Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center

Issue with hategroup listing section

It does seem odd that out of 900+ groups labeled as hate groups by the SPLC, only 2 are discussed by name. I'm sure it's pure coincidence that both of those are conservative groups. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I count far more than two being discussed in the article. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 01:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Wow, I didn't think that anyone would really think I meant the entire article. I'm talking about the section about hate group listings. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that clarifies. I created a header as to make this clear. Anyway, yes, and I think that is just an artifact of h0ow WP is pieced together. I actually think we should either remove those two entries, or condense it and make it more general. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 01:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I was just editing on that section, hope people like what I did. I'm curious about how the groups under "Organizations described by the SPLC as hate groups object to this characterization:" were picked? Why just those? Was it purely chance, when people came upon sources? If there isn't a good reason, I agree with Kim in taking them out. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Assuming it was just a coincidence and that the 2 picked just happened to be conservative orgs, then it shouldn't bother anyone if the list is either balanced or those two removed. There is nothing wrong with how you edited it, but nothing really changed either. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't my intent to change anything, just to improve the structure and make it more encyclopedic sounding. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Niteshift, the reason that any list of groups named by the SPLC as hategroups would be heavily weighted toward conservative groups is that the SPLC really isn't that interested in hate on the left. Out of the nearly 1,000 groups they identify, you could probably count on one hand the number of left-wing groups that the SPLC identifies as hategroups. Their prominent blog Hatewatch is subtitled "keeping an eye on the radical right" and a quick glance at the entries there reveal a focus on not just hategroups, but on mainstream conservatives. Drrll (talk) 20:08, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• I'm on the SPLC's mailing list. I know who is on their list and there are non-conservative, non-right groups on the list. So I'm curious why the only two listed are conservative. Since I'm assuming good faith, it must be a coincidence, right? So the remedy would be to either balance the groups mentioned by name or remove the two specific examples, right? Niteshift36 (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

The answer would be to come up with some sourcable way to justify listing any particular groups who object to SPLC. I would suggest just taking them out and forgetting about the issue. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I am in favor of a two, three sentence section with a general picture that groups often do not like it that they are listed, although I have seen some exceptions to that. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 01:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

It is probably because hate groups are typically right-wing. TFD (talk) 02:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not really conducive to keeping what's left of a nice atmosphere here. And yes, we could say they generally don't like being listed... although I don't know why we'd bother. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

It should not be taken that way. I have never heard of any hate group that was not right-wing. TFD (talk) 02:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can't remember one off-hand either. Sigh. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• You guys need to get out more :) Ever heard of the Nation of Islam? They're on the SPLC's list of hate groups. New Black Panther Party? They are on the list too. The The Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ is a black separatist group that is on the list. Of course I don't truly consider the c of CC to be an actual conservative group (just using conservative in your title doesn't make you one), but there is a chance it was specified in the section because it has the word conservative in it. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

For example, some left-wing animal right activists fit the category of hate groups. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC) To add, if you really want to get a real feel for that, look at some groups in Europe, where left wing hate groups do exist. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand that either. How do animal rights groups discriminate or hate people because of their immutable characteristics, not their choices? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Re your addition about European groups, I don't know anything about them. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Some pro-Palestinian groups can be called left-wing hate groups because of their hate against Israel. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yes, that is an example, thx (: BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you know of any left-wing anti-Semitic or anti-Israel hate groups in the US? Drrll (talk) 03:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

No. The US is very far to the right on the political scale covering the world. What you consider left wing here is our hard core right wing, like liberals. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

According to the SPLC, "All hate groups have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics". Can you name any left-wing Palestinian group in the United States (which is the only country where the SPLC monitors hate groups) that meets this description. TFD (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

No idea. I was talking from a European perspective for the moment in order to demonstrate what the left wing hate group COULD look like. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 04:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

To be clear: these two groups are specifically mentioned because of their objection to being listed, apparently thought notable enough to include and survive over time -- I think that's what Kim meant by 'artifact' of editing -- not by coincidence. In the past others have been mentioned as objecting to the designation. Besides, hate groups are not so easily ascribed to any part of the political spectrum. For example, isn't the Nation of Islam considered right-wing? I believe TFD has mentioned Laird Wilcox's work before on this. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• Who considers NOI to be conservative? They are black separatists that believe that black scientists created the world on a plan that repeats every 25,000 years and a number of other fringe theories. They are far from conservative. Picking out 2 of 900+ that you happen to be able to find disputed the designation doesn't seem like any sort of balance or pattern. Niteshift36 (talk) 06:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Do some digging before you make such a blatantly false allegation. I never added either one. As far as I can tell they were both added by editors who are sympathetic to conservative causes. -PrBeacon (talk) 06:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• What allegation? I haven't made ANY statement about any editor. I don't know who added them. I don't care who added them. Who added them is completely immaterial to the discussion. I know this is difficult for you to grasp, but everything I say isn't about you. Read it again, realize that you have imagined some allegation (maybe surprise me and admit it) and stick to the topic, m'kay? Niteshift36 (talk) 01:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Then choose your words more carefully, especially given our history of disagreements. And while you're at it drop the sarcasm. You clearly said "Picking out 2 of 900+ that you happen to be able to find..." (my emphasis) -- this is not an imagined reference to me when it comes directly after my comment. That's a natural implication of your (sloppy) word choice. I know that you don't appreciate it when others do that to you. Perhaps you assumed I was defending the questionable content as status quo -- that would be another mistake. As Kim said, the section should be reworked anyway and I don't give a damn if conservatives are mentioned with their objections or not. -PrBeacon (talk) 03:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oh give it a rest. You (PRBeacon) want to ignore the rest of the entire conversation and manufacture an allegation because of a generic "you"? See, unlike you (yes, PRBeacon), I don't enter every conversation carrying the baggage of every conversation I've ever had with you (PRBeacon). If you (PRBeacon) bothered to get past your (PRBeacon) own sense of self-importance, you'd (PRBeacon) see that I said almost the exact same thing at the start of this discussion. In fact, I avoided contributing in some of the other discussion you (PRBeacon) were involved in because I predicted that you (PRBeacon) wouldn't be able to have a conversation without dragging everything ever said into it. Stop manufacturing drama where there is none. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Heh, ' give it a rest ' and then that ridiculously pointy reply? Get off your high horse and stop trying to re-frame what I said. It's a stale old tactic of trying to wear down other editors because you have nothing more substantial to add. You're free to move along and suggest a re-write of the section, as others have already agreed to. Yet you prefer to focus on the partisan angle, apparently. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, give it a rest. There is no accusation. Period. Repeating yourself won't change that. And now you start with accusations of your own? What was your point? Apparently, it got buried in all the bullshit about the imaginary allegation. Can you make the point again, without the paranoia this time? Stop living in the past and focus on the topic. Are you able to do that? Niteshift36 (talk) 05:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Takes two to tango eh. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:40, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

No one said they were conservatives, any more than one would call Kim Jong Il a liberal. They are listed as a hate group by the SPLC and as right-wing extremists by Laird Wilcox. Their leaders have met with George Lincoln Rockwell, Tom Metzger and other rightist leaders. TFD (talk) 06:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello again, :)

I added the two organizations described by hate groups who object to the characterization.

Because we don't have a Criticism section in this article, criticism of the SPLC is spread throughout the article. In this case, the groups that criticize the SPLC were listed as hate groups. So their criticism goes into the "Hate group listings" section.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 12:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

...And the entire financial section is criticism. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 16:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

---

So can I take out the selective objecting groups from this section? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Will try this edit later if no one responds. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

funny bot antics

Hi everyone,

About ten hours ago, a bot reverted a change an IP user made where he changed American Family Association lead sentence from:

The American Family Association (AFA) is an American group.

to

The American Family Association (AFA) is an American hate group.

Even though I object to calling the Americian Family Association a hate group, I think it is strange that a bot would make this decision. I think it is a decision that the editors of American Family Association need to make.

I have notified the bot that it made a bad revert. I have also written on the user's page that the edit he made wasn't vandalism.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 07:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

No, it wasn't vandalism, but I doubt the bot would have done that for a regular user. Bots can't be perfect, and it looks like they know that which is why they say "possible vandalism." However, the IP might have been responding to the source [1] added by another IP [2]. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

To someone unfamiliar with the article, an IP changing "group" to "hate group" would appear to be vandalism. It is up to the IP to deal with the bot. TFD (talk) 01:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back, TFD! --Kevinkor2 (talk) 16:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Badmintonhist's proposed changes.

Ok, go ahead and justify them. Dylan Flaherty 00:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I did think some of the edits were good. Good copy edits, and also possibly some sound judgments on taking things out. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps some of them were. Would you like to provide diffs? Dylan Flaherty 00:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I like most changes, except for the removal of the section highlighting that the SPLC was the target of assassination plans etc. Why are those removed??-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 00:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

For example this took out some unnecessary text, and also took out an unnecessary mention of Hal Turner. That is kind of random information which doesn't really add to the informational needs of the article but does drag in something rather off-topic. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:51, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting choice, as I would have picked that one out as an example of a sloppy, pointless edit. Look at how, in the "after" version, there are two references to GruvermontgomeryJuly back to back. Sloppy. He removed a quote on the basis that it sounded kind of silly to point out that this was going to be a bigger threat than past ones, but this is precisely the thinking of the sender, so why are we doing them any favors? Finally, while the brief explanation of who Turner is could be cut, the reference ought not be, precisely because we'd otherwise not have a clue about his role. Dylan Flaherty 00:56, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to note that Badmintonhist has reverted his change twice now, the second time with a dishonest "minor" flag, but hasn't said a word here. Clearly, he is not interested in cooperating, and that's reason enough to throw out everything he did. Dylan Flaherty 00:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking more of not needing to repeat the rhetoric of terrorists, and also of paring the article down as much as possible while still retaining its core information. We want to have something that people will actually read. In that light, it just seemed like a good edit to me. Any sloppiness could be corrected. He also corrected some sloppiness, for example "While Metzger lost his home and will not be publishing any more material" ---> "While Metzger lost his home and ability to publish material." So I just don't think we can condemn the entire series of edits, and it would be worthwhile to do corrections or further edits rather than wholesale revert. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

