Talk:Gibraltar

Article Overhaul

Before somebody arbitrarily decided to archive the discussion page (July 09 - Aug 09) we were discussing how this article needs a major revision and reassessment, if not complete overhaul. It is written in a completely pro-British and anti-Spanish style and thus violates the Wikipedia principle of neutrality: WP:NPOV. Some good editors have tried to improve it by proposing small changes and additions to the article in the recent months, even years. However, their contributions have been repeatedly rejected and obstructed by some editors with an obvious pro-British bias. They impose their one-sided point of view with dishonesty, cynicism and even sarcasm. They prevent the article from being neutral and balanced by shoving aside constructive opinions and contributions. The result is a biased article which only reflects the British point of view.

For example, the British arguments in the sovereignty dispute are clearly presented at the top of the article. But there is no mention of the other side's point of view. It reads: "The overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians strongly oppose this [reunification with Spain] along with any proposal of shared sovereignty. The British government has stated that it is committed to respecting the Gibraltarians' wishes." But then no mention of the basis of the Spanish claims: 1) territorial integrity, 2) UN Resolutions mandating decolonization, or 3) the debate about the "transfer of sovereignty" under the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713, by which property of the territory was transferred (real estate) not sovereignty.

In the latter part of the article, there is no mention either of the UN Resolution against the Referendum of 1967, or of the dispute on territorial waters, the shifting of the border by Britain, or the ilegal trafficking. But then, irrelevant information like the "Jane’s Country Risk" study is rammed into the Main Page (it helps create a positive impression of the colony) when no other country or region article in Wikipedia has this on their main page. The whole thing is so blunt in its pro-British bias it is ridiculous. Complete, neutral, verifiable information should be presented in this article, not selective facts that fit people's political points of view. Important facts like the Non-Self Governing status of Gibraltar, or the basis for Spain's claims should be included immediately to stop this bias and provide some neutrality to the article. JCRB (talk) 07:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Please desist from using insulting language referring to Gibraltar as 'a colony; is legally incorrect and most offensive. The article is about Gibraltar not a Spanish obsession. There is an article which deals with the dispute. It is not appropriate here. --Gibnews (talk) 08:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The UN Decolonisation Committee is in fact discussed in this article. Nationalist rants merely confirm your own bias and lets be honest here, you and your sockpuppet MEGV tried and failed to introduce your edit last time. The IP sock puppet you appear to be using is unhelpful. Discuss your proposed edits in a reasonable manner, without the accusations of bias and you may get somewhere. But if you plan to spam the page with tendentious arguments as you did the last time you will get nowhere. Justin talk 08:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is amongst the most blatantly biased ones in all Wikipedia, along with those devoted to the History of Gibraltar, Gibraltarian people and the Great Siege of Gibraltar. Give us a rest, you lot. And what JCRB says is true: why exactly a the "Jane’s Country Risk" ranking are placed in the lead section? Please, see WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 10:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Commenting on the OP, the talk page was archived, any discussion can be readily retrieved at any time. The bad faith accusation inherent in that comment was unhelpful.

To the IP above, will you please cease with the accusations of bias. You are welcome to discuss changes in the article, not to indulge in bad faith attacks on editors. Justin talk 10:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure. We are so welcome to discuss changes. But they'll never make it to the article, and will stay in the talk pages 'till the end of times. Or until you censor them, that is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 10:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah right, you got me, I'm on a mission to abolish Spain from Wikipedia 'cos I hate it so much. Except I'm half-Spanish and you're just trolling to get a rise. I suggest you might think about coming back when you grow up. Justin talk 11:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Wich does not change the fact that you've censored a comment just because it was displeasant to you. That is so mature... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 11:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No posting the bad faith attack (which you just admitted to) was the immature act, as is trolling a talk page to get a rise. I suggest you grow up. Justin talk 11:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Ad hominem arguments? I love them, Justin. Now, do you have something related to the article to say like why is Jane's Review relevant enough to stay in the lead section, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 11:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

How about the fact that its relevant and why would you wish to expunge it? Justin talk 11:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Expunge it? Not really, but it should be relocated to the Economy section where it belongs. The lede is not the place for such statements as per WP:LEAD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 12:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]Gibraltar is a British Territory and its notable that it was rated higher than any other, including the UK by a prestigious and respected organisation. This seems to upset some editors. By way of contrast I saw that the Spanish wikipedia leads with a reference showing the Gibraltarians produce more Co2 per head than anyone else, and which has been used claim we are polluting the planet.

IF the article were so 'blatently biased' I expect someone impartial would have edited it by now, but its very factual. There are indeed people living in Gibraltar who's families had to leave when it was forcibly taken from Britain despite Article XI of the Treaty of Utrecht. But lets find some references to that instead of denying it happened. Gibraltar is not reverting to Spain any time soon, and rewriting articles on wikipedia, although preferable to firing cannon balls is much the same. --Gibnews (talk) 12:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

If the Spanish wikipedia is wrong, be bold and edit there. You are welcome. But two wrongs don't make a right. As for the blatant bias and "no impartials editing", you've got a 13 talk pages archive... For god's sake... Anyway, the fact that you can't consider yourself impartial it's enlightening. A very touching revelation indeed.

PS: and it's blatant, not blatent. Have a nice and british day.

I suggest you try and edit on the Spanish wikipedia to correct the content, you'll find it illuminating. Its patrolled by an admin who was blocked on the English wikipedia for edit warring on Gibraltar. I note you're now in violation of 3RR but no one is rushing to report you. The reason we have a 13 page archive is due to the tendentious edits of ardent Spanish nationalists who have sought to overturn the balance of the present article. Oh and the lede is perfectly valid as is and in line with policy. So again why do you wish to remove material?

And while we're on the subject do you really think such a confrontational attitude is conducive towards convincing people of your argument? Justin talk 12:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Justin, dear, you are also in violation of 3RR and I'm not rushing to report you either. On the other hand, it's also revealing (as it was in Gibnews' case) that you deem as "ardent Spanish nationalism" absolutely every content in the talk pages that does not fit into your own point of view (sorry, you were speaking about "overturning the balance of the present article"). And, again, I'm not advocating for removing material, but to include it in the correct section which is *not* the lead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 12:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually no I'm not, adding incorrect information is vandalism and reverting it does not count toward 3RR. In each case I suggested you take the point to talk and to de-escalate the conversation by removing talk of bias. I disagree that the material doesn't belong in the lead, its perfectly relevant. JCRB's justification is that its an attempt to portray a positive image of the "colony". Mmm, lets see using a term that is known to be offensive really helps doesn't it? Justin talk 13:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes you are. I could use your very own argument to defend myself, as you are the one who in the first place reverted my edits pretending to defend the "neutral point of view". You can't be serious when stating that you tried "to de-escalate the conversation", when your textual words have been take it to talk and pls do not make POV accusations to the mere addition of a citation needed tag.

Sigh, whatever, if you merely wish to be unnecessarily confrontational you will get nowhere. You know full well I was referring to your talk page comments. If you think that saying please is confrontational there is little hope for you. Describing the Spanish residents of Minorca as British colonists was incorrect, you added an edit that you either knew to be incorrect or merely added a provocative POV edit for you own POV reasons in ignorance of the facts. Either way you don't come across as a positive contributor. Adding a citation tag where it is unnecessary is pointy, you're disrupting the article to make a point. Justin talk 14:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Calling "POV accusations" to a request for sources, is not only confrontational, but shows a real lack of understanding of what neutrality means. And if you want to speak about the Minorca bits, we could write a book on it:

1- Original sentence, which I am sure that will be displayed in the article for a long time (and which is incidental at most in the topic dealt with in the "nationality of Gibraltarian people" section): "Other groups include Minorcans (forced to leave their homes when Minorca was returned to Spain in 1802)".

2- Fact tag added to the phrase "forced to leave their homes" (a funny statement indeed, since the same article just says "the Spanish left" when those gentle British and Dutch soldiers were invited into Gibraltar).

3- Plain reverts without substantiating.

4- Then you add two sources. Namely:

- Britain’s Last Conquest of Menorca 1798 - 1802.

- Minorca, the illusory prize : a history of the British occupations of Minorca between 1708 and 1802.

5- To which I add that the last occupation of Minorca lasted for only 4 years, and that people expelled from the former British colony were British colonists.

6- At this point, you revisit my edition by stating that the information is incorrect as "they" were "Spanish people who feared reprisals from the Spanish Government".

7- "So they weren't forced" Oddly, subconscious mind can be so treacherous. You contradict yourself, which brings up the question of what exactly say the references you've provided?". I'm still waiting for an explanation, but I do know what you are going to say anyway: Yes... I am disrupting the article to make a point. Good afternoon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.56.185 (talk) 15:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you have made your point. Be aware that dissruption articles and wasting everyones time is pretty pointless. There must be something better to do that continually attack articles about Gibraltar because they don't reflect your view of the world. --Gibnews (talk) 18:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah I see continuing with the bad faith accusations. My comments simply related to your earlier comments on the talk page. As regards the article in its current state, were you to make a reasonable suggestion as to a sensible alternative I'd happily consider it. Personally I think it could be better written, your edits showed no desire to provide something better. If thats what you expected, I'm sure you will be very happy. There is nothing subconscious in anything I've written, I didn't write that particular sentence anyway. Regards. Justin talk 19:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

<unindent>Guys, I am failing to see the virtue of this debate. No-one is getting anything from it, so why continue? Lets all just walk away for a couple of days. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Narson, but if this debate is not conducting anywhere is because you don't want it. Stating that some population just left while other was forced to leave in quite similar situations is showing a double standard. I have exposed this case in the Gibraltarian people article and, incidentally, also here as this article uses the same wording. The change has been reverted several times, so the use of such loaded terms is intentional.

And Justin, perhaps you didn't write that particular sentence, but you edited the text at least 8 times to keep it. Regards.

Huh? I'm assuming that the first sentence was meant to be 'If this debate is not going anywhere, it is because you don't want it to'? All I was saying was that the atmophere at the moment is combative which means nothing will be achieved, so everyone getting some time off and then coming back and seeing if there is still an issue would be a good idea. Wikipedia is about working together, and attacking /everyone/ on a talk page even if they havn't offered an opinion on the debate in hand is not going to win you support. Please take a couple of days, read some wikipolicies (WP:AGF appears to have died off on this page, on all sides. Also WP:CONSENSUS is a good one) and lets all remember this is not a battleground. --Narson ~ Talk • 11:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Err no, WP:AGF certainly hasn't died off as far as I'm concerned. I'm still prepared to listen to an alternative but do note that you sought to introduce a POV text, which was got reverted. You also introduced erroneous material. So once again, you are welcome to make suggestions, cut out the bad faith accusations and discuss it rationally and you may get somewhere. BTW technically you're blocked at the moment, I presume you're using another IP, so technically that is sockpuppetry and using it to continue with personal attacks is not conducive to going somewhere. Try talking to people, you might be surprised. Justin talk 13:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Justin, stop behaving like the owner of this articles... "I'm still prepared to listen to an alternative but do note that you sought to introduce a POV text, which was got reverted". And you do note that the first additions to the text were citation needed tags which you reverted over and over. Your definition of "POV text" is certainly weird. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.58.247 (talk) 14:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop making accusations, and read up on Wikipedia behavioural guidelines such as WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. You've been pointed at them several times because you are not following them.

Arguing over past actions does not improve your chances of persuading other editors to accept changes that you would like to see. Remember that changes to this and other articles require a consensus of editors, and that if you are not willing to assume good faith in others, it will be impossible for such a consensus to form. If there is no consensus for change, there is no change. Pfainuk talk 15:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

That editor has a point regarding the bias in "most of the population chose to leave Gibraltar peacefully" but again the usual editors reject a reasonable contribution. This is yet another example of the outrageously pro-British bias by those who repeatedly block good suggestions and contributions to this article. We argued this matter before and somebody produced verifable sources indicating that the Gibraltar population did not leave peacefully but in fact was forced to leave due to their fear of the British forces. This was actually justified as the town was later plundered by the Dutch and British soldiers. So for a change, stop obstructing verifiable information. JCRB (talk) 17:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

We did discuss it before. The text that I proposed at the end of that discussion was:

Terms of surrender were agreed upon, and much of the population chose to leave Gibraltar fearing reprisals following the murder of English and Dutch soldiers. Parts of the town were then plundered by the occupying forces.

You'll note that that's entirely sourced. I'm still willing to accept this. I'm still willing to accept it without the words fearing reprisals if that will get consensus. But if you are, as then, unwilling to accept that the words:

Many bloody reprisals were taken by the inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen were thrown down wells and cesspits.

state or at least very strongly imply that the murder of Englishmen and Dutchmen occurred before the inhabitants left the town, then consensus is plainly impossible. Without consensus, there is no change.

On a separate point, you're still failing to assume good faith. Please reread WP:AGF. Pfainuk talk 17:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

That is pretty much my recollecion Pfain. But then, it does not quite fall into the black and white that some editors prefer. Lets not revisit past subjects though without something new, we don't need to waste the bandwidth. JCRB? Please cut the hyperbole. It only serves to polarise things even more. IP? Please do read the policies, especially those on blocking policy and blocking evasion, as well as those mentioned above. An argument made from policy is likely to get more widespread support. --Narson ~ Talk • 17:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Fair point. If there's no new arguments, there's not much point in going over and over old ground. Pfainuk talk 18:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Semi

The anon is blocked for 3RR but is IP-hopping, so semi-protecting this page seems easier than a range block. Complaints? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Not from me, though I'd prefer it if they could just cool down and engage with other editors. Regards. Justin talk 20:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Improvement

I had forgotten that Pfainuk had proposed an improved text to the historical section. Personally I'd be happy to see what he proposes included in the article as being more accurate and NPOV. Regarding the exodus from Minorca, personally I would like to see the current text:

Other groups include Minorcans (forced to leave[57][58] their homes when Minorca was returned to Spain in 1802 by the Treaty of Amiens)

Replace with:

Other groups include Minorcans (who left Minorca fearing reprisals from the Spanish Government when the island was returned to Spain in 1802 by the Treaty of Amiens)[57][58]

More elaborate but perhaps better from a POV perspective. And it is balanced by the preceeding proposal from Pfainuk. I would suggest we include both. Comments? Justin talk 20:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems perfectly acceptable, and accurate. The initial wording may be concise but in being so concise it looks like it is randomly put there. I do still wonder if we wouldn't be better dedicating a sentence to the minorcan immigration rather than going 'Other groups', listing 3+ and only having a reason for one. --Narson ~ Talk • 20:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless the references specifically say they feared reprisals, we could leave that out, the Minorcans who came here did so because they preferred to live somewhere British. --Gibnews (talk) 20:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The references support it, I'd be happy to work in Narson's suggestion. Justin talk 20:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Pfainuk talk 11:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Article Overhaul (2)

To the editors who continuously obstruct the improvement and neutrality of this article: what gives you the right to semi-protect this talk page? Everyone has the right to participate in the discussion. Everybody, specially those editors who put forth constructive suggestions and provide verifiable information. So for once and for all STOP THAT DISRUPTIVE BEHAVIOR.

Second, since when is the term "colony" offensive? Is it offensive to those who have a political agenda in trying to depict Gibraltar as an independent country? Third, refrain from accusing editors of "bias" or of "nationalism" when they are only trying to include a small dosis of NEUTRALITY in a constructive way. And don't accuse others when it is you who repeatedly rejects verifiable facts like the Non-self Governing Status of Gibraltar, the basis of Spain's claims, or the UN Decolonisation mandates. Fourth, please stop your ridiculous "sockpuppetry" accusation. If you put your glasses on you'll see that I am signing my messages with my own name, JCRB, not an IP address. Fifth, don't tell me to "discuss my proposed edits in a reasonable manner.. and you might get somewhere" because I already have: here [1] and here [2] and here [3]. Many editors have already discussed edits in reasonable and constructive ways, and their sound proposals for improvement and higher neutrality have ALL been rejected through twisted arguments or questioning of sources or other stratagems to finally prevent their inclusion in the article.

If you want to prove your good faith and your neutrality start by completing the sentence about the sovereignty dispute with the other side's point of view:

"Gibraltar was ceded by Spain to the Crown of Great Britain in perpetuity, under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, though Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return based on the concept of territorial integrity and UN resolutions on decolonisation" JCRB (talk) 09:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Uhm. Lets start at the start, it was semi protected to avoid block evasion and it was done so by an admin whose involvement in this page is peripheral at best. So do a bit of thinking before you bandy around accusations of disruption.

If you truely believe you have no POV on this matter, then I fear there is little hope of a rational and productive conversation. Once again JCRB, bring something new to the table or there is little point in discussing it. --Narson ~ Talk • 11:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Though I would then add that I find it amusing that an editor whose messages are so filled with accusations of bias and nationalism is demanding that editors refrain from making accusations of bias and nationalism. Pfainuk talk 11:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Britain does not have any colonies, it has overseas territories. Gibraltar is not a colony and anyone who calls it that does so in order to insult its inhabitants and to deny us our human rights. At one time black people in America were slaves, you can refer to it in a historical context, but using terms related to that period today is simply not appropriate.

