Talk:Robert P. Murphy

Vanity tag

I removed the vanity warning since I, not Bob Murphy, created this Wikipedia article about Murphy, an arguably notable economist and Libertarian theorist. DickClarkMises 06:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll vouch for Bob being an important commentator in radical libertarian spheres. I was also wondering if we should add a note about his religious beliefs, as they often play a major role in his writings for LewRockwell.com.Atripodi 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Taking a fresh look

Does anyone disagree with me at this point that we should consider AfD for this article. It barely passes any semblance of muster. Has this been discussed previously? I note that Mises affiliate DickClarkMises called Murphy "arguably notable" seven years ago and I don't see anything in the article that clearly establishes his notability. Thoughts? SPECIFICO talk 00:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your concern. The "inflation prediction" (we can't say incorrect, because that's a non-neutral fact) and his Lew Rockwell dot come articles are all that come up on Google. Steeletrap (talk) 04:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

secondary sources

could someone add secondary sources? currently references are mostly reviews of his books. 216.80.119.92 (talk) 19:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Aren't book reviews a type of secondary source? According to the Wikipedia article, Secondary source means a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere. That seems to me to include such things as book reviews, which are discussions of the form and content of the original author's books. DickClarkMises (talk) 20:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, strictly speaking there are only two book reviews (three if you include the interview about the PIG book) cited out of thirteen total sources. DickClarkMises (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

And 6 sources are by the author himself. BIO article needs to be based on third party sources. This article is not about his books, for which sources would be fine, but about himself. 216.80.119.92 (talk) 15:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources authored by the article subject are acceptable for the attribution of non-controversial assertions. See WP:SELFPUB. This article is about Murphy and his books, since he is notable in large part based on what he has written. There are thirteen sources, and together they make for a pretty well-sourced article. More sources would always be welcome, of course. Do you have some suggestions on how to expand the coverage? DickClarkMises (talk) 16:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#Basic_criteria, WP:CREATIVE, and WP:BLPSTYLE216.80.119.92

To make it easier, I am sure you can find some secondary sources here: [1] and here [2] 216.80.119.92 (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that the Barron's article cited in the article, which favorably compares Murphy to Thomas Sowell, takes care of the notability issue, especially in light of the other reviews. The third criterion listed at WP:CREATIVE is The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. The PIG book is well-known, and has been the subject of multiple independent articles or reviews. If you know of additional sources that would be useful, be bold and add them. DickClarkMises (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for answering an implicit question I asked, and specifying the basis for notability of author and not his work. So specifically, I would suggest adding some of these. [3], or these [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.80.119.92 (talk) 18:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I've looked at the links you provided, but it isn't obvious to me that the limited previews of the books would be useful to us as sources (none of the available content discusses Murphy). As for a Google news or scholar search, I agree that some coverage of other notable scholars who have cited Murphy might be useful. Feel free to add it! Likewise with third-party coverage of his books and articles. Cheers, DickClarkMises (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Krugman Debate

Should a section be included regarding his debate challenge to Paul Krugman? I'm happy to write the section, but being a new to Wikipedia, I'm opening this for discussion before adding. Jtropeano (talk) 18:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Murphy's Losing the Bet

Hey. I know the OR isn't welcomed, but don't you think an illustration of how badly Murphy lost the bet (the change CPI would've had to have been more than 150% greater than it was in the highest year of change for him to have one) is relevant? (Murphy himself concedes this, btw). Steeletrap (talk) 17:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I added that he conceded loosing. By how much (whether badly or by a hair) is not for us to judge. – S. Rich (talk) 18:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey Srich, I'm not sure what you mean. Murphy predicted 10% or more inflation and it never hit even 4%. I agree that whether that's "big" or "close" loss is for others to judge (though (and this is me speaking in a common-sense, unencyclopedic fashion :) )for those acquainted with economics, it's going to sound like a 41-3 football game). But isn't listing (without commentary) that CPI ended up being lower than 4% in all years, as cited by Murphy, relevant to the bet? Steeletrap (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

In this regard we are getting into WP:SYN. We cannot take fact A (the terms of their bet), and fact B (what we perceive as to the win/lose determining parameters of their bet), and reach conclusion C (that the bet was lost by a big or small margin). The only real point (and it really is a trivial one because economists and prophets are wrong at least half the time in these matters) is that the bet was made, with one side "winning" and the other "losing". Going beyond that is ad hominem, which these guys (Murphy et al) already do too much. If Murphy (or another RS) had said "Yup, I lost badly by 10% (or whatever)", then we could put that sort of statement in. – S. Rich (talk) 21:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh I fully agree that C -- which contains a value judgment about how "bad" (or "close") the loss was -- is inappropriate. I am just wondering why, bereft of any commentary on how "badly" (or closely) he lost the bet, we can't plainly list the actual CPI data from that period (which Murphy begrudgingly cited). Steeletrap (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Stockpile Metals