All possible good he did the article aside, however, the edit summary here [3] is disruptive of normal WP process, as he was reverting almost entirely [4] to the changes he himself had just made. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I have restored the boldly removed part, under WP:BRD. Now that it is reverted because I think the reasons are not valid, discussion is next. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 01:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Kim. I prefer to avoid even the appearance of edit-warring, so I generally stick to 1RR and only go to 2RR if its warranted. The one thing we seem to agree on is that discussion is needed, but Bad has not seen fit to join the discussion. I think it's very nice of Becritical to try to step in for Bad, but it's ultimately Bad's job. Dylan Flaherty 01:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say that each and every change was wholly bad. However, they're a mixed batch and there's enough bad in them to make it hard to filter out the good. I recommend that each change be considered individually, resolving it fully before moving on. Dylan Flaherty 01:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree about either more discussion or more editing care. here is the current state of the changes after I put some stuff back in. I accidentally moved the information about Bond, but don't see a reason to correct that. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:38, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

And note that "Several neo-Nazi groups held a rally in front of SPLC headquarters in early 2003." is still missing, as is ""promising the most dangerous threat" ever faced"" et seq. I'm leaving it up to others to vet this current version. I'm not endorsing it necessarily as the one that should be kept. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I might have joined the discussion earlier but my singing talents are often in demand on Saturday nights. Right now the family computer is being demanded by my wife so more detailed comments will have to wait. For now, I'll just observe that my recent edits were excellent and should be embraced by discerning editors throughout the Wikipedia project,. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

/cringe. Jeez, now he's channeling fictional character Ignatius J. Reilly?! Next he'll be quoting Boethius and Fortuna. Even more so now, I stand by my earlier objections [5] [6] to his editorial opinion of what constitutes article improvement. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

We bow to thee, great Badmintonhist the Mighty. It is thy editing which doth set us an example, tho verily never shall we meet thy admirable standard. Forgive us our humble objections, for it is merely our ignorance and perversity which hath overcome us in our tear-filled and loathsome debasement. Whilst thou walkest among the stars of True Knowledge, do we scrape our bellies on the lowly thorns, and drag our weary tails in the mud of ignorance and contrariness. Be lenient and patient with us, oh Badmintonhist, Father of All Good Writing and NPOV, for we are weak. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Funny! --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:38, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

:P BE——Critical_{__Talk} 06:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

All kidding aside, I took the time to write edit summaries for all but the most obvious edits so I would have expected an individual approach to each edit rather than a blanket deletion. I would be happy to defend each change that I made but not all at once. Dylan sent me a rather odd note threatening to "report" me for mischaracterizing my edits as minor? Where does that come from? Badmintonhist (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC) P.S. I have to compliment BeCritical on his rejoinder.

A note which you ignored and apparently fail to understand. The note includes a diff in which you made many significant changes but labeled it as Minor. This is Bad. Do not do this. Dylan Flaherty 17:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

As I remember I was hurrying out for the evening. Perhaps I noted some small glitch in the edit summary, corrected it, and unconsciously labeled it a minor change before clicking "submit." Even the great ones can make small mistakes from time to time. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm certain you'll be more careful in the future. Marking a large reversion as Minor may be seen as suggesting that you are reverting vandalism. Dylan Flaherty 17:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think wiki software automatically labels some kinds of reverts as minor, it's a flaw in their software rather than something he did on purpose (or at least that used to be the case, they keep updating the software). He obviously didn't mean to do that and it's too obvious a ploy for any intelligent person to have done it to try and get by our radar on this article. Since it can't have been bad faith, let's AGF. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe that's the case, but I'm willing to AGF if they say it wasn't intentional. Dylan Flaherty 05:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Categorization or List

Take 2, since the first try generated no consensus. So, two questions here:

• Should Wikipedia have information on groups that the SPLC designates as hate groups?
• If so, should this information be in the form of a category, or a list?

(If you're going to link to a policy page, it would be helpful if you'd provide a quote so we know what you're referring to.)

• Yes - its tracking of hate groups is definitely notable, and Wikipedia already has both List of designated terrorist organizations and Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by designator (some subcats of which also include lists). So it's clearly not unprecedented, and it's also notable. I have no opinion on whether it should be a category or a list. Roscelese (talk) 03:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
• Yes - this is an authoritative list and therefore quite helpful. Ditto about category/list, although leaning slightly towards category, for convenience. Dylan Flaherty 04:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
• Strong No - A list might be okay for "information on groups that the SPLC designates as hate groups" if is it presented as the SPLC's list, not an actual list. But then why have that at all since a simple link to the SPLC will suffice? Designated terrorist organizations come from a reliable source, a national government. They have encyclopedic significance. Hate groups as listed by the SPLC would come from a source that has admitted it is trying to smear certain groups, not in so many words, of course. SPLC's listing is not encyclopedic, except to the extent that a hyperlink is made to the SPLC web site for the SPLC's list on an as needed basis, or except for mention on the SPLC page itself. Giving the SPLC's list an encyclopedia page would give its list qualities of reliability, etc., that its list on the SPLC site does not now have, and that is not the mission of Wikipedia. It may be the mission of SPLC, but not Wikipedia. On a related note, a list of actual hate groups would be a strong magnet for trouble.

And a category is inappropriate per WP:CAT and WP:OVERCAT.

Procedurally, I am not comfortable with attempting to gain consensus in a new section for something that had no consensus so recently, as in a day ago. The existing section was entirely appropriate for continuing the conversation. By having this new section, it essentially nullifies the previous one, and if the editors there do not comment here, suddenly their votes have disappeared. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I've already asked you to specify what policies at WP:CAT and WP:OVERCAT you're referring to, since I see nothing there that would preclude the creation of a category. Now I'll also ask you to provide evidence that the SPLC "admitted it is trying to smear certain groups." Roscelese (talk) 04:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The list is the more likely of the two, and that suffers from serious problems as I stated. So I'll pass on spending time on the CAT problem for now. As to the smearing, see, for example, the Tom Brokaw matter here: "SPLC's Cowardly Lyin'", FRC, 8 December 2010. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand. When I ask you to provide evidence that the SPLC "admitted it is trying to smear certain groups," I mean that I want you to provide evidence that the SPLC "admitted it is trying to smear certain groups." Roscelese (talk) 05:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

As for the other issues you raised: 1. Procedurally, I started a new section because I wanted to discuss the alternate possibility of creating a list. Hopefully some of the editors from before will contribute their opinions as well, but I think it's neater this way. (I don't see what you're worried about with opposing votes being lost - of the people from the previous discussion who haven't commented here yet, the number of supporting and opposing is the same.) 2. What makes the government more reliable than an organization whose mission is, largely, tracking hate groups? I suppose the Simon Wiesenthal Center is also not reliable, because it is not a government and it is biased against Nazis. Roscelese (talk) 05:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to hear you actually answer her question. If you don't, I will give "Huckleberry Finn" as a Christmas gift to a teen. Dylan Flaherty 04:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Easy answer. You misquoted me. The full quote is, "admitted it is trying to smear certain groups, not in so many words, of course". The key phrase is "not in so many words, of course". However, I have linked to an article where Tom Brokaw questioned the SPLC's action. There's a RS if there ever was one. The focus here is on Wikipedia, not on it editors. Tom Brokaw, not LAEC. And Tom Brokaw or the like did not question the Simon Wiesenthal Center on why it was smearing Nazis. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has an impeccable reputation. As the Tom Brokaw matter shows, the SPLC does not.

Huckleberry Finn is outstanding writing and beloved by almost everyone, including myself. That said, the book comment was genuinely funny. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Then provide that evidence in "not so many words." Even if Brokaw had said anything of the kind in the unreliable source that you cited, his own personal opinion, as someone completely unaffiliated with the SPLC, would not be a substitute for the admission you are claiming exists. Roscelese (talk) 05:29, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose I see no need for the category. People should be able to find the up-to-date on the SPLC website. LAEC, could you please stop linking to sites that cannot be used as reliable sources. I find them just as offensive as you find pornography. TFD (talk) 05:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I mean, I think it would be useful as a navigational tool - so that articles about the groups would all be in one place or all accessible from one place. Roscelese (talk) 05:11, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

We could have a list with links, which would be easier to maintain. We probably do not even have articles about most of the groups, so it could be helpful in showing that. TFD (talk) 05:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that was one of the alternatives I was suggesting. So, to be clear, do you, like LAEC, oppose the idea of Wikipedia's having this information, or is it just that you oppose a category? Roscelese (talk) 05:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

TFD, good to have you back. I do not oppose pornography, unless it is illegal. I know the ref is not necessarily a RS, but we are talking in Talk and Tom Brokaw is the RS contained in the link I provided, and he directly calls into question the SPLC motives for labeling certain groups as hate groups. I see that Tom Brokaw/SPLC exchange and I am not impressed with the SPLC's response, and it appears neither is Tom Brokaw. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

^Pls. note that this comment misrepresents the source in multiple ways: Brokaw says nothing of the kind, nor is his personal opinion (ie. not a news broadcast on which he is host) a reliable source. Roscelese (talk) 05:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I oppose the category because the terminology is specific to the SPLC and will no doubt cause disruption over dozens of articles. But a list article would be fine, if someone wants to copy over the 900+ organizations and provide internal links. TFD (talk) 05:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear (again), the proposed category would be something like "Organizations designated as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center," so it would be quite clear who was doing the designating. Roscelese (talk) 05:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

TFD is exactly correct. And in saying "copy over", that reminds me of the potential for WP:COPYVIO. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh - do you also support a list? (I really should have made two separate headings so this would all be clearer.) Roscelese (talk) 05:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I would support a list, but for the problems TFD and I have discussed. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The category would have no utility and would soon be out of date. We can always mention in individual articles that groups are listed by the SPLC as hate groups. I do not see btw any copyright problems with copying a list but you may wish to check it. Incidentally if you were to create a category at a later date, having a list with internal links would make the process a lot easier. TFD (talk) 05:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, I've addressed your contention about reliability - do you really think there would be a copyvio problem, given that the information would likely be presented in a different way (I see no reason to organize by state, as their website does - moreover, this would mean that individual branches of groups would not have to be listed more than once)? Roscelese (talk) 06:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