This article is about GIBRALTAR, not the Spanish claim, there is an article that describes the basis of that claim and its rebuttal fully. The article is there to inform people of that which is in Gibraltar. An American tourist to Gibraltar is interested in things here and not some outdated claim. A businessman wanting to set up a company here might want to be assured that there is no prospect of Gibraltar becoming Spanish as that would affect his operation, but he does not care about what was said at the UN C24,stuck in a time loop, makes no difference. So we are focusing on important things about Gibraltar, not Spanish dreams and delusions. --Gibnews (talk) 11:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The term colony is archaic and its only use in modern law is where the term is used in older legislation. (However this would apply to virtually all member states of the Commonwealth.} The Four Deuces (talk) 14:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The context in which it is used is that Spain asserts that the Gibraltarians are mere colonists from Britain who should either become Spanish citizens or leave. Its part of a dehumanising process.

Heres some background various positions taken at the UN C24 --Gibnews (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Do I take it that the attempt to improve elements of the article have been derailed yet again? Justin talk 19:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Depends. Unless someone actually objects to the change - and no-one has yet - then I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that silence implies consent. Obviously, any objection would need to give reasons - better reasons, one would hope, than the last time we tried this. Pfainuk talk 20:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

If you mean improve the language about the Minorcans, we seem to be in broad agreement. Otherwise it seems fine to me. --Gibnews (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Not sure what you mean by "block evasion", but that other editor had some good points, so stop blocking the the talk page just because you don't like his comments.

2. The article is full of bias and nationalism, that is why I accuse some editors of bias and nationalism. It is they/you who repeatedly obstruct good suggestions towards neutrality. Your attitude of obstruction, diversion, and blocking the talk page, is the proof of your bias. Your anti-Spanish statements (Gibnews) and your political declarations are the proof of your blatant impartiality. If you dare accuse me of "bias and nationalism" I would like to see on what grounds. I have always and only argued for neutrality.

3. Read carefully. I never said the article should include the word "colony". I am just defending myself from your accusations of "insulting Gibraltarians". I did not know that the term "colony" was derogatory in any way. In fact, allow me to doubt it. Many people in Britain still use the term. Archaic? Perhaps.

4. You say "the article is about Gibraltar, not the Spanish claims" and therefore you oppose my suggestion that the sentence includes a simple mention of the basis of those claims. Well, if the article is only about "that which is Gibraltar" why does it go out if its way to explain that "the overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians strongly oppose this, along with any proposal of shared sovereignty" ? And then continues with "the British government has stated that it is committed to respecting the Gibraltarians' wishes" ? Your reasoning betrays you. This is another example of the article's massive bias.

5. Proposed solution to point 4: either 1) mention the basis of Spain's claims, or 2) leave out the part of Britain's committment, and wishes of Gibraltarias. As you say, that should go in the Disputed Status of Gibraltar (which by the way is also incredibly biased). JCRB (talk) 17:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't understand the term block evasion? It means he was evading a block. He was blocked. He was using his rotating IP to avoid the consequences of that block. Also, either be clearer with who you are talking to or don't use the second person narrative, eh? It gets confusing. --Narson ~ Talk • 18:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Everyone now knows the word Colony is offensive. So lets not hear it again. --Gibnews (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Minorcan group in Gibraltar, I have to say that I find it a bit confusing (as some other issues in this article, but let's go bit by bit):

• Does it mean that some British persons (mainly soldiers, but also some public officials, some traders, ...) who lived in Menorca from 1708 to 1756 (48 years) or from 1763 to 1782 (19 years) or from 1798 to 1802 (4 years) now have descendants in Gibraltar? And that those descendants form a "demographic group" that is to be considered as "Minorcans" (part of which lives in Gibraltar), not "British"?
• How many years does one need to live in a place so that all of his/her descendants are to be considered a "demographic group" named after that place? --Imalbornoz (talk) 10:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

None of the above. Its talking about the ethnic mix in Gibraltar. The Minorcans who left were Spanish who'd worked with the British and feared reprisals. Justin talk 11:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I saw that the sources mention British people leaving the island, but didn't see any mention of Spanish Minorcans doing so. In which page, exactly, do the sources say that Spaniards left Menorca and went to Gibraltar because they were forced to do so or because they feared reprisals? --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Chapter 11 of Sloss' book, I don't have the other to hand as I've returned both to the library. Justin talk 12:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I must be getting slow in my old age, I just twigged what your post this morning was about. Its the usual POV nonsense. Thats it, don't know why the fuck I ever bothered to speak with you again. Why don't you find something productive to do with your time eh? Trolling this article is just wasting peoples time. Justin talk 12:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Justin, I think it is not all right to delete the contribution of an editor in an article's talk page. It is also not all right to use the expressions that you use.

Talking about the article: You don't need to go to the library. Here you have Sloss' book in pdf [4]. Chapter XI is about the town of Amiens and the treaty. Chapter XXII talks about "His Majesty’s subjects" (meaning British citizens). Could you please tell me and other users where in that book it talks about Spanish Minorcans leaving the island for fear of reprisal and going to Gibraltar? Thanks. --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT This is the second time that Justin deletes comments from this page. I don't think this is all right, is it? (I mean, taking into account that I am only talking about sources and that this talk page does not belong to him, does it?) I hope nobody starts and edit war... in the talk page!!!!

Justin answered my question about sources in my talk page. See below:

"It was Chapter 10, I was relying on memory as I didn't have the book in front of me:

Fox ordered that Nicolas Orfila’s position as civil assessor be

renewed, with more pay, since he was “a gentleman of great merit and professional abilities” and had worked faithfully for the British administration since first appointed by Sir Charles Stuart. Orfila felt that his future on the island was doubtful. He wrote that he had tried to get justice done in the affairs of the church and its abuse of funds, but that the pr iests had ‘indisposed’ him to several powerful families of the island who wanted the abuses to continue. If, after the peace, the island were returned to Spain, they would use their influence at court in Madrid to lose him his job, and persecute and ruin his family. He asked Fox to intercede on his

behalf with the king of Spain.

In January 1802, Major General Clephane repeated the request to

London. “In the event of the cession of this island to the Spanish government, there are several individuals that, I am afraid, will suffer considerably for their attachment and good will towards the English. The civil assessor, Don Nicholas Orfila, appears to me in every respect a most upright judge, and a real patriot, studying only to administer public justice without being in the least influenced by any improper

motives. I wish I could say as much of the other judges.

Now stop wasting my time. I have already indicated I DO NOT wish to converse with you anymore. Justin talk 13:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)"

Focusing on content, it seems that a book says that one Minorcan was afraid that he would lose his job after the return of the island to Spain, and asked Fox to intercede on his behalf with the king of Spain. Clephane repeated the request to London.

It does not say anything that may support that a group of Minorcans were forced to leave the island and went to Gibraltar to form a "Demographic group". This is not enough to support the current statement in the article.

(BTW, I was coming to the article after my summer vacation, in order to keep talking about self-government, but first I saw this.) --Imalbornoz (talk) 15:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not wish to converse with you. The purpose of that citation supports Minorcans feared reprisals. As you don't appreciate my attempt to eliminate text that you apparently found POV I'm reverting to the previous consensus. Well done, once again a Spanish POV pusher has frustrated attempts to make the article more neutral. Woo hoo, more contentious arguing crap on the talk page that doesn't advance. The conversation about "self-government" is over, the article as writtem conforms to wiki policies. We are not going to change it to favour a particular point of view or to deny VERIFIABLE facts. Justin talk 15:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

And there are two sources supporting that sentence, you're quibbling about the details of one. That doesn't make it any less valid. So far on Wikipedia, you have not produced one productive edit, you've wasted a stack of people's time on the talk page. Your post this morning was trolling, it was trying to get a rise. Once again wasting people's time. Why don't you find something productive to do? Justin talk 15:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Justin in the sense that this source supports the fact that several individuals from Menorca may have feared reprisals because of their attachment to the English after the Treaty of Amiens. That is very interesting for the History section of the Menorca article. I do not see how this can fit in the Gibraltar article (unless someone provides a verifiable source saying that afterwards those Minorcans did in fact go to Gibraltar).

I have looked into the other article [5], but haven't been able to find any reference to Minorcans going to Gibraltar.

In fact, here you have an alternative and less complicated explanation for the existence of Minorcans in Gibraltar: [6]. That would mean that many Minorcans arrived before the Treaty of Amiens because of the intese relation between Gibraltar and British Menorca (ergo -at least- many Minorcans in Gibraltar did not come when they were forced to leave their island). It would simplify the current discussion.

Unless someone challenges my proposed source, I intend to leave the article to say that "Other groups include Minorcans, Sardinians, (...)" (which includes all Minorcans regardless of the cause of the arrival). Does that satisfy everybody? --Imalbornoz (talk) 17:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, removing something you don't like, what a surprise. I object, my edit was referenced, yours is not. Justin talk 19:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

If Minorcans came to Gibraltar because they preferred to live in a British territory, which is what their descendants here say, and there are references to support that, then attempting to cover that up is not acceptable. --Gibnews (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems I wasn't able to explain myself: Edward G. Archer says in his book "Gibraltar: identity and empire" the following:

"The explanation for the arrival of Minorcans is not difficult to find. Minorca, like Gibraltar, was recognized as British under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, and with it came the magnificent harbor of Mahon. The links between Gibraltar and Minorca were extensive, including the regular movement of troops between the two garrisons. Similarly, civilians could move from one to the other, avoiding a war or seeking new opportunities. It was probably the opportunity for work that first brought Minorcans to the Rock where they were employed as sailors, masons, carpenters, tailors, shoemakers and labourers. Minorcans would know of Gibraltar's needs when the town was re-built after the Grand Siege in 1783. Numbers again grew during the wars with Spain around the turn of the century, despite the terrible effects of epidemics."

Therefore, it seems that Minorcans moved to Gibraltar for a variety of reasons (even if some of them were forced to leave after 1802 -which we still haven't been able to verify- many others came for other reasons). Which probably can be summarised in what Gibnews says: They preferred to live in Gibraltar. I suppose that the same happened with Sardinians, Sicilians, ... Should we enumerate all of the reasons why each demographic group moved to Gibraltar? What is the main point of this section of the article: to talk about the ethnic mix of Gibraltar or about their reasons for their coming to Gibraltar?

If nobody challenges my source, I will have to leave Minorcans with the same detail as the rest of other demographic groups. --Imalbornoz (talk) 06:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Only because you want to push your POV - But if references support otherwise it stays because that is what wikipedia is about not promoting Spain or Spanish government. You really don't 'have' to do anything. The referenda clearly show what the population of Gibraltar think of Spain. --Gibnews (talk) 07:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Err no, ultimatums will get you precisely nowhere. Expunging material because you perceive it is critical is not acceptable. The material you've uncovered might be used to expand the Minorcan section, it doesn't justify reducing it. If you are stating its your way or the highway, then I will oppose that edit. Justin talk 08:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not giving any ultimatums. I am not trying to promote any Spanish government. I am just saying that it is verifiable (see Archer's quote) that Minorcans moved to Gibraltar for many reasons, many of them before the Treaty of Amiens. Therefore, we can not say that they came because they were forced out of their homes after the Treaty: even if it were veryfiable, it would only apply to a subgroup of Minorcans, not all of them.

It is more or less the same as Sardinians, Sicilians, French,... (they also came for a variety of reasons, some even may have come as political refugees...). It seems that the current criteria is not to give details on the reasons for the arrival of each one of those demographic groups. I agree with that criteria: it makes the point of demographic diversity, does not make the content of the article too complex WP:SIZE, and the reader will suppose that they moved to Gibraltar because they preferred to live there. I don't see any reason to apply a different criteria on Minorcans and say that "Minorcans moved to Gibraltar in order to work as sailors, carpenters, tailors, shoemakers, labourers,...".

I wouldn't like to keep wasting your time and my time discussing whether it is verifiable or not that some Minorcans were forced out of their homes (which Archer does not mention as an explanation for their arrival) when we can all agree that they came for a variety of reasons, more or less the same as other demographic groups, and just enumerate Minorcans in the same fashion that we do with Sardinians, French, etc. --Imalbornoz (talk) 08:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh you'll happily waste everyone's time. It is verifiable, you'll notice I've softened that comment to read they left fearing reprisals, yet funnily enough you're still referring to the previous text. You'll also notice I also said that you could consider including BOTH, yet funnily enough you're still pushing to remove the current text. And you did issue an ultimatum and rather than simply come out and suggest an edit, you start by snidely implying that the people who left Minorca in 1802 were not really Minorcans. Its exactly the same tactic as before, starting by winding every one up with snide comments, then pretend to be offering something reasonable when your aim is to remove material you don't like. You don't fool anyone. Justin talk 09:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems the same tactic is being used against the Minorcans as is asserted against the Gibraltarians themselves, that we are mere 'colonists' and not a people with rights. That may be the official Spanish Government line but its a rather nasty racist POV. --Gibnews (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

I don't want to silence anything at all, I just want consistent criteria in the article. So do you (Justin, Gibnews, and other editors) propose that we detail the reasons for moving to Gibraltar of each demographic sub-group of Minorcans (the several individuals who -supposedly- moved to Gib because they were afraid, the ones who went to work before the Treaty, the sailors, the ones who went to reconstruct Gibraltar after the Great Siege, ...)?

• If you do, I will add the verifiable reasons for each sub-group of Minorcans, and will look for the reasons of other demographic groups. Also, I will accept the reference to Minorcans moving because they were afraid, as soon as someone proves that a source says that a significant group of Minorcans who were afraid after the Treaty of Amiens did indeed move to Gibraltar (not just that some Minorcans were afraid in Menorca -which I agree it is verifiable, but does not currently have any reference whatsoever to their moving to Gibraltar).
• If you don't, we should apply that criteria to all other groups (including Minorcans). Otherwise, the article would not use consistent criteria (it would look like you only want to tell that evil Spaniards kicked some Minorcan refugees out to Gibraltar and silence facts about other demo groups, which I am sure is not what you want to do, do you?).

What option do you and other editors interested in this article prefer? I am afraid that the first option will not be good for WP:SIZE, but I will be happy to flow with the consensus of the rest of editors (as long as they choose one of those two consistent alternatives). --Imalbornoz (talk) 11:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't wish to silence anything? Mmm, lets look at the evidence shall we. You're claiming something isn't referenced when it is. You've had the suggestion of including both reasons, you haven't responded. You're trying to diminish the size of a move from one place to another because you don't like the comment "fearing reprisals". Anything that you perceive as even remotely critical of Spain you seek to expunge; I note there is no disputing that the edit that the Spanish residents left Gibraltar fearing reprisals. And excuse me but who gave you the authority to dictate what goes into an article? You do not get to dictate the options available. Justin talk 11:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, you are right, I will try to avoid dictating options and include all possible options. Which of these 3 options do you think is better for the article (I don't think that -according to logic- there are any other options than the following three, but I could be wrong, and then would thank you if you tell me):

• a) to include the reasons for all other demographic groups and sub-groups moving to Gibraltar (that could include, among others, both sub-groups of Minorcans -in case that you prove that afraid Minorcans did in fact go to Gibraltar after the Treaty-, and other demo groups with reliable sources)
• b) only the reasons for some'
• or c) none of them?

In case you choose to include only the reasons for some sub-groups, which ones would you choose? --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Again the option was there to represent BOTH of the reasons discussed so far. Any particular reason why you don't want to do that? Its already referenced, once again you deny that it is. Bit difficult to WP:AGF when you always, without exception, misrepresent the situation. Not exactly productive is it. Still ain't seen an edit proposal either. 12:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, so you choose to represent the reasons of BOTH groups of Minorcans (the ones who -according to you- came with fear and the other ones). Here you have an edit proposal: if everybody else agrees, I will get going with it. What about the other groups (other Spanish, English, Scottish, Maltese, Genoans, Ligurians, Indians, Jews, Moroccans, ...)? Would you agree that I include the reasons for their going to Gibraltar? I have references from the same book: Gibraltar, identity and empire By Edward G. Archer, pages 34 to 51 (this is another edit proposal, consistent with the previous one). --Imalbornoz (talk) 15:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I propose we leave it as it is and stop wasting time. --Gibnews (talk) 15:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Still haven't seen an edit proposal. And the edit says they feared reprisals, it does not comment on whether that was justified or not. Propose an edit, here, then we'll see. Justin talk 17:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, so it's here where I have to ask permission and then you will see. I haven't seen the same procedure for everyone (for example when Gibmetal77 introduced the self-governing expression in the lead last April), but I guess that my case is different. All right, then.

I have to say first -just for the record- that I think that the best option would be to have an enumeration of other demographic groups, and leave the detail for the Demographics of Gibraltar main article. Rationale: It is verifiable (see Archer's book) that Minorcans came for a variety of reasons, just like "Sardinians, Sicilians and other Italians, French, Germans, and the British." This option would not increase the current size of the article, would apply a consistent criteria to all those groups, and keep the main point of the section (explaining the demographic diversity of Gibraltar). But I see that Gibnews and you think it is necessary to say why a portion of Minorcans went to Gibraltar.

