Talk:Cat/Archive 9

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (Mar 6 2005 to Aug 16 2005):
• Archive 2 (Aug 16 2005 to Nov 6 2005):

Cats in Islam

I do not see any source in any Hadith about the Prophet Muhammad and the cat. Also, Hurraira does not mean cat as stated in the article. It means reddish, or something red. So Abu Hurraira does not mean father of the cat. I don't want to remove it myself but if someone can find a source for anything in that paragraph. It is well documented that Muhammad advocated kind treatment towards animals, but that specific story seems untrue.Fkh82 02:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

cat breath

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think cats have really bad breath. Of couse, it's not that bad compared to dogs' breath. Scorpionman 22:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Breath odor of cats and also dogs has more to do with dental health than anything else. In most cases adult cats have significant tartar accumulation; owners can attempt to remedy this with special dental treats, by brushing their teeth (veterinarians sell feline toothbrushes and toothpaste) or by having a dental cleaning performed. --Bk0 (Talk) 05:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course that is one of the factors, but I've also heard that air coming up from the intestinal tract will affect the breath odor. For instance, someone who's been eating junk food will have bad breath, while someone who eats good food will have relatively good breath. I think that cats' (and dogs') bad breath is due to their diet of mice, birds, fish and small other small animals. If we ate like that, we'd probably have bad breath too. Scorpionman 02:29, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Notes - a problem

With the references at the end, there are 27 references, but in the text there are only 25. The problem occurs around number 16. I'm having a look into it. Thelb⁴ 07:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I see: there were two in the references (numbers 16 and 17) that didn't link to anywhere in the article. I've taken them away, so it should work now. Thelb⁴ 07:58, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed note about lack of sources

I removed the following note, left by User:144.133.211.127 at [1], from Cat#Environmental effects: It should be noted that this article has no proof or reference to published papers to support its allegations. There is no inclusion of an opposing view.

Presumably this means that the section about cats and the environment has no sources given, since the article as a whole has plenty. Anyway, notes like this belong on the talk page. FreplySpang (talk) 16:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Of course, it would be great if someone did come up with a source for the material on environmental effects. And opposing viewpoints are welcome if presented constructively. FreplySpang (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The article titled “Environmental effects” makes some outrageous allegations without any supporting proof other than the reference to “Some environmentalists claim”.

You have said “…the article as a whole has plenty (of sources)”. I would be pleased if you would point out any proof that predation is destroying nature. Proof would need to be published scientific papers.WikiCats

There's a misunderstanding here. You put in a sentence that says "this article has no proof or reference..." without specifying that you meant the part about predation. The article has lots of references to subjects other than predation. FreplySpang (talk) 17:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. The whole article “Environmental effects” is about predation by cats and the allegation that cats are a threat to the environment. In essence, the allegation is that predation within nature destroys nature. This is a very brash assertion and you really need to be able to back it up with published papers. Thank you for assisting with this issue.WikiCats

Ah. Usually we use "article" to mean the entire Wikipedia page Cat, and "section" to mean a smaller part like Cat#Environmental effects. I stepped in to handle the procedural issue - discussion about an article goes on the talk page, not in the article. I personally don't know much about the predation issue. Since it appears to be the subject of debate, I'll move the paragraph here to the talk page and let people discuss it here. FreplySpang (talk) 16:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. This my second day at this.--WikiCats 10:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

your cat page

show a pic of your cat and there name heres my cat File:Ourkitty4.jpg

Environmental effects

I've removed the controversial section "Environmental effects" so that it can be discussed here. The text is as follows:

Some environmentalists claim that the domestication of cats is harmful to the environment or ecosystems, and that excessive cat populations result in the overhunting of many small animals and birds in both urban and rural areas, possibly disrupting the food chain and limiting local species' populations. This is clearly true in environments where cats did not exist, and were imported, such as Australia and New Zealand, where feral cats now kill native bird species and damage natural flora.

Throughout the centuries, as humans took advantage of the domestic cat's hunting skills, few had regard for their habitat and care, and far fewer thought to practice good animal husbandry. This created many pockets of excessive populations and local imbalances. However, with intervention and management, most especially spay and neuter programs, the disruptions and chaos in both the feline's life cycle and its prey can easily be avoided, and the positive effects these small and vital predators have in the appropriate environments can be observed and appreciated.

