Talk:Nizami Ganjavi

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Nizami's father?

Ok, the logic people use to classify him as Persian is utter nonsense. Overall, it seems that there are a lot of Persians here with too much time in their hands and more access to internet, so they are winning the contest, which is another reason why Wikipedia has a serious flaw: people with more time at hand get to edit this stuff more often. ok, why is the Persian-Nizami logic faulty? Here is why?

1) They say: He wrote in Persian. Well, if an author in Poland writes in English to reach wider audience and uses the English tricks of literature, are you going to call him English or American or Polish?

2) They say: Just because he lived in Azerbaijan, it does not mean he is Azeri. Well, true. But although it is not a conclusive reason, it nonetheless adds some weight to the Azeri origins scenario. After all, he definitely was not living in Pesia. A big minus for the Persian-Nizami scenario. And if this fact carries little weight, then, my friends, we can attribute no nationality to any historical figure, especially in Europe. Who is there to conduct a DNA test to see if Dante was an Italian, or a Persian living in Italy?

3) They say: his mother was a Kurd. And? How does this imply that he was Persian?! There are a lot of Kurds in Azerbaijan.

4) They say: his father's nationality was not know. Ok, so why not then take the more conservative assumption that he was an Azeri? After all, they lived in Azerbaijan, right? Otherwise, what the heck was Nizami doing being born in Azerbaijan, if his mother was a Kurd and his father some other nationality. Again, if the evidence lacks, then go with the more likely scenario (under Ockham's famous philosophical razor): his father was probably an ethnic Turk. Otherwise, the implication is that this famous Perisan poet somehow was translplanted from hundreds of miles away, right from within the depths of Persia, right into a middle of nowhere in a place called Gandja.

5) They say: many historical sources call him a Persian poet. Listen, back then Azerbaijan was part of the Persian empire, just as later PErsia was part of the Arab empire (and no one calling the real PErsian poets Arab poets therefore). So of course, some English scholar studying Nizami at the time will call him Persian. He did not have internet, or vast libraries. But we should know better, and not stick with old erros. At the same time, literature is not all: he is Persian.

Anyways... I dont have much more time to dedicate to this topic any more (nor did I have time to spell-check... sorry). I am sure the Persian guys will overwhelm the debate and do it their way ... All the worse for Wikipedia as an objective source of neutral information.