I think that the next best option is to be consistent and add the origin of all other demographic groups and sub-groups (not just the Minorcans who -supposedly- came because of fear). The edit proposal for this option is as follows (I will try to be as simple and clear as possible):

"By 1753 Genoese (who came during the 1700s and 1800s, especially from the poorer parts of Liguria, some of them annually following fishing shoals, as repairmen for the British navy, or as successful traders and merchants[7]; many others came during the Napoleonic period to avoid obligatory conscription to the French Army[8]), Maltese (who were in the same imperial route to the east as Gibraltar, and came when jobs were scarce at home and others to escape the law in Malta), and Portuguese people formed the majority of this new population. Other groups include Minorcans (whose migration to Gibraltar was initiated due to the common British rule since 1713, first looking for work in several trades, especially when Gibraltar needed to be rebuilt after the 1783 Grand Siege[9]; several individuals also moved when the island was returned to Spain in 1802 by the Treaty of Amiens, fearing reprisals from other Minorcan families)[60][61], Jews (mostly Sephardic Jews, who were able to re-establish their rites, forbidden in Catholic Spain, right after the British occupation in 1704, but also Jews from London especially since the Great Siege [10]), Indians (most of them from Hyderabad, some of whom came as merchants after the opening of the Suez Canal in 1870 and many others again after the closure of the frontier with Spain in 1969 to replace Spanish workers[11]), Sardinians, Sicilians and other Italians, French (many of whom came after the French Revolution in 1789 setting up trade and commerce)[12], Germans, and the British. Immigration from Spain and intermarriage with Spaniards from the surrounding Spanish towns was a constant feature of Gibraltar's history until General Francisco Franco closed the border with Gibraltar, cutting off many Gibraltarians from their relatives on the Spanish side of the frontier.

As you will see, those are verifiable reasons for other demographic groups and sub-groups just like the Minorcans that -supposedly- came because of fear. This can be improved as we find reasons for Portuguese, British,... You will see that -as an act of good faith- I have temporarily suspended disbelief and kept your reference. I have only corrected a slight detail: according to your source, the only potential retaliation comes from other Minorcan families, not from the Spanish government, as you will see in "the priests had indisposed him to several powerful families of the island who wanted the abuses to continue. If, after the peace, the island were returned to Spain, they would use their influence at court in Madrid to lose him his job, and persecute and ruin his family" (the retaliator would be the families and the government of Spain -which the source does not mention to have any reason for retaliation- only the "weapon").

What do you think? --Imalbornoz (talk) 09:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Too much detail for the main article. Maybe appropriate in a dedicated article. --Gibnews (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Needs some work, I would be more disposed toward considering your proposed edit had you not felt the need to add supposedly in your comments. Once again you make a comment that is more designed to derail a collaborative process than facilitate it. I would also suggest it needs to be slimmed down more to suit, I will make some suggestions presently. Justin talk 17:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Gibnews. This is way too much information for the main article. It would be great to include this in the Demographics of Gibraltar and Gibraltarian people articles. I suggest we leave it as a referenced list of the different peoples for the purposes of the main article, and concentrate on working on the above to include it in the mentioned aforementioned articles. --Gibmetal 77^talk 19:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Gibnews and Gibmetal 77. I'll start working on that. --Imalbornoz (talk) 08:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Initial shift towards Neutrality

It appears nobody has challenged my proposition above (point 5). Therefore I will go for option 1 (point 5) which is extending the sentece to include the basis for Spain's claim. This is only a start towards a more neutral article, so more changes will be required. Regarding the Minorcan issue, I think Imalbornoz has a point, and there's no reason why that shouldn't go on the Main Page. JCRB (talk) 11:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

No, people have ignored your proposition, we have been through this many times before. Your proposals aren't acceptable. There is no point rehashing old ground. Perhaps you could resurrect your sock puppet and agree with yourself again. Justin talk 11:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Although I agree with JCRB in some of his arguments (I think that this article needs some additional POVs in order to gain neutrality) I am not sure that the lead needs to explain the basis for Spain's claims. I am quite happy with the NPOV of that paragraph, relative to the rest of the article. Right now, the lead does not explain the basis for anyone's claims; it concentrates on describing the position of each side. If we were to include Spain's arguments, then we would also have to include Gibraltar's and Britain's in order to have NPOV. The paragraph describes pretty well Spain's and Gibraltar's position, and part of Britain's (it does not say that Britain has proposed shared sovereignity, which is the reason why the paragraph says that Gibraltarians reject shared sovereignity). I propose that the basis for each one's claims is kept in the article below. (BTW, I am half done with the demographics: as Gibmetal and Gibnews proposed, I am adding detail to the Gibraltar Demographics article and just keeping a reference list of the peoples in the Gibraltar main article).--Imalbornoz (talk) 12:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

BTW, regarding demographics, are you sure that the male/female proportion in the 16-64 age group is 1.44[13]? Dividing 9,470 by 9,070 is 1.044 not 1.44. I don't know who put those numbers there, so I'm asking: do you mind if I make a correction? --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I have finished with the Demographics of Gibraltar article. Main changes:

• a) I have changed the title of the section from "Overview" to "Ethnic origin". Rationale: even before the expanded information, this section dealt with the origin of different ethnic groups in Gibraltar, it was not an overview of the Gib's demographics (which also include age groups, male/female proportions, education...) Now, even more so.
• b) I have included all the additional information, grouping it according to the different demographic origins (before, groups were a bit disperse -> e.g. Spaniards were in the beginning and in the end of the section). I have also ordered them according to the size of groups and given more detail to bigger groups (before, e.g., British had no detail at all).
• c) I have completed the reasons for original Spaniards leaving the Rock in 1704. Now the text says that "occupiers and inhabitants exchanged atrocities and retaliation until few villagers wanted or dared to remain". Rationale: the previous text only said that Spaniards killed Dutch and Englishmen then feared retaliation and then left; the source[14] says that Spaniards were afraid of "atrocities" (the word is used by the source) beforehand, then marines and crewmen acted so that "the inhabitants' worst fears were confirmed" (on temples-women-etc.), then Spaniards killed Englishmen and "By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain". With the current text, no side gets a bigger proportion of guilt (both exchanged atrocities and retaliation). It just didn't sound too believable that some villagers started to kill soldiers without any previous provocation (and the source confirms that).

If you have any comment, please tell me. All of the text is sourced and I have invested a significant amount of time writing it, so I would thank you if you propose any improvement to that section of the article in this talk page beforehand so that we can all agree on it (I know it's not necessary, but I think it's better for the article, as I may be able to explain doubts that you may have about the new text). Thanks. --Imalbornoz (talk) 15:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Mmm, you would have been better served given your prior history proposing an edit in talk first before adding it to the article. I've made some changes. Justin talk 15:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we move to Talk:Demographics of Gibraltar to further discuss the addition of the ethnic origins section. --Gibmetal 77^talk 21:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, I am discussing Justin's changes in that page. --Imalbornoz (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Detail of Capture

I feel the details of the capture belong in the history of Gibraltar rather than the main article. That the Spanish occupants of Gibraltar broke the truce and murdered British and Dutch sailors then managed to evade justice by running away is pretty immaterial. --Gibnews (talk) 12:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

It was agreed in early September (around the 5th of September) to explain the reasons for the Spaniards leaving Gibraltar. During the last few weeks, that section has been improved by several editors. The current version only makes that explanation much more precise without significantly adding too many words (only 5 more words). --Imalbornoz (talk) 15:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like its trying to justify the defeated Spanish murdering people and it has nothing to do with Gibraltar today. --Gibnews (talk) 17:08, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

It does not try to justify anything. It just states facts as they are explained in the sources: promises were made, rapes, desecrations and lootings were committed in spite of senior officers, the townspeople left and founded San Roque. Those are verifiable facts.

Things that happened during those days changed the history of Gibraltar: Gibraltar is today as we know it, in great part, due to the fact that almost all the previous inhabitants left the town. It is probably one of the three pivotal points -together with the invasion and the Treaty of Utrecht- between the "Spanish period" and the "British period". So it is relevant to the History of Gibraltar.

It should also be noticed that in those days it was not so unusual to be invaded by foreign troops. And villagers didn't usually attack invading troops out of the blue or left their hometown without a very important reason. So it is also relevant that -in spite of formal promises and the effort of senior officers- atrocities were committed on the village.

Those are verifiable and relevant facts. And they only take 5 more words than the previous version. We should not try to silence them. I hope that you guys (Gibnews and Justin) don't start an edit war on this. --Imalbornoz (talk) 22:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

You would appear to be the one edit warring. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the text as it is. You are welcome to convince people otherwise. Justin talk 22:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

No, Justin, he isn't. Sources are pretty clear about rapes, looting and desecrations. Omitting them and just talking about murder of sailors, without explaining why is just biasing the section. Is there a reason to omit what the Anglo-Dutch sailors did (as for example what happened with Our Lady of Europe? Let's remember we're talking about history, not about politics. --Ecemaml (talk) 23:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC) PS: the funniest thing is that none of the sources attributes the exodus to any fear of reprisals (better to fear to looting as happened in Cadiz some years before), so please, regardless of the final redaction, don't introduce such an original investigation and look for proper secondary sources

Yes, he is. WP:BRD Bold, Revert, DISCUSS. As was discussed above, such detail is not merited in an overview article. We agreed that a summary would suffice and the detail would go into another article - which it has. Per WP:UNDUE if this section becomes simply a discussion about what a foul bunch of bastards the British were, as you and your friend seem into on doing, then the article is unbalanced. Yes, this is history not politics, so lets not make it a one sided diatribe shall we?

Furthermore, in the summary, it makes it plain that the actions of the Anglo-Dutch sailors was inappropriate. We don't need a list of foul deeds. Or perhaps we could enter into mutual recriminations and talk about murdering and dismembering sailors and flinging their mortal remains into cess pits. Does that improve the article? No it doesn't.

The comments are not original research, its an attempt to summarise the situation in a manner appropriate for an overview article. Your assertion that we have to have a source for the exact words is specious reasoning at its worst, wikipedia couldn't exist as it would be a copyright violation. Justin talk 09:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Justin, the previous version just mentions the "behaviour" of the invaders... but does not say which behaviour. The current version does explain it: rapes, lootings and desecrations (not just any kind of behaviour). It is relevant to say that. It does so concisely and is still a summary (with just 5 more words in the paragraph). All of it is supported by sources. On the other hand, as Ecemaml says, no source supports that villagers left for fear of reprisal (as the previous version stated). Please do not revert that edit again and discuss about it here. Thanks. --Imalbornoz (talk) 10:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No it isn't, its one sided. It lists "atrocities" by one side but not the other. But heh, seeing as you feel it is necessary, I've added the fact that the Spanish descrated the bodies of murdered sailors by throwing them into cess pits. Isn't the article so much better now?

And as I'm at 3 reverts, no I won't revert it today. But I do not feel that material is necessary. So I will remove it in future. You should have discussed it and achieved consensus before adding it but, no, as usual you edit war to get your own way, gaming the system. Justin talk 10:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I also consider the edit summary to be misleading, it is not as per discussion. The discussion thus far is opposed to that edit. Justin talk 10:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Justin, you say that the edit only explained atrocities by one side. You don't consider that murder is an atrocity? Myself, I consider it an atrocity much worse than rape, looting or desecration, but it's just my opinion. To have an external reference, most modern laws dictate much bigger punishments for murder than for rape, desecration or looting.

About desecrating bodies, one comment about style: I don't know, it's a bit too poetic and metaphorical for me. The desecration of churches has a very specific and objective meaning; desecrating bodies... do the sources really say that? (what about dismembering and so on?)

And one comment about the content: the previous version already said what was done by each side in an equivalent manner (desecrations, rapes, lootings and murders); it did not go into detail and explain how it was done (how women were raped, how churches were desecrated, how lootings were perpetrated or how murders were inflicted). If you want to argue about NPOV, I think the previous version was OK. Now you propose to explain how Englishmen's bodies were "desecrated" (or rather, were they just "hidden"?). Should someone propose to explain how churches were desecrated or women raped in order to stay even? (I won't, but it would be coherent with your edit). Please think about it. I have tried to make a NPOV edit, just describing facts (I hope you realise it).

About discussion: it was discussed in the Gibraltar Demographics article talk page. In fact, you edited the previous version in this article exactly the same as you did in that article (so I guess you thought that it was consistent in that case, but -somehow- not in this case).

I don't think that it improves the article, but -hey- I leave it to you and other editors to decide. --Imalbornoz (talk) 10:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't improve the article and neither does the version you insist upon - thats the point. Your edit is not NEUTRAL - thats the point. And once again your comments about what the Spanish did belies your POV issues; you attempt to excuse what is inexcusable. Change murder to kill if you think it improves the article or if that is your only objection. What the article doesn't need is a tit for tat list of atrocities. THAT IS THE POINT. The previous version was not OK, your insistance on always having YOUR version of everything is not conducive toward a co-operative enterprise. Justin talk 11:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that "murder" describes what some villagers did on Englishmen. I do not intend to look for a milder term or try to look for excuses: it was an atrocity, it was relevant and it should stay in the article. (in fact, I don't think that what they did with the corpses in order to hide or to desecrate them is as relevant as the murderings: if someone wants to murder me, that's what I'll try to avoid; if that person unfortunately succeeds, they can do with my corpse whatever they want...)

I also think that "desecrations", "lootings" and "rapes" describes what was performed by the invaders. I will not try to look for a milder term or excuses, either. It is verifiable and relevant, and it should also stay in the article as such.

Finally, if your edit was trying to make a WP:POINT in spite of thinking that it does not improve the article, I think that it would be nice if you could undo it, if you want. --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No, I'll leave it balanced for now and remove BOTH tomorrow. The list of atrocities that is, it doesn't improve the article. Justin talk 12:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Justin, I'm afraid that a "slow motion" edit war is still an edit war. It seems that we have reached a deadlock in the discussion: you don't want the text to say that Englishmen perpetrated rapes, lootings and desecrations because it does not improve the article and it's too many details (although you want the text to say that townspeople murdered Anglo-Dutch soldiers); I think that the article has to include them because they are relevant (those events led to the situation that made villagers leave Gibraltar in exile, and THAT changed the history of Gibraltar), especially if it makes the article only 5 words longer. You have said that you are ready to revert whenever you can (in order to avoid the 3RR).

Don't you think it would be better to ask for a third opinion or mediation? I am ready to ask for it if you want. --Imalbornoz (talk) 14:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war, the only reason there is an impasse is entirely due to your unwillingness to compromise or accept anything other than YOUR EDIT. As usual you misrepresent my position. I have accepted those details where appropriate. I've even accepted the current text being modified to accommodate your sensibilities. I've told you why I don't think your edit is appropriate and illustrated why. You nontheless insist on YOUR version. There is a deadlock because you insist on having your way and are not prepared to compromise, whereas I have. I will revert, because your edits do not improve the article. I've left the article balanced, it will still be balanced when I'm finished.

I'm disinclined to think mediation will go anywhere, you seem to be offering mediation as a means to preserve text I consider unacceptable while it goes forward. You're not prepared to work toward consensus, you simply insist on your own way. Mediation or third opinion will go nowhere whilst you're not prepared to listen; evidenced by your constant habit of edit warring to keep your edit. Revert to an earlier version and we'll see. Justin talk 15:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I have accepted many suggestions from you in the Demographics article, which led to the current paragraph. Now, what do we do if I take your position and say:

"I've told you why I don't think your" reversion "is appropriate and illustrated why. You nontheless insist on YOUR version. (...) I will revert" your reversions "because your edits do not improve the article. I've left the article balanced (...) You are not prepared to work toward consensus, you simply insist on your own way..."

Would you think it is constructive? Come on, let's see if someone from outside can help us. --Imalbornoz (talk) 15:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No, you didn't take my suggestions. Every time I edited, you edited what I'd written. Its always your version. You're not constructive, right from the start you've taken a combative approach. Everything is a battle with you, you constantly misrepresent what people have said. I can't see an outside opinion helping, truthfully I can't. Justin talk 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I did take some of your suggestions (I proposed several versions[15][16][17][18] following your suggestions..., until some consensus was reached). Should we try mediation and see what happens? In the worst case, we will only have lost a couple of hours and will be in the same situation that we are now. Of course, we should have consensus on how we explain the case to a neutral mediator (for example: 80 words for you and 80 for me?). --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

That is nonsense, even when your edit was grammatically incorrect you edit warred to keep it. Again I don't see the point in mediation when you refuse to accept anything but your version. Justin talk 19:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi both, I support the request for mediation. --Ecemaml (talk) 21:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi both, I don't. The last one was about as useful as a chocolate teacup. RedCoat10 • talk 16:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Imalbornoz doesn't want mediation, he seems to think mediation is about making judgements, usually in his favour. He isn't listening, I make it 4 people disagree and he still reverted again (and noticeably to HIS version, the one sided one that only lists atrocities by one side). There you go. Justin talk 19:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Justin, your statement ("Imalbornoz doesn't want mediation") seems sort of telepathy. The number of people doesn't make necessary or not a mediation. There are two obvious positions and it seems as if only one of the sides giving up is acceptable for the other. I support again the mediation request. --Ecemaml (talk) 22:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

No, just going on past history. Have a look at the case he filed, he asks for mediation to make a judgement. And as I said on the talk page, I'm tired of his rather too obvious tactic of creating conflict, then turning round and pretending to be reasonable. And no having him "give up" is not the only acceptable position for me, I've already suggested a compromise. Where has he ever compromised? That is the issue and that is why mediation is not going anywhere. Justin talk 22:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]The detail of the capture belongs in the article on the History of Gibraltar. All that is appropriate to note in the main article that the Spanish garrison of Gibraltar was defeated. In 1704 there was no Geneva convention on the conduct of war. When the Spanish occupied Gibraltar they simply killed all the inhabitants, again in keeping with behaviour of that day. The bottom line is that in 1704 they left, and all the whinging and whining about it is immaterial. Its simply and expression of the Spanish POV that 'we was robbed' rather than accepting a military defeat and the status quo which has prevailed thereafter despite the best efforts of attacking Gibraltar after signing several peace treaties promising not to do so.