I do not intend to be part of the debate, only to encourage the opposing sides to provide sources and reach consensus on what this section should say. FreplySpang (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I’m happy to kick this off. It might be best to have a title that better covers divergent opinions. I would like to suggest “Environmental Issues”

I am an Australian and I have been examining this argument for a number of years. Essentially the proposal is that domestic cats and wild cats threaten the existence of or have caused the extinction of other animals. This allegation has been made for about 13 years now. Prior to that, it was not heard of.

The suggestion is that predation is destroying nature. This is a bold proposal since it is generally accepted that predation is a vital part of nature. (Predation helps to prevent over population of prey species and controls the spread of disease) They would need to show that predation by cats goes beyond it beneficial effects. They would need to show that cats are killing at a rate that exceeds prey species ability to reproduce.

In researching this issue, other than theories, I have not been able to find published studies that support this allegation. e.g. Researcher Frankie Seymour says “Those few papers and studies which speculate that cats might be a threat to the Australian ecosystem present no evidence in support of this speculation.” http://www.animalsaustralia.org/default2.asp?idL1=1274&idL2=1310

Be that as it may, I believe that Wikipedia should reflect both sides of the argument.

I would be happy to re-write this section for the consideration of others. --WikiCats 11:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

On the Simpson's Ralph spells CAT and then the cat's tail moves on the computer, and he says "i'm learning". The point of this is that CAT when spelt shows that a person has been bested, so to speak, and by spelling CAT shows just how stupid he feels, much like Ralph.

Sources

I ran a Google search for "feral cat" predation "endangered species" and looked at the top 50 results. Choosing from relevant and reputable sources and eliminating mirrors, I gathered a collection of links and classed them according to the following question: Are feral cats a threat to endangered species?

Demographics affect the classifications in several respects:

1. Is the domestic cat a native species to the area?

2. Does the local climate allow cats to breed throughout the year?

3. Does the area contain small endangered species suitable for cat predation?

4. Is the ecosystem fragile?

5. Are there local colonies of feral cats?

All of the results listed below come from the United States, Australia, and the United Kingdom. Most come from the United States where the domestic cat is not native. Cited scientific studies of the phenomenon cover three decades in the United States. Florida generates the most results: the state has many small endangered species.

Credible threat

• University of Wisconsin
• University of Florida
• American Bird Conservancy
• The Wildlife Society
• The Lewis Clark Animal Shelter of Idaho
• Delaware Audubon Society
• United States Geological Survey, Hawaii
• Animal Legal and Historical Center regarding Florida cat populations
• University of Michigan
• University of Florida Levin College of Law

• Austrialian Government Department of the Environment and Heritage
• Department of Sustainability and Environment, Australia

Neutral:

• American Veterinary Medical Association
• DVM: The Newsmagazine of Veterinary Medicine (United States)

• BBC

No credible threat:

• Alley Cat Allies Of Bethesda, Maryland
• Animals Australia
• Messybeast.com Cat Resource Archive

Conclusion

Nearly all studies agree that abandoned animals have hard lives. Owners who can no longer keep their animals would do best to give them to friends, rescue organizations, or shelters.

The amount of ecological damage done by indoor/outdoor cats depends on local conditions. Pet owners should contact veterinarians, ecological organizations, and universities for advice. Additionally cat owners should ask local experts about possible dangers from larger predators and infectious diseases. Coyotes kill large numbers of housecats in the Southwestern United States, even in urban zones. FELV (feline leukemia), FIV (feline immunodeficiency virus), or rabies may be present in the area.

In the face of conflicting evidence, the safe choice is to keep a cat indoors. Experts recommend a gradual transition to indoor life for cats who are accustomed to going outside. Durova 09:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

---

Request for response I see an active edit history. Could I have a comment on the above research from a regular editor to this page? I saw a strong opinion on the talk page so I'm respecting the local editors. If no one responds I'll interpret that as a welcome to edit boldly. Durova 03:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Durova. Looks good to me. It seemed that the situation in Australia was of particular interest to some editors, so maybe they'll contribute a bit more about that. FreplySpang (talk) 20:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

On the subject of "Do cats threaten the environment?" - this is what the experts are saying:-

This is what the Environment Australia says “Convincing evidence that cats exert a significant effect on native wildlife throughout the mainland is lacking (Dickman 1996; Jones 1989; Wilson et. al. 1992).

also

"From a strictly scientific viewpoint, the jury is out regarding cats because the necessary research has not been done." Richard Evans MP

and “Indeed, (cats) are one of the very few conservation issues that may actually be overrated.” Biologist Tim Low.

and "Despite the popular view that cats, both feral and domestic, pose a great threat to native wildlife, very little convincing information is available to support this view. " and “…quantitative data which decisively show the cat to be the single or even major cause of a species extinction or serious decline on the Australian mainland, have not been forthcoming.” Ric Nattrass Queensland National Parks & Wildlife Service