What would the list consist of? Just the list the SPLC has? If so, we don't need that list here, and it would be an inferior source since it wouldn't be updated as well as the SPLC's version. A category, however, would be highly appropriate for hate groups in general, but not limited to the SPLC's. TFD's point about the disruption it would cause is a good one though. I say, don't do either. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 07:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There could never be a category "Hate groups" without including who designates the group as a hate group, for the same reason the "terrorist groups" categories are by designator. Roscelese (talk) 07:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Right so I'd say it's definitely not something we should do... and the list is merely redundant to the SPLC's and less up-to-date. There's a reason to have List of designated terrorist organizations, since it includes more than one authority's designation. I doubt that is feasible in this case? If we could include groups designated by other authorities, it would be a good idea to have the list. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 07:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I still think it would be useful as a navigational tool, but that's a decent point, and it would be an even better list if it had more than one organization's info. We could add the ADL. The article hate group says the FBI also tracks hate groups, which I confirmed on their website, but I can't find a public list. Roscelese (talk) 07:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Be cool if we could find the FBI list. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:14, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I did find this, useful for the article as it recommends SPLC. We already knew that, but could add it. I didn't find an FBI list either, and I think I would have if one existed. They keep track, but don't publish the list apparently. I would think they wouldn't, it would give the groups a heads-up. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yeah, I saw that as well - guess there's no list we could use. Do you think we'd be able to start an article with the SPLC and ADL, though? (Any other monitoring groups I might not be thinking of? I found something called Hate Directory, but no reliable info on the creator's credentials, so I wouldn't include it.) Roscelese (talk) 21:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Not sure... the Anti Defamation League "publishes a list of the "ten leading organizations responsible for maligning Israel in the US", which have included a group calling for the United States to "stop funding Israeli apartheid"." That's not much to go on is it? What it looks like to me is that the SPLC is it. It maintains the list on which the FBI depends and no other organizations feel the need to duplicate the SPLC's work. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That's what I found at first, too, which isn't very useful, but then I dug a bit and found this, which has at least a few. (the "movements" category on the sidebar also includes the KKK and others). Roscelese (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The ADL lists the American Front's ideology as "Anti-Semitism, White supremacy, Third Positionist". The WP article already puts them in the category of "White supremacist groups in the United States". We also have a category, "Antisemitism in the United States", and could create a sub-category for organizations. We could also create categories for third position, etc. TFD (talk) 22:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There's actually a discussion going on now over whether it's acceptable to categorize groups as anti-Semitic, since previous consensus is that they can't be categorized as homophobic. An attributed list would solve the POV issue. Roscelese (talk) 22:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

No, it would not. No one wants to be labeled with a negative category, just because it's "attributed." I know three public libraries that are defrauding the government of millions. Should there be a "defrauder" cat that attribute the allegation to me? Some libraries even cover up child pron crimes. Should the "child pron" cat be added to the pages of various libraries? And the cat you seek, even if attributed, would still suffer from all the other problems discussed by the various editors above. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Aren't you cute. Since your opinion is so clearly authoritative, as substantiated by dozens of reliable sources, how about you try adding "Cat:Libraries that LAEC thinks are committing fraud" to the articles and see what happens? Maybe you'll get an A on your school project. Roscelese (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Really, I'm not joking, you've just made my point. Besides that, I view your last comment as incivil. Between that and your driven efforts to promote your view, I will now ascribe less weight to your contributions. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:53, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Good luck. Roscelese (talk) 22:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support I have been thinking about this, and I have come to the conclusion that a category called Category:US hate groups would be valid. The hate groups of course aren't going to like it, but heck that is just their bad luck. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support after contemplation. We should absolutely not consider what hate groups "want" when making editorial decisions. I'm amenable to either list or category form. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:00, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

This would be a list or a category of hate groups designated as such by some official agency I assume such as the FBI, right? Sounds okay to me but why are we discussing it on the SPLC talk page? Badmintonhist (talk) 00:45, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you have some reliable sources that don't accept the SPLC's categorization prima facie? We have plenty of demonstrations of reliable sources that do. Let's not travel down the fringe rabbit hole... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't the FBI have a list? There are a number sources, some used in our Wikipedia article and hardly "fringe" (Harper's, The Nation [well the Nation is a bit Lefty in its orientation], The Montgomery Advertiser) that have accused the SPLC of exaggerating hate group threats. The FBI has been known to exaggerate too but I think we would be safer and more "official" with its list if we're going to have one. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

According to Becritical's recent edit, the FBI recommends the SPLC's list. Roscelese (talk) 01:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this, and it occurs to me that any organization that makes the SPLC's hate group list should have this fact stated in the article, in addition to any category or list. Dylan Flaherty 01:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

To be more precise, Roscelese, The FBI lists the SPLC as a resource in it's hate crimes effort. However, as far as I know the FBI doesn't simply accept the SPLC's list of hate groups as its own. Again, why use a private organization's list as opposed to the list of the federal government agency which officially investigates hate crimes and hate groups? Badmintonhist (talk) 02:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)\

The SPLC hate group list is generally used by researchers etc as the list to use. See one of the links BeCritical gave above. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Nah, I think I would go with a more official kind of list, Kim. One that's got the U.S. government behind it. Besides, the more I read from sources that the SPLC hasn't yet designated as hate organizations , such as Harper's and The Nation, the more it seems as if the SPLC has a pecuniary interest in exaggerating hate threats. I'm not sure we should be giving a charity that gets failing grades for raising lots of money that it doesn't use on its mission such weight in our encyclopedia. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

We obviously disagree here. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

How long do we let editors like Badmintonhist just make things up, and/or push fringe facts/conclusions not supported by mainstream sources and deserving of no WP:WEIGHT? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:55, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

"Not supported by mainstream sources"--what exactly would be mainstream sources if Harper's, The Nation, The Montgomery Advertiser, and Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard are not mainstream in your estimation? Drrll (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

What sources support the statement "the SPLC has a pecuniary interest in exaggerating hate threats"? Are there enough to rise above a fringe viewpoint? You guys are are simply cherry picking those 3 or 4 sources from over 20 years of the SPLC's existence and trying to use them to legitimize fringe viewpoints. It's dishonest, inappropriate, and it certainly looks like you're more concerned with being sympathetic to their cause than you are interested in reflecting what is commonly accepted by nearly all mainstream sources. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 13:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• No to category. Undecided to list or template. Based on my personal Wikipedia experience:
  • Small categories that I have been involved with are quickly deleted or turned into templates:
    • Category:Members of the Family also known as the Fellowship. Discussed December 4 to 14, 2010. Deleted.
    • Category:International Christian Leadership. Discussed December 15 to 28, 2010. Deleted and Template:The Fellowship Navbox created.
  • Templates that I've created are kept, watched, and maintained:
    • Template:The Fellowship Navbox. Created December 30, 2009. Discussed January 31 to February 2, 2010. TfD withdrawn.
    • Template:Goodwill Industries Navbox. Created February 21, 2010.
    • Template:Chick Publications Navbox. Created June 22, 2010.
  • --Kevinkor2 (talk) 05:55, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Yes to list. The SPLC hate map says that it lists 932 active hate groups. It would be good to have a list that is restricted to groups that already have a Wikipedia article.--Kevinkor2 (talk) 05:22, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's return to my first objection. What is the point of using the SPLC's list as opposed to the FBI's list? I have the feeling that the major purpose for some editors is to bloat the list with non-violent but politically rightish organizations which certain editors dislike. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC) P.S. If you want me to cite policies WP:POV and WP:UNDUE for starters.

1. The FBI publishes no such list.
2. The SPLC's list is accepted prima facie by all the reliable sources and government organizations we've seen. By any preponderance of the available reliable sources, the SPLC is accepted as the authority on hate group tracking and categorization.
3. Couldn't it also be said that the "major purpose" of some other editors is to push fringe viewpoints sympathetic to hate groups?

//Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:20, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

If such a list article is created, it should specify for each group listed whether it is designated as a hate group by the SPLC and whether it is designated as such by the ADL. The ADL is a far less ideologically-charged organization than the SPLC and thus has more credibility on such matters. The 'Resources' section on the FBI page on hate crimes lists both the SPLC and the ADL. It should also include reliably-sourced responses to the designation, such as the response in the Washington Post by the Family Research Council. Drrll (talk) 20:11, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Is your declaration that the SPLC is "ideologically charged" and therefore "has less credibility" based on your own opinion, or do you have some sources to back up your assertion? So far, this looks more like a case of ideologically-motivated Wikipedia editors trying to inject a fringe viewpoint not supported with demonstrated weight in reliable sources. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Gee, I dunno, Blax. The Nation calls Dees's outfit "one of the greatest frauds in American life," Harper's calls it "basically a fraud," The Washington Post calls it "controversial;" all sorts of liberal once-allies have turned against it, complaints about the way it treats black employees, tons of money raised by pushing the "danger" posed by hate groups but little actually spent on seeking justice for hate's victims, horrible official ratings as a charitable organization, big annual salaries for Dees. I wouldn't think we would be anxious to sully the pristine reputation of our noble Wikipedia project by relying so heavily on the dubious virtues of such an organization. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Whow, lets see. The Harper quote of about their financial strategy, they do not say if their work is suspect. The nation link I cannot find. The Washington post link is an opinion piece of someone labeled a hate group, geez, how surprising. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 22:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh Harper's Ken Silverstein very much questions their work as does ol' Alexander Cockburn (tough name to be born with) over at The Nation. There is an intimate connection between the SPLC's hate group danger pushing and its finances since the hate group alarm is integral in filling the coffers of the organization. It apparently needs plenty of money to fight the hate group problem and secure justice to its victims but very little of this money actually goes into substantive programs for those purposes. Dees does manage to set aside $350,000 of it for himself each year. Most of the rest adds to the richness of its treasury. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It's already covered under Southern Poverty Law Center#Finances, which already takes up one fifth of the article. TFD (talk) 00:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Kim, the Washington Post piece Badmintonhist was referring to is a straight news piece. Drrll (talk) 02:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence it is a straight news piece:

• It is listed in the "politics" tab of the Washington Post web site, instead of the "opinion" tab.
• It is written by a person on the staff of the Washington Post Staff, unlike a guest from another organization.
• Phrases like "I think" or "I want" or "I believe" are absent. Lots of opinion pieces are written in first person.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 05:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Blaxthos, there is plenty of support in reliable sources that the SPLC is an ideologically charged organization. For starters, The New York Times, The Washington Post, USA Today, Newsweek, and The ABA Journal all call the SPLC liberal. The premier publication of the SPLC, The Intelligence Report describes itself as "the nation's preeminent periodical monitoring the radical right in the U.S.," not something like "monitoring radicals in the U.S." Their very active blog, published by The Intelligence Report staff is subtitled "keeping a eye on the radical right." In Ken Silverstein's (no conservative) words from Harper's, the SPLC "has a habit of casually labeling organizations as 'hate groups.'" Drrll (talk) 02:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

