Talk:Rugby union

Anyone agree with me that that's Jonny Wilkinson getting tackled in the picture at the top? Should the caption be changed? -Zsig

Oh, my aching sides...

actually, thinking about it, that one is quite funny. Hig Hertenfleurst 20:18, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

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Need cite for that quote

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There's nothing about the lions team (england, wales, ireland,scotland) touring in the south hemisphere. Also, it seems to me that the hooker has the number 1 in the team. LdM

Not according to the IRB. Where do you come from? There are some variations in the number scheme but I've not come across that one before.GordyB 10:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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This page really needs an explanation of the different rugby positions (tighthead prop, fly-half etc) and some introduction to the rules(!). cferrero I merged two such paragraphs and moved the data to the specialist article which has potential but needs work. Some of the info e.g. alternate names for positions now only exists on that page as it was too detailed for this page.GordyB 18:42, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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I changed "football" in this article to "soccer" due to rugby itself beging called "football" in its dominant areas (such as East Coast Australia and New Zealand). However, it appears this edit was reverted by User:Mintguy. On reflection, it is probably best to disambiguate better within the article than to choose one word over the other. However, in lieu of any explanation from Mintguy, I am left wondering as to why this has occured. Would anyone like to discuss this matter? - Mark 09:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There were two other references to association football in this article a single change to soccer was inconsistent, however, after making the edit and then reflecting on it, I was going to change it back from simply football to 'association football', but I'm having trouble with my monitor at the moment, whereby it cuts out when it overheats, and it did so at that moment. So I'll make the change now. Also this article needs a rewrite from the top because the first paragraph is completely wrong, association football didn't exist in Webb-Ellis's time, and it is now generally accepted that the story is a complete myth anyway see William Webb-Ellis. With my monitor trouble I'm not currently making major edits to articles. Mintguy (T) 16:34, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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I added a para to the description of the tackle before i had registered. I am now not sure that the description should be here or in the ruck and maul sections. There are one or two other things I will have a look at given the time in the next few days. All in all though, a good stab at explaining the peculiarities of the game. Casualobserver 14:30, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Tackle and the requirement for stationary

It is not a requirement that a tackled player be held stationary, nor that a player be held stationery before a maul commences, so I removed the references to this put in by moriori. dlt104

And I put them back. It is most definitely a requirement that a player is not tackled until he is stationary. Any player tackled before the tryline, but who still has momentum -- in other words is still moving and therefore is NOT stationary -- can slide over the line or reach out over the line to score a try. Players who have been flattened on the ground by a tackler, but who still have momentum and have not become stationary, can and do play on in all phases of play. Often. Moriori 08:32, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to argue, but having been a Society referee for the past 5 years I can state absolutely categorically that there is NO requirement for a player to be stationary before he is deemed to be tackled - check the lawbook. The only requirement is that the player be brought to ground and held. The momentum to which you refer is a specific exemption under Law 15.6(f). Players who are tackled, and not within reach of the goal-line, even if sliding, MUST comply with law. They may indeed not do so, but referees are liable to penalise them. This may seem an esoteric point, but if the reference to stationary remains then it will mislead readers as to what the Law actually says - and definatley does NOT require a player to be stationary before the tackle is deemed complete.

could someone add some stuff on turnovers?

Title Incorrect ?

Surely the title of this article should be "Rugby Union", not "Rugby union"? e.g. see first paragraph at the Website of the International Rugby Board, the official international governing body for the sport. It seems that a "Rugby Union" redirect page was created by User:Duncharris; - why was this article not renamed? --User:lolar 01:02, 9 Mar 2005

Because Duncharris is a prominent anti-capitalist. ;-) Chris 15:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It would seem wrong to write about Cricket, Table Tennis etc. I think that rugby union is the best way of writing it, consistent with other sports. Grinner 14:28, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

It shoudl be written Rugby Union in the title because its a TITLE! First letters of significant words are always capitalised in a title --Seb Belcher 22:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was under "Rugby Union" it was moved by Duncharris to Rugby union. Is he a league supporter? If you do not like the title it can be moved backPhilip Baird Shearer 08:51, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

