Talk:Anti-Americanism

Special note: To avoid an external link farm, the numerous articles posted on the subject have been moved to Talk:Anti-Americanism/External link

Anti-American means nothing and everything.

Any criticism of the United States is anti-american? If a concept includes everything is it a concept? What is not anti-american? The culture section and canadian section are ridiculous. There has to be something connecting a critical statement about the United States to "anti-americanism" other than the word "anti-american." This whole article should be erased and transferred to the fiction section. `` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canuckistani (talk • contribs) 20:18, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anti-ethnic_and_anti-national_terms If this article has to go, all the others has to follow. Which means : the article will stay.--Red-fox.lv (talk) 08:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Bad Quotation?

Is this quote right - I don't have the source, but I don't think the grammar is right. "the belief that what underlies all U.S. actions is a desire to take over or remake the world"

The grammar is fine, the orthography is a bit lacking, in not having a capitalised T, for "The belief", and there being not full stop at the end. --Île flottɑnte~Floɑting islɑnd ^Talk 18:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Also see WP:QUOTE, WP:BURDEN ("All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." and WP:MOS#Quotations (note Minimal change in that last one). I note that this source attributes that quotation (with the supplied orthography) to Rubin, Barry and Judith Colp Rubin. 2004. "Anti-Americanism Re-Examined." The BrownJournal of World Affairs 10(2): 17-24. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Police state?

Quite a lot of anti-governmental statements in USA have been declared by media as anti-american. Is there necessity to add new section or United States should be expanded instead (possibly by adding subsection)? I'm in doubt, since quite a lot of critiques calling USA a police state are made by foreigners visiting USA and therefore may warrant section separate from United States.--Red-fox.lv (talk) 08:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Where the source makes it clear it not a US citizen saying this then it should be in the appropriate location. But it would have to be demonstrated that this was the case.Slatersteven (talk) 11:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

China and India

You devote whole sections to France and Canada but you fail to do the same to describe the specific status of the topic in 2 countries that represent 40% of humanity (well over one half if we consider their area of influence as cultures and civilizations)... and I can promise there is plenty of relevant material. China isn't even named. India is named once in the name of a source (!). From the absence of remarks on these two quasi-continental realities in the article, it may seem that Chinese and Indians feed only warm feelings of grateful love towards the USA. Unfortunately direct experience says it is not the case... Maybe France and Canada, as smaller allies, are funky and reassuring examples to purport here, rather than the big white nuclear elephants... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.27.210 (talk) 01:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Anti-American(Exceptional)ism?

There is anti-Communism, Anti-Nazism and anti-Sovietism, and your Americanism page links to the gracious idea of American exceptionalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism .. Maybe among the other meanings proposed, a defensible semantic exegesis of Anti-Americanism could be of it is "as pondered, secular and multilateral foreign opposition to the idea that the United States are blessed with a superior destiny or chosen by God (as seen i Americanism as American Exceptionalism)". otice also the well-rooted concepts of "Un-American" and "Socialist" as insult, for which if one US citizen does like Noam Chomsky or Gore Vidal (dissent and critique ) he is a traitor, a loser, a fringe position etc. There is a quote of Chomsky about this but the article doesn't develop the quote in propositive form to give to Ant-.Amer. a different meaning (it is not original research).