Iksus2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iksus2009 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure you think it is utter nonsense, but that is your opinion which is not shared by scholars. Nor by Encyclopedias such as Encyclopedia of Islam, Britannica, Iranica and etc. written by scientists and not nationalistic users. Ganja at the time was mainly Persian speaking city and the cities name is Persian much like the name Azerbaijan(which applied to below the Aras), Baku, Sherwan, Darband, Beylekan, Barda' and majority of old topoynms. Actually you won't find one toponym from the area that is Turkic during the time of Nezami. So obviously if the place was Turkic, then we would not expect the overwhelming majority of toponyms to be Persian right? Also we would expect a poet to write about Dede Qorqud and Turkic/Oghuz folklores and not Sassanid and Persian/Iranian folklore right? And we would expect ordinary non-court non-scholar everyday people to use Turkic right? But more than 50-100 poets from Nezami's era most of them everyday ordinary people, some even women with lack of education have written in Persian[1] and yet there is not a single verse of Turkic from the time of Nezami fron any writer, author and etc.. There is clear evidence he was not Turkic as he uses the term for his son that refers to a person who is half Turkic (in this case his first wife was Kypchak Turkic who was sent as a gift to him). Actual Azerbaijan-Turkic identity was formed later than Nezami's time. Just like Homer does not become a Turk een though he came from modern Anatolia. Even the area of Ganja was not generally called Azerbaijan back then but Arran. Azerbaijan was below the Aras river and it is of course a Persian name, which at the time the peopel spoke Iranian languages (Old azari language). Also if one goes by fatherline (which in the case of Nezami we just know his fatherline precedes the coming of Seljuqs and if we intrepret verses then he calls himself Dehqan Parsizad (Persian Dehqan)..), then Nasimi, Shahriyar are Arabs (because they are Seyyeds!) and Shah Esmail I is a Kurdish poet. So what is the standard? Cultural identity. I use culture. So the origin of his father whom he was orphaned from and did not know is irrelavant (he was raised by his Kurdish uncle) to culture identity. But one goes by culture specially 800 year ago. Final issue is that it is Persian speakers that read him and understand him. He uses Ferdowsi as his source for three of his epics and not say Oghuz epics. Also note the only source that says in English his father might have been Turkic (since ethnonym or identity Azeri-Turkic did not exist during his time), has just changed her mind and says his father was probabily Iranian. The article though allows for differing opinions [2] within that one sentence in order to minimize (one cannot completely avoid it obviously due to USSR nation building) conflicts. That is why even a scholar that took her word back (see below) is listed. Note there is more than sufficient sources to show the area was in general Iranic(Persian and others) at the time. ( Дьяконов, Игорь Михайлович. Книга воспоминаний. Издательство "Европейский дом", Санкт-Петербург, 1995., 1995. - ISBN 5-85733-042-4. cтр. 730-731 Igor Diakonov. The book of memoirs: ( Nizami) was not Azeri but Persian (Iranian) poet, and though he lived in presently Azerbaijani city of Ganja, which, like many cities in the region, had Iranian population in Middle Ages. (russian text: (Низами) был не азербайджанский, а персидский (иранский) поэт, хотя жил он в ныне азербайджанском городе Гяндже, которая, как и большинство здешних городов, имела в Средние века иранское население).).(http://www.kulichki.com/~gumilev/HE2/he2103.htm История Востока. В 6 т. Т. 2. Восток в средние века.]М., «Восточная литература», 2002. ISBN: 5-02-017711-3 (History of the East. In 6 volumes. Volume 2. Moscow, publishing house of the Russian Academy of sciences «East literature»): The multi-ethnic population of Albania left-bank at this time is increasingly moving to the Persian language. Mainly this applies to cities of Aran and Shirwan, as begin from 9-10 centuries named two main areas in the territory of Azerbaijan. With regard to the rural population, it would seem, mostly retained for a long time, their old languages, related to modern Daghestanian family, especially Lezgin. (russian text: Пестрое в этническом плане население левобережнoй Албании в это время все больше переходит на персидский язык. Главным образом это относится к городам Арана и Ширвана, как стали в IX-Х вв. именоваться два главные области на территории Азербайджана. Что касается сельского населения, то оно, по-видимому, в основном сохраняло еще долгое время свои старые языки, родственные современным дагестанским, прежде всего лезгинскому.)(Al-Mas’udi the Arab Historian States from 9th/10th century:“The Persians are a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azarbaijan up to Armenia and Arran, and Bayleqan and Darband, and Ray and Tabaristan and Masqat and Shabaran and Jorjan and Abarshahr, and that is Nishabur, and Herat and Marv and other places in land of Khorasan, and Sejistan and Kerman and Fars and Ahvaz...All these lands were once one kingdom with one sovereign and one language...although the language differed slightly. The language, however, is one, in that its letters are written the same way and used the same way in composition. There are, then, different languages such as Pahlavi, Dari, Azari, as well as other Persian languages.”Source: Al Mas’udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, pp. 77-8.)(Estakhri of 10th century also states in his : “In Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic, except for the area around the city of Dabil: they speak Armenian around that city, and in the country of Barda people speak Arranian.” Original Arabic:و لسان اذربيجان و ارمينيه و الران الفارسيه و العربيه غير ان اھل دبيل و حواليھا یتکلمون بالارمنيه، و نواحی بردعه لسانھم ارانيه(Estakhari, Abu Eshaq Ebrahim. Masalek va Mamalek. Bonyad Moqufat Dr. Afshar, Tehran, 1371 (1992-1993))). So the actual conservative assumption is by a man's culture. Not only the language he used was Persian but the cultural content of his works are Persian and relies on Persian folklore, Ferdowsi and etc. But again the issue of cultural identity is different than ethnicity. Ethnically, he would be Iranic (at least agreed his mother was a Kurd, he was raised by his Kurdish uncle and virtuall all evidence point to a Iranic fatherline). But just like one does not call Ismail I a Kurdish poet, or call someone like Nasimi or Shahriyar (a Seyyed) an Arab poet, one can have different cultural identity than origin. Cultural identity of the poet is Persian and he does not have anything in Turkic and his stories are based on Persian/Iranic folklore. But ethnic origin of his father whom he was orphaned from is possibly disputed (the reason possibly is that the only source that does not say Iranic here actually changed her mind per the below message), but I have allowed room for differing opinion because ultimately it is the cultural heritage that distinguishes the civilization (in this case Iranian and not Turkic) the pet belongs too. Had he written even one verse of Turkic one could have at least a weak argument for a Turkic heritage as well. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