What do Duncharris's opinion of rugby league have to with this? By naming the sport without capitals it allows us to distinguish between the sport (rugby union) and an organisation (Rugby Union). Same for rugby league. We should treat both codes the same, whatever. Grinner 10:14, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

If one has a tradition of using capitals and the other not, why do they have to be the same? BTW which organisation is called "Rugby Union"? Philip Baird Shearer 13:14, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I believe it refers to the Rugby Football Union (or indeed any other national union), which I have heard quite frequently shortened to 'the Rugby Union'. (edit) The game of rugby union is administered by Rugby Unions, as the game of association football is administered by Football Associations. Hig Hertenfleurst 16:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Rugby league does have a tradition of using capitals (Rugby League). One might say that this helps distinguish between Rugby League and a Rugby league. But I agree with Grinner, whichever is chosen for one should be used for the other. Peronally I prefered 'Rugby union' since a lot of articles already have union with a small 'u' in the title.GordyB 21:10, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Rugby Union is a NAME

Would any American write George bush?

Then why has this ludicrous naming concept been applied so that Rugby Union became categorised as Rugby union? Same thing. Rugby Union is the NAME of the sport and both words start with a capital letter. --Jack 21:28, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

• George Bush is a proper noun, and rugby union isn't. Rugby union is the name of a sport. It's not "I like playing Cricket and Swimming on the weekend" is it? Maybe I'm wrong, but we need to sort this out.--Commander Keane 06:56, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
  • I see nothing wrong with the sentence (apart from my spelling mistakes) "I like playing Rugby Union". I see "Rugby Union" as the name for the sport. The same with "Rugby League". The problem is, we've already put substantial effort into making things "rugby union" and "rugby league". But I'll admit, capitals do seem far more intuitive! POds 09:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll accept that both words should be lower case in mid-sentence: e.g., "Martin Johnson was a rugby union player" but if the sentence begins with the sport's name or if it is in a title, both words should begin with capitals. To have "Rugby union" as a title is just plain daft.--Jack 22:48, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

• Have you had a look at MoS:Naming? Admittedly, it doesn't really help me figure what we need to do for Rugby Union/Rugby union. --Commander Keane 10:34, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

See discussion in section above.GordyB 12:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Should we include a player positions diagram in this article?

There seems to be a little edit skirmish developing about whether to include a player positions digram here. I can't find any debate about this, so I am starting one now before things get nasty. --Etimbo | Talk 12:14, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is what the article looks like with a player positions diagram: [1]

This is what the article looks like without a player positions diagram: [2] --Etimbo | Talk 20:04, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Include a player positions diagram in this article

Rls 17:25, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC) I think the diagran serves as a useful overview to player positions in Rugby Union which is pretty integral to the sport and should not be relegated to the secondary article.

Do not include a player positions diagram in this article

--Etimbo | Talk 11:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC) I think it clutters up the article.

Related debate

There is a related debate about whether to have a template of player positions. Such a template could be useful if each position were given its own article. --Etimbo | Talk 19:44, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The debate is at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion.GordyB 12:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of the outcome of that debate, there is still a question as to whether this article should carry the diagram. Rls 17:25, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC)

I agree, the debate here is about whether to include player positions, not whether there should be a template. --Etimbo | Talk

The two are interrelated. If we decide to get rid of player positions then it has the knock-on effect of questioning whether the template is useful. It looks like the whole debate is going to get messy as there are so many issues that on the face of it are independent but are connected template or not template, player postions in the main article or not or articles dedicated to specific positions etc. Personally I like the status quo for this page.GordyB 22:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There are only two debates and four possible outcomes, so I don't see how it can get all that messy (unless there are other debates going on).

1. Include player positions diagram in this article, keep template
2. Include player positions diagram in this article, ditch the template
3. Do not include player positions diagram in this article, keep template (presumably for use elsewhere)
4. Do not include player positions diagram in this article, ditch the template

--Etimbo | Talk 09:01, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Whether or not Rugby union positions is split into seperate articles very much affects 2,3&4.GordyB 12:49, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tackle & Release

1st para: a tackled player is only required to release the ball if grounded. In a maul, the tackled player is permitted to continue carrying the ball.