Half of the article talks about ludicrous racial/ geographical ideas of intellectuals of around 1700, presenting the "critics" as clueless idiots...it is like if we spend 50% of the article about Evolution quoting the Creationists who forbid Darwin teachings invarious US States. Most of this article seems to indicate that all critics want to prove that Americans are inferior beings, while maybe a relevant amout of those critics would rather like to stress that Americans, albeit a superpower, aren't superhumans (notion proclaimed and promoted in quite overt form by NeoCons and American Exceptionalism, well known and existing forces). In other words the Anti- could be not just a form of nasty envy against a country or its freedom, but a form of quite fair opposition against an excess (exceptionalism) and its degenerations.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.27.210 (talk) 01:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The point about the historical sections is in demonstrating that anti-Americanism has been a continuing discourse since the very beginning of America's history. This discourse provides the frame in which anti-Americanism is articulated, on the many occasions that people do so. There are, no-doubt, valid reasons for being (or not being) anti-American, but that is not the point of this article. The anti-American discourse exists and whether it is valid or not, it is a very well established fact that people do continually slag off America and at great length. And please sign your name! Colin4C (talk) 07:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, "slagging off America" is not an encyclopedic topic in itself, but that is, in fact, pretty much all this article is about. There is no real connection between the parts that makes a whole. Noloop (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah...you are back...Please note all the scores of books about Anti-Americanism in the refs and about its connected history. See for instance: Rubin and Rubin (2004). Hating America: A History. Oxford University Press. Are you saying that the history of anti-Americanism is not discussed in these books and that they are about something else ? If so please provide refs as assertions by editors that "there is no such thing as such-and-such" without providing references is classed as original research and is not allowed as a justification for mass deletions of referenced material on the wikipedia. Colin4C (talk) 07:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am saying, essentially, what this article says at it's beginning, that this topic is poorly defined and pretty much includes any criticism or dislike of any aspect of the USA: government, culture, individuals, demographics, corporations, etc. This is what you implied when you summarized the criteria for inclusion as "slagging off America." We couldn't have an article dedicated to "slagging off America" also named that, so instead we have an article dedicated to that topic, but named something that looks more formally defined (but isn't). Noloop (talk) 16:41, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about either. Are you talking about this article or the subject itself??? Please note also that the wikipedia not a dictionary devoted to formal definitions but an encyclopedia. If you think that this is a non-subject how do you explain why Anti-Americanism: History, Causes, Themes. Volume 1. (2007), edited by Brendon O' Connor is over 1400 pages long? 1400 pages is rather a lot of words to expend on a non-subject which (on your view) it is impossible to have even one article dedicated to...Colin4C (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

American exceptionalism is the theory that the US developed differently from other nations because it had no feudal past and does not imply superiority. I think IP may be confusing the concept with Manifest Destiny. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the introduction should be more concise, something like: "Anti-americanism or Americophobia is a phenomenon that exists at a global scale, that consists in the aversion to the United States as a whole or to the American culture. The term can also be used in reference to the rejection of Americanism as a political doctrine." The current introduction questions the existance of the concept, it is unquestionable that the phenomenon exists. 88.27.183.21 (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The current intro does not question that it exists, it only states that it is disputed what it consists of and what should be included in the term. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Just to add as a bit of background to the discussions here, that, if you look at the history of this page you will see that there is a banned user called Bsharvy User:Bsharvy who constantly pops up here in a variety of sock-puppet guises, who believes that there is no such thing as anti-Americanism and uses every opportunity to delete large amounts of this article, engage in edit wars and try to get banned those who disagree with him. He tried to get this article deleted about 2 or 3 years ago and was so dissapointed that it wasn't that he assumed a variety of sock puppet guises to wreck the article and get those who defend it blocked and banned. Though in the end his sock-puppets usually go too far, crash, burn and are found out, it is not before they have inflicted severe damage on the article and caused major infighting amongst the existing editors. When his latest sock-puppet guise is discovered Bsharvy usually immediately re-constitutes himself as another sock and starts more arguments here...I think one of his socks is operating here now, but as I'm not 100% certain it is him, will bide my time before naming him. Colin4C (talk) 08:14, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The term anti-Americanism is never used in reference to the rejection of Americanism as a political doctrine." The Four Deuces (talk) 16:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I should have said the American exceptionalism, not Americanism. It is unquestionable that American exceptionalism is a political doctrine, that says that the United States is superior to any other country because of some reason (ex: God), and that therefore everyone should comply to what the USA says or wants. Anti-Americanism is often used as a rejection to cultural imperialism that derives from that. 88.27.183.21 (talk) 22:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

American exceptionalism is not a political doctrine but a theory in social science. America is seen as a liberal fragment of Europe and since it did not have a feudal past as an influence in politics or society the country experienced rapid growth through capitalism, although also a lack of social cohesion. According to the theory Americans share an ideology called "Americanism". The Four Deuces (talk) 23:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Some POV

• Korean anti-Americanism after the war was fueled by American occupation and support for authoritarian rule, a fact still evident during the country's democratic transition in the 1980s.[1]

The source is newspaper, and its article date is 1987. already 23 years ago. it is not work in nowdays.

• Such anti-Americanism is reflected in Korean popular culture....

This edit is confusing. First, POV editor using 1987 years source, and later described as it relation with moderndays movie. And 'the host' movie is not a real Anti-Americanism movie. Only very first intro part is controvercial.

Fucking USA song written by one pro north korean activist, his song is not reflect to any Korean's view of US.

Apolo Ohno Olympic controversy caused by 'dirty play'. It is not a anti-america. Ohno's play was problem. not all america.