Srich, I think that bit about stockpiling metals should remain in the article. Reason: Murphy was employed as an investment analyst at Laffer & Co. so this advice continues a thread in his work. Please consider re-inserting. SPECIFICO talk 23:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, if secondary sources criticized him for this COI advice that would worthwhile. But the OR/SYN bogeyman lurks otherwise. (I agree that it was lousy advice. Benjamin Graham in The Intelligent Investor critized gold buying long ago! – S. Rich (talk) 00:07, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying to juxtapose them to insinuate a conclusion, just that investment advice is part of his career and not irrelevant to his bio. SPECIFICO talk 00:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

If he were giving advice at Laffer to invest in metals, and seemed to continue to do so post-Laffer, and we had RS commenting on this, the particular advice (pre/during/post Laffer) might be relevant to fill out his bio. E.g., we'd learn if he were a gold-bug, temporary gold-bug, etc.. But where's there a connection to gold-bug advice in the criticism section? Compare, there are other ways to fight inflation like real estate, TIPS, high-yield dividend stocks, etc (or so I've heard). Maybe he commented on these vehicles. Or should we be linking Gold as an investment as part of the section or article? Until better RS comes in, I think the gold stuff is off-topic. – S. Rich (talk) 00:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I would think the gold is on-topic regardless of the other content. It relates to his world view as an economist. Let's see what others have to say. SPECIFICO talk 02:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with SPECIFICO's comments here, and also think that his reference to buying "emergency stockpiles" of gold and silver is material to the context (i.e. his prediction of hyperinflation (or, to be charitable, double-digit inflation.) His tone in the TAC article is, it should be noted, quite alarmist and vaguely conspiratorial. Steeletrap (talk) 02:31, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

On a related note, I just made a change to the criticism part contextualizing the main point of Murphy's 2009 article in The American Conservative: namely, that it is "entirely plausible" that the US Dollar may be abandoned entirely by the end of Obama's Presidency. (He specifically and non-facetiously mentions the (conspiracy-theorized) "amero" currency as a possible candidate to replace it) Maybe the stuff about stockpiling physical metals (to bury in one's yard..? :P ) could fit here. Steeletrap (talk) 05:48, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Economic Beliefs

Most (all?) of this section's claims appear to be partly or entirely normative, e.g. Murphy's views that law should be privatized and that Leftist are "cynical, bitter people." "Economics" is a social science, and as such is positive rather than normative. Thus I changed "economic beliefs" to "Moral and Political Beliefs." Someone interested in improving this article should note some value-free contributions Murphy has made to economic theory (as opposed to paraphrasing his normative defense of anarcho-capitalism). Steeletrap (talk) 23:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Inflation Prediction

False sounds like a misrepresntation of fact. Erroneous? What is your concern about Srich's "wager..."? I am comfortable with the sourcing of the text and agree that it should not be removed again without prior consensus to do so. SPECIFICO talk 22:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• My concern was more about the language of the heading. They must follow guidelines for article titles. See WP:NDESC; e.g., non-judgmental and descriptive. I said not "false" or "true" (inartfully) because only the results of predictions turn out to be true or false. But saying he made a "false prediction" fails the non-judgmental requirement. – S. Rich (talk) 23:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Srich, I have read through the WP article and think your "judgmental" criticism is reasonable. ("false" is clearly descriptively accurate here but is also arguably judgmental) I was irritated when you claimed "no prediction is false" because that claim is obviously false, but this concern is more reasonable. I am sorry for "unilaterally" reverting your edits; I just saw what appeared to be a patently bogus rationale ("no prediction is false") and so didn't take your edit seriously. I am just going to change this back to criticism.

Steeletrap (talk) 23:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, my concern with Srich's title is that the "bet" is peripheral to this discussion. It's not about Murphy having a bet with Henderson (which could be a bet about the Super Bowl); it's about what Murphy was betting on (i.e., a prediction of 10% inflation, which -- as an economic prediction -- relates to his views on, and arguably (as DeLong and Krugman claim) relates to the credibility of his methodology for, economics). Steeletrap (talk) 23:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Srich that a prediction is not generally said to be true or false. What about erroneous, wrong, incorrect, mistaken. A theory might be proved false in case it generates a prediction which is incorrect, but I don't think the sense of false prediction sounds right. SPECIFICO talk 01:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"Incorrect" sounds quite appropriate. (I maintain that "False" is literally true, but concede that it is rather inapt phrasing that arguably sounds a bit judgmental.) "Incorrect" inflation predictions sounds like an ideal title (much more descriptively precise than the stuff about the bet or just the vague header "criticism") What do you, rich, and others think of that phrasing? Steeletrap (talk) 01:25, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Section headings must be non-judgmental. This is a WP policy issue and this article comes within the general sanctions for Austrian economics topics. (Other section heading in the article violate policy as well.) – S. Rich (talk) 23:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Srich, that policy is not talking about stating a fact. The error is a fact. We're not saying "foolish" prediction, or "ignorant" prediction. It's an empirical fact that he made an erroneous prediction and it was notably erroneous. Please undo your reversion. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 23:51, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

@Steeletrap: Reminder, this article comes under general sanctions. The BRD cycle calls for a Bold Revert and Discuss. You made your bold edit that changed something stable for 6 months 1 month. I Reverted and I made comment here. It is improper for you to re-revert the edit. I urge you to change it back. @SPECIFICO: Adding the unnecessary adjective to the section heading, "correct" or "erroneous