. I move the Assyrian section up in the article because the first example given shouldn't be one that is now thought to be fabricated. Plus, they seem to have the earliest example of the practice (1290 BC). Tocharianne 14:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Josephus

Didn't Josephus mention the Romans salting the area around Jerusalen when it was sacked? Banaticus 22:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"poured into the land"

...Shouldn't it be "poured onto the land"? --Scyrma 19:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Salt dissipation

How long would it take for the land to be viable again? I don't recall the exact sources, but I think I heard somewhere that some places that were salted in wars 5,000 years ago are still unviable. Not all, I'll grant it's possible for the salt to be washed away under the right conditions, but...not everywhere might have those conditions.

In my experience, admittedly in a humid climate with about 8-900mm of rain per annum in England, salt is washed out of the soil fairly rapidly. Where road salt has been dumped in heaps next to the road vegetation has grown again within a year.

In a drier climate it would take longer, but I cannot imagine it would take that long. Booshank 21:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Do Note that they don't just sprinkle salt, they plow it in. I would like to know the right amount of time, but then again 5000 years is impossible because northern Italy hasn't any scars from Carthage.

This whole idea is absurd. According to Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2698/did-ancient-conquerors-punish-their-enemies-by-sowing-captured-fields-with-salt) it would require about 31 tons of salt to render an acre unusable. Given this estimate, it would require about 200,000 tons to render a ten square mile area (6400 acres) unusable. According to the wikipedia article on salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt) the entire annual world production of salt is 200 million tons/year. That means that in order to spoil an area of ten square miles, you'd need .1% of the entire salt production for an entire year! Can you spoil an acre of farmland? Yes. Could you realistically spoil even a small farm? No way.

New Source on Carthage?

For the benefit of those of us who do not have immediate access to your source, would you please share exactly what you have that so conclusively demonstrates the story of Rome salting Carthage was unheard of until the 20th Century??? I bet I even have some 19th century history books in my collection right now where I could find it mentioned. The previous version of the article said the story first appears in the Middle Ages, so it just seems like a dramatic shift to suddenly proclaim that the case is closed on the strength of one new author whose words aren't quoted. What exactly does this source say that you found so convincing? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Salting the sidewalk

Would it be okay to meantion this practice since people do it to prevent snow from piling up on the ground? VoltronForce 09:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Probably not, since the purposes of the two practices are completely different and unrelated to each other. Tocharianne 15:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Salting the Pretzel then?

This thread is making me hungry. Sarsaparilla (talk) 03:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

It has been proposed the stub Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty be merged into this article. The expected consequence is that this ticking salted bomb article will be disarmed. The rationale for this merge is informed by Scorched earth#In business and Poison pill.

History

This article was contrived in response to a dispute at Talk:Yuan Dynasty. Whether this was motivated by strategic/political or strategic/operational reasons is unclear, but the creator's "User contributions" reveal that this article serves NO purpose or function other than as a polemical battleground.

Salting the earth

The inescapable fact-of-the-matter is that real-world disputes over 21st-century borders or oils and mineral rights have poisoned the genesis of this battlefield and everything which followed. The initial impetus for this article was "salting the earth" in an article about 7th-8th centuries Central Asia in order to undercut a dispute in an article about China in the 12th-13th centuries; but the various talk page threads across an array of articles confirms that the long-term toxic warriors are intending to affect current affairs by re-writing history in Wikipedia articles.

This article is like Salting the earth in the 7th century in order to achieve 21st century goals and objectives. It is impossible to defend any underlying presumption that this poisoned article can have any topic divorced from unending subterfuge and proxy combat.

The merge with Salting the earth is a non-standard, non-AfD-process strategy. It was inspired by the {{synthesis}} tag. Such a proposal has one major advantage over the proposed merge with Tang Dynasty -- it incorporates a measure of sober reality into what is demonstrably proven to be a Sisyphean folly.

Reiterating what I said at Talk:Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty#Map-above: " ... a flawed map is worse than no map at all." The flaws in this toxic article make it worse than no article at all.

Indefensible in the face of persistent IP vandalism

The wrongly-created Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty is indefensible from anonymous IP vandalism. Defensive semi-protection from anonymous IP onslaught was sought and denied. Serial provocations are overwhelming; and they cannot be mitigated with reasoned engagement nor with time-wasting resort to futile dispute resolution procedures.

• See Talk:Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty#Merge proposal.

Merging the toxic article into this one removes it as a target for obsessive mischief.

It is impossible for this article or any article to thrive outside a venue in which WP:V has meaning and substance; and no other option but abandonment seems feasible at this point. --Tenmei (talk) 18:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)