--660gd4qo (talk) 09:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Your removing the link to Anti-American sentiment in Korea was POV also. The wikipedia would be a valuable knowledge resource if editor's didn't just whimsically delete stuff which doesn't suit their personal POV. Colin4C (talk) 09:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Trying to move this forward. There may be a case for properly sourced material that covers the current state of affairs, as a couple of sentences at most. This is not an article about the relationship between South Korea and American, it is an article about anti-americanism and there are referenced cases of that in South Korea that cannot be airbrushed away --Snowded ^TALK 09:40, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

his only concercn is Anti-American sentiment in Korea link. So, we reach at agreement. btw, Don't delete pew research survey and taiwan case. 1987 old news paper article is pretty weak as source. The edit depict as current event.660gd4qo (talk) 09:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see his agreement to that statement here, he just makes the point that you were POV in making that change. You are now edit warring. I strongly suggest you self revert and discuss your changes here, otherwise you will simply end up with a block. --Snowded ^TALK 09:48, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

you will simply end up with a block. You threat me? This discussion is going on. However, he did not point out why he deleted pew reseach survey, taiwan cases. Any reason? even it is not POV.(pew resaech is pretty trusted source) It seems like a he did not know this topic. 660gd4qo (talk) 09:52, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

You are not discussing your changes, you are edit waring. If your edits are reverted by another editor then you discuss the changes here you don't simply insert them again. You have not addressed the suggestion I made above. Please self-revert and propose changes here. --Snowded ^TALK 09:54, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Excue me. You are also edit waring. This is not a POV or edit waring. The last edit is not simply reverting as you think. It change little by little. his only concercn is Anti-American sentiment in Korea link. And i add it. 660gd4qo (talk) 09:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

And if this is a content dispute, he must provide counter part evidence, too. Not simply delete all my edit. and he need provide reason why deleted pew research survey and taiwan case. 660gd4qo (talk) 10:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No, I have restored the stable version per WP:BRD. You are making an assumption that the other editors only concern is one link, s/he does not say that above. You are also not responding to my point that this is not an article about American-South Korean relationships. Please do so (and self revert while you are at it). Even if its a content dispute, it has to be discussed here. When other editors object to your edits you need to follow the rules, not simply change the article again --Snowded ^TALK 10:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

"When other editors object to your edits you need to follow the rules, not simply change the article again" Yes, this is what i saying. "When other editors (me) object to your edits (Colin4C) you need to follow the rules, not simply change the article again" Excuse me. I did not revert to only my version. I reverted to Colin4C's 08:43, 17 April 2010 edit version. Again, I did not revery to my version. After He deleted all my edit without any reason, so i object to it. I want know why he deleted pew research survey, Korea gallup poll and taiwan case.660gd4qo (talk) 10:09, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

You persist in not answering the questions. I have checked your references, one is to a Korean language site and cannot be checked, the one to the Pew research produces a blank page. Investigation of that shows a chart in which Korea shows a 78% favorable response. You are verging on WP:OR and {{WP:SYNTH]] here. Given your lack of engagement I have restored the original text which is referenced and dates (it makes no claim beyond the 1980s). However I have added a sentence using the Pew data to make it clear that a majority of South Koreans have a favorable view. I suggest you live with that or PROPOSE CHANGES HERE. If you restore your material then you risk a 3RR report. Aside from leaving the reference to anti-americanism in North Korean your only other changes were to improve the english. --Snowded ^TALK 10:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

If you questioned my sources, keep going discuss at here. not remove refereces.

BTW, Pew research survey, Korean gallup poll are not my original research.

"If you restore your material then you risk a 3RR report" I did not revert to only my version. I reverted to Colin4C's 08:43, 17 April 2010 edit version. Last edit is not simply reverting also. Unlike your assumption, I did not violate 3rr rule within 24 hrs. 660gd4qo (talk) 10:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

You need to read up a bit on edit warring. Each revert was to substantially the same material other than changes to improve the english and leaving one reference in place. Using a Korean language source in the English WIkipedia means the material cannot be checked, so that one is out. The Pew research appears OK but I have reflected that in my additional sentence. --Snowded ^TALK 10:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Your last revert was to substantially the same material other than changes to improve the english and leaving one reference in place. 660gd4qo (talk) 10:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I restored the bulk of the material which was stable and sourced. I didn't improve the english. In order to deal with your concerns I added in one sentence to make it clear that South Korean attitudes are generally pro-American. In an article about anti-americanism that is enough. THe existing material made its time period clear. --Snowded ^TALK 10:33, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, you are not judge of article. I will edit including both side version. BTW, Non-English sources are acceptable wikipedia. Eveybody happy version is good to end. 660gd4qo (talk) 10:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No editor is a judge, and that includes you. The default in the event of a dispute is the current version. To make it very clear, if you reinsert disputed material before achieving consensus here then you will be reported for a violation of 3RR --Snowded ^TALK 10:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