Disorganised

The information on the page is good but it's jumbled and loosely kept together. I am concerned that there seems to be a section high up on the page which appears to be the 'Rules' of rugby, if that is the intention of the section then it is severely lacking, there are some VERY important points missing. The official rules of rugby union is a document over 150 pages long, it simply can't be abbreviated in this manner. The problem is that the list contains very specific explanations of certain aspects, i.e. Ruck, Mauls, Scrums and Line-outs but says nothing about Marks, penalties, offsides, dead balls etc. To a person wanting to learn about the technicalities of rugby this would be a misleading introduction.

Organisation for the Rugby Union section of Wiki

Obviously Rugby union is far too big a topic to fit onto one page if you want to do anything more than simply scratch the surface. I feel we need to break down the topic into several sub-articles and keep the main page short, infomative and objective with links off to the relevent sub-articles which go into more detail. Ideas for sub-articles:

Rules (official ones)

Team positions and responsibilities

Info about tournaments, leagues etc.

Glossary (technical) scrum, ruck, maul, mark, lineout etc.

Glossary (tactical/player slang) up & under, hangtime, dump tackle, zig-zag etc.

History of the game

Rugby Sevens

Please do not make wholesale changes to articles like this without discussing it first. There may need to be changes made to the structure but you should not delete other people's work like this without a discussion. Also can you sign your posts in the discussion section using four '~' symbols.GordyB 10:11, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What you have reverted it to was not even what it was when I edited it, when I came accross this page yesterday it was a 1/4 of the length it was now and written in a distinctly amateur fashion, all I did was alter the initial paragraph of the article, which isn't even on this version, I edited it in good faith and deleted nothing, check the updates before accusing me of such. Even what it is reverted to now I find problems with. Firstly the image, you can barely make out the players on the pitch, it in no way helps you understand how the game is played or what a game is like. Then by the second paragraph it gets immediately bogged down with the whole shamateurism issue, which asside from being very much in the past is not a very likely reason that a person would type 'Rugby Union' into an encyclopaedia, it's certainly not introductory paragraph stuff. Seb Belcher 14:52, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay if it was not you that vandalised the page that's different. If it happens in future check to see if the older version is better. Sorry for any accusation.

I agree with you re: the picture. The shamateurism thing could be moved to the history paragraph.GordyB 15:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Product "placement"

I hope Gilbert made a decent donation to wikipedia in return for the prominent advertising of their product at top left of article. Nurg 12:19, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

The picture is courtesy of Seb Belcher who also provided the other picture. I think it is extremely unlikely that he is an employee of Gilbert.GordyB 22:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

If there used to be a picture of a rugby ball, it might be a good idea to reinstate it for those who don't know what a 'prolate spheroid' looks like. Me, for example.Harry R 14:02, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Morgan Turinui

An article on this chap is now in VfD, anyone care too look and input on discussion, please see Wikipedia:Pages for deletion/Morgan Turinui. Alf 12:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Anglo-Welsh Cup

I've put this up for deletion. There have only been a couple of votes so far from non-regular contributors. Please vote.GordyB 11:21, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union

Came across this today. I'm only the third member. Regular contributors might want to think about signing up.GordyB 17:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

There are now 13 members and the project is coming along nicely. Still room for more particpants.GordyB 15:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Citing

I had a skim through this and other articles when I wanted to wikilink the word "citing" in an article. I can't find anything on Wikipedia about this, nor much about refereeing. I have just glossed the term in the article for now ("ie, reported following a game for events during it"), but if there is something I can link to, so much the better. Anyone happen to know? (Btw, if the rugby union portal is a better place to ask, just let me know, and I'll go there instead.) --Telsa ((t)(c)) 17:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I haven't come across an article on citing but it is overdue. PS: there is no Rugby Union portal as yet though it is being discussed so this is as good a place as any. Wikilink the word 'citing' and sooner or later an article will get written.GordyB 22:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Okey-doke, thanks. --Telsa ((t)(c)) 23:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