a better picture for infobox

there is another picture in the wikimedia that i think is more suitable for infobox.

File:Nizomi Ganjavi.jpg

. Bbadree (talk) 21:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you just remove the inscription from the picture? The picture itself is good. Tājik (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the portrait got changed already. Possibly someone should remove the Cyrilic/Latin inscription. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 16:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Jewish origin? (!!!!!!!)

Is the source really serious? --Wayiran (talk) 15:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is a good question. I would not worry about attempts to de-Iranianize Nezami since all of his works are in Persian, his mother was Kurdish and he was raised by his Kurdish uncle. He was orphaned from his father early and did not even remember him according to his own words. I have opinions of 5 serious and scholars of Persian languages also on the funny USSR/nationalist misinterpretation of introduction of Lili o Majnoon as well. So if this article is disturbed, I will seek mediation and based on the overwhelming sources that call him a Persian poet, I would put that in the first line(Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, Britannica and any serious scholar) [3][4]. Note Pushkin was partially Ethiopian (through his father) but is considered a Russian poet nevertheless and no one challenges this position. But in the case of Nezami is even further different, since there was no nation states back then (unlike Russia of Pushkin), urban populations of Arran/Sherwan were Iranian and so one can only classify his identity based on his work and background (which in both cases are Iranic) only and all other associations are romantic nationalism. And culture takes supremacy as we move away centuries back, since culture (which poetry is tied to the language and the works of Nezami are simply the hardest to translate due to their symbolism which is tied with the culture and language) is the key. So any serious scholar will have to learn the language of Nezami and can do research based on sources provided and will not reach politicized conclusions in the long term. Some terms associated with Nezami in the 20th century by USSR did not simply exist at the time of Nezami, so eventually (say 100 years+ or so), untruth will disappear.

However, you raise an interesting question. I had a chance to e-mail the person (Dr. van Ruymbeke) who made this claim and this was the response I got (which can be verified by contacting her as well or I can send you the e-mail). Here was the response(note emphasis of bold is mine):

Thank you for your email and your query on Nezami. I am grateful to you for writing to me for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions. As you will notice from my book, I am absolutely NOT taking position on Nezami's origins, I am only mentioning - using the conditional - opinions found in previous scholarly works, one of which (but this is so far away I unfortunately cannot remember who the author might have been) must have mentioned the possibility that Nezami came from a Jewish background. If I remember correctly, no actual proof for this was given, except for his first name Ilyas son of Yusuf. The point I was making was that we have no biographical details on Nezami's origin, family background and education and thus need to look at his verses to understand who he was. I have not researched his background and all I can say is that no, there are no known works in Hebrew written by him, nor any traces of ties to a Jewish community, nor any mention by him that I know of that he was of Jewish origin. As to the opinions you are quoting, I would like to remark that this is a dangerous and pointless debate, as we have no biographical details about this or about most other medieval authors who wrote in persian. There was no definition of political nationalities in the large Saljuq Turkish Muslim empire in which Nezami was living. Nationalities, as Soviet and present-day Azarbaijan or Iran refer to, is not a concept that is relevant for those times. People who call Nezami a Persian poet are perfectly right, as the language in which he chose to express himself was Persian, whatever his family background might have been, and it was most probably Iranian. The area and town in which he lived has become Azerbaijan nowadays, so Azerbaijan is perfectly correct in claiming him as a local man - this might also be correct for the Soviet Union at one time. In my eyes, this does not rob Persian culture from one of its greatest man either.