However, IF its considered necessary, lets have all the rape and murder in the history article and keep the main Gibraltar article fresh and concise. --Gibnews (talk) 22:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The issue is that five more words does not make an article more verbose or rotten. BTW, I've removed a sentence that seems original research, as it's not supported by the source. --Ecemaml (talk) 22:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As per the message on your talk page, I've restored the sentence. The sources already in the article support it. Strange that there is so much focus on adding alleged atrocities committed by the British forces and at the same time we're removing the fact that the Spanish also committed atrocities. The case could be made that someone is attempting to skew the POV in the article to favour one side. Pls don't edit war over this. Justin talk 22:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

And with respect the issue is not whether there is 5 words more or less, the issue is that the edit seeks to only list the bad behaviour of one side and expunge the references to the Spanish atrocities. Lets deal with the actual issue rather than attempting to spin it. Justin talk 22:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

I've restored the previous text because it is unacceptable per WP:NPOV to add an edit that is focused on solely one side, whilst at the same time expunging the misconduct of the other. Pls do not edit war to skew the article to a biased state. Justin talk 23:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Justin, I think this is your 3rd reversion today. I think you should step back and think about the need for a mediator in order to not enter into an edit war. --Imalbornoz (talk) 23:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Then don't edit war, notice how every time I come to the talk page to discuss it. You just revert, insisting it has to be your biased version. 23:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

So, do you insist you don't want mediation? I honestly think it would be good (for both of us and the article) to have an external opinion. --Imalbornoz (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah I see, don't edit war, then reverts in the next stage of an edit war. Fine, the Spanish atrocities and desecration of bodies goes back in then. Isn't this so good for improving the article? No I don't refuse mediation, I don't see the point of it. You want the external opinion to give a judgement, which you think will be in your favour. I also don't see the point, when you are always so confrontational about everything. Even when other voices such as Gibmetal77 have give you an external opinion, you ignored it (apparently because he is from Gibraltar and therefore must be biased). You ignored it because you didn't like it. And when you don't get what you want, what is it, forum shopping again? Justin talk 23:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I just saw your comment and your edit. I don't agree with it, but will let it be. Please, will you agree that we go to mediation. --Imalbornoz (talk) 23:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You really want mediation? Mediation is not about an external opinion saying who is right and who is wrong. You want the mediator to say you're right, they won't do that. Thats why I think its pointless.

I've already stated that I don't want a war of "atrocities" but if you insist on making the article biased in one direction by insisting on those details, then NPOV demands that details of the other side are also included.

If you really want mediation, then I would ask that the article is taken to a neutral version, that is a request not a demand. Justin talk 23:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I have left your edit mentioning "desecration of bodies". I thought you said it made the article NPOV: your only objection after your edit was that it was unnecessary, not that it was biased any more -in fact you said it was "balanced"-[19][20] (as I said, I don't agree with its verifiability and relevance, but will let it be for the sake of the consensus process).

Now I hope that, according to your own standards, your "request" for NPOV is fulfilled. Of course, we still disagree about content and verifiability. In fact, that's what mediation is for: to help reach an agreement where there is disagreement. Would you go for mediation now? --Imalbornoz (talk) 07:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to note, that you've now exceeded 3RR but I don't notice anyone rushing to report it. Also I don't accept your edit, so please do not mischaracterise that I even partially accept it. Just an observation but describing your edit as a "better version" is a classic symptom of a POV edit.

Further, I don't accept that the article is improved by insisting that we document a list of atrocities. Thats the fundamental problem here, this is a summary article. It needs a summary overview, not a list of details. Once again I find myself explaining things again and again because you mischaracterise the issue.

List a mediation case if you like, I have a pretty good idea how it will go. Justin talk 11:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Unindent

I have not exceeded 3RR. I have edited different alternative texts trying to follow your suggestions (please check the diffs).

About the "better version" comment: if you look at the diff, it changes "several Englishmen were murdered" by "Many Englishmen were murdered by". I thought it was better for your POV, Justin, not mine (trying to make you happier with the text before going into mediation).

About lists: I don't think the article needs a list of atrocities either (and, accordingly, my version does not have one -I think). On the other hand, your version just mentions "the behaviour of British sailors" (without any further explanation) and "the murder of English and Dutch sailors". Like Ecemaml said (and saving the differences), it's like saying that NATO bombed Serbia due to "the behaviour of Serbs", without mentioning ethnic cleansing. The interpretation of the facts is not the same depending on the type of "behaviour". It should be explained (just a little bit, like 5 words or so). I don't understand why you have such strong feelings about the fact that some out of control English and Dutchmen committed those rapes-lootings-desecrations.

About Spanish atrocities: Spaniards murdered Englishmen and hid the bodies in wells and cesspits (or desecrated them, according to you), and the version I propose does not hide it. Probably, had the Spaniards had the upper hand, they would have committed more atrocities and hung all of the rapers and maybe even more unjustified acts of revenge. But... they only could (and did) stab people in the back and hide the corpses (or desecrate them, according to you).

I will list a mediation case, in the understanding that you accept mediation (that's what you meant in your post, wasn't it?) --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Your changes are nothing but adding a list of atrocities. Its a lot more than "just 5 words" when you also included the Spanish atrocities that your version suppressed. "I don't understand why you have such strong feelings about the fact that some out of control English and Dutchmen committed those rapes-lootings-desecrations." I have at one point whatsoever said that should not be mentioned in an appropriate article. I have clearly and repeatedly explained my objections and it has fuck all to do with "strong feelings". What chance does mediation have when you repeatedly mischaracterise the issue. Thats why I have said I think mediation is pointless, its because you never listen. Justin talk 13:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh and you are in breach of 3RR, you made two reverts last night and two today. That makes 4, which is the magic number. When you reverted Gibnews you breached 3RR. And if you want to work to a consensus that is usually achieved by collaborating on the talk page. You seem to think its editing to a stalemate on 3RR. Justin talk 13:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems you missed what I was doing in my last edit. I did not revert Gibnews. I wrote a new edit trying to satisfy your "request."

It would be easier if you said once and for all whether you will go for mediation or not (I wouldn't like to work preparing the case and then have you saying that you will not accept mediation for this or that reason). You just keep giving opinions about mediation ("List a mediation case if you like (...)", "I think mediation is pointless (...)") but not whether you will accept it or not. Please, I humbly beg that you say "yes" or "no" to the question "Will you accept mediation?"

Have a try, and then you'll be able to say, "Wonderful, it worked" or "See how you are unable to collaborate? You weren't able to listen even with a mediator involved! I was right and you were wrong.". ;) . --Imalbornoz (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

You won't get a yes/no answer, best you'll get is a maybe. If you misrepresent the issue again I'll simply walk away from it. I suggest you look at the edit history again, count the reverts, it was 4 within the 24 hrs. You are in material breach of 3RR. I'm not going to report a breach but if someone does you could well be blocked.

And you have a fundamental problem with understanding how wikipedia works. Its about collaborating to get a mutually acceptable happy medium. Its not about who is right or who is wrong. I'm not interested in being judged as being right but it seems that is your objective. Justin talk 15:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I have just listed a case in the Mediation Cabal here. I thought it would be good if you and Gibnews could take a look at it (and edited it in case you don't agree with its content). Basically, I think a mediator could help us structure our discussion and reach consensus on what type of facts are relevant enough to be in this article and which ones should go to the History of Gibraltar main article (but take a look yourself).

I have seen that you reverted my edit. I will not include the content that I think should be included for now (in order to help the mediation process). --Imalbornoz (talk) 18:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

As I anticipated you've asked the cabal to make a judgement, so I've struck out those comments. I've summarised our position better, you did not cover the issues. I've also suggested that the mediator clarify the use of the talk page and the need to establish a consensus before adding disputed material to an article. You never seem to listen when I've tried to explain how it works, so maybe you will to someone independent. Justin talk 19:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Justin, I understand that you have already edited the text in the MedCab case and agree with the current version. Therefore, I will delete the part where it says "(pending to be edited/approved by Justin and/or Gibnews)". Is that OK? --Imalbornoz (talk) 09:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't speak for Gibnews, you will have to speak to him yourself. But I have no issues. Justin talk 09:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

My position is clear, TAKE OUT all the detail about 'outrages' by the British sailors and the 'murders' by the defeated Spaniards as its irrelevant to the capture. Its only been included to make the British look bad (Spanish POV) and the Spanish dishonourable in defeat (British POV) None of this is mentioned in the Spanish Wikipedia article at present, although no doubt having said that it someone will now insist it is. Who did what after the surrender is immaterial to the fact that Gibraltar ceased to be Spanish in 1704. --Gibnews (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

MedCab Mediation

Okay, now that I've recovered from swine flu, I think we can begin mediating. Are all editors on this article willing to participate? Irbisgreif (talk) 19:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes - I think my position is clear enough, and continually arguing with tendentious Spanish editors who wish to impose a foreign POV detracts from creating real content. --Gibnews (talk) 20:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

My position on mediation hasn't changed. Justin talk 21:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. --Imalbornoz (talk) 21:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I am. --Ecemaml (talk) 15:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC) PS: just a kind request. Is that possible that the parties in this discussion avoid disqualifications of the rest of participants? Thank you.

Regarding your "kind request", that would indeed be lovely - provided you practise what you preach. I guess we can look forward to an absence of allegations of pro-British bias and focus on content. Sourced edits will be respected and we won't see claims that because the source is not quoted verbatim it is "not sourced". Regards, Justin talk 17:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Justin, here we're just accepting a mediation. For me, it's simply a new beginning. That's the reason I accepted an impartial mediation and thus I didn't mentioned previous discussions, since I wish to have a fresh discussion. However, one of the parties seems to accept the mediation, only to immediately violate civility guidelines (sorry to complain about being referred to a "tendentious editor", curious way of accepting a mediation). If that's the way you wish to follow the process, it's up to you. I won't fall down in provocations. If you wish to discuss about "sourced" editions, here you have my question:

Please, can you underline which part of the following paragraph:

"Although Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Habsburg Gibraltar, few decided to run the risk of remaining in the town. [..] English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline, but the inhabitants worst fears were confirmed: women were insulted and outraged; Roman Catholic churches and institutions were taken over as stores and for other military purposes [..] ; and the whole town suffered at the hands of the ship's crew and marines who came ashore. Many bloody reprisals were taken by inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain

supports your personal investigation in your edition (the sentence in bold):

In the chaos after the surrender, the behaviour of British sailors (despite the effors of their commanders to maintain order) and a fear of reprisals following the murder of English and Dutch sailors meant that few inhabitants dared to remain.

I know my English is poor, but I cannot read anything in Jackson's text similar to what you introduce (not to mention that any primary or secondary source says anything about that). It's pretty easy. Just underline the text. --Ecemaml (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess it was too much to hope for. It has been explained before, its on your talk page and I really, really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Because it is just bad faith to repeat the same question after you've already had an answer. You won't get a different answer by repeating the same question again and again. And btw that is tendentious, so the comment happens to be accurate. Tendentious arguments won't get you anywhere in mediation either. Justin talk 22:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Justin, a couple of comments:

1) "Leaving for fear of reprisals": Justin, you are right, you have repeatedly answered that question saying that it can be inferred from the text in general. We're repeating the question because we want some more evidence than "just the text in general". I am sure that if what you say can be directly inferred from the text, you will be able to find a couple of hints... Right now, I look at the text that you quote in your edit and only see one mention of the term "reprisals"... but it is Spaniards reprising on invaders, not Spaniards afraid of reprisals... Please could you give us a detailed explanation of how you infer that edit from the text? (I am eager to read your explanation respectfully and carefully).

2) "Rapes, lootings, desecrations and murders": I understand that you accept that those are historical and sourced facts, and that your only worry is about there being too much detail. You say that "the behaviour of British sailors" is enough detail, and it's not necessary to say that they behaved raping, looting and desecrating.

Given that "too much detail" can be a subjective measure, should we agree on a standard for detail? For example, you can tell me whether you think the following texts in the current article have more or less detail than the edit you have repeatedly deleted?:

• The few Spaniards who remained in Gibraltar in August 1704 were augmented by others who arrived in the fleet with Prince George of Hesse, possibly some two hundred in all, mostly Catalans
• Other groups include Minorcans (who left Minorca fearing reprisals from the Spanish Government when the island was returned to Spain in 1802 by the Treaty of Amiens)
• In May 1937, HMS Arethusa had to tow HMS Hunter into port after Hunter hit a mine off Almeria that killed and wounded several British sailors.
• In June 1937, the German pocket battleship Deutschland arrived in Gibraltar with dead and wounded after Republican planes bombed it in Ibiza in retaliation for the Condor Legion's bombing of Guernica.
• In August 1938, the Republican destroyer Jose Luis Diez took refuge in Gibraltar after taking casualties from the guns of the National cruiser Canarias.
• General Władysław Sikorski, who led Poland’s government in exile during World War II, died on 4 July 1943, when the British bomber he was in crashed into the sea after taking off from Gibraltar.
• The naval Battle of Gibraltar took place on 25 April 1607 during the Eighty Years' War when a Dutch fleet surprised and engaged a Spanish fleet anchored at the Bay of Gibraltar. During the four-hour action, the entire Spanish fleet was destroyed.

(My question: Are these milestones in Gibraltar History? Are they more or less important than the facts that led to the Spanish population leaving en masse in 1704?)

Justin, thank you very much for your attention and sorry if I have bored you. And thank you very much for answering my questions.--Imalbornoz (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Which again has already been answered. Due and proportional coverage is required for an overview article. How many times do you need questions answered? Justin talk 13:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, Justin, but it is my humble opinion that the following questions have not been answered (at least not in the course of the current mediation process):

1) Ecemaml has kindly asked you to point where in the text that -according to you- supports that Spaniards left "for fear of reprisals" does it actually say so. He has even brought the text to the discussion page for your convenience.

2) I have asked you to explain why you think that the text supports your hypothesis (more than just "it supports it, in general").

3) I have asked you to compare the importance for the History of Gibraltar and the level of detail of several parts of the current article versus the proposed edit that includes rapings-lootings-desecrations.

If these questions have already been answered, please go an extra mile and answer them again -if only for the sake of the mediator's convenience. Thank you very much in anticipation. --Imalbornoz (talk) 14:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

1. Answered on the talk page, his talk page and the mediation page.

2. Answered on the talk page, his talk page and the mediation page.

3. Answered here, directly preceding you asking the question again.

Ask again, the answer won't change and I won't be surprised.

As regards (3.), there is a bad faith implicit assumption in your question is there not? The premise of the question is false, the detail in each statement is immaterial. They are appropriate for the section of the article in which they appear. You have taken statements out of context in an attempt to prove a false assumption that I am attempting to suppress information. The reasons for rejecting your edit have been made clear to you, you have the choice of accepting them as genuine or continuing to insinuate on the basis of your false assumptions. The former can lead to a resolution, the latter nowhere. Your choice. Justin talk 15:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Its very simple, the items you list refer to the history of Gibraltar. The stuff I want removed refers to the detail of the Spaniards in Gibraltar after 1704 Gibraltar was British and they have no importance. However as you have asked for a mediator at least hear him out going on and on about it here is tedious. --Gibnews (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

A summary of where we are starting from

First off, thank you for all accepting mediation, I hope that I will be able to help.

Before we discuss where we are going, let's discuss where we are.

The portion that is in dispute is: “The majority of the Spanish population, with few exceptions, left Gibraltar. In the chaos after the surrender, the behaviour of British sailors (despite the effors of their commanders to maintain order) and a fear of reprisals following the murder of English and Dutch sailors meant that few inhabitants dared to remain. By the time order was restored and despite the assurances that Spaniards who wished to remain would enjoy freedom of religion and full civil rights, most chose to leave.”

This is what the article, at present, says. As I understand it, (correct me if I am wrong) this is the version supported by one of the “sides” here. The other “side” wants something like this: “The majority of the Spanish population, with few exceptions, left Gibraltar. In the chaos after the surrender, few inhabitants dared to remain. By the time order was restored, most chose not to return.”

So then, to get an idea of where everyone stands, add yourself to one of the following lists without comment. This is only to get an idea of who stands where, not to create consensus or to select a position. So please do not argue any more at this point. We need to go to the root of the conflict and see what it is before we can resolve the situation. Irbisgreif (talk) 20:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Nope that isn't the case, the other side wishes to list atrocities allegedly committed by the Anglo-Dutch side and at the same time remove reference to the fact that there were atrocities committed by the Spanish side. Also remove the point at which the Spanish left that order had been restored. Justin talk 21:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm trying to understand the situation. Irbisgreif (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually,the alternative version is:

"The majority of the Spanish population, with few exceptions, left Gibraltar. In spite of assurances that Spaniards who wished to remain would enjoy freedom of religion and full civil rights, and despite the efforts of British and Dutch senior officers to maintain order, lootings, desecrations and rapes were perpetrated by the ships' crew and marines. The townspeople took reprisals, murdering Dutchmen and Englishmen. When discipline was restored, most villagers decided to go in exile and, after some time, founded the nearby city of San Roque."