On the one side, we have your synthesis of sources complaining that the SPLC is too successful at raising money. On the other, we have the FBI using their hate list as a resource. What should we really care about? Dylan Flaherty 02:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

"Your synthesis of sources complaining that the SPLC is too successful at raising money." That's not his only argument. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I went after his strongest; the rest are worse. For example, it's a simple fact that hate groups are not associated with liberalism in America, so you'd expect a liberal group to monitor hate groups. Stieg Larsson, who monitored hate groups in Sweden, was a communist. Therefore, the fact that a hate-watching group is liberal does not make it at all biased. Dylan Flaherty 02:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

While true hate groups in the US are largely on the right, the SPLC doesn't limit its criticism to just hate groups, but to what it considers hateful speech and radical actions. Hateful speech and radical actions are hardly monopolized by the right. Drrll (talk) 03:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The SPLC monitors "patriot groups", like the John Birch Society, because they share some beliefs (such as the New World Order) and membership with hate groups. On the other hand, the radical Right in the U.S. is a hundred times larger than the Left, and there have been no violent actions by left-wing groups for over twenty years. TFD (talk) 05:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I was referring primarily to hateful speech and radical actions by individuals rather than groups, which the Intelligence Report staff regularly report on. But haven't there been violent actions in the past twenty years by such left-wing groups as environmentalist, animal rights, antiwar, and anti-globalization groups? Drrll (talk) 09:22, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course there have. But "hate group" and "terrorist group" aren't synonyms. Some animal rights groups commit terrorism in the name of protecting animals, but one could hardly argue that they hate humans. On the other hand, many of SPLC's groups haven't committed violent actions, but it would be equally difficult to argue that neo-Nazi groups are not full of hate.

Also, can we end this tangent about their finances? It's already covered in the article, and it has apparently no bearing on the credibility of their list. If no one has - not only one source contesting the credibility of their list, because there exists strong consensus on the credibility of the list from other sources, but a substantial number of reliable sources contesting that credibility - then there is no reason not to use it. Roscelese (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Sources are required to state that the SPLC is "ideologically charged". TFD (talk) 02:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, what I asked for were sources that support Badmintonhist's statement that the SPLC is less credible. What I got was a few editors trying to cherry pick disparate sources and distort their meaning to give validity to a fringe viewpoint. Reliable sources, academia, and the government all regard SPLC as authoritative on hate groups; Wikipedia doesn't give equal voice to fringe viewpoints, and at this point I'm questioning whether the article gives undue weight to those viewpoints already. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:40, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, in support of a category. If there is insufficient consensus to support a category, at least have a list. - Gilgamesh (talk) 22:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, I came in late this time, but gave my vote above. It looks like 5 to 3. How much is needed for consensus? - Gilgamesh (talk) 22:37, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

FBI partnership

I found that the FBI actually formed a partnership with the SPLC. This should probably be in the article in a special section. What do others think? [7][8]; this might be of use for something [9] [10] BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

"Two years ago, the FBI and the Department of Justice began to work with the NAACP, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the National Urban League on the Civil Rights Cold Case Initiative. " BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:47, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I think this is notable, relevant and should be included in this article. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. --Kevinkor2 (talk) 05:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Drrll (talk) 09:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's save some time here: does anyone actually object? If not, let's move on. Dylan Flaherty 13:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL. Thanks guys for the vote of agreement. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

And if anyone wants to edit this, feel welcome. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 17:34, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

SPLC character assassination denounced

22 members of Congress, including House speaker-designate John Boehner, several state governors, and other conservative politicians have signed a public statement denouncing the SPLC's inclusion of the anti-gay groups on its 2011 watch list as "character assassination." They said the list is an attempt to "shut down informed discussion of policy issues."

Source of above quote: "Anti-Gay Chicago Groups Make 'Hate List,'" by Mark Saxenmeyer, FOX Chicago News, 20 December 2010.

This article may otherwise be relevant to this SPLC page. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I would include a mention of this in the section on the Family Resource Council's response to the SPLC's hate group designation, but that was removed from the article. I doubt there is much support for putting their response back into this article. Another article goes into more detail about exactly who signed onto the public statement. Besides Boehner, it includes upcoming House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Gov. Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota, and Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, as well as a couple of U.S. Senators. I say it belongs in the Family Research Council WP article. Drrll (talk) 19:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I think it belongs here in SPLC somehow as well. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

You also have editors asking, "Actually, what I asked for were sources that support Badmintonhist's statement that the SPLC is less credible". It appears to me the 2 articles cited so far in this subsection go a long way to satisfying that concern. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

No, what we have here is individuals either criticized or associated with criticized say they are not credible. That is a primary source, and we need secondary or tertiary sources claiming that. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The actual ad by the Family Research Council is at http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF10L12.pdf

The associated web site is at http://www.startdebatingstophating.com/ (note: © 2010 Family Research Council at bottom of web site)

SPLC's response is at http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/12/15/splc-responds-to-attack-by-frc-conservative-republicans/

Google news search to find more sources: http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1R2ADSA_enCA387&tbs=nws:1&q=%22John+Boehner%22+anti-gay&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&psj=1&fp=8d4887a6ba3c5b14

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 19:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it could be included in the "Hate group listings" subsection as a reaction to their 2010 designation of several conservative Christian organizations as hate groups, not just the FRC? As far as I know, there hasn't been a more public objection to the SPLC's designation of hate groups by prominent public officials as this. Drrll (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The story is from "FOX Chicago News". Unless we can find other sources it appears to lack notability. Also, we should point out other aspects of the story. FCN refers to "the respected Southern Poverty Law Center's (SPLC) annual round-up of hate groups". AFTAH claims that FCN, which is part of the "pro-homosexual media", tried to ""expose" AFTAH as a "hate group"".[11] TFD (talk) 20:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think this should be mentioned, and maybe we indeed have to make a small section about the listing of many anti-gay groups as hate groups and include the response there. We than need of course also the responses who have welcomed the listing of those organizations to avoid WP:UNDUE. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

It probably needs to be in, but I can't find any really good sources on it yet. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Besides the Fox Chicago and Daily Caller sources, there is a Slate source and perhaps most relevant to this article, the SPLC response to the criticism that Kevinkor2 listed above (http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/12/15/splc-responds-to-attack-by-frc-conservative-republicans/). Drrll (talk) 21:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh cool, where is the Slate source? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2010/12/15/boehner-cantor-bachmann-pence-and-more-against-the-southern-poverty-law-center.aspx Drrll (talk) 00:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Since the SPLC lists over 900 hate groups, this section would not be small. If a group is not mentioned in the article, there is no need for their response. I would like to see intelligent sources that challenge SPLC's categorization, but no one has been able to find any. TFD (talk) 20:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, what we see is source after source of hate-groups whining about being called a hate group. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Members of congress signing something in support of -what was it- Family Research Council is notable. Which is why I mentioned I can't find a really good source. We'd have to limit any criticism or criticism section to the best sources, and only give a brief summary of those. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:18, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is notable, but also the group least likely to be objective. Not a reliable source in that sense. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Notability is determined by media coverage. Since the story first appeared Monday, it may be that it attains notability but so far it has not. TFD (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Notability is determined by coverage in reliable sources BE——Critical_{__Talk} 22:23, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The only reliable sources for what happened two days ago are the media. TFD (talk) 22:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

But media coverage is not notable unless the media is reliable. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The section could be small based upon such factors as which groups designated as hate groups have their objections published in reliable sources, which groups garner support from prominent public figures, and which groups are designated as hate groups solely by the SPLC and not by the ADL. Drrll (talk) 00:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What do we actually expect a hate group to say after being called a hate group? Are they going to cheerfully admit to the designation or are they going to vehemently deny that those "liberal, pinko, Jewish lawyers" just might have a point? Think about it. Reporting denials is pointless because it's not news. Dylan Flaherty 01:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

That's true, that's what I meant about limiting it to reliable secondary sources. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Right. If the SPLC decided that AA was a hate group because it hated alcohol, we'd find plenty of reliable secondary sources calling SPLC on this insane accusation. We won't find any reliable secondary sources denying that the KKK is a hate group, though I'm sure the KKK wants us to believe it's a civic organization that just so happens to have an all-white membership roster. :-) Dylan Flaherty 02:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It is news when you limit the section to only objections published in reliable sources like The Washington Post or to groups that garner support from prominent public figures. Drrll (talk) 01:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Do we have any of those? Dylan Flaherty 02:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the Family Research Council. Drrll (talk) 02:19, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No, that would be yet another hate group claiming it's not. Dylan Flaherty 03:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think calling FRC "another hate group" lends itself to objective editing. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if two editors think the FRC is or is not a hate group. Anyone with a grain of sense should be able to see that the Family Research Council is not a reliable source for the statement "The Family Research Council is not a hate group." Roscelese (talk) 05:14, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Well said. Dylan Flaherty 05:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Editors here seem to be talking past each other even though, it seems to me, they should be agreeing on Drrll's basic point: A designated "hate group" denying that it is a hate group is not notable in and of itself, but it is notable when reliable news sources report that it disputes the designation. The news source itself doesn't have to (and really shouldn't) dispute the label on behalf of the group so labeled. Badmintonhist (talk) 12:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

If the SPLC calls the KKK a hate group and the KKK denies it, the latter is well within WP:RS, as the KKK is generally a reliable primary source about its own statements. Having said that, there is still no reason to report this, as it's only to be expected; find me a hate group that accepts the label! Now, if the NYT reports that the KKK denies being a hate group, it's a reliable secondary source, but it still doesn't make the claim any more notable or relevant. Only if the NYT were to say (even in an opinion piece), that the KKK doesn't deserve to be called a hate group would we have any good reason to mention the denial. Dylan Flaherty 13:50, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

You're simply wrong here Dylan. Notability for the purposes of Wikipedia is established when reliable sources publish the information. That being said, it doesn't mean that if, say, the Washington Post reports that a Klan group is disputing its SPLC designation as a hate group then Wikipedia editors are obliged to include this info in the article. We can still take other factors into account such as due weight and generally use our editorial discretion. However we could not properly say that the info had not met notability requirements. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:19, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed addition to 'Hate group listings' subsection

In November 2010, the SPLC designated as hate groups several organizations that oppose same-sex marriage. Responses by effected organizations include "The left's smear campaign of conservatives is . . . being driven by the clear evidence that the American public is losing patience with their radical policy agenda as seen in the recent election and in the fact that every state . . . that has had the opportunity to defend the natural definition of marriage has done so" by Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, and "The whole idea that somehow those folks who stand up for traditional marriage, like the Family Research Council, are hateful is wrong. [The law center is] trying to marginalize and intimidate folks for standing up for marriage and also trying to equate them somehow to the KKK" by Brian Brown of the National Organization for Marriage. The Family Research Council ran an open letter advertisement December 2010 in two Washington, DC newspapers signed by, among others, John Boehner, incoming Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, Eric Cantor, incoming House Majority Leader, Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, and Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal. The open letter ad said:

The surest sign one is losing a debate is to resort to character assassination. The Southern Poverty Law Center, a liberal fundraising machine whose tactics have been condemned by observers across the political spectrum, is doing just that...We, the undersigned, stand in solidarity with Family Research Council, American Family Association, Concerned Women of America, National Organization for Marriage, Liberty Counsel and other pro-family organizations that are working to protect and promote natural marriage and family. We support the vigorous but responsible exercise of the First Amendment rights of free speech and religious liberty that are the birthright of all Americans.