Anyhow, the reason I included was not to say it is the correct opinion. As you see even the author of that quote now has a different opinion (and I did send her my own article) and she was not saying anything certain. But I just included variety of opinions (excluding USSR era and Iranian and Turkish (Turkey, Azerbaijan) sources), since it is now impossible to simply they exist outside of Wikipedia and also I gave my reasoning above after name of a certain place. To be fair, in the external link also I gave varying opinions. Basically it is very hard to find 100% the full background (what about Grandparents and parents of Grandparents and etc.) of most peoples who lived 800 years ago, so it is culture that comes first, which in this case was Persian (not just language but the themes and symbolism and sources(Shahnameh) of stories besides the fact that a poet is great due to the way he uses the language). Sometimes a group leaves genealogies like Safavids did, which makes it easy and ends all dispute. Other times though, they do not and just name partial (although I believe the evidences I cited in my article is sufficient). Then there is the issue of culture, language and etc. So without making the article complicated, I gave varying opinions which meet simple WP:verifiability and in this case neutrality (being Western or critical post USSR - Russian oriental sources).

I hope that clarifies why I included it. It is not correct, but I am just putting variety of opinion since thats how it works with some of these articles (for another example: Safavids).--Nepaheshgar (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Nezami ye Ganjavi

The title of the article should be moved to the full name of the person that is Nezami ye Ganjavi or Nezami Ganjavi. Baku87 (talk) 22:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually his full name is Jamal al-din Abu Muhammad Ilyas. The Abu Muhammad is actually a title as well, so it is Jamal al-Din Ilyas. Ganjavi is his designation because he lived most if not all of his life in Ganja. I don't have a problem with Nezami Ganjavi, since it is indeed popular and it is also in Persian Wikipedia too, and there are a lot of other people with the name Nezami which can lead to confusion. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Someone had removed category Persian poet and I addressed them here in long essay: [5]. I urge that person to read it. But to make it short, please note google books overwhelmingly [6], Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam, Encyclopedia Iranica and etc. We have already mentioned Nezami's fatherline is disputed so there is no ambiguity, and Persian poet is cultural/linguistic phenomenon and furthermore note the message of the scholar Christian van Ruymbeke above who wrote:"People who call Nezami a Persian poet are perfectly right, as the language in which he chose to express himself was Persian, whatever his family background might have been, and it was most probably Iranian.". So he was at least half Iranic and most likely hundred percent. But Persian poet is simply scholarly convention. Pushkin being a Russian poet or Shah Ismail despite contested background (which was Kurdish according to scholars who actually research the Safavids) is an Azerbaijani-Turkic poet. No one for example here would remove Azerbaijani-Turkic poet from Shah Esmail I due to his Kurdish background. Or Nasimi was a Seyyed so he would be an Arab poet (if it was about background) but wikipedia has it differently. In the case of Nezami, he had Iranic background, but had he wrote in Arabic, then Persian poet would not be there. So don't confuse background with cultura/language contribution. I gave a longer response here on why other categories are not appropiate[7] and further removal of this category will lead to mediation (and possibly more) and I can easily put Persian poet in the first section based on the overwhelming amount of sources, which overwhelms any other thing like this[8](compare to this [9]). --Nepaheshgar (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Note Persian name comes first because that is the language his name is recorded in from his own time. There was no Turkic-Azeri language/ethnicity/identity during the time of Nezami Ganjavi [10] (and note I mean this in a scientific sense just like there was no American before say 16th century or no Mexican before the Spanish invasion and no Morrocan Arab before Islam, no Armenian identity during the time of Urartu and etc. and no modern Persian language (it was Middle Persian) say 2000 years ago and etc.).

