Talk:Atheism

Atheism as form of belief?

Atheism is a form of belief, not believing is the same as believing (believing by not believing). So this mutter, should be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.229.249.49 (talk) 22:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This has been argued to death. The usual rhetoric is to respond with "Baldness is not a type of haircut", "not believing in Unicorns isn't a form of belief", "not eating isn't a type of meal" or some such, IRWolfie- (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Beautiful senselessness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.229.249.49 (talk) 23:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Baldness can be a type of haircut, Wolfie. I think you were going for "Bald is not a hair color". But obviously, not believing ≠ believing. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 18:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Atheism need not be a belief; it may be a simple lack of interest. See Pragmatic atheism, or apatheism. "[A]an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant..." __ Just plain Bill (talk) 18:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Or, for example, agnostic atheism which is for people who do "not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact". IRWolfie- (talk) 00:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The definition of atheism is contested. Disappointingly, this article's opening hierarchy of definitions appears to be OR which misrepresents the sources used (as I wrote above, with no response). Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 06:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Misrepresents the sources, how so? Rowe, "in the broader sense of the term" is referring to the kinds of deities rejected, as does Nielsen who writes for the Britannica "Atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings.[1] [bold mine]. Our opening sentence essentially paraphrases this definition of rejection. Rowe points out the commonly understood narrowest definition, is the positive atheism belief that there is no God, but since there are, in fact, many conceptions of God, Blackburn correctly refers to "a god" and not "God" when he states that atheism can be "...the belief that there exists none." --Modocc (talk) 14:13, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

In other word, pure WP:SYN. Rowe calls his definition "broader", WP somehow turns it into a "narrower" one. The tripartite interrelated definition WP gives is found in no source. There are further problems: a lead should summarize the article body ... this one starts by expounding a novel theory. In general, my impression is this article attempts to engage in the atheism debate rather than observing it disinterestedly, and some past editors have perhaps become a bit too attached to the ingenious OR they opened the article with. It would be much better to open with a statement that the definition is contested (easily sourced), rather than attempting to nail atheism down with a synthesized bit of thinking. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 07:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Rowe calls a "disbelief in every form of deity" definition a "broader sense" than merely "disbelief in God". Which is true, though using "atheist" for disbelief in a specific god includes believers in competing gods, and is a rather uncommon usage. Both of those senses are, indeed, narrower than the other two senses in our lede. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

... which is a broad/narrow distinction that differs from the one in the article, and is OR. The very fact the opening sentences need this kind of exegesis should be ringing alarm bells (along with the other problems I raised.) Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 09:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Rowe's definitions seem to confuse more than enlighten thus we can remove/replace it. Someone may have inserted it when another editor objected to using the term "position" instead of "belief"; we once had a philosophy text to source that usage, but I don't know what became of it (alas, perfectionists abound... ;). There are plenty of other sources available for the definition that atheism is a position/belief asserting that no deity exists. Yet Nielsen states (and Edwards supports) that although atheists affirm nonexistence of some deities that this is inadequate (thus too narrow) and it is the broader sense of rejection that is adequate. Dictionary definitions and our sources actually DO give us the broader senses of disbelief and lack of belief, as well as the narrower senses of belief and doctrine. That some people (often with agendas to push) have problems with one or more of these is better left in the body of the article where such navel-gazing gets its due weight and no more than that. -Modocc (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this article should be locked even from wikipedian insiders, so that no one can ever correct the horrendously poor grammer and syntax. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.25.6 (talk) 13:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

"Grammar", I think you mean. --Dannyno (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

There are only two options. Either a) Athe-ism = a belief that there are no Gods, and is a philosophy. Athe-ist = someone who believes there are no Gods. Or, b) A-theism = no god belief, is not a philosophy, and can describe every sentient and non-sentient thing in existence, except Theists. A-theist = not a God believer, and could describe anything but Theists. Athe-ist defines a person, A-theist doesn't. Nothinheavy (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I would define an atheist as “one who has no belief in deities” not “something which has no belief in deities”. In general, any sort of -ist is a person, not an inanimate object. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Lede

I think it is wrong that the lede includes the paragraph below, because it is giving WP:UNDUE to one single poll (in regard to how common atheism is in the countries cited). There have been numerous studies on the prevalence of atheism, with varying results; and the poll is also from the past, so it may be outdated information. Simply explaining that atheism is more common in Western countries then in other parts of the world would do fine; there's no need for these figures.