The SPLC responded to the open letter, saying:

Despite the claims made in today’s statement, the SPLC’s listings are not in any way intended to suppress these groups’ free speech. We’re not asking that these groups be silenced or punished in any way. What we are doing is calling them out for their lies. There is nothing wrong with labeling an organization a hate group based on what they say. A simple example illustrates the point: If a neo-Nazi group said all Jews are “vermin,” no one would argue with our characterizing it as a hate group.

References:

• The Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/24/AR2010112407042.html
• The Daily Caller: http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/15/family-research-council-top-gop-lawmakers-fight-back-against-splc-hate-group-label/
• Slate: http://www.slate.com/BLOGS/blogs/weigel/archive/2010/12/15/boehner-cantor-bachmann-pence-and-more-against-the-southern-poverty-law-center.aspx
• SPLC: http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/12/15/splc-responds-to-attack-by-frc-conservative-republicans/

Drrll (talk) 11:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Any comments? The language is a starting point for what's included. Including this doesn't mean that we need to include responses from every group designated as a hate group. This is a special case for the following reasons:

1. The information comes from secondary reliable sources, not the primary websites of the relevant organizations
2. These organizations received support from prominent public figures, including Governors and the incoming Speaker of the U. S. House
3. The organizations were designated hate groups solely by the SPLC and not by the ADL
4. The SPLC actually bothered to issue a lengthy response to the FRC and its supporters
5. I don't believe that anyone here would support including responses by other organizations

Drrll (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Just one very minor point: The open letter refers to "Concerned Women of America". The correct name of that organization is Concerned Women for America. Please double-check the open letter, and if you quoted it correctly, then I suggest adding "[sic]" right after "Concerned Women of America". Thanks. --Art Smart ^Chart/Heart 18:26, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right. Both the open letter ad and the source that report the ad (Slate) use the incorrect name Concerned Women of America. As you said, that should be noted with [sic]. Drrll (talk) 01:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason to single out this particular group (or category of groups) for prominence in this article. I imagine ALL of the various hate groups deny that they are hate groups. Rather than being simply a denial of being a hate group, the material cited is a full blown political attack on the SPLC that has very little to do with the reasons cited by the SPLC in designating the group as a hate group. Responding to the special case argument point by point:

1. It is irrelevant where the charges against the SPLC were repeated. The charges still come from the hate group itself. An article in the Washington Post about the flat earth society would not suddenly make their opinions reliable sources for scientific wikipedia articles.
2. The "prominent public figures" are nothing more than right wing politicians expressing a political view that appeals to their political base. None of them stand alone as reliable sources for analyzing the SPLC.
3. The ADL does not, as far as I am aware, maintain a comprehensive list of hate groups comparable to the SPLC list. Not that this is relevant in the first place.
4. The SPLC routinely responds to attacks levied against it. The situation here is hardly unique. If the material were included, then what should also be included is not just the SPLC denial but the detailed charges that the SPLC actually made. This would greatly expand the size of the section.
5. You are exactly right when you say "I don't believe that anyone here would support including responses by other organizations." Nor should we treat this one as an exception. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:55, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I happen to think that the proposed addition by my friend Drrll is rather lengthy and should be abbreviated by summarizing the tiff between the two organizations. The North Shoreman's objections don't amount to much. The first is flawed in about every way that two short statements could be flawed except, I think, for grammar. "Where the charges against the SPLC were repeated" IS relevant because that is how their notability is established. Whether or not those charges originally came from the "hate group" itself (the North Shoreman is fond of treating assertions made by the SPLC as objective fact), is irrelevant in regards to notability. Due weight is another matter, one that largely involves editorial discretion. The "flat earth" nonsense is embarrassing. None of this involves scientific fact; neither the SPLC's assertion about the FRC nor the FRC's denial. We are not determining here, whether or not to lend credibility to a bogus scientific theory. However, as a matter of interest, were the WaPo to publish a story on the Flat Earth Society rejection of the Round Earth Society's charges against it might very well be worth a mention in a Wikipedia article about the latter. As for the NSM's next point about the PPF's (aka RWP's ) not being "reliable sources for analyzing the SPLC," they don't have to be, the fact that WaPo finds them worth quoting is good enough in terms of notability. Badmintonhist (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you read what you link to? If you did, you should have discovered that notability has no application to this discussion. It clearly states, "Notability does not directly affect the content of articles, but only their existence." So everything you just said about the relevance of including material in this article relying on that article is irrelevant. The REAL ISSUE remains whether or not the opinions you want to include are HELD by a reliable source.

As far as your embarrassment about the Flat Earth Society, you should note that your link to Due weight uses the flat earth analogy in pretty much the same way as I do. It is not an issue of scientific fact but one of "the view of a distinct minority." The editorial decision to be made is why should the view of one of 900 different hate groups be presented in this article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:55, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, you got me on notability. Make it reliability then. The fact that the FRC's denial has been published byreliable sources makes it eligible for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. That fact and due weight are why we are not then obliged to publish hate group denials coming from, say, The Sons of the Aryan Resistance. As for the "distinct minority" you are referring to, isn't one their number about to become Speaker of the House of Representatives? Badmintonhist (talk) 21:18, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

You'll have to provide a direct quote from wikipedia policy or guidelines that states that otherwise unreliable sources become reliable simply because they are reported in a reliable newspaper. As I've stated elsewhere, WP:NEWSORG applies here -- specifically "When taking information from opinion pieces, the identity of the author may be a strong factor in determining reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint than the opinions of others."There is no doubt that the Post article is reliable for the fact that the claims were made, but there is every doubt in the world that the claims themselves are reliable enough sources for inclusion in this article.

As far as Boehner, he was, I'm sure, speaking for himself and not for the Republican Party. As far as I know, the FRC platform has not been incorporated into any official GOP policy statements or platforms. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:28, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

As John McEnroe might say, "You cannot be serious!" You are making up your own category here, "reliable sources on matters of hate groups" and, apparently, populating it with one source, the SPLC itself. In fact, from Wikipedia's standpoint, there is no such thing as a reliable or unreliable source for designating hate groups. There are, however, reliable sources concerning news about groups that see themselves as the arbiters on matters of "hate" and the Washington Post is one such reliable source. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Non-responsive and inaccurate. Look up "arbiter". The Washington Post only reported the FRC press release -- it didn't endorse it or condemn it. As to your other claim, there certainly is, from a wikipedia standpoint, a "reliable ... source for designating hate groups -- the SPLC. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, as noted before, reliable sourcing shows the SPLC is almost universally accepted as the authority on hate groups (by academia, the media, and even our own government... everyone, it seems, except the hate groups themselves).  :) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:15, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Really!? Show me where Wikipedia thusly designates the SPLC. Wikipedia rules and guidlines talk about reliable published sources in general but where do they make the SPLC the official designator of the groups that Wikipedia will officially consider to be hate groups? Badmintonhist (talk) 22:18, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

The use of the SPLC as a reliable source has been established by a community wide consensus covering any number of articles. Why else do you think it is referenced in articles such as this one [12]. Click on "What links here" if you are honestly unaware of the many uses of the SPLC as a reliable source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, no! Let's not confuse two very, very different things, editors are perfectly free to note the the the SPLC has designated some organization as a hate group. The SPLC is (like just about any other organization) a reliable source as to its own opinions. Moreover, those opinions are often covered by reliable secondary sources and thus are perfectly acceptable to use in Wikipedia articles. That, however, is a far cry from what you have been suggesting here which is that designation as a hate group is a kind of mark of Caine and that a "hate group" contesting such a designation is, for Wikipedia's purposes, impossible unless some organization whose stature in the area of hate group designations is GREAT INDEED comes to the marked groups rescue. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I get it -- you don't like wikipedia's reliable source policy. You do state YOUR PROBLEM accurately, however. Any criticism of the SPLC must come from a reliable source. The FRC is not a reliable source.

Your point that "The SPLC is (like just about any other organization) a reliable source as to its own opinions" is extremely misleading. SPLC labeling is used because the organization itself is considered a reliable source (note that "reliable" and "accurate" are not synonymous). "Any other organization" stands or falls as a reliable source based on its ability to meet reliable source standards. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:09, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

As I count currently, the article now includes criticism of the SPLC from the American Institute of Philanthropy, the Montgomery Advertiser, Harper's Magazine, The Nation, and FrontPageMagazine.com. Only the first of these criticisms seems to involve a cold matter of fact (although, I suppose what constitutes a failing grade in the eyes of the American Institute of Philanthropy might be considered subjective), the rest are decidedly subjective, as is the opinion of the FRC as to whether the SPLC should have designated it as a hate group, and the FRC is considered a reliable source as to its own opinions. When that opinion is covered (it doesn't have to be endorsed) by WaPO, a reliable news source, Wikipedia reliable source requirements have been met. If you don't think due weight standards have been met, that is a different issue. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

The current section on finances is extremely unencyclopedic and you will find in the very recent archives my proposal to eliminate much of this material. More importantly, however, you continue to misstate wikipedia policy on reliable sources. The section that applies to the FRC is at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves where it says:

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1. the material is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

The FRC claims obviously fail to meet criteria number 2. You have failed to demonstrate, as I had asked previously, where wikipedia policy says that otherwise non-reliable sources can be used simply if they are reported as news by a reliable source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you're asking for an impossibly high standard of sourcing that doesn't exist in WP policy or practice. Something doesn't have to be a reliable source itself to be included in WP articles; it just has to be sourced to a reliable source. If such a standard were required in WP, most articles would be gutted.