History

I think the history of Rugby should be moved up in this article (and probably shortened a bit). I also think that the introduction should be more general (ie without references to forward passing etc). I'm just going to make a few changes - I'm not generally involved in this article, so I'm mentioning it here so that, if you disagree, we can discuss it. Cheers. Cormaggio ^@ 16:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Base article on cricket

It probably the benchmark sports article on wiki!--Hamedog^Talk|@ 05:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Great edits Hamedog, you made a huge improvement. I also shuffled some things around to try and replicate the look of the Cricket article. By the way, I removed two images, the field (reading disclaimers on official RU sites, its probably not the best idea to use their images) and the ball (claimed as Copyright but free to use, but I dont think it was an appropriate tag). But yeah, great contributions! Forever young 09:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Rugby union competitions

At present I think too many competitions are listed. I propose deleting the section on Rugby Sevens competitions as this is not an article on Rugby Sevens. I also think those currently listed under 'Other tournaments' should go. Two of these are youth tournaments and I don't think we should list them here for reasons of space (otherwise another ten or so articles will end up here) and the other is a tournment which is notable only because the particpants are gay. I don't think it is well known enough to warrant inclusion. Thoughts please.GordyB 14:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe have link somewhere, possibly in the see also section, to a list of rugby competitions. It will remove the lists from rugby union. --Hamedog^Talk|@ 14:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Well would it be possible to create a main article on Rugby union competitions/tournaments? Right now, its really just a list, something that will be frowned upon if it were to be an FAC. How about we write maybe two paragraphs, that talk about;

• Competition structure, and its variants. e.g knock-out, qualification etc etc
• Levels. National , special , Club, province, sevens, schools, schoolboys etc etc.
  • Mention of three major competitions, RWC, 6N and TS
  • Mention S14 and Hein.Cup/Guin.Prem/whatever
  • Save everything else for main article...
• Importance. RWC as career highlight(?), stuff like that. (What about the lions for british players? --Hamedog^Talk|@ 00:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC))

The section there at present could become the structure of the Main Article. I don't know, just an idea, it could be more educational than what is currently there...? Forever young 15:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I thought that the backs were called "the girls".... Cheers!--Scaife ^(Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 03:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Nomination for Featured Article Status

Yes, it is a long shot. The reason I've nominated this article is because we do have the content. Hopefully we will get enough feedback on why we shouldn't be a FA that we can retool the article and bring it to FA status.

Rowlan 06:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

We need to go through peer review before being a featured article candidate. I lurk on both WP:PR and WP:FAC and I can tell you already what they'll say. There will be questions about the licensing of some of the images: one of them is noted as "free use, came from flickr", two others have a tag on them which has expired, and a fourth is "believed to be" okay to use. Copyediting will come up. Someone will want more references, and this will then degenerate into a row about whether footnotes are necessary and in what style they should be. On content: we don't have much about how many people watch it (in person or on telly) and in particular how many play in local clubs. It's all about the professional game. I think that's a pity. Something about what typical membership means would be good: how often is there training or a game? Culture (or lack of it, in the eyes of some!) -- is the "posh game" thing restricted to England? How many play/support it? Supporters mixing and drinking with each other instead of fighting each other. The whole drinking/touring aspect. What goes on tour stays on tour? I realise those are all somewhat UK-based perceptions. It would be lovely to have information about the game and its position in some of the other nations. Romania or Japan, say. Back to PR. Someone will pick holes in grammar and find at least one run-on sentence. Finally, when we have addressed all that, someone will then say "what a lot of changes, I don't think this article can be considered stable". Argh. :)

Erm, well, okay, perhaps not all of those, but at least some! I do think we have scope for something about playing/supporting it in the leagues that don't get televised, at a minimum.

Telsa (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

'Posh game' is not something restricted to England. Rugby union is a mass game only in a few places e.g. Wales, NZ, Pacific Islands and certain areas e.g. Limerick in Ireland. Eventually there will be Rugby union in x articles that will tackle the social dimension in each country. Rugby union in Wales is the only such article at present, the league section is much more developed in this aspect. Rugby league in England, Rugby league in Australia, Rugby league in Wales, Rugby league in New Zealand show what is possible.