"According to another, rates of self-reported atheism are among the highest in Western nations, again to varying degrees: United States (4%), Italy (7%), Spain (11%), Great Britain (17%), Germany (20%), and France (32%)."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:2f0a:506f:ffff::bc19:9f3a (talk • contribs) 22:15, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I partly agree with you, to the extent that the lead is a little heavy on demographic numbers – but on the other hand, that paragraph actually cites multiple polls, not just one, and some information on the prevalence of atheism does seem to me to be important for the lead. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I have found (OR) that many seem to believe there are few atheists. So, demographics would seem pertinent for the lede. Jim1138 (talk) 16:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Antony Flew and this article on Atheism

Antony Flew is mentioned in this article on Atheism in the paragraph titled - Positive v's Negative. One might consider that in mentioning Flew in an article on Atheism one should also mention that Flew was an atheist for most of his life but chose in the end to be a theist and believe that God does exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.188.181 (talk) 02:15, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

According to his bio page here, that's true, but the place on this page where I see him mentioned doesn't really deal with that issue, just some distinctions between different classifications of atheism, as opposed to Flew's personal belief system. Therefore, I think that pointing it out would be sort of off-topic within that particular section of the page, and could be a distraction. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Tryptofish--JimWae (talk) 22:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Ditto. Flew's conversion to vague deism in his dotage may be germane in Anthony Flew, but not here. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 03:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Robin Lionheart above me. Flew hold in a version of vague Deism, not Thesim, and i would be surprised if there exists a reference of Flew calling himself a "Theist". Ben-Natan (talk) 02:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 July 2013

You should add "The Ethics of the Faith: Right, Wrong, and the God of Abraham" by Ean W. Burchell to the list of "Books about this ... " on the Wikipedia Facebook link. It's a new book that will be an important contribution to this area. You can see a preview on Amazon.

(Sales page link removed)

Erikmentz69 (talk) 14:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but we aren't here to promote new books, especially from that kind of publisher. Vsmith (talk) 14:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

How about the new Atheist Church movement, I see no reference to this and there have been a upswing in Atheist Churches in the United States and overseas. Both brick and mortar and online. All one has to do is Google Atheist Church and you will find several. Ranleewright (talk) 04:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

We don't need to find 'Atheist Churches'. We need evidence from third-party sources that they are in any way significant to the topic of atheism in general. Without that, there is no reason to include them in this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I do remember seeing some recent secondary sources. If you do a Google News search for "Community Mission Chapel" (exact phrase, needs to be in quotes), such sources come up. I'm not sure, however, how to cover that on this page without giving it undue weight. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Considering the long history, and the in depth extent of sources on atheism which do not mention these chapels, newspaper articles alone would not indicate the material has enough weight to be here. IRWolfie- (talk)

Community Mission Chapel might be a good subject for a Wikinews article, but I agree with Wolfie that it yet lacks sufficient weight to warrant a mention in this article. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 17:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Some very interesting and very important statistics

Dont you think that in section Demographics must be also statistics about people's Church attendance. I think it is necessary as long as it's shows the real rate of people's religiousness.

Or statistics about religion's importance by country, provided here- Importance of religion by country. It's also shows the real rate of people's religiousness.

And finally the last suggestion: another very intersting study by Gallup. According that, Religiosity Highest in World's Poorest Nations. The link is here http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx. That's really interesting statistics: how mush is given country poor, the rate of religiousness in that country is higher. Really interesting thing. And given the USA alone, situation is the same: more pure is a given State, the higher is religiousness rate. I think this information is very exciting. I wonder why till today there is no any information I mentioned above.

So, I have made 3 suggestions to put in the article this 3 statistical informations. Guys, please your opinions to any of this sugestion one by one, and please-please your comments must be reasonable. Thanks in advance. 46.70.181.145 (talk) 22:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)