You're right that we should include the SPLC's reasons for designating these groups as hate groups. The problem is, the reasons aren't clearly spelled out in the individual profiles of the organizations designated as such as far as I can see. For example, for the FRC, the only thing that could qualify as meeting the SPLC's criteria for being a hate group ("Generally, the SPLC’s listings of these groups is based on their propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities — and repeated, groundless name-calling") would be their claim that pedophilia is more prevalent among gay men. Because we don't have the SPLC's specific reasons for designating these groups as hate groups, I suggest that we include their general criteria for designation and include specifics about the groups from secondary sources.

Badmintonhist, I see how that my proposal could be considered long--I laid it out as a starting point. For example, the four lengthy quotes could be shortened. Drrll (talk) 02:51, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The bottom line is that you can't argue that the FRC meets reliable source standards. Despite this, you are claiming that it becomes reliable simply because a reliable source picks repeats part of the claim. Nothing in wikipedia policy backs you up. The only thing that the reliable source has confirmed is that the FRC paid to have the info. published in an advertisement -- the reliability of the information itself still falls back to the FRC. In attributing the material you cannot say that "The Washington Post says..."; you have to say that "The FRC says ... ." The FRC is not a reliable source.

The claim that this is "an impossibly high standard" whose result would be that "most articles would be gutted" is not even close to true. All of the articles I watch (I'm up to 1,839) do quite nicely without needing to convert non-reliable sources into reliable sources by the intervention of a third party. If you want to say, to use one of your proposals, that "[The law center is] trying to marginalize and intimidate folks for standing up for marriage and also trying to equate them somehow to the KKK", then you need to attribute that to a reliable source. The fact is that you can't do that and your efforts to backdoor the statement are nothing but smoke and mirrors. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 04:28, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah, back from knocking 'em dead on the karaoke circuit, I'll address my slightly younger colleague's latest argument. The onus to convince fellow editors that sources not deemed reliable on a particular subject should never be used when quoted, paraphrased, or otherwise represented by by reliable source on that subject is decidedly on you and those editors who support your position. For starters, as Drrll tells us, it is commonly done throughout Wikipedia and for good reason. President Obama for example is not a reliable source on, say, Fox News, however if President Obama were to make a pithy comment about Fox News which was picked up by major news sources (as, of course, it would be) then we at Wikipedia would have the WP:RS we need to include it in the article on the Fox News Channel; not to assert Mr. Obama's opinion as fact, of course, but to include as fact that he expressed the opinion. By the standard that the North Shoreman asserts, all sorts of valuable and reliable information would be purged from our noble project. All this being said, going back to my original comment about Drrll's proposal, I did mention that it should be shortened considerably and thus extensive quotes about the SPLC by the FRC would be unnecessary. Badmintonhist (talk) 05:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Wrong again. The burden of establishing that material is attributed to a reliable source rests with the party attempting to add the material -- see WP:BURDEN. With your lax standards, wikipedia would rapidly become filled with all kinds of non-encyclopedic gossip, rumors, and attacks from hate groups. Just because something is repeated by a newspaper does not justify its inclusion in a wikipedia article and nothing in wikipedia policy says otherwise.

The Obama example is not on point and is a matter of WEIGHT. When the POTUS says something it may be worthwhile including the fact that it was said. When one out of 900 hate groups objects to its classification, this is not worth mentioning. As I said before, ALL hate groups probably object to being classified as hate groups. When a reliable source starts making the same charges that the FRC has, then it might be worth including the charges in the article.

Furthermore, there is also nothing "pithy" about the proposed addition. What Drrl proposes is adding attack language unsupported by any reliable source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 05:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Nothing too pithy about what the North Shoreman is asserting here, either. He seems to want it both ways. First he asserts the existence of a supposed rule which, if it could reasonably be said have ever existed in Wikipedia, has long since become more honored in the breach than in the observance. Then he claims that an exception to this rule could be made in the case of something said by the POTUS as a matter of due weight. But due weight is not used in Wikipedia to allow us to waive other Wikipedia rules. It is used after other rules and guidlines have been observed to adjust the emphasis given to particular information. Moreover, his exception made for the (current?) President seems rather partisan when he would deny this ad hoc "rule" for something said by the presumptive incoming Speaker of the House. Badmintonhist (talk) 07:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

So now in addition to ignoring Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources you want to ignore NPOV, which wP:WEIGHT is a part of. You want to give undue emphasis to the opinion of one out of over 900 identified hate groups that happens to currently be in the news, despite this warning from the NPOV Policy:

"An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."

And you want to make claims attacking the SPLC that are not supported by any reliable sources. Let's not overlook the fact that everyone seems to agree with -- the FRC's political opinion's do not meet reliable source criteria. You want to play games with wikipedia rules in an effort to bypass reliable source criteria. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

PS Another problem with the proposal is that the language does not adequately describe the SPLC position. This SPLC article [13] covers this in detail and should be incorporated into the article if the FRC is mentioned at all. WP:WEIGHT requires that "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint." Even a one sentence statement by the FRC would justify listing all 10 of the myths, with brief explanations of each, that the FRC and other anti-gay groups promote. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

PPS At [14] there is an interesting article showing that the FRC is even rejecting the majority of the GOP -- more indication that it is a fringe group outside of even the mainstream conservative movement. How dare the GOP allow GOProud to actually attend GOP functions! We can now add Grover Norquist to the SPLC as too liberal for the FRC.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:56, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Editor Drrll was being too polite when he said that the North Shoreman was asking for "an impossibly high standard" for sourcing. He is actually asking for an impossibly disingenuous one that he, himself, has undoubtedly violated many times in his ventures into historical topics. By the "standard" that he is proposing here we couldn't quote Pepsi about Coke or Coke about Pepsi. We couldn't tell what Lincoln said about Douglas, what Montgomery said about Eisenhower (or vice versa), or what Joseph Welch said about Joe McCarthy. In the case at hand, reliable sources are conveying the fact that there is a dispute between two fairly prominent political organizations. Disputes have at least two sides. Badmintonhist (talk) 15:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Wrong again -- and I note that you continue to ignore the issues of undue weight and fringe. We certainly can say, "According to David Herbert Donald, Lincoln said that Stephen Douglas was part of a pro-slavery conspiracy that included President Buchanan and Justice Taney." Donald is a reliable source. What we can't say, and what you would want us to say is that ""According to the FRC, Lincoln said that Stephen Douglas was part of a pro-slavery conspiracy that included President Buchanan and Justice Taney." The FRC is not a reliable source about much of anything. And adding "The Washington Post said that the FRC said that Lincoln said that Stephen Douglas was part of a pro-slavery conspiracy that included President Buchanan and Justice Taney" in no way makes the material suitable for an article on Abraham Lincoln. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Nope! The FRC is not a source that we at Wikipedia would likely be quoting, even indirectly, for information on Lincoln's attitude toward Douglas, Buchanan, or Taney. Neither, for that matter is the SPLC. Let's skip the reductio ad absurdum. The FRC, a fairly prominent political org. was attacked by the SPLC, another fairly prominent political org., and responded to the attack. The SPLC's designation of the FRC as a "hate group" was seen as newsworthy by reliable sources such as WaPo largely because the FRC had not generally been seen as a "fringe" group. This wasn't perceived as the same thing as the SPLC attacking some Klan group. The exchange of fire between the two groups was considered newsworthy precisely because "new ground" had been reached. The North Shoreman seems to be proceeding along the lines that whenever an organization is designated as a hate group by the SPLC, perhaps the American Enterprise Institute next, said group is then relegated to the "fringe" and under WP:DUE its response cannot be entered into Wikipedia even by way of the most reliable of sources. How convenient! Badmintonhist (talk) 17:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Nope back at you. The FRC is a fringe group because it is to the right of an ultra-conservative like Grover Norquist and because it promotes bigotted, non-scientific attacks on gays. Or do you buy into the 10 myths promoted by the FRC and its ilk (see [15] or consider it mainstream? The SPLC is not a political organization -- read the article -- and its prominence easily outdistances the FRC. Your take on why the Post covered the dispute is irrelevant and your analysis of the dispute is original research. There is nothing new here -- the defense that "we're not as bad as the KKK" has been echoed by any number of groups and is irrelevant until a reliable source makes the case. The SPLC makes it clear that committing violence is not a requirement for being a hate group and the use of the KKK is simply setting up a strawman.

Your argument that the FRC's response can't be entered into the article is disingenuous. The article, as it exists, doesn't even mention the FRC. You keep failing to address the threshold issue of why this one group out of 900 deserves to be included in the article. As I've shown above, wikipedia policy warns against giving undue weight to a subject simply because it happens to be in the news for a few days. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

• Note: previous (recent) thread discussed the issue of singling out (two) specific groups in order to include their repsonses, with several editors there agreeing that instead a summary line of general objections would seem sufficient. -PrBeacon (talk) 00:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Now that you have I distinctly remember reading BeCritical's proposal and having no problem with it. Shame on me for failing to recognize that a consensus had been reached on excluding the FRC, but also shame on the other two folks I've been debating (Drrl and Badmintonhist) for also missing it -- both of them were active and commenting on the discussion page when the change was proposed and made. All things considered, it seems like everything that follows is moot. We have a clear majority that have expressed an opinion within the last two weeks that favor omitting any reference at all to the FRC -- I'll go with the consensus. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:40, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not at all surprising that some of these hate groups would object to being on the list. That doesn't mean their objections should be included in this article. Dlabtot (talk) 01:46, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

seeking outside input, RS/N

Tom, I took your theory about how that sources that are quoted in reliable sources must themselves be reliable sources to RSN. Please correct my representation of the issue if I didn't properly present your view. Drrll (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up -- I have added my 2 cents. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:28, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

How about his theory that the FRC is a fringe group "because it is to the right of an ultra-conservative like Grover Norquist"? Or would that be original research? Badmintonhist (talk) 18:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