This one would be the longer version (it's 5 words longer). --Imalbornoz (talk) 21:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Which funnily enough is achieved by removing the fact that they received assurances they way of life would be protected. Strange how that is expunged. But then we're accused of bias and removing detail, yet our summaries manage to mention all of the salient facts. I thought you were committed to mediation, yet again apparently pushing the version you favour, ignoring the mediator. Mmmm. Justin talk 22:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, no problem. This makes it easier to see where everyone stands, so thank you. Irbisgreif (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Editors in favour of the longer version.

Imalbornoz (talk) 21:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Editors in favour of a shorter version.

--Gibnews (talk) 22:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Shorter Version

During the War of the Spanish Succession, British and Dutch troops, allies of Archduke Charles, the Austrian pretender to the Spanish Crown, formed a joint fleet and attacked various towns on the southern coast of Spain. On 4 August 1704, after six hours of bombardment starting at 5:00 am, the fleet, under the command of Admiral Sir George Rooke, assisted by Field Marshal Prince George of Hesse-Darmstadt, comprising some 1800 Dutch and British marines, captured the town of Gibraltar and claimed it in the name of the Archduke Charles. After the surrender the majority of the Spanish population left Gibraltar.

And thats enough. --Gibnews (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Are Gibnews and Imalbornoz the only two editors involved in this dispute?

If so, might I recommend a visit to WP:3O as well? That could help with the disagreements. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 23:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

No - if you read through the talk page you can see what is going on, its part of a sustained attempt by Spanish editors to insert a particular POV in the article about Gibraltar. This is opposed by a number of other editors, some of which are Gibraltarian and some not. I really don't see why this nonsense should be in the article as 305 years on. The important thing is that Gibraltar changed hands in 1704 not that Tommy went looking for women and loot and Pedro stabbed him in the back. --Gibnews (talk) 00:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Gibnews, this repeated “they are trying to POV-push” is not constructive to mediation. Not everyone views things the way you do. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 19:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The dispute derives from a Spanish POV that the 'real' inhabitants of Gibraltar were the ones who left in 1704 and only their descendants have rights over the territory. This remains the basis of the Spanish argument at the UN in 2009 to deny our rights. --Gibnews (talk) 17:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Ecemaml was also involved. I have checked his user page, and he posted on the 23rd saying he would be out for a week.

Justin A Kuntz was involved as well (but I don't know why he has not responded).

Anyway I am ready to go to WP:3O as well if you think it might be useful, what do you think? Thank you! --Imalbornoz (talk) 12:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

No, if multiple editors are involved, WP:3O is not an appropriate place to seek outside assistance. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 19:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I sometimes wonder if No has the same meaning in English and Spanish. Please read my comment above. The paragraph I have proposed eliminates any dispute over POV lets adopt it and move on. --Gibnews (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

No, there isn't just too editors involved here. I was awaiting a correction from the mediator, I pointed out that you'd failed to grasp the nexus of the dispute here. I did respond, I pointed out that the mediator had picked up on the wrong text for a start. Justin talk 09:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

New Governor

The new governor has arrived and has been installed, there may be some tidying up on wikipedia for him, I created a short article but found someone had beaten me to it. However, have added a nice pic of him with the keys symbolising his office. --Gibnews (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Gibraltar Mediation - NPOVN

I have asked WP:NPOVN to comment on the different possible article forms. Please do not comment there yourself, this is to try and get outside opinions. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 19:39, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Great, forum shopping again? Had you asked we've already been round no less than 4 separate forums already. Last time the result was that the article was fine as it is. 09:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

One good thing to do is to locate specific issues and take them to noticeboards. NPOVN can settle this issue quite easily by creating a consensus on what form is neutral without any of the arguing that has gone on here.

Also, please remember that mediation can only succeed if everyone co-operates. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 09:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

But when it becomes forum shopping its disruptive. Just for information I am considering asking for a new mediator. You have failed to grasp the nexus of the dispute and I'm not convinced the direction you're taking is useful or indeed helpful. We've already seen issues being taken to no less than 4 forums already. How many times are we going to do that? Justin talk 10:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should let Irbisgreif try this. I don't know what harm it can do.

I only have two more points to add:

• There is no discussion about the first part of the paragraph, just the part about the Spaniards leaving Gibraltar. The first part of Gibnews' proposed text is common to all of us (none of us has proposed different texts in that part). Therefore, Gibnews' differencial edit is: "After the surrender the majority of the Spanish population left Gibraltar" and nothing more (in other case, we should include all the first part of the paragraph as well in the other alternatives). Irbisgreif, could you correct that in the NPOVN, please?
• Gibnews has edited the article introducing his own text (you can see what I mean in the previous point looking at the diff). Also, I thought we had agreed that we would not edit during mediation. It would be nice if someone could restore the article, and nobody started an edit war. --Imalbornoz (talk) 21:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Mmm, you can only have an edit war if you choose to have one. I said I wouldn't edit and I won't but I'm not sure that Gibnews agreed to any restrictions. I'm losing confidence in a mediator who can't take the time to understand the dispute he is supposedly mediating. We've already been round the buoy at the NPOVN, what good will covering the same ground again do. I also fail to see how an opinion by people who don't know history of Gibraltar can help. Justin talk 22:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Ending Mediation

Unfortunately one editor has decided to unilaterally end mediation, and another is now stating he no longer has confidence in the process. Therefore, I have no choice but to end medcab mediation. I hope all those editing this page can resolve this dispute. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 06:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No that is not the case, I expressed a lack of confidence in your ability to mediate, seeing as you utterly failed to grasp the dispute. I said I was thinking of asking for an alternate mediator. Perhaps you should rethink whether you have the skills to undertake mediation. Justin talk 08:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

[21] Request to re-open the case. Justin talk 09:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I understood the issue quite well, thank you. Regardless of your opinions, Gibnews is no longer interested in mediation. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 10:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No, you singularly failed to grasp the issues. And if you cannot accept constructive criticism, then really you're not cut out to be a mediator. Justin talk 10:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The whole thing has been an enormous waste of time and energy, the article is now historically correct and NPOV and I suggest we all find something more useful to do than argue about it endlessly. --Gibnews (talk) 09:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

As long as this is not "Gibnewspedia" it is not only your opinion that counts. I don't agree that the article is OK now (and when Ecemaml returns from his absence he probably won't, either). So we have a problem to solve. I should add that I don't think it is OK to edit an article when other editors have agreed to stop editing and accept mediation. You have significantly disturbed the mediation process. I will not restore the article myself, for the sake of the mediation process, but I wanted you to know my opinion. (BTW, has this aborted mediation really consumed an "enormous" waste of time and energy? Come on...)

Justin, thanks for requesting a new mediator. --Imalbornoz (talk) 13:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

All, repeat after me, focus on content, not the editor. Justin talk 13:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

It may have been because our mediator has never done this before, but the process failed to get anywhere or achieve anything, and after referring it to NPOVN there was only one comment which supported the version which is now in place.

In the time wasted here arguing about this, we could have all added to the knowledge base in Wikipedia. The section is now accurate and NPOV. The important thing for a general article about Gibraltar is that it ceased to be occupied by Spain in 1704.

If you really want to go into details, visit the archive in San Roque and write an new article about what is there. But it would be about the history of Spain not Gibraltar. There are many more interesting topics about Gibraltar to create articles describing things which have nothing to do with Spain. I hope to concentrate on that. --Gibnews (talk) 16:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Imalbornoz seems to have a knack at piquing fellow editors and leaving them no other option but to take a break from Wikipedia. The mediator is his latest victim. [22] RedCoat10 • talk 18:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Being fair I got the blame for that for suggesting that he wasn't experienced enough. Justin talk 22:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

All he did was refer it to WP:NPOVN who supported the concise version which is now in place. I'd support another mediator if its considered worth the effort AND the mediator actually took some responsibility and understood the issues. But the starting point is clearer now. --Gibnews (talk) 11:12, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

Hello, I see that the request for mediation has been relisted after the previous attempt at informal mediation has failed. I wanted to see if there is still interest in continuing the mediation with a different mediator. If anyone has interest or questions, ask them here or at my talk page. Thank you. -- Atama頭 16:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

No problems from me, welcome aboard. Justin talk 16:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I am still interested in mediation. Thanks for your interest. --Imalbornoz (talk) 22:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

My position is as stated above. --Gibnews (talk) 23:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can promise to do my best to get to the heart of the issue, that's all I can do. The last mediation I assisted with lasted for a long time and was fairly productive until one of the two participants was indefinitely blocked. It was a very tricky discussion on a controversial subject so I have some experience with delicate topics. Gibnews, if you and Ecemaml are amenable I'll try to sum up in my words what I feel the issues are that need discussion, and then ask for comment. Just to state, up-front, I don't plan on becoming a direct participant in the article's content. I'm not here to offer another opinion, but to help clarify everyone else's opinions and help find compromises. Though I will make suggestions now and then if necessary. Thank you. -- Atama頭 00:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The actual dispute here is not actually that large, although what is behind it is something which neither you nor wikipedia will resolve. The question here is how much detail of the capture is appropriate in the main article about Gibraltar. Some Spanish people wish to believe that Spain never surrendered Gibraltar at all, either in 1704 or 1713, and whatever is in the Gibraltar article will be picked up and repeated in other places. So it needs to be factually correct, NPOV, and concise. --Gibnews (talk) 10:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Gibnews that the article needs to be factually correct, NPOV, and concise. I should add that it needs to cover all noteworthy facts with some level of consistency.

I see that the article covers with great detail issues such as the relocation of Jews between Cordoba and Gibraltar and some battle between the Dutch and the Spanish navy that just happened to take place ***in front of Gibraltar*** (in fact those two are the only facts covered in the "Spanish period").

The article also covers with great detail events such as some Polish general disappearing in an aviation accident in WWII ***after taking off from Gibraltar*** (that's the only relation with Gibraltar) or that one boat + another boat + another boat (separate accounts for each one) came to be repaired to Gibraltar in the Spanish Civil War or that an important marina and hotel are being developed in the Eastside...

The fact that almost all Spanish Gibraltarians left in 1704 and gave way to a British period is a pivotal event in Gibraltar's history; as important -at least- as any of those events above. Most published works about Gibraltar dedicate an important amount of pages to the specific events happening during those days (not surprisingly).

I believe that suppressing those events and admitting other less important ones is an inconsistency that results in non-NPOV. Some editors want to suppress the details of the exodus of previous Gibraltarians and are not worried about MANY other details along the article. Two editors (Ecemaml and myself) believe that this should be corrected. That is my view of this dispute.

For Atama's info: Justin seemed to be happy with a previous edit, myself (and I think Ecemaml) was happy with this one (only 5 words longer than Justin's, although -according to him, as he thinks it does not cover with same detail Spanish atrocities as Anglo-Dutch ones- non-NPOV) and Gibnews is obviously happy with the current version (which he edited just before the end of the previous mediation).

I think that an external view of the issues under discussion can be very interesting. Thanks. --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Mediation will go nowhere if you persist in repeating the same false assertion, your version is "only" 5 words longer when you strip out certain facts your POV find embarassing. Nor will it go anywhere whilst you persist in personal attacks that anyone not accepting your suggestions is "suppressing" the truth. Justin talk 17:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Imalbornoz, what part of "I'm not here to offer another opinion" don't you understand? You will not get "an external view of the issues". The mediator's job is to help you, Gibnews, Justin et al. work together and ultimately reach a consensus, not offer another view or arbitrate. RedCoat10 • talk 18:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Lets get one thing clear - the Spanish inhabitants of Gibraltar were NOT Gibraltarians, the term was coined later and Gibraltarians are by definition British.

There could be many reasons why they moved to San Roque, but that Spaniards move around in Spain is not a topic pertinent to an article on Gibraltar;

However, Gibraltar was a very unpopular place to be and many of its Spanish inhabitants were here against their will and needed no excuse to leave. San Roque was a more healthy place to be - indeed in the past the population of Gibraltar moved there to avoid diseases endemic in Gibraltar. Until such time as the water supply was improved, Gibraltar was a most unhealthy place to live, on one occasion 2/3 of the population died from disease. In their attempt to retake Gibraltar, the Spanish levelled most of the town with cannon fire and such an attack and the seiges could be anticipated and frankly doing a runner to cosy San Roque with clean water and agricultural land and no cannon fire was a very smart move.

But really none of that is appropriate to detail in an article about Gibraltar. I note in another wikipedia, they have a rule which says that Unproductive activity, such as 90% talk page edits and only 10% quality edits to articles, may result in blocking of the account. This discussion is a good example of the benefits of that view. --Gibnews (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

(←) Ecemaml agreed to the mediation so what I will do next is to review the dispute as best as I can, and then try to dissect and summarize it so that we can discuss "the heart of the matter" as was said before. I expect to have something for Monday. Thank you. -- Atama頭 06:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Could you perhaps do me a favour and explain the purpose of the talk page and the need to establish consensus before trying to add a disputed edit to an article. Thanks. Justin talk 15:46, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

RedCoat, with "an external view of the issues under discussion can be very interesting" I was agreeing with Atama's proposal in "I'll try to sum up in my words what I feel the issues are that need discussion"; I think I could understand Atama's comment "I'm not hear to offer another opinion." Thank you, anyway, for your interest. Justin and Gibnews, I will wait for Atama's summary and then I will focus my comments on the content of the article. Discussing the issues at hand is hard enough; I don't think we should also discuss on who has the right to be called Gibraltarian, how lucky previous Gibraltarians -or whatever they were called before their exodus- were when the British invasion gave them the idea to get to San Roque, the purpose of the talk page, or the convenience of blocking certain users. If we keep introducing those issues in the discussion, it's going to be really hard to get somewhere. --Imalbornoz (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I see it was you that brought up 'Spanish Gibraltarians' which is an oxymoron, and you who said there was no explanation of why the Spanish inhabitants of Gibraltar chose to leave. As you seem to be unaware of the history I've explained the background of WHY the Spanish left.

The main article does not mention the former Moorish inhabitants who were all killed by the Spanish invaders. The discussion here is simply on whether we go into the detail of misbehaviour by Sailors and murders by Spaniards in breach of the surrender or we leave it as it is. Sadly I fear you want to argue about more at great length. Those things that are in the article are there because they inform people about Gibraltar and answer questions people have about the place.

There are two lines about Władysław Sikorski whose death had an impact on postwar Europe and there is a large memorial in Gibraltar erected to him. There is no memorial to de Salinas. The Eastside development represents a major expansion of the territory - one which Spain whines on about in the EU. These are more noteworthy matters than 18th century asylum seekers.

PS: There are now some 20,000 words on this page about this, and more scattered around various parts of wikipedia. --Gibnews (talk) 20:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Gibnews, I've hesitated a bit before responding, but in the end I thought that things should be put straight:

• Just for the record, I have not seen ONE source supporting your original explanation of WHY Spaniards left Gibraltar (the first time I thought it was a joke, really, but now I see that you insist...) I don't know why you talk about this.
• Also, I don't know why you talk about Moorish inhabitants being killed by Spanish invaders or where you may have got that peculiar assertion from (I don't want to believe that you just made it up).
• It is also very peculiar to think that an anecdotal aviation accident of one WWII Polish exile leader (which is not even mentioned in the main article about Poland) is more important than the destiny of almost all the inhabitants of Gibraltar at a given time (several thousand people) which completely changed the history of your hometown, or to suggest that memorials in present day Gibraltar should be the standard to evaluate the importance of historical events (Wikipedia should not be a tourist guide, I believe).

I am afraid all of this does not add much much value to the discussion. Please, let's be serious. Let's make an effort to talk about verifiable facts and try to use some consistent criteria to evaluate the noteworthiness of topics covered in the article. --Imalbornoz (talk) 17:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Look will you just stop being utterly ridiculous. The 2, YES 2, LINES, dedicated to the leader of Poland in exile, is NOT saying it is more important. Its DUE COVERAGE of the incident, just as the PARAGRAPH dedicated to 1704 is DUE COVERAGE in what is an OVERVIEW article. The more ridiculous hyperbole you employ, all the more rodiculous your arguments become. There comes a point where good faith is simply exhausted. You take about "let's be serious" but your arguments aren't. Justin talk 19:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Justin, I understand what you say that Sikorski has DUE COVERAGE. In fact, I don't complain about that coverage. I agree with you that Sikorski just has 1 and a 1/2 lines (34 words), not a lot.

What I complain about is that, on the other hand, the destiny of the thousands of previous Gibraltarians (which changed the history of Gibraltar) has only got 1/2 a line (11 words). Therefore, Sikorski (a Polish leader in exile) has three times the coverage of the exodus of almost all previous Spanish Gibraltarians (several thousands).