Turkic culture which was the culture of Oghuz tribesmen who lived nomadic lifestyles and had not yet formed an urban culture in that region existed. But sedentary Turkic-Azeri culture, language and ethnicity (with thick layer of Iranian influence) had not formed yet and the language and latin script for it obviously did not exist, so it is actually anachronism to have his name in that script and language. It is not scientific. But I have no problem with it because it is no big deal and he is popular and widely appreciated in your country. But Persian language existed then and Nezami wrote his name in that language: کای جادوی سخن نظامی and it is the only language he wrote his own name in and the only language from his own time that his name is recorded in from that region. گر شد پدرم به نسبت جد - یوسف بن زکی مؤید

So his name is written in Persian like all of his works from his own time and in general it was Persian language and culture and Iranic ethnicity that was prevalent at the time(again just history and nothing more). Because from more than 50-100+ poets of Sherwan/Arran, from simple folks (using everyday idiom) to court poets, all have used Persian [11] and there is not a single Turkic verse nor any Turkic text from the 12th century from Arran/Sherwan by any writer. Note Nozhat al-Majales[12] shows the language and culture of simple everyday people was Persian in urban centers and cultural centers [13] and it was not just a language of the elite. All the rulers at the time were also Persianized like the Seljuqs, Eldiguzids, Shirwanshahs, Ahmadilis and etc. That is because they had to accept the prevalent culture of the people at the time. Note: "Nozhat al-mājales is thus a mirror of the social conditions at the time, reflecting the full spread of Persian language and the culture of Iran throughout that region, clearly evidenced by the common use of spoken idioms in poems as well as the professions of the some of the poets (see below). The influence of the northwestern Pahlavi language, for example, which had been the spoken dialect of the region, is clearly observed in the poems contained in this anthology. "[14]. Else there should be at least one writer relative to more than 50-100 from Sherwan/Arran that wrote even a single line in Turkic, since virtually most of the poets of Nozhat al-Majales had nothing to do with court and wrote freely. So let us not push nationalistic ideas here because if this was an accurate and non-nationalistic Encyclopedia, then only Persian name would be in the intro, but others names are there not to cause conflicts. Obviously Persian comes first as that is the only language the name is written in during his own time in that script and he wrote his name in that language and exact script 800+ years ago. Kurdish in one form might have existed but not in that script, but someone inserted Kurdish and it is fine.