We're required by wikipedia policy to determine whether sources are fringe or not. It would only be original research if I attempted to add it to an article on the FRC. So you apparently find the 10 Myths to be mainstream -- interesting. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:28, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Yup. The stuff that I write which is obviously not intended to be placed in a Wikipedia article is "orginal research," but the stuff that the NSM writes which is also not intended to be placed in a Wikipedia article "would only be original research if (he) attempted to add it to an article." Does the SCLC's "prominence easily outdistance" that of the FRC? I just got 410,000 Google responses to the latter as compared to 337,000 for the former. "Prominence," of course, is not the same as "prestige" but the NSM did use the term prominence. As for the SPLC's "10 Myths" article (which doesn't directly address the FRC) it is a polemic, a polemic not too different in tone or scholarship from the kinds of arguments it is responding to. Surely someone who fancies himself as an historian knows the difference between a polemic and and a scholarly work. Surely that someone doesn't see the SPLC's article as an even-handed scientific look at the nature of homosexuality. As for the SPLC not being a "political organization" in the broad sense, well, go right on dreaming. Badmintonhist (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

As to whether the FRC is fringe or not, on the "prominence" front, that Washington Post article calls them "prominent." In 2007, all major Republican presidential candidates spoke at their forum and we have the 2010 open letter signed by the incoming House Speaker and four governors. Those are not indicators of a fringe organization. As to the "10 Myths" by the SPLC, only the first myth in the list even mentions the FRC. Drrll (talk) 22:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Just a reminder, but it was your suggestion here [16] that we include the SPLC's "general criteria". There is a parallel list of myths actually put out by the FRC -- it was referenced in the noticeboard discussion that you initiated. It is these non-scientific, bigoted claims that place the FRC, IMO, as a fringe group. A far as its SPLC criticism, this also appears to be fringe -- nobody has been able to find any actual reliable sources that make the type of attacks that the FRC has made.

The proposal was made on the noticeboard that we simply include a statement such as "Some of the groups on the list have denied being hate groups and have criticized a perceived left or liberal agenda of the SPLC." Seems like a fair resolution -- especially since the article contained such a statement until very recently. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

In other words it's a fringe group because you don't like it. Probably has ideas about homosexuality that are similar to your parents and mine. That being said, believe it or not, I'm fine with your suggestion here, North Shoreman. My only caveat would be if the issue of the SPLC's expanded view of "hate groups" continues to make significant political news covered in reliable sources then the treatment of it in our article could be expanded. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

How about (incorporating the SPLC's side, the proposed statement from WP:RSN, and a mention of support of the FRC by prominent public figures):

In November 2010, the SPLC designated as hate groups several organizations that oppose same-sex marriage, saying it was "based on their propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities — and repeated, groundless name-calling". Some of the groups on the list have denied being hate groups and have criticized a perceived left or liberal agenda of the SPLC. The list included the prominent Family Research Council, saying that the organization "pushed false accusations linking gay men to pedophilia." The FRC ran an open letter advertisement December 2010 in two Washington, DC newspapers signed by, among others, John Boehner, incoming Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives and Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty.

Drrll (talk) 00:40, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

This is basically okay with me as well, Drrll, except that I would leave out the adjective "prominent" before "Family Research Council" as well as the additional specific rationale for the SPLC classifying the FRC as a hate group. "Based on their propagation of known falsehoods . . . etc." is good enough. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

While I have problems with both suggestions, the point is moot. A clear consensus was reached on December 19 to exclude the FRC from the article -- a consensus that I add my voice to. See the recent edit above by PrBeacon and my response -- it is way too soon for the three of us to reverse a consensus on a discussion that we neglected to participate in. I consider it dead unless some new voices supporting inclusion come along. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

A consensus may have been reached then, but shortly thereafter at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Southern_Poverty_Law_Center#SPLC_character_assassination_denounced , others (including BeCritical and Kim) agreed that the new development of public support of the FRC should be mentioned. Drrll (talk) 02:04, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Re using google to establish prominence, see WP:MAINSTREAM. That essay really clears up any misconceptions about what "prominence" means at WP. In an extreme case, a national organization that most people know about and whose positions most people agree with can be wp:fringe. Tom said "It is these non-scientific, bigoted claims that place the FRC, IMO, as a fringe group," and that's exactly right, not because those opinions are wrong, but because they are said to be wrong by RS. Badmintonhist is correct when he says "My only caveat would be if the issue of the SPLC's expanded view of "hate groups" continues to make significant political news covered in reliable sources then the treatment of it in our article could be expanded." Tim Pawlenty's text looks good. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:43, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually I'm playing catchup both with wikipedia and the internet. I was offline by choice and ignoring television for about a week. Checking Google news today it seems that the reporting of the "controversy" have already disappeared from tradition news sources although some websites seem to also be playing catchup. It was the paid ad, not the SPLC determination, that generated a flurry of activity and that is unlikely to repeat itself -- especially since this all occurred in a dead news cycle.

The issue becomes what weight to we give to the FRC. To quote Kim, who Drrl mentions, "Yeah, what we see is source after source of hate-groups whining about being called a hate group." This seems to leave us with the proposal made by someone on the noticeboard -- add ""Some of the groups on the list have denied being hate groups and have criticized a perceived left or liberal agenda of the SPLC" and move on.

I'm not sure what your reference to Pawlenty is supposed to mean, but his only role was signing the paid ad, agreeing with the FRC. Opinions by politicians, especially those running for president, don't strike me as reliable sources. Besides, as the source I quoted elsewhere shows, the FRC and the GOP are, as we speak, apparently splitting over gay rights issues.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:22, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

PS I noticed what you added to the noticeboard. We have five paragraphs on hate groups. One is simply a count by category. Proportionate representation for the hate groups position in general is probably the single sentence I mentioned above. The neo-confederate movement has, for unknown reasons, a separate paragraph, so perhaps that deserves a single sentence rebuttal such as the response by the CofCC that was removed. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 04:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

'prominence' is not relevant. It's not part of our policies or guidelines. Dlabtot (talk) 03:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually "prominence" is part of NPOV -- see WP:UNDUE. This says, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint." As it applies here, we have designated hate groups, none of which stand alone as reliable sources, criticizing the SPLC while mainstream sources support the SPLC's determinations and, more often than not, refer to the SPLC designation routinely whenever the designated hate groups are discussed. The positive references in reliable sources are numerous; the negative are close to non-existent -- our article should reflect this proportion. The most recent proposal by Drrl is flawed because it attempts to give equal proportion to the SPLC and the FRC analysis. The SPLC position has been around for over a decade; the FRC weighed in on the topic of hate groups this month. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:35, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Criticism or controversy section

I was on the edge about suggesting this before, as it's usually better (I think per MOS) to keep criticism and controversy in-line. However, especially with the section above, there seem to be a significant number of reliable sources which are critical of the SPLC, and which would be disruptive to the general flow of the article if not focused into a summary. So what do people think of putting most of the critical material (such as financial section and new info) in its own section? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:40, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Fine with me, as long as we have two separate criticism sub headers, one by groups listed by them as hate groups, and one from third parties. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:19, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

As of this revision, why does the "Finances" section begin with criticisms of SPLC's finances and center largely around them? Why not call the section "Criticisms of the SPLC's finances" or similar? Or maybe, perhaps more consistently with WP:NPOV, why not begin with a summary of SPLC's finances and then get to the criticisms of what some regard as excess holdings and fundraising costs? ... Kenosis (talk) 22:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, but I'm suggesting there are enough criticisms they need their own section; and probably our sources mainly cover criticism in this area. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 22:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not fond of the idea of a criticism ghetto. There's not much criticism that belongs in the article -- we don't need a long list of "Sons of Aryan Death denies being a hate group as does Cousins of White Power Hour, as does..." -- and it's best to deal with it briefly and in context. Dylan Flaherty 01:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually I dug up a few more RS which criticize [17] [18] as well as info supportive of SPLC like the FBI stuff, and now we have the congressional stuff. It's not a ghetto, it's keeping the article from becoming a criticism/response. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm reading through these while looking up information. The first article talks about an org named "We are Change" that was branded a hate group. On the one hand, it does claim to be peaceful. On the other, they're 9/11 "truthers", which is a fringe (chiefly) Libertarian view that does indeed enable right-wing extremism. I was unable to find a site for "We the People" (even after plugging in the quoted statement). As for Republic of Texas secessionists, the complaint seems to be that they were slow in adding them to the list, not that the label is wrong. It complains that the Hutaree, all of whom are imprisoned, were not listed, and it also repeats an accusation about the Pulitzer Prize thing. It quotes a zinger out of Ken Silverstein's piece for Harper's, but I can't find the original article to get some context. Finally, it quotes a much milder complaint by Alexander Cockburn. Frankly, if this were in a Wikipedia article, we'd be laughing at it for undue synthesis, but I guess all's fair in journalism.

Where's all this coming from? Well, this is an opinion piece from the New America Foundation. The NEF is a radical-center org, whose goal is to play down the left/right dichotomy, which is what the SPLC plays up. There's the bias right there, as well as a question of notability.

The second article is an opinion piece from National Catholic Reporter, whose web site is practically blank, but does have an article here that calls it a liberal Catholic paper. In any case, it has complaints about how successful the SPLC is at getting contributions, but doesn't seem to be suggesting that they inaccurately label hate groups. Their main concern is that, by highlighting web sites of hate groups, this will lead to censorship. While this is a reasonable concern, the decade since the article was published do not seem to support it.