“Those few papers and studies which speculate that cats might be a threat to the Australian ecosystem present no evidence in support of this speculation.” Frankie Seymour researcher

“From a CSIRO viewpoint, we are not conducting any research on feral cats (as far as I know), so are not in a position to offer any theories, conjecture, speculation, proof or otherwise on the impact of cats on the environment. It seems to me that until the appropriate research has been done, no-one knows.” Monica van Wensveen Communication Officer CSIRO Sustainable Ecosystems Canberra

“There is no evidence yet produced in Australia that cats are a threat to the natural Australian ecosystem.” Gold Coast Bulletin 23rd April 2005 --WikiCats 15:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that this paragraph replace the section entitled Environmental effects.

Environmental issues

There are two divergent views about cats’ role and impact.

Some people say that predation by cats is having a negative effect on other animals. They claim that cats have caused some species to become extinct.

Other people say that this allegation has never been proven. They say that proving that cats are predators is not proof that they are having a damaging effect. They point out that cats have played a useful role in vermin control for centuries. They point out that for many animals, especially is urban areas, cats are the only animal available to fill the vital role of predator. Without cats these species would over populate. --WikiCats 14:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm restoring to my previous version. While this may or may not be a legitimate issue in mainland Australia, Wikipedia is a worldwide publication. Even the Australian cat defenders agreed that cat predation can be a legitimate issue in island ecosystems. Durova 22:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

archiving

I archived the page again, keeping the last five sections. The page was very long - 68 KB! When I copied into Microsoft Word for archiving, it was 24 pages long! Thelb⁴ 17:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Spiritual garbage

These silly spiritual traditions drive me crazy. Where does anybody get that ridiculous idea that black cats are "unlucky"? Scorpionman 02:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, having a "black cat cross your path" is a common superstition, like walking under a ladder. It's a valid point.--Offkilter 22:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"Superstitions, legends and other associated material" is a useful subsection (could be added to other animals etc pages).

Jackiespeel 18:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I've walked past numerous cats in my time, and my life is a living hell. Drumnbach 01:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Retractable Claws

I think there should be a mention of a cat's retractable claws in the Physical Characteristics section as this is a pretty salient characteristic of the cat.

What do you think? Hoof Hearted 19:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Possible link

More for amusement than seriousness:

Kitten wars ("may the cutest kitten win") [[2]].

Jackiespeel 18:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Cat vocalization

Itsumou added the 'nya' sound as that is how the Japanese render the vocalization of cats. As folks who venerate Kami Neko as one of their main deities, they are the folks to know. ;) Chris 19:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I see, I figured it was some kind of joke (I'm very paranoid, and I see cat haters everywhere ;-). Still, this is the english Wikipedia, and the Japanese rendition holds no relevancy here. Haakon 09:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Re:"A cat does not "meow" at another cat. This sound is reserved for humans." Strictly this is true but it could be put in a better way. In the wild cats "meow" to other cats very infrequently. Cats learn very quickly that meowing to humans gets a responce. So domestic cats meow to humans very much more that they would in the wild. --WikiCats 08:25, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You obviously have never been around cats in a fight, cats in heat, male cats calling girls and kittens who've lost their mom. And that's just cat communication I can name off of the top of my head. They meow during all of those things and it has nothing to do with humans. This has already been discussed and is in the archives.Pschemp 16:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism

With cats who are improperly socialised and do not know their own strength, this can result in inadvertent damage to human skin

I'm not convinced that any cat has knowledge of its strength. I also suspect that the resultant damage is not inadvertent... 59.95.3.86 18:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)james

I believe what the author was going for was kittens learn how hard to bite through play with its litter mates. A kitten weaned too soon doesn't know how hard is too hard. De-clawing can also lead to biting issues since its defensive options have been reduced. You're right that the damage probably isn't accidental, but it's most likely protective rather than aggressive. Luckily, all of my cats are non-biters.Hoof Hearted 19:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

Footnote number three in the text is about Cypress, yet footnote number three in the references at the bottom of the page is about "spaying and neutering". The correct footnote is the first one on the list at the bottom of the page. I think it has to do with the "#" before each footnote. These are assigned from top to bottom independent of where the footnote appears in the text. Can someone explain how the footnote should be marked and how they should work? Is the "#" redundant? In Wikipedia:footnotes there are several rival systems mentioned. There is also no footnote one and two in the text. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 06:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)