Azerbaijani-Turkic did not exist either as a ethnicity or culture and was proto-Oghuz and did not have a script yet, specially Latin (just like say there was no American 500 years ago or no Mexican before the Spanish invasion or no Modern Persian language 2000 years (it was Middle/Old Persian) and no Morrocan Arabs before Islam (population was all Bebbers) and etc. It doesn't matter in the long scheme of things, some groups are formed later than others and none is better). So we allow such anachronism because this is Encyclopedia where unfortunately nationalism is prevalent. But the issue is no big deal, since it is too much of a waste of time to bring such a minor issue to admins or etc. However removal of Persian name or putting it in the end can bring it to the admins attention and then I will have to mention the same historic stuff I just did. I have no problem with putting his name in any language(German or Russian or Arabic or Azeri Turkic or whatever), but obviously he wrote his name in Persian only like all his work which are in Persian and so how he wrote his own name in the language which he calls (Dorr-i Dari) "Persian pearl" goes first. Note the reason I am sensitive to medieval history is because I am interested in it. The article is fairly generous since Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam, etc. put Persian poet on the first line. I have put external links where differing opinion of another former editor is present and also put the anachronistic latin (at the time non-existent) Azerbaijani-Turkic language). Also to minimize conflict here, I noted his father's origin (whom he was orphaned from) is disputed although my only source in English for Turkic now believes probably Iranian [15] and I can remove it if I wish based on this. Also for example Nasimi/Shahriyar are not Arab poets because of their fhaterline origin which is Seyyed or Shah Esmail I is not a Kurdish poet. All these are legitimately Azeri-Turkic poets and personalities due to their culture. So cultural heritage and origin are not necessarily the same (although they are mostly and given that 99% of Kurds would marry a Kurd, probably Nezami's dad was a Iranic Kurd although other Iranics have been mentioned and his dad's ancestry goes back before the Seljuq took over the area and he came from an urban background). Anyhow, on this poet, one looks at cultural contribution, but if it is about origin we know his mother was Iranic, his uncle who raised him was Iranic and his father was with the utmost certaintty Iranic (based on the sources provided and also population of the time and etc, but even if this point is disputed, the Persian literature/heritage is not disputed just like one does not dispute Azeri-Turkic heritage of the founder of Safavids despite his ancestry going to an Iranic Kurd). But again as I said I have been open with the issue and have not taken a point with having various languages in the intro, as long as the obvious one comes first. Else I would follow Britannica, Iranica, Encyclopedia of Islam on the lead and get rid of anachronism, not yet formed scripts/languages of his time and source where author has changed opinion and etc. Thanks for the understanding and my firmness on the issue should not be taken personally as I have nothing against any groups of people, but it is a matter of scholarly/history principle. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

his heritage

The lead states "His heritage is widely appreciated and shared by Republic of Azerbaijan, Afghanestan,..." I would like to understand what this means? Otherwise I would like to remove "Azarbaijan". As far as Nezami the poet is concerned he had no idea what turkic-language is. This is well explained in the article. Now does the sentence I am criticising try to say "the translation of Ganjavi's poetry"? If so this must be stated explicitly. Because everyone knows that poetry is not translatable and hence translated version of Ganjavi's poetry has almost no relation to Nezami ganjavi. Or does the sentence means "grave of Nezami Ganjavi" is appreciated? If so, this must be mentioned, because appreciation of graves is quite interesting and new. In either case the sentence should become "His heritage is widely appreciated and shared by Iran and persian speaking countries". But to add azerbaijan we should mention either "through modern translation by XYZ" or "because of a claim that his tomb is located there".--Xashaiar (talk) 10:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, you are right there was no Azerbaijani-Turkish language, ethnicity, culture and etc. during the time of Nezami[16](And I mean this in a scientific sense just like there was no Mexican or American culture or Modern English (it was Middle English and some groups in history appear later than others)). Overall, it seems the attempted political detachment of Nezami Ganjavi from Persian civilization is recognized by authors who write about the former USSR: Yo'av Karny, “Highlanders : A Journey to the Caucasus in Quest of Memory”, Published by Macmillan, 2000. Pg 124: “In 1991 he published a translation into Khynalug of the famous medieval poet Nezami, who is known as Persian but is claimed by Azeri nationalists as their own." However I think the lead is good.. It will keep away vandals and also a good source (Cambridge history of Iran): " Modern Azarbaijan is exceedingly proud of its world famous son". So the USSR nation building did popularize him somewhat. Someone sent me an article from Russian wikipedia about politicization of Nezami from an author name Tamashzivilli and wanted to put it in English. I simply said there is no need for it now. Basically my approach has been to be completely scientific (well not hundred percent for example see the latin alphabets in the intro or the intro itself) and try to maintain a friendly atmosphere for the article. Azerbaijan the country can also be proud of Nezami even if they can't read his masterpieces (translations obviously are poor and the words of the master are so tied to the language that probably Nezami is the most difficult poet to translate from Persian due to his play with words) and it is no big deal if we say he is a shared heritage by the Iran/Persian world (Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Persian speakers, Kurds..) and Azerbaijan the country. He is a Persian poet and he had Iranic ancestry(both mother and father's lineage who go back before the Seljuq era even, so making the change of him being a Turkmen nomad that became an urban Ganja urban dweler from his fatherside zero and he was orphaned from his father), but had he written his work in Arabic, he would be an Arabic poet. Nasimi/Esmail I who did not have Turkmen/Oghuz fatherlines are Azeri-Turkic poets or Pushkin is a Russian poet. This is the general scholarly convention used by Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, and etc, specially in an era when nationalities based on citizenship and state did not exist (Medieval Muslim world). For now the article is peaceful but if anyone pushes some sort of nationalistic pan-Turkism, we can just take it to mediation/arbcomm and permanently settle it and it is obvious administrators will go with what Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, Britannica and even what Azerbaijani officials say about Western Europe"Most in Europe consider Nizami a Persian poet."[17] (the delegate does not know that there was no Azerbaijani-Turkic at the time of Nezami..). Note I say this simply from scholarly viewpoint as I have no ill feeling towards any editor or group due to their background, but simply we should not tolerate nationalistic nation building from any country or group (including ourselves) in this Encyclopedia. The term Azerbaijani itself in the Stalin/USSR (in actually when the USSR said "Azerbaijani" at least up 1970 they meant Medes/Caucasian Albanians where-as these population did not speak Turkic) was modified to mean different thing and now that they are independent, they can start more scientific and fresh historiography and in the end a large literature/history or etc. does not make any individual better although Azeri-Turkic itself has impressive literature (Fizuli, Nasimi..) relative to most languages of the world. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