By comparing them, I am trying to find some common criteria so that we can agree what is due coverage. Would you agree that events with more impact in the history of Gibraltar deserve more coverage and less relevant events deserve less coverage? --Imalbornoz (talk) 11:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't, it has an entire Paragraph dedicated to it. You take one sentence out of it to draw a ridiculous comparison. To be correct, one sentence out of a Paragraph has 11 words, the Paragraph itself has 100. Justin talk 12:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The paragraph has nearly 100 words about the military capture of Gibraltar. I am talking about what happened to the previous Gibraltarians. Does it deserve only 11 words? It is -on a different scale- like giving 90% coverage to the military conquest by Romans of Judea, not saying anything about the destruction of the Temple, the abuses on the population and the subsequent Jewish diaspora and just say instead "After the surrender the majority of the Jewish population left Judea." Would it be justified to demand more coverage to whatever happened to the inhabitants previous to the departure and where did they go? Or would it not be relevant enough? What do historians usually do? What does Wikipedia do in the case of Judea? --Imalbornoz (talk) 17:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The word Gibraltarian has a defined legal meaning and no people called that existed in 1704. The Spaniards living in Gibraltar moved to San Roque and Los Barrios to escape future sieges. It was a very smart move. What Spaniards do in Spain is the history of Spain. Gibraltar is not Spain. --Gibnews (talk) 21:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

1. The fact that someone has not seen anything about the history of Gibraltar does not come as a surprise, and indeed much of what is circulated in Spain about Gibraltar is mere propaganda with no factual basis. However as I live in Gibraltar and take an interest in such things, buy books and read. Indeed I recently bought Fernando Castiella's tome.

2. Gibraltar has been subject to successive invasions, starting with the Neandathals. You may not be aware of the history of Spain, but when Gibraltar was captured from the muslims, they were all killed. That was the way things were done at the time.

3. Władysław Sikorski - an an anecdotal aviation accident of one WWII Polish exile leader Heavens - why not click on the link and read the Wikipedia article, you would learn why you are so wrong, and interesting facts like his plane crashed 16 seconds after takeoff, ie in Gibraltar waters. The controversy over his death involved his body recently being exhumed. apart from having his own page, his picture is shown on History of Poland (1939–1945)

But this is a talk page about the article on Gibraltar, not a forum and apart from item 3 which merits two lines, the other items are not significant enough for inclusion - that does not mean they are untrue, or that there are not references available to justify them. I'm not inclined to respond further as I begin to think this is a wind up. --Gibnews (talk) 22:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Summary of the dispute (mediation)

I'd like to start out with a quick reminder of the purpose of mediation. Mediation is meant to help editors reach a consensus during a content dispute. Any claims of bias, misconduct, personal attacks, etc. aren't relevant to the discussion. I'm not an administrator and I can't perform any blocks, topic bans, or sanctions.

Specifically, I'd like to help settle the dispute regarding the small section of the article titled "The British period", and the departure of the Spanish inhabitants of the region following the events of August 4, 1704. I've read over the information written on this talk page and at the mediation request, and I believe I see three different proposals for the section.

• One proposal, seen here would detail the actions of the British and Dutch sailors against the inhabitants of Gibraltar, leading to reprisals and the eventual departure of the Spanish. Imalbornoz and Ecemaml favor this version.
• Another proposal, seen here gives less detail, but essentially says the same thing as the previous proposal; the only major difference is that the specific actions of the sailors aren't listed. This is the version favored by Justin.
• A final proposal, seen in the current version of the article, is to only mention the departure of the Spanish in passing, and leave the details to the History of Gibraltar article. This is the version favored by Gibnews.

Aside from accusations of bias and misconduct (including nationalist advocacy), and further reasons for including one particular version over another, is there any more to this particular dispute that I have missed? Please let me know, thank you. -- Atama頭 19:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems a pretty good summary. I have an objection, however to Justin's version, as I've explained previously. Even if the version I advocate for is eventually dismissed, Justin's version includes personal investigation (the sentence "... and a fear of reprisals following the murder of English and Dutch sailors...") not supported by any secondary source that in any way must be removed. Best regards and thank you for your time and effort, Atama --Ecemaml (talk) 20:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC) PS: I've been out for more than a week. I felt the situation was becoming quite stressful for me. Sorry for the delay. Atama, don't hesitate to warn me if I use ad hominem argumentation... it's not always easy to take part in these hot discussions.

No that is not the case, its a summary from several sources. We do not have to repeat the exact words verbatim as the source. Your argument is specious. The proposal received support from numerous editors when I suggested it; all agreed it reflected the sources. This has been discussed time and time again, the same argument is repeated in response ad nauseum. Things will go nowhere if the same specious argument continues to be repeated. Returning to re-iterate the same tired worn argument, long after it has been rebutted is not only tedious but it is also disruptive.

You have also missed one of my objections to the first edit, in that in shoe horning a list of atrocities into the article is achieved by neglecting other details. Specifically strangely enough the reassurances that the way of life of the Spanish would be respected and at the point the Spanish left order had been restored. Justin talk 21:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

An additional point I'd like to highlight is the one related to secondary sources (quoted here).

The first issue I'd like to discuss is that an a priori dismissal of sources because of the nationality of the author is definitely wrong. Dismissing Spanish literature on the issue just because it's Spanish is as valid as dismissing British sources. At the end of the day possibly both suffer from a conflict of interests (and, from a wikipedist point of view, the Spanish point of view is as valid as any other one, provided that it is clearly identified and is given proper height). Each source must be analyzed according to its merits. The only remaining issue I'd like to discuss is that related to the British sources (those authored by British nationals). There are two classic sources, The Rock of Contention, by George Hills, and the Rock of Gibraltarians, by William Jackson. The first one has been dismissed over the course of the discussion on the grounds of him having written a biography of the Spanish dictator, Francisco Franco. However, such fact is only significant if a proper secondary source establishes that Hill's work on Gibraltar is biased in any way. It does not mean that Hills' work must be taken as a Bible. Only that it has to be given proper credit. With regard to the episode we're discussing on, Hills takes two primary sources: Ayala's book (which, as I've previously described, is the only source that quotes verbatim the work of Figueroa, the Catholic priest that was an eye witness of the takeover; such work disappeared during the Peninsular Wars) and Rev. Pocock account of the takeover (Pocock was the Protestant chaplain of Byng).

The interesting point here is that Jackson's description of the episode takes as source not only Ayala's, but also Hills work! So, if the former gobernor of Gibraltar takes Hills work (at least in this episode) as a valid source, why should we dismiss it? My 0.02€ Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 21:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Whoa, I object most strongly to the bad faith accusation here. Where have I ever dismissed a source because it was Spanish? This is absolutely bloody outrageous, bringing this totally out of left field. How the hell do you expect a mediator to go forward if you're going to bandy about the most outrageous and utterly unfounded accusations. Justin talk 21:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Justin, glad to listen to your statement. I just read a paragraph above saying "much of what is circulated in Spain about Gibraltar is mere propaganda with no factual basis". --Ecemaml (talk) 14:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Much of what is circulated in Spain about Gibraltar is indeed mere propaganda - but that's someone's personal observation, not a dismissal of a source because it was Spanish. It's the dismissal of a source because its propaganda. In the future, please refrain from making such bad faith accusations and/or twisting people's words. RedCoat10 • talk 14:40, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not twisting anyone's words. I've just seen a generic statement about "mcuh of what is circulated in Spain about Gibraltar". Possibly avoiding such "good faith" statements would be good for all of us. Moreover, to dismiss anything as "propaganda", solid sources stating that (not your or my opinion, or dubious comparisons as that of Speer) are needed. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Please consider revising your remarks about editors wanting to suppress sources on the basis of nationality. I also don't understand your last sentence. Are you asking for a source to prove that another source is propaganda? Because if you are, it's not necessary (and plain silly): citations are only needed to cite material in Wikipedia articles, not other sources. By analogy, it would be like describing Jews as evil and using Mein Kampf as a reference, then asking for another reference to prove that the source is not propaganda. That's not how WP:RS works. For a source to be reliable, it must be "credible" and its author must generally be "regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". RedCoat10 • talk 17:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Jackson, 'The Rock of the Gibraltarians' P101 says Many bloody reprisals were taken by the inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was restored few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain primary source given as Ayala p143-148. Note the word dared.

Hills is a secondary source. To suggest that simply because he was Spanish and a close friend of Franco he was biased is of course arguable. I'm currently reading a book by Albert Speer who says Hitler was a wonderful man. But I am not dismissing Hills, however he cannot be described as a British source.

However, the point of the argument here is NOT whether to include these details but simply whether its appropriate to include them in the main article on Gibraltar. By all means lets have more detail in the history of Gibraltar article, but the important thing is simply that the Spanish lost and left.

Finally, given the severe shortage of water in Gibraltar, a problem not solved until the installation of desalination plant in the 1980's that the Spanish threw bodies down their wells rather indicates they had made up their minds to leave. --Gibnews (talk) 21:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Gibnews, you appropriately quote the sentence "Many bloody reprisals were taken by the inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was restored few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain" and next you highligh the word "dared". However, you miss the previous sentence: "English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline, but the inhabitants worst fears were confirmed: women were insulted and outraged; Roman Catholic churches and institutions were taken over as stores and for other military purposes (except for the Cathedral of Saint Mary the Crowned that was protected successfully by its staunch vicar, Juan Romero, his curate, and his bell-ringer); and the whole town suffered at the hands of the ship's crew and marines who came ashore." Again, where does Jackson says that Gibraltarians left the city because of the fear of reprisals (possibly my English is quite worse than yours but I cannot read Justin's deduction anywhere). Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 14:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Before this gets ugly, can we just agree on all sides that no sources are going to be dismissed simply because they are Spanish, British, or from some other nation/state/language? Let's not accuse anyone of taking that stance from this point on.

Maybe the first thing that should be determined before getting into details of the text would be Gibnews's proposal. It is radically different from the others, and if agreed upon would make other arguments moot because there would be no details to debate. WP:SS covers summary styles which says that sections that would be too long in an article should be split into their own article, which has already been done. The section would then be a summary of the full article, which has also been done. Details that aren't critical to the Gibraltar article itself certainly can be left out if the other article covers that information. Whether or not they should is of course up to the discretion of editors (which is why we're here).

Does anyone feel that the History of Gibraltar article doesn't adequately cover this information, or isn't accurate? I hate to bring this up as it is almost off-topic from this discussion, but if there is a dispute already about that article, it should be resolved before attempting to modify the section in this article because this article should only summarize what is in the "history" article. -- Atama頭 22:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

For information I don't object to Gibnews' version, I prefer it in fact, my prose was an attempt to accommodate certain sensibilities whilst being fair and neutral to both sides. It was an attempt to summarise succinctly a number of points. I actually agree that the History of Gibraltar is the place for such detailed information.

And to reiterate again no one has said sources should be dismissed on the basis of nationality. Its a baseless accusation. Justin talk 22:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Likewise I am not dismissing Hills, but simply pointing he was not really a 'British source'. His tendentious book was published in 1974.

As regards The History of Gibraltar there are 250 or so words specifically about the departure of the Spanish which I think is adequate. Its also described in more detail in San Roque, Cádiz with quotes from Jackson's book. --Gibnews (talk) 23:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Hills was a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society (not a Franco minister as you suggests). Should we get rid of a work of a professional British historian just because a wikipedian does not like him? Therefore, which sources you take to determine he is not British or wrote a tendentious book. Is Jackson British? How could he take a tendentious work as source? Is the result tendentious? --Ecemaml (talk) 14:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that, however he was half Spanish and sympathetic to Franco - I wonder if his book about that sells well in Spain and is respected as an accurate account? However this is a red herring to distract from the argument about whether to include minor details about the events prior to the Spaniards running away from a future conflict. --Gibnews (talk) 16:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that no sources should be dismissed because of their nationality.

Regarding Gibnews' proposal, I have to say that it leaves out some facts that are much more relevant to the History of Gibraltar than many others which have been included (and are not under discussion). I think that, if the article is to be consistent, those facts should not be left out. Otherwise, that inconsistency might result in a biased article. --Imalbornoz (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What specifically is being left out? Are you referring to the reasons for the departure of the Spanish, or some other details? -- Atama頭 00:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am referring:

1) to the events that happened between the surrender of the town and the exodus of the inhabitants of Gibraltar: According to the sources, all churches except one were desecrated and looted, the whole town was sacked, some women were raped and some Spaniards murdered some Dutchmen and Englishmen in retaliation. All that turmoil is considered by some (if not all) sources as the reason for the Spanish to leave.

and 2) to the fact that almost all the Gibraltarians of that time did not simply vanish in the air: according to all the sources, almost all of them left in exile and founded a town nearby called San Roque shortly afterwards. --Imalbornoz (talk) 10:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Which if you insist on including tips the balance of POV in the article. It omits the fact that the British and Dutch gave assurances that their way of life of the inhabitants would be respected, that they would enjoy freedom religion, that at the time the Spanish left order had been restored and that the perpetrators of those crimes had been punished. Also as Gibnews has pointed out elsewhere it was a pretty miserable place to live. It presents a one sided view as to why they left. That is why I object to it. If we include all of those details the article becomes unbalanced, whereby an article that is already acknowledged as too big according to guidelines has an overly detailed section of a small (but admittedly important) section of history. Justin talk 11:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I find repeated references to the Spanish inhabitants as 'Gibraltarians' when it has been explained why they were not to be very offensive. and the 'whole town' was not sacked, a few sailors got drunk and went on the rampage on the first day and then were brought under control. --Gibnews (talk)

Gibnews, I am sorry that applying the term "Gibraltarians" to the inhabitants of Gibraltar during the Spanish period may offend you. But it is an accurate term. They were native or inhabitants -many of them for generations- of Gibraltar -which already existed as an administrative entity called "Gibraltar" since centuries before the capture- so I guess we can call them Gibraltarians, according to the dictionary. --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

None of the accounts refer to the Spanish inhabitants of Gibraltar as anything other than that. Your use of the term is simply to assert that a lost tribe of Gibraltarians was forced out to live in the hills. It part of the rubbish that Spain dredges up to deny Gibraltarians the right to OUR land and shows you have a lack good faith. --Gibnews (talk) 16:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The whole town was not sacked, that's right. Just all the churches and religious buildings. It was against the wishes and orders of the officials, but it happens. Therefore I can't see any reason to omit both fact. What's wrong with it? I must say that POV is not balance when there is no balance in the facts. Should I ask for the removal of the mentions to the block of Gibraltar by the Spanish dictator in the 20th century just because there is no balance in the description of the history of Gibraltar? --Ecemaml (talk) 14:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC) PD: on the other hand, it's not Gibnews the one who has to argument that Gibraltar was a pretty miserable place to live (it's again his personal investigation). Are there secondary sources stating it was a more miserable place to live than, for instance, Algeciras or San Roque? Why didn't Gibraltar inhabitants left before? It seems as if the English troops made them a favour ;-) PD2: finally, Justin has stated that "If we include all of those details the article becomes unbalanced, whereby an article that is already acknowledged as too big according to guidelines has an overly detailed section of a small (but admittedly important) section of history." If I propose a short version convering all the significant facts, would he accept it? Wouldn't be a more acceptable option even if slightly unbalanced (with regard to length) than omitting key points (not to mention current personal investigation not supported by secondary sources)?

Finally, with regard to Gibnews proposal, I strongly object. Removing such points on the grounds of length results in a POV version (the current one I must say). Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 14:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC) PD: I'm adding a {{disputed}} template to the section since, as I've explained several times, it includes a sentence that is not supported by any secondary source.

Suggest you read the books more - not all the religious buildings were trashed. The town was not 'sacked' you are playing it up - Nor does it have any particular significance or importance in relation to the Spaniards leaving.

Yes, there are sources saying Gibraltar was a miserable place to be in, and that Spain had to force people to reside here, by for instance, absolving them of crimes elsewhere. You need to read more and rant less. --Gibnews (talk) 16:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Gibnews for your advice. However, I prefer reading by myself instead of trusting other people interpretation. As you know, all the religious buildings but one were desecrated and sacked. On the other hand you have said "Nor does it have any particular significance or importance in relation to the Spaniards leaving" . However, Jackson states: "English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline, but the inhabitants worst fears were confirmed: women were insulted and outraged; Roman Catholic churches and institutions were taken over as stores and for other military purposes (except for the Cathedral of Saint Mary the Crowned that was protected successfully by its staunch vicar, Juan Romero, his curate, and his bell-ringer); and the whole town suffered at the hands of the ship's crew and marines who came ashore. Many bloody reprisals were taken by the inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was restored few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain". A solid source not yet dismissed (I could talk about his pro-British bias but that's other issue) states that such facts had strong importance in relation to the Spaniards leaving, but we should prefer, instead of following the wikipedia principles, the opinion of a wikipedian.... Well, in such conditions is difficult to come to a conclusion. On the other hand, please, provide a source stating that Gibraltar was a miserable place to live... in 1704. You know, Australia required convicts to be populated, but in my last visits to the island-continent I seriously considered to apply for living in there... Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 16:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Taking over churches for storage is quite a different thing to sacking them, and just how many churches apart from the cathedral would there have been for 4000 inhabitants. With a population of 28,000 today there are seven including the shrine.

As i have said previously Gibraltar was a miserable and unhealthy place to live in until the water supply was sorted out

The Yellow Fever scourge

In 1805 tragedy in the form of a yellow fever epidemic struck Gibraltar killing over one third of the civilian population. A second epidemic struck ten years later. Doubt has been cast on whether it really was Yellow fever which is transmitted by a fly, or a water borne infection. As the main water supply at the time drained through the graveyard at red sands, it was a recipe for trouble. Was San Roque any better? Most certainly. But the arrival of clean drinking water is a whole story by itself. Interestingly enough smallpox was first identified from someone who died from it in Gibraltar. --Gibnews (talk) 17:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Please don't derail this discussion with complaints about nationalism. For the sake of this discussion, let's just call the inhabitants of Gibraltar prior to the British takeover "Spanish", since nobody disputes that fact, whether or not calling them "Gibraltarians" is accurate. And let's not talk about Spanish "rubbish" or other motives that editors might have, let's focus on the content, please?