BTW, 1987 NY times newspaper is simly outdated source. It was past event. and it does not reflect to current situation. And one single 1987 NY times news paper article is hardly regard as wide view. 660gd4qo (talk) 10:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It supports a statement about anti-americanism in the 1980s so its more than valid, it makes no claim about the current state. I have left a final warning on your talk page. --Snowded ^TALK 10:44, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Again, don't threat other editor. It was not a 3rr vio as your assumption. I really hope we need agreement of edit. I really oppose your edit stance (DELETE ALL). At least, My edit including both side unlike you.

Using 23 years ago source, and it depict as current event. At least, it need "This is 23 years ago past event" explain.

"anti-Americanism existed in Korean Popular culure." This is simply wrong POV. only 1 movie and 1 song are not reflect to all Korean Popular culure. Also, Fucking USA song is not POPULAR culture as previous edit. That was minor song, It was indy music. Even that song Was not ranked any single Korean music chart or known in Korean newspaper. It is really hard to says it was "Popular culure". I point out inaccurated edit. 660gd4qo (talk) 10:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

odI'm making some allowance for the fact that english is evidentially not your first language.

• The original and stable text says that "Korean anti-Americanism after the war was fueled by .... still evident during the country's democratic transition in the 1980s". Was is the past tense in English, and the quote makes it clear its the 1980s. It is therefore not an outdated source and does not need qualification.
• Popular culture means things like songs and films
• You have yet to address the point that this is an article about anti-americanism, not about South-Korean USA relationships

You are at least discussing changes, however you should be doing this here, and not editing the article directly while the discussion continues. You are on 4RR, again please self-revert your last change and gain consensus here. --Snowded ^TALK 11:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

As this article is about historical as well as curretn anit-Americanism there is no valid resaon I can see for this statments inclusion. There is a bit more of a valid popint over music. if it is indead only ever been a single song and one film that may be undue.Slatersteven (talk) 13:00, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Disagree with this: " it is an article about anti-americanism and there are referenced cases of that in South Korea" No, there are not "referenced cases of that." Saying something is anti-American is a politicized opinion, and not a statement of fact. There can be referenced cases of things being seen as anti-American, that's all. Noloop (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Esse est percipi. But that applies to everything. Colin4C (talk) 17:47, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't apply to everything according to your cite, or to Wikipedia. Wikipedia (which is what matters here) has guidelines regarding what should be presented as factual and what is an interpretation. Saying something is anti-American is an opinion (as this article itself makes clear). There's a lot of subjective opinion and systemic bias in this article. Noloop (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

That is just your interpretation. Colin4C (talk) 16:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

If an RS says something is anti-americanism then the artciel can say that "X has said that this is an example of anti-americanism.", that is what this articel is about. what is eprcvied to be anti-amierican sentimant.Slatersteven (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Right, as far as it goes. Noloop said, "Saying something is anti-American is a politicized opinion, and not a statement of fact." You point out that saying "X said that Y is anti-American", citing a supporting source, is making a statement of fact. However, if we report the fact of X's statement of his opinion, we must give due weight to differing opinions. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:56, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Wtmitchell is correct, and this article certainly doesn't give due weight to different views. I would add that reliable sources are for statements of fact. If we are reporting someone's opinion--such as that something is anti-American--what matters is that the person be significant and the opinion isn't a fringe theory. Much of this article consists of cherry-picking pet-theories that are held by a few scholars. There's little to suggest that much of anything being reported in this article is a consensus opinion of any scholarly community. Noloop (talk) 03:20, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The its up to those who want 'the other side of the fence' to find those views. Balance does not mean leave material out if we can only find one side of the argument. This article is about what is percived (not what is agrred as being) anti-americanism, it does not matter if one political pundit (as long as he is inprotant enough) or 1000 make the accusation. Any more then if a major public figure makes a racist remark, its notable. Having said this if you have any concreans about material in this articel then raise it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong. It matters whether a theory is held by a dinky minority, or is a consensus view. Assuming there are, say, 50,000 historians in the world, finding two to say that 16th century France was anti-American isn't very relevant. And you are wrong about balance: if you knowingly create an unbalanced article, you knowingly create a biased one. This article is distorted, full of cherry-picked pet theories, and biased. Noloop (talk) 20:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)