I'm not averse to including criticism, but I hope we can do better than this. Dylan Flaherty 04:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

L::::I do not think it improves article to scour the internet for critisms. The fact that it is so hard to find criticism of the SPLC, and that it all comes from fringe groups, means that it lacks notability. The comment by Laird Wilcox is of signicance because it was published in a major book about political extremism, but it does not seem to have attracted any attention outside the far right itself. An opinion piece, such as the one from the Christian Science Monitor, is not a reliable source except for the opinions of its writer. TFD (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

This "fringe" mantra is silly, especially if it is meant to imply that criticism of the SPLC is limited to the right-wing fringe. Periodicals such as Harper's and the Nation are not on the right-wing fringe. Folks such Millard Fuller, Stephen Bright, Ken Silverstein, and Alexander Cockburn are not the right-wing fringe. The description of the SPLC as "controversial" is not right-wing when it comes from the Washington Post. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

"Controversial" is not a criticism; it's an observation that the thing has been criticized by others. Roscelese (talk) 19:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and do you think that WaPo would bother with that "observation" if it were only fringe groups who were criticizing the SPLC? Badmintonhist (talk) 19:31, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Based on the current state of the news media? Yup. But my opinion isn't what matters - does the WaPo article go into detail? Roscelese (talk) 19:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Nope. But Silverstein, Cockburn, Bright and other progressives do. In fact, the bitterest criticism of Dees and his outfit comes from folks one might think would be his ideological allies. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The criticism definitely does not all come from fringe groups. Some of it is from highly reliable sources, as already reflected in the article. Christian Science Monitor and National Catholic Reporter are pretty good sources, even if they are opinion pieces, which of course are regularly used on Wikipedia when from RS and with attribution. But let's say that the opinion pieces alone would be insufficient for inclusion: they are not alone, but rather build upon or analyze other more reliable sources we have, such as the Advertiser. Of course we shouldn't scour the web for criticism, but we should not ignore it from reliable sources either. We should note the fringe group complaints, and we should give appropriate coverage to the RS criticisms and things like Congressmen signing criticisms. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

And let's be realistic. There is a real and quite legitimate concern that an article like this could turn into either a fawning advertisement or a hit piece. However, given recent developments with reliable sources, that is just not going to happen. Yes, we/I found more RS critical of the SPLC, but also more to say which has greatly strengthened its high standing in scholarly and official circles. So people, please relax a bit here, we're doing fine. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is a lengthier article from Slate about the controversy. TFD (talk) 21:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Slate.com is normally considered an RS, but I'm not so sure about the Slate blogs. However David Weigel seems to be a reliable journalist, per a quick perusal of his article. He seems to be lefty, not righty, which I mention because one would normally consider SPLC a lefty. So I don't find a problem with using this as an RS. Nice find. Anyone else? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:27, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

The mainstream view of the SPLC is that it is a respected organization that accurately identifies groups that promote hatred against minorities. That view is shared by Fox News and the FBI. While these groups dislike the categorization, we cannot give the same parity to their positions. TFD (talk) 17:06, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Correct, but there isn't a question of doing so on this talk page. The criticism section would be from RS, and not do anything besides a bare mention of the fact that hate groups sometimes don't like the designation. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 17:23, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a longstanding consensus against such a section and I don't see any reason to change this. It is fine to say that "The criticism section would be from RS", but nobody has shown that such sources actually exist. What reliable sources not already included in the article need to be added to the article in this new section? Every time this question gets asked the only response is the same old listing of opinions from political commentators from the right wing. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:01, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, When one of the main points of criticism is that SPLC has moved from its original mission to becoming more of a left wing attack dog group, that they are more interested in silencing debate from those whom they disagree with then its core mission, who is the criticism going to come from but the right wing? If a acknowledged right wing journalist, wrote a obejective article giving explicit detail on how the SPLC's serious flaws, would you deny its value just cause of the writer political leanings? I want to understand what, in your mind, is a reliable source. Ucscottb4u (talk) 19:26, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I guess you haven't been keeping up with the discussion. The sources are listed above, but I'll try and consolidate them later today. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 19:29, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you but I think I'm up to speed. You are still presenting nothing but political editorial opinion. WP:NEWSORG seems to be on point and none of the authors cited fall into the category of "specialists and recognized experts." "Specialists and recognized experts" would consist of folks with academic credentials (such as the two scholarly articles that you have moved around) or practical experience (such as the FBI) in dealing with hate groups. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I admit I haven't but my point is more general. I have followed this for a while (atleast a year or two now) and consistently seen any attempt at honest criticism brushed aside, because the author of the criticism was "right wing." There are definetly issues with mission creep within the SPLC, how serious the issue is, is where the debate really should be.Ucscottb4u (talk) 19:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Rather than mission creep, the SPLC's mission has changed as the times have changed. The biggest change is the recognition of the dangers of hate speech as well as the attempted mainstreaming of such speech. The bottom line is still that regardless of the perception of the right wing, mainstream news organizations and academics continue to rely on the SPLC as an important and accurate source for information on hate groups. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

It does not matter whether critics are right-wing, but whether their criticism is informed. There are for example informed sources that criticize anti-hate laws in other countries. If they also criticized the activities of the SPLC in being anti-free speech then we could report that too. But no one has found any. TFD (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

more questionable edits

For previous (stale) discussion, see Talk:SPLC - Badmintonhist's proposed changes.

After other editors disputed an earlier round of edits, Badmintonhist responded with what appears to be a brush off. More recently he continued to remove and reword content without discussing here first. I have reverted and restored content from the following two edits:

1. 07:24, 26 December 2010 Badmintonhist (talk | contribs) (62,028 bytes) (→Hate group listings: The FBI lists the SPLC as a resource for information on hate groups BUT it does not specifically recommend the SPLC's list of hate groups.) [19]
2. 06:36, 29 December 2010 Badmintonhist (talk | contribs) (62,080 bytes) (→Criticism of overheated rhetoric: I think that this wording more accurately summarizes what is found in the source.) [20]

In the first one, instead of improving the content in question, he simply removed it as well as the reference to the FBI. I believe this kind of edit is meant to diminish the credibility of the SPLC. The second edit's changed wording reads like lawyerspeak and further diminishes the content's impact. Discussion in the thread above has not properly addressed specific edit summaries like this [21] "Take to Talk. Changes this big have to be explained in more detail" -- which, as BeCritical noted (above), "is disruptive of normal WP process, as he was reverting almost entirely [22] to the changes he himself had just made." Badmintonhist has not answered to that concern, one which I and others share. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The current formulation about the FBI & the SPLC says that the FBI recommends the SPLC's list of hate groups as a resource, but as Badmintonhist said, they do not specifically recommend the hate group list--they simply recommend the SPLC in general as a resource on hate groups (linking to the SPLC's homepage). Drrll (talk) 01:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

The appropriate response would have been to correct the entry, as PrBeacon did rather easily, rather than delete it -- especially since the addition of the material was agreed to (if I remember correctly) by four editors with no negative opinions voiced. I believe even Bad himself at some point advocated adding the FBI.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:40, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, except he didn't do it properly and as it stands now it's still incorrect. The FBI website lists the SPLC as a resource. It doesn't list the SPLC's list of hate groups as resource. See the difference. I don't really blame Beacon, however. He needs practice actually editing articles rather than being mainly a heckler and kibbitzer on talk pages, and I'm rather proud of him for attempting to do some substantive editing here. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Article Lead -- Version 1.1 Revisited

Somehow the lead got changed apparently w/o any discussion and certainly w/o us ever reaching consensus. I am repeating what I wrote earlier since it received some favorable response. The discussion is back in archive 5. The following is my proposal:

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is an American nonprofit civil rights organization internationally known for its free legal defense of hate group victims, monitoring of hate groups and their activities, and educational programs promoting tolerance. The SPLC classifies as hate groups those organizations which denigrate or assault entire groups of people for attributes which are beyond their control. SPLC publishes a quarterly Intelligence Report that investigates extremism and hate crimes in the United States.

The SPLC was founded in 1971 by Morris Dees and Joseph J. Levin Jr. as a civil rights law firm based in Montgomery, Alabama. They were quickly joined by civil rights leader Julian Bond who served as president of the board from 1971 to 1979. Its litigating strategy involved filing civil suits for damages on behalf of victims of discrimination with the goal of financially damaging the groups and individuals who directed the discrimination. While they originally focused on the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacists, throughout the years they have become involved in cases concerning illegal segregation by groups such as the YMCA and Alabama State Police, welfare rights, work place rights for women, the constitutionality of the death penalty and its disparate application to African Americans, and the rights of adequate representation for poor African Americans in criminal trials.

I would also suggest a third paragraph that would focus on a summary of the history and current state of the SPLC's education programs and a fourth paragraph (see [23]) for guidelines on the size of a lead section) that summarizes the section on "Tracking of hate groups".

It was properly pointed out that "welfare rights, the rights of women, the death penalty, and the rights of criminal defendants" were not currently in the article. They should be -- this is the problem with working on the lead with the article in flux. The Encyclopedia of Alabama (see [24]) would be the source for this material -- it states:

Advocacy on behalf of women in the workplace and welfare recipients also resulted in landmark decisions. During this time, the organization also focused on the racially unbalanced death-row populations in U.S. prisons. SPLC provided legal representation in individual cases of poor black defendants who had not had the benefit of adequate counsel in their original trials. SPLC lawyers argued successfully before the U.S. Supreme Court that Alabama's laws regarding the death penalty were unconstitutional and won the freedom of 11 inmates in 1980.

A summary of this would be added in the subsection "Notable Cases"Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I changed the first paragraph [25] two weeks ago, based on talkpage discussion at the time as well as the previous change by User:K [26]. As I said in the edit summary, the then-second sentence ('The SPLC is internationally known...') made the quote ("dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society") mostly redundant, so other problems with it would be moot -- since I agree with other editors about trying to avoid quotes, per WP:LEAD, especially in the very first sentence. I also thought it worked well to include the home city in the first sentence..:

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is an American nonprofit civil rights organization based in Montgomery, Alabama.^[2] The SPLC is internationally known for its legal victories against white supremacist groups, its tolerance education programs and its tracking of hate groups, militias, and extremist organizations.^[3][4][5] The SPLC classifies as hate groups those organizations that it has determined "have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics."^[6]

As for the second and possibly third paragraph, I'd like to see that material worked into the body text first, as you've indicated. I would also support including the "dedicated" quote somewhere like the History section. Fwiw, I've tried rewriting the final sentence to eliminate the quote, but no luck so far. -PrBeacon (talk) 00:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

The lead is supposed to briefly encapsulate what is found in the body of the article. Welfare rights, workplace rights for women, the constitutionality of the death penalty, and the right to adequate counsel in criminal proceedings aren't in the body of the article now, so why bother with them? They can be added to the lead later, if and when they become part of the body. The body does talk about at least one religious Establishment Clause case and an immigration case. Why not mention those aspects of of the SPLC's efforts instead? Badmintonhist (talk) 01:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

On reopening discussion of the lead

I was happy enough with the one that existed about three edits ago. Not to pull any punches, the opening sentence now is an encyclopedic monstrosity. As for reopening discussion of the lead, it all depends on whether we want to be editors or whether we want to be complacent SPLC acolytes who were perfectly happy when much of the article was copied directly out of on-line SPLC publications. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC) P.S. Most of the plagiarism seems to have been the work of a self-styled history academic, though not our beloved North Shoreman. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

With that attitude, it looks like serious editors will need to work around you. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I tell it like it is, baby. You haven't exactly been Mr. Congeniality yourself, my fellow retiree. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)