Now I'm curious about Ecemaml's concern about POV. It is possible for NPOV to be breached through omission. Simply saying that Mahatma Ghandi was a troublemaker who caused numerous problems for the British is accurate, but by avoiding details of what he did and why gives a negative POV. So if this article is doing something similar, I can understand this complaint. I just don't really see what that POV is in this case, maybe Ecemaml can explain.

Also, I would like to know what Justin and Gibnews think about the possibility of expanding the information in the article a bit more, showing the "misbehaviour" of both sides which made Gibraltar a less-attractive place to live. If there's at least a potential for that being acceptable, then I'm sure that the specific text of that expansion can be worked out through compromise. -- Atama頭 17:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I too don't believe that omitting the details results in a POV version, as Ecemaml asserted. I'm starting to believe that the acronym 'POV' is being bandied about by certain users as a substitute for anything that presents the British in a favourable light or the Spanish in an unfavourable light. A POV (point-of-view) refers to the perspective from which something is written. For the record, I don't support the possibility of expanding the information, per Justin and Gibnews. RedCoat10 • talk 17:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

"I'm starting to believe that the acronym 'POV' is being bandied about by certain users as a substitute for anything that presents the British in a favourable light or the Spanish in an unfavourable light." Making such a declaration, especially prior to Ecemaml's explanation for the claim of a POV omission, isn't going to be productive here. -- Atama頭 18:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily agree. While it is not an opinion I hold at the moment (or would like to believe were true), I think it may well prompt a reply that clarifies his/her rationale and debunk what is, IMHO, very much the elephant in the room. RedCoat10 • talk 18:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd rather not encourage that elephant by feeding it any peanuts. It might get excited and start smashing up the place. Let it sit there for now. :) -- Atama頭 18:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. RedCoat10 • talk 18:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

First, to support Ecemaml's point about the content of the article: The town was sacked (maybe not each and every home, but a portion of them significant enough to be mentioned by several sources) as well as all the churches but one (and that one was not sacked because it was defended by its curate, not because the invaders did not try to loot it). Also, many (Spanish and English) sources consider the atrocities noteworthy enough to mention them. Just a few examples:

"Such was the behaviour not only of the men but their officers that the worst fears of the population were confirmed. There were 'disorders involving persons of the weaker sex with gave rise to secret bloody acts of vengeance'. In consequence, 'the vanquished deprived many of life and threw the corpses in wells and cesspools. (...) Accordingly, when the garrison and City Council marched out on 7 August under the terms of surrender, all but 70 of the inhabitants of the 1,200 houses in the city took what they could carry of what had not yet been plundered, and then filed through the gate towards the ruins of ancient Carteia." George Hills (1974). Rock of Contention. A History of Gibraltar. London: Robert Hale. pp. 173-174. ISBN 0-7091-4352-4

"Después del fuego devastador, asaltada al fin la ciudad, sin la mayor parte de sus defensas y con soldados ingleses en sus calles, la confusión se adueñó de la población y se hizo presente la sed de botín y venganza de los soldados. El hecho más grave (un "desafortunado incidente" para la historiografía inglesa) fue el ataque a la población refugiada en la ermita de la Virgen de Europa, donde habían encontrado cobijo mujeres y niños, portando las pertenencias más valiosas de sus hogares; al igual que sucedió en los pueblos aledaños a Cádiz dos años antes, la soldadesca se entregó a la profanación y saqueo del templo, al robo de todos los objetos de valor de los refugiados y, lo más grave, a la vejación y violación de algunas mujeres."

"After the devastating fire, the town was finally assaulted, lacking a great portion of its defenses and with English soldiers in its streets, confusion took hold of the population and the soldiers' thirst for booty and revenge became evident. The most serious incident (a "misfortuned incident" according to English historiography) was the attack on the population taking refuge in the chapel of the Virgin of Europe, where women and children had taken cover, carrying their homes' most valuable belongings; just like what happened in the villages near Cadiz two years before, the military gave themselves to profanation and sacking of the temple, the looting of all the valuable objects of the refugees, and, worst of all, the vexation and raping of some women." Sepúlveda, Isidro (2004). Gibraltar. La razón y la fuerza (Gibraltar. The reason and the force). in Spanish. Madrid: Alianza Editorial. pp. 89-91. ISBN 84-206-4184-7. Chapter 2, "La lucha por Gibraltar" (The Struggle for Gibraltar) (quickly translated by myself).

"The conquerors were out of control. (…)Into the raw hands of fighting seamen (…) alcohol and plunder and women passed wildly and indiscriminately. (…)The sack of Gibraltar was memorable through Andalusia for the peculiar fury of the invaders against the servants, houses and ornaments of the Catholic religion. (…) Every church in the city was desecrated save one." Andrews, Allen, Proud Fortress The Fighting Story Of Gibraltar

"(...) women were insulted and outraged; Roman Catholic churches and institutions were taken over as stores and for other military purposes (except for the Cathedral of Saint Mary the Crowned that was protected successfully by its staunch vicar, Juan Romero, his curate, and his bell-ringer); and the whole town suffered at the hands of the ship's crew and marines who came ashore. Many bloody reprisals were taken by inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain." Jackson, William (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (2nd ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, UK: Gibraltar Books. pp. 100-101. ISBN 0-948466-14-6 ("outraged" is an euphemism for "raped", as I have proved elsewhere[23][24][25]; "bloody reprisals" is also an euphemism for "murders in retaliation")

Second, I insist that we should compare the noteworthiness of these events vis a vis other events mentioned in the History section and in the rest of the article. If we find many examples of events with less impact on Gibraltar's history, it would only be consistent and fair to include the aforementioned events in the main article. Otherwise, it could be suspected that the article is favouring the mention of certain events versus other ones for reasons other than their noteworthiness (don't worry, I don't think we should discuss those motives or reasons, just the consistency of the article). --Imalbornoz (talk) 18:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I think insisting is a really bad idea. The main article on Gibraltar is getting to be quite comprehensive and balanced 'as is'. Adding contentious technicolor material from secondary sources will not improve it. Certainly not for the main article. --Gibnews (talk) 21:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Would you agree with expanding the article as Ecemaml suggested, provided that it is still kept short and balanced and if the text is discussed prior to it being added? I would expect that it could be confined to a single sentence. -- Atama頭 21:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I would be interested in seeing such a sentence. Given the present rate of progress, we could run to another 20,000 words disagreeing it. It sounds like its just the thin edge of a wedge seeking to dictate what is in main article. --Gibnews (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Atama actually hits the nail on the head and asks a relevant question, one I have asked previously without receiving a response. What exactly is POV about the current version? I note the response is simply to list a bunch of quotes that are portraying the British as a foul bunch of bastards. Noticeably the points I raised earlier are ignored. Yet also there isn't actually an answer to the question.

In answer to Atama's question directed toward Gibnews and myself, I would be willing to consider adding some more details, providing it was balanced and short. My issue with Ecemaml and Imalbornoz's preferred prose is that it is highly one sided. My prose was an attempt to accommodate what they requested yet remain balanced toward both sides. As I've demonstrated, to be balanced certain key information is required, something that they are not keen to respect and I note that Ecemaml has chosen to continue with a specious criticism based on the absurd notion that we have to use exactly the same words as the source. Imalbornoz repeatedly claims there is only 5 words difference but that is only achieved by removing key information.

I also notice I'm one of the few calling for a focus on content and not editors. And to be honest Redcoat10's remarks about the elephant in the room chime with my own suspicions. Lets hope I'm wrong. Justin talk 22:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Before we get into what Gibnews calls the "20,000 words disagreeing" about a potential expansion of the article, I'd like to break in with a reminder of what's at stake here. This isn't a discussion of what is and isn't included in Wikipedia. Everything that everyone has asked for, and more, is (or should be) represented quite well at History of Gibraltar. What we are trying to resolve is whether or not the current treatment of the summary of Gibraltar's history under the "British period" is unduly POV in this particular article. What is and isn't excluded isn't going to affect how Wikipedia presents this material to the world, because it's all available at the other article already. So just keep that in mind if you can.

I think everyone involved has acknowledged that the British and Dutch did bad things to the Spanish, and the Spanish did bad things in response. If we do find it necessary to mention such bad things, giving equal mention to all sides in the history will help ensure that NPOV is being honored. I hope that nobody objects to that idea, and that with that very simple ideal in mind a compromise should be easy (maybe 10,000 words instead of 20,000). -- Atama頭 23:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

No objection from me, I've already said pretty much the same thinbg already. Justin talk 23:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. --Imalbornoz (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree too; indeed that is what I've been saying for some time. That people did bad things is no surprise, wars involve that sort of thing and the rules of war have evolved a lot since 1704. At that time some things were normal behaviour and as the account notes, any bad behaviour by sailors, who still get drunk and brawl in Gibraltar to this day, was unofficial and quickly controlled. We do not include details of how the Spanish treated to Moorish population of Gibraltar when they in their turn seized the territory, and its notable that in the Treaty of Utrecht, Jews and Moors were specifically excluded from residing in Gibraltar. Their treatment in Spain was also something very different to the concept of human rights today and has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the article. The important things about the capture is that the Spanish lost and left. That remains something the current generation seem reluctant to accept and generates endless cries of 'we was robbed' yes gentlemen your ancestors were, it happens, after 305 years its time to accept reality and stop complaining. --Gibnews (talk) 08:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Since Ecemaml volunteered to come up with something, we might wait for that proposal. Or someone else can propose a change, or I can if you want, as I said it shouldn't be terribly difficult to come up with something short. -- Atama頭 20:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Having seen Ecemaml's preferred prose, I think I'd prefer you to have a go. I've already indicated the facts I consider relevant that should be included. Justin talk 20:26, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is my suggestion, and I am very much open to criticism, it's just an attempt to find a balance between the different versions attempted before.

Violence between foreign sailors and the Spanish populace continued even after the surrender, and once order was restored the majority of the Spanish population left Gibraltar.

I noticed that in previous versions the assurances from British and Dutch officers were "spun" at the detriment of one side or the other; either to say that the sailors were violent despite assurances, or that the people left despite assurances. I decided that for the sake of brevity and neutrality to just leave that out completely, and instead of a new sentence I only added to the existing one. Please let me know what you think and what should change. -- Atama頭 00:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that the sentence is a good start. I think it goes in the good direction, although maybe the desire to keep it short has resulted in a text that can give a misguided idea of what the sources say. I think we have enough room to include some more words in order give a more accurate view: For example, in the Spanish period section, Sefardi Jews that came from Cordoba and stayed for only three years have 88 words explaining the reasons for their coming and their leaving Gibraltar; I am sure we can allot a bit more length to the Spanish population who stayed there for generations and had a much more relevant role in the history of the town. My suggestions:

• "Violence between foreign sailors and the Spanish populace continued": It clearly gives the idea that 1) there was violence already happening in both directions before the surrender (which is not the case at all) and 2) that this violence was equivalent in both sides (which is something that -at least- can be polemical: I think it's better to be more factual and let each reader have his/her own interpretation of whether it was equivalent or not). Most -if not all- sources say that after the surrender "the whole town" suffered atrocities at the hands of invaders (rapes of some women, lootings in almost all homes, profanations in many churches and desecrations of all churches but one; although if someone thinks that it is too long, maybe it is not necessary to have a complete list all these atrocities) and then some murders were committed "in reprisal" and bodies thrown down cesspits (maybe Justin, Ecemaml or Gibnews can add some other relevant violent fact). I suggest that we stick more to what the sources say.
• "the majority of the Spanish population left Gibraltar": Most -if not all- sources say that the Spanish felt they were at risk (I think this is important, as it gives a sourced and commonly accepted explanation of why they left -as it does in the case of the Jews who stayed for 3 years). Also, most sources mention the fact that they left in exile and most of them founded nearby San Roque (if the destination of these villagers is known, it is relevant enough to have it in the article, as in the case of those Sefardite Jews staying for 3 years and then returning to Cordoba). IMHO, the previous facts have to be in the article in order for it to be complete and consistent. Also, it would be nice to say that San Roque kept the shield of arms of Gibraltar, was named by the king as "Gibraltar in exile", etc.; but I am ready to accept that these details go in the History article if there is consensus to keep them there.

I think that these issues can be dealt with in not too many words (not even twice as much as those Cordoban Sefardites). --Imalbornoz (talk) 10:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to the proposed text, reminding all of the editors that this period of history already has 100 words dedicated to it. Imalbornoz seems to wish to turn this overview article into a polemic about a single period. If we add what he wants, strangely enough we'll end up with his list of atrocities, which then requires other facts to be introduced in balance. This is an overview article not a detailed piece on the history of Gibraltar. The other facts he wants to introduce are relevant to San Roque but utterly irrelevant to Gibraltar. Can we stick to the issue at hand please. Justin talk 15:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Justin, for praising my prose above. It's the nicest comment we've exchanged in this mediation :-). However, I support Imalbornoz comments. Violence description should be, though summarized, factual (a remark is that Philip V dubbed San Roque as "My city of Gibraltar resident in its Campo"). Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 21:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC) PS: I've read carefully Jackson's book. Unfortunatelly, it does not tell anywhere that the Muslim inhabitants of Gibraltar were murdered or abused in any of the two Christian takeovers. Moreover, when talking about how bad were Gibraltar conditions to live, it was in the 14th century, something irrelevant for the present discussion.

But you don't actually want to describe what happened accurately, you want to list a series of atrocities that show the British as a foul bunch of bastards, yet reject anything that doesn't. The text I produced as a compromise you've rejected for contrived reasons. Imalbornoz trawled his previous attempts to introduce POV text round 4 different forums who all rejected it. Funnily enough on the NPOV noticeboard the sole comment supported Gibnews' text. Notice the pattern emerging here, you only push to include alleged crimes committed by the British but you don't to include the fact that the perpetrators were later punished, or that the Spanish received promises of religious freedom or that when they finally left order had in fact been restored. All of which are required to provide a NPOV if we are to introduce the text you both demand. And then we have what is an overview article, already too long, with a section on a piece of history totally out of proportion.

Now we have the case where someone totally independent of the discussion produce prose that is appropriate for this article and you reject it for not having enough details of what foul bastards you want everyone to know what the British are. Justin talk 22:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I can assure you that I don't wish to turn this overview article into a polemic about a single period ;-).

I only want the article to summarise in one paragraph some very relevant events that all sources mention but some editors, strangely enough, want to silence. Let me clarify what NPOV means in WP (I am sorry if this sounds pretentious, but at this point I think we should be reminded of this principle): "It requires that all majority- and significant-minority views must be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material." As you see, it does not mean that British and Spanish bad things should be balanced. As you can check, most, if not all, British and all Spanish sources mention these events. I guess that -somewhere- there must be some minority sources that silence them.

One more thing about NPOV: "A point of view fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major points of view on a certain subject are treated in one article except in the case of a content fork."

Finally, as I said, I don't want the section to be all about these events in complete detail (of course). One paragraph with a fair summary would be OK.--Imalbornoz (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Look to be brutally frank I am sick of the sound of Imalbornoz accusing myself and Gibnews of looking to silence anything. We have never tried to silence or suppress anything. We have carefully and patiently explained our concerns. Yet again and again we have the same accusations flung in our faces.

I have had enough, it either stops now, Imalbornoz aplogies for the utter lack of good faith that he has shown or I quit mediation and request that the mediator refers this to arbcom. I really have had a belly full of this crap.

The elephant in the room is that two editors are pushing edits for POV reasons that wish to remove anything that shows the British in a positive light, or anything that shows the Spanish in a bad light. Justin talk 22:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, Justin, I don't really understand. You accuse me of "pushing edits for POV reasons" while at the same time complains about being accused of the same thing. I don't think we're going anywhere. On the other hand, I don't understand this edition. We've been asked to include additional information in the article history of Gibraltar and not here. But when I go to there to add information (that Hills, Jackson, Gold, Sepúlveda...) include in their books about Gibraltar, you remove it. For me it's difficult to understand, especially when I read that you complain about being accused of silencing facts. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 23:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Really. I reverted one fact, with an explanation that I didn't think it was relevant to the article and didn't touch a single one of your other edits. Per BRD did you take it to talk, did you heck. Immediate revert followed by snide remarks here on the talk page and in the edit summary. It never crossed your mind for one second that I might have a valid objection to your edit. The presumption is one of bad faith a none too subtle spin to take a cheap shot.

Anyway I've self-reverted, if you really intend it to be an improvement to the article, you leave it in. Ask yourself if its really relevant? Justin talk 23:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I went through different versions of the text before proposing something. My initial idea was much closer to what Imalbornoz suggested (with a more specific mention of who did what to whom, and a stronger implication of why the Spanish left). I didn't expect my suggestion to be accepted wholesale, so please don't criticize anyone who isn't 100% happy with it. The reason why I wasn't specific about what was done was simply to make the sentence shorter, and I didn't say that the Spanish left because of the problems following surrender because I felt that it should be implied. Much like if someone said, "My boss yelled at me for reason yesterday, I quit my job right after." It doesn't say they quit because of that, but you can assume so. Because that info is in the history article I thought it could be excluded here, but if anyone feels that the information isn't properly being summarized then it should be lengthened.