I think there is an article on 'rugby culture' somewhere that probably should be linked.GordyB 10:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, yeah, some of those are exactly what I mean. I should have searched better. Thanks!Telsa (talk) 11:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Also found the Rugby culture article, it is currently on POD's sandboxUser:POds/Sandbox/Rugby culture. It is currently rather POV at the moment though.GordyB 11:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Images

Some of the images people are putting in are very questionable. We also do not need to flood the article with images either. You cannot just upload any image and say it is 'promotional material' or 'public domain'.

I also removed the scrum and line-out images as they can be displayed in their respective main-articles.

Also, the RWC Cup image may also be questionable in terms of fair-use.

Cvene64Forever Young 04:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, the RWC Cup image may also be questionable in terms of fair-use. We actually have permission to use that image from the copyright owner, I emailed him who said it was alright.--Hamedog^Talk|@ 08:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah good. Thats a really good image as well. Cvene64 10:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The images that were uploaded were promotional, both from my univ. RFC and the World Cup. I believe that the pictures should be included. Having played the game I have seen the set pieces as well as breakdowns, etc. However, those who may be coming here to gain information, may not have. I say put the photos back in. --Scaife ^(Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 13:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I put the Maul one back in, but can you provide the details on the image page of its location/licensing. Its a fantastic image, and contributes to the article a lot, it just needed the info on the image page. And what about the international photo, how/where is that promotional? Cheers.Cvene64 08:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

My comments on WP:FAC

My response to the FAC nomination included some questions that came to me as I read the article. I've reproduced my comments below:

Object. Remember that a lot of people who use the English-language Wikipedia are Americans who most likely have never seen a rugby match. Try to put yourself in their shoes, turning on the international-sports channel and seeing a bunch of people seemingly running into each other aimlessly. Here are some specific things you should take note of:

• You should include something about strategy in the article. If you get 5 points for a try and only 3 for a penalty or drop goal, why do teams ever kick penalty or drop goals? And why do they kick the ball out of bounds so much?
• Is the 22-meter drop-out a drop kick? And who kicks the 22-meter drop out: the team that grounded the ball in the in-goal area or the team that kicked it there?
• You say the opposition cannot touch the ball in a ruck, but it appears the team can heel the ball. Do you mean they can't touch it with their hands?
• "Referees generally call scrums for knock-ons, where a player drops the ball forwards, a forward pass, or for other accidental infringements" -- does that mean that a knock-on is "when the player drops the ball forwards," or are those two different offenses? If the latter is the case, what's a knock-on?
• Shouldn't the "sin bin" be mentioned?
• You need to define what a scrum is, even though there is an article that gives more info on it.
• Do rugby teams have set plays in which they plan who's going to pass the ball to whom and where, like in American football, or is it all spontaneous?

Football Needs You

Hello,

You don't know me but i'm a user formely known as User:Jebus Christ. I was blocked some time ago because wikipedia didn't like my username. I've only just now created my current username.

Some of you may be aware that the Football article has been overtaken by a fraternity of Australian Rules supporters. This fraternity includes at least one administrator that i'm aware of. His name is Snottygobble.

Regardless of what you may think of the current vote going on in that article, it is blatantly obvious that the article has a major overrepresentation from Australian Rules fans. The Football article needs more input from people with interests such as yours. This should even out the content a little resulting in an article written from a global perspective (as opposed to the southern australian perspective).

With regards to the current vote, whether you agree or not with the proposal, there are definitely some very twisted tactics being used. Currently, almost every person who has voted differently to that the AFL fraternity has been accused of being a sockpuppet of the person who initiated the vote. Through pure frustration, several users made the same accusation of some of the AFL fraternity. Immediately those people were blocked for 'making sockpuppet accursations in bad faith' by administrator and Aussie Rules fraternity member User:Snottygobble.

I'm not here asking anyone to partake in the vote. What i'd like to see though is more input from people outside of the Assie Rules Fraternity.

Thanks in advance,

Jimididit 13:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)