So basically just keep the introduction, it does no harm, but if there are arguments, it can be changed to Encyclopedia of Islam, Britannica, Iranica, even nationalistic Turkish scholars and most references with Persian poet on the first line (that will create vandals obviously but then admins will get involved). So overall the article can serve as an example of how a politicized issue can be peacefully written and some compromises made, specially with the sometimes tense atmosphere. I hope it remains peaceful like it has basically in the past two years and so, as Iranian users are not looking to have conflicts with users of any country, but simply keep their own heritage from politicization (which we criticize actions not human beings and not the vast majority of any citizen of any place and in this case the politicization is due to USSR and even Berteles was forced against his will as described by Tamashzivilli as he had Persian poet up 1935 until USSR nation building started and non-existent terms at the time of Nezami like Azerbaijani were ascribed to him and Azerbaijani it was described as Medes/Caucasian Albanians instead of Turkic (although heavy influence from Iranian languages/dna is present but scientifically it is a Turkic language). The same happened to Babak Khorramdin, Atropates, Medes, Zarathustra which are heritages of Iranian civilization..but this was due to USSR nation building (and the local population had no control) and these characters(such as Babak or Atropates) were not Turks either linguistically, culturallly or ethnically. Hopefully with the demise of USSR more scientific approaches to historiography will take place.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 20:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Basically I second Nepaheshgar here. The fact he had no idea what Turkic languages are does not cancel the fact that his heritage is appreciated in other countries. I see no reason of removal. It's interesting, that from different countries mentioned Xashaiar wants to remove only Azerbaijan. Brandt 21:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Still the argument stands. If "appreciation of Nezami in republic of Azerbaijan" is through translation it should be mentioned + the translator who made him more popular.--Xashaiar (talk) 21:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The actual full translations to Azeri-Turkic were made around the time WWII, but still there is no problem and no big deal with the intro. Since these countries today are the ones that share in his heritage. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

OK. Though I meant it "nezami the poet", and made it clear that Nezami as a person from Ganja has certainly a heritage. But over all I agree with you here.--Xashaiar (talk) 21:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

In Khosrow and Shirin for example Nizami mentions a Barda ruler and a beauty from the same town. Brandt 22:54, 14 June 2009 (UTC)