Again, I'd rather that we not accuse each others' motives, because I've seen what happens in those situations if it gets to arbitration. It rarely leaves everyone feeling happy, and often they'll topic ban people from both sides of the debate. Justin, I don't think that Imalbornoz meant that you're trying to silence the criticism, but just to say that the overwhelming number of sources mention the specific atrocities committed, and that it would be difficult to find sources that don't. That's the impression I got at any rate. -- Atama頭 23:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The goal of that sentence ("strangely enough, want to silence") was not to accuse anyone of anything. It was just a response to Justin's "If we add what he wants, strangely enough we'll end up with his list of atrocities." Just tried to mirror one of his sentences so that he realises what they look from his side :-). The words "to silence" were used with the meaning "to not include in the article." The content of that sentence was not intended to be offensive. I haven't liked many of his comments either, but I have tried to not be offended, and I suggest him to do the same (it isn't worth it, life is so much better if you don't get angry in internet): discussion should be something you enjoy (I really do, although once in a while I get a bit frustrated). --Imalbornoz (talk) 01:34, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, after all, it seems there is something more about the events after the capture that Justin doesn't quite like, not only the level of detail for a "summary article": I wrote about those sourced facts in the History article[26] and commented about them in that article's talk page[27]. Justin seemed to not like the text, but -instead of being bold and editing it and adding whatever sourced facts he thinks are left out- he just eliminated all reference to those events[28] and -I don't know why- asked to "pls take it to talk per BRD" (which I had already done, it just seems he didn't even bother to look in the talk page). Justin agreed that detail of those facts belongs in the History article. He has not even denied the truth of these events. Well, what is it about the text that makes it so unworthy even of being copyedited? Or is it something about the events? I think we should go on with mediation here about how to make a good summary. Theoretically, this discussion here is about how to summarise some events that have been accepted as true and verified by all sides.

I don't believe you are trying to silence facts on purpose, but eliminating any reference even in the History article might make it more difficult to believe to third parties. --Imalbornoz (talk) 10:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Really, look at my edit summary. I suggest taking it to talk to achieve a consensus on the text to be added. At the start of mediation we also agreed not to introduce contentious edits until it was finished. You've broken that promise, you've done so as Ecemaml did so yesterday. Lets have a look at what has happened in the last 24 hrs, both of you have chosen to introduce text you knew would be contentious, both of you have been reverted, with edit summaries explaining why and both of you have come here spinning it to claim that details have been suppressed. I also note text on Imalbornoz's talk page that indicates your both have communicated off-wiki by email. On the surface there appears to be a prima facie case that you're both acting as meat puppets, co-ordinating off-wiki to raise tension to push for the POV edits you desire.

Just because a comment is sourced does not necessarily mean it conforms to NPOV, one can carefully select sources to preferentially treat a particular point of view. That you repeatedly come here twisting reverts and objections to your edits into somehow perverting the truth and silencing unpalatable facts merely demonstrates your presumption is one of bad faith.

The purpose of the talk page is to agree contentious edits in advance before they're added to the article. Something I've tried to explain patiently from day one. Right from the start you've assumed bad faith, you've edit warred to keep contentious material. Your talk page accusations only elevate tension, then you make a comment pretending to be reasonable. We see the same cycle again and again, contentious edits, then a call to be reasonable. Its a none too subtle tactic plain for anyone to see.

Funnily enough when you've asked for third party opinion previously, they haven't supported your position. You shopped around 4 different forums the last time, none came out in support - and on the NPOV forum that included two separate threads you created. Lets also not forget that off-wiki you have been noticed expressing opinions that reflect the extreme Spanish position. Not to mention you obsessively reverting any change I made to your edits, even to the point of reverting my corrections to grammar, spelling and English usage. I could have copy edited but on past experience you would only have reverted.

So if you want, ask a third party for a second opinion, in fact I positively encourage you to do so. But somehow I can confidently and smugly predict you won't get an answer you'll like.

If you want to add sourced facts as I've already indicated I'm content for them to go into the article I suggested. But I do request that you discuss the proposed text on the talk page first to establish a consensus text. The ball is now in your court, if your motives are to improve wikipedia, then you can take that route. If your motive is to push a POV, you can continue as before. Your choice, I can guess which path you'll take, how about disappointing me for a change? Justin talk 11:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

A proposal

I suggest this text for the History of Gibraltar. Once agreed, I suggest getting a summary containing all significant details even if the text is a little bit long:

---

• 1704 4-7 August. After the surrender, despite the efforts of British and Dutch senior officers to maintain order, the civil population was abused by the troops. All the Roman Catholic churches but one (the Parish Church of St. Mayr the Crowned) were desecrated and used as stores. Mockery of religious objects was especially shocking. The Chapel of Our Lady of Europe and the women and children who had taken refuge in it with their homes' most valuable goods were looted. The statue of the Holy Virgin was profanated: the head of the statue and the child Jesus were broken off and thrown among the stones.; there were cases of raped village women. The townspeople took some bloody reprisals, murdering Dutchmen and Englishmen and throwing their corpses to wells and cesspits. The historian and former governor of Gibraltar William Jackson links the behaviour of the troops and the news of the atrocities of English troops two years before in Cádiz stating that:

“ Although Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Habsburg Gibraltar, few decided to run the risk of remaining in the town. [..] English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline, but the inhabitants worst fears were confirmed. [..] Many bloody reprisals were taken by the inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain. ”

Opinions? --Ecemaml (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2009 (UTC) PS: I've included it in the aforementioned article (see here)

It sounds biased and highly anti-British - for example the only reference to anyone being killed was the Spanish murdering the invaders after the surrender. But as this is presumably for the page on the history of Gibraltar article, I suggest further discussion should be there.

It would be ridiculous to have this detail on the main Gibraltar article. --Gibnews (talk) 00:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Ecemaml did say this text was for the history article. -- Atama頭 02:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It does appear to be POV and it is biased against the British. The text is using emotional language and peacock words. "desecrated","shocking", "abused" are not words that belong in an encyclopedic article. Whats also telling is that the words "many bloody reprisals" has morphed into "some reprisals". Missing from the text is that order was restored at the point that the Spanish left. I would suggest removing the emotional language and ensuring that the text reflects the sources.

I'm also somewhat shocked to see that prior to agreement of the text it was inserted into the article verbatim and edit warring to keep it there. I will remined everyone that there was an undertaking not to introduce contentious material into the article during mediation.

As I've already indicated above, the text is a start but needs some work and as Gibnews suggest this isn't the place to be discussing a proposal on another article. Justin talk 10:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

A little recap on sources

There has been some argument with regard to the quality of the sources that are being used. Next, I'd like to share with you a small excerpt of preface of The Rock of the Gibraltarians, by Sir William G. F. Jackson, that I think will throw some light about the issue:

...I found that there were many books about the Rock, but few were comprehensive histories. At one end of the spectrum there was Doctor George Hills's well-researched, but perhaps overdetailed , 'Rock of Contention' [..] I hope I have not been too pro-British or too anti-Spanish, just pro-Gibraltarian...

As it can be easily understood, we can come out with two conclusions: Jackson does not see Hills work as biased or unreliable (so I hope any attempt to discredit this source comes to an end now); and Jackson is openly biased, so its work should be handled with care. As far as I'm concerned, any discussion on the reliability of Hills work is over since it fulfils all the requirements of Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Hope it's clearer now. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

You have not commented on how Hills biography on his personal friend Franco is perceived in Spain.

Jackson in your quote simply says Hills book was well researched, no doubt it is, but Hills being Spanish and a close friend of the fascist leader of Spain is a recipe for an anti-Gibraltarian view. --Gibnews (talk) 01:02, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Gibnews, but I won't comment in your usual inventions ("Hills being Spanish and a close friend of the fascist leader of Spain"). Atama, I know it's difficult to assess opinions and sources, but just inventing things ("Gibraltar was a hard place to live", "the Spanish killed all the Moor population", "Hills is a close friend of Franco") is a waste of time. I'll simply won't go on with this nonsense. Gibnews, please, source your ridiculous statements. Otherwise, shut up. We're not here to refute whatever thing you invent. --Ecemaml (talk) 10:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Atrocities ?

I think we are getting a bit carried away verbally over what happened in 1704. Is the word atrocity appropriate ? How many Spaniards were actually killed AFTER the surrender? So some sailors got drunk and went in search of women, plunder. At the time Catholic churches were not respected by protestants and visa versa. There is no suggestion that this was an OFFICIAL action and it was quickly brought under control. On the other hand British and Dutch servicemen were murdered.

One further point, once the Spanish marched out, they form no part of the history of Gibraltar and what happens in Spain stays in Spain. Gibraltar is not Spain. --Gibnews (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Your POV is respectable, but only as your POV. Once the Spanish Gibraltarians marched out, they went on being part of the history of Gibraltar, as far as all the historians of Gibraltar talk about them. That is, until Gibraltar legally became not-Spanish (1714). So, for me (and for wikipedia, I should say), it's more important what the sources say than what you think. Almost all the Gibraltarians left the city of Gibraltar in 1704 and settled down in other part of the municipal term of Gibraltar. Their king praised them and granted a motto mentioning his home town. Gibraltar was Spanish until the Treaty of Utrecht was signed. Moreover, what I've just described is described in any history or synthesis of the history of Gibraltar, so it's fully relevant for the history of Gibraltar (regardless of what you think or not). Other issue would be talking about San Roque in, let's say, 1900, in the article on the history of Gibraltar. Full stop. Further forum-like discussion could be good for your forum, but not for wikipedia, where we trust in sources not in amateur opinions. This is wikipedia, not Gibnewspedia. As with the rest of your made up statements, for me the discussion is over. Best regard --Ecemaml (talk) 12:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Discussion is over? Ah right, consensus means nothing to you clearly. Justin talk 14:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Transport

The article still states that Gibraltar airport's expected completion date is 2009. On my most recent visit last month this clearly won't be the case. Is there any update on new completion times? If not, could something be drafted in to make it clear that this deadline won't be reached, as by saying "planned with a completion date of 2009" makes the article appear out of date now it's almost 2010... Willdow (talk) 11:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Where exactly does it say that? Change it to completion in 2010. Be bold. --Gibnews (talk) 14:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm having a bit of a mental block today! The new road around the runway is supposed to be built in conjunction with the new airport. Details of this are on the Gibraltar Airport page, although only the new road (not the airport) is mentioned on here. When my brain works I'll add the new airport into the transport section alongside the new road. The completion dates are out-of-date though, and also on the cited pages (reference 7, 8, and 9 on the Gibraltar Airport page).

As I said, I'll try and go through this tomorrow and sort. Willdow (talk) 15:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

You don't really need to discuss that sort of change, best thing is to do it and if its factual nobody will complain. I was on the runway today and the terminal seems to be coming on, but has a long way to go before its operational. --Gibnews (talk) 16:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Carbon dioxide emissions

Is seems as if Gibnews does not wish the wikipedia readers to know the figures of the Carbon dioxide emissions per capita in Gibraltar, as studied by the US Energy Information Administration (see removals here and here). On the other hand, we have, in the second paragraph of the article! some data by an unknown Jane's Group. --Ecemaml (talk) 10:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, anyone who disagrees with you is censoring, always you proceed with the bad faith assumption. Nothing whatsoever to do with you edit warring to keep material that others disagree with and elevating tensions again. Only yesterday I was asking you to use the talk page to establish an edit before adding it to the article. Now if your motives were to improve the article, that is precisely what you'd do, on the other hand if your motives are to escalate tensions then you'd be doing precisely what your doing.

Or it could just be you've selectively seized on some text to show Gibraltar in a bad light. The noticeable feature of your edits is that all are designed to show the British or population of Gibraltar in a bad light, the Spanish in a positive one and clearly NPOV means nothing to you. Further the promise we made at the start of mediation was not to introduce contentious material without discussing it first on the talk page. This is the second time in as many days that you've broken that promise. Whatever happened to giving mediation a chance?

Now I was reluctant to commit to mediation as it seems to me doomed, because you were pushing a POV. My experience of POV warriors is that they always scream about censorship or suppressing facts that must be told. And they edit war. Its also clear to me that there are meat puppets at work here. Justin talk 10:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The issue is it's you which think that such a figure shows Gibraltar in a bad light. I could remove the figures of the GPB or the Jane Group on the grounds that it shows Gibraltar in a good light. This would be as absurd. And as far as I understand, we were talking about the capture of Gibraltar and not about any other issue, so I don't think I have broken any promise. Finally, your observation about my motives or as meat puppets is insulting and I, by second time in two days, ask you to stop your verbal abuse. --Ecemaml (talk) 12:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

No the promise for mediation was not to add any contentious material while it went on. Clearly this is the second time in as many days that you've broken that promise. If you find it insulting, I feel there is more than enough evidence of a collusion here. It seems more than co-incidence that there was an outbreak of making contentious edits by both of you at the same time. Again I call for consensus to be established first and again the preference is to edit war. Justin talk 14:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The source was a good one (and Gibnews' reason for its removal was absurd), but I don't think it belongs in this article; it would be better off somewhere like Environmental issues in Gibraltar or some similar article. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, in fact was also in Economy of Gibraltar and was equally removed on absurd grounds. --Ecemaml (talk) 12:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I suggest in that case that you create the environmental issues article I suggested and add it there, making sure to note the dissenting view cited by RedCoat10 below. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. To say, without qualification, that Carbon dioxide emissions per capita in Gibraltar are the highest in the world is entirely misleading. I suggest you read the comments in the Garrdian article which note that: per capita emissions info doesn't help to give a really clear picture. Small countries like these or Netherlands or Bahrain have very high per capita ratings partly because they have few people (comparatively) and extensive infrastructure. So overall infrastructural emissions (industrial, corporate, tourist, public service) will be chalked up to few people. The study was heavily criticised as unreliable by the Environment Safety Group in Gibraltar: see http://www.carbonoffsetsdaily.com/europe/misleading-to-say-gibraltar-is-a-world-leader-in-carbon-dioxide-emissions-5227.htm . So if you really think it's necessary including this misleading claim, we must also mention why some people think it's a load of tosh. RedCoat10 • talk 12:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course. That's exactly what WP:NPOV requires - presenting all significant points of view, not simply deleting them because of editors' personal disagreements with what they say. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It's not a claim. It's a fact. The sentence (however its poor English) attributes it to the small population of Gibraltar. The comment by the Environment Safety Group in Gibraltar is also proper and should be added. --Ecemaml (talk) 12:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Where is the consensus to add that yet? Answer it has not been achieved yet. Propose a text. Get agreement. Add to the article. Why is that so hard for you to do? Always it has to be a confrontation, with edit warring to get what you want. I label you a POV warrior because that is how you behave. I'll treat you differently when you stop behaving in a way that is deliberately obstructive. As Redcoat10 notes it has been dismissed by another reliable source as unreliable and to seize on one source that is showing information in a misleading manner is not presenting to the reader an accurate position. NPOV requires presentation of information according to how it is presented in the literature. We are not required to present ALL views but views according to their representation in the mainstream media. To suggest Gibraltar is a major source of CO2 emissions is simply ridiculous.

And it is POV to deliberately choose sources to only present Gibraltar from a negative perspective. Does anyome else label Gibraltar as a major source of CO2 emissions. No it doesn't but that is the source you choose to select. Justin talk 14:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

"Dismissed"? "Reliable source"? You're kidding, aren't you? Moreover, you're constantly lying when you claim that may edition tries "to suggest Gibraltar is a major source of CO2 emissions is simply ridiculous" or a a "major source of CO2 emissions". There are two possibilities: that your prejudices prevent you from understanding the text or, worse, that you're deliberately lying.

The raw data says only what it says: that Gibraltar has the highest per capita carbon dioxide emissions. Full stop. The "reliable" source of the Gibraltar Environmental Group does not dismiss anything (I guess you haven't even read it) because it simply can't. It's as you "dismiss" how the GDP is calculated. It appropriately says that it is "misleading to say Gibraltar is a world leader in carbon dioxide emissions" (right), that "the explanation is likely to be linked with the vast amount of fuel sold locally for export for Spanish cars and of course, our bunkering service for international shipping" and nothing more, since it cannot deny facts.

If you feel that such raw data is "bad for Gibraltar" it's really a pity, since this is an encyclopaedia, not the public relationships department of the Gibraltar Government.

Finally, can you explain why you've removed appropriate and soundly sourced information about the per capita emissions of dioxide carbon of Gibraltar and the explanations to it by the Environment Safety Group (if you find any link to them in scholar.google or in the JCI, maybe we could accept it as a "reliable source", but I accept it as a way to keep NPOV)? As you can, of course, I'll restore it, since it's absolutely NPOV. The text, by the way, was that:

“ As a result of his economic activity and the small population, Gibraltar had in 2007 the higher per capita carbon emission in the world: 159,1 tonnes. The Environment Safety Group heavily criticised the report as it suggested Gibraltar being "a world leader in carbon dioxide emissions" and attributed the figures to the small population of the territory and linked it to the vast amount of fuel sold locally for export for Spanish cars and to the bunkering service for international shipping. ”

As a personal comment, that you accuse me of being a POV warrior seems really a joke. But it seems that joking is a constant activity in Gibraltar issues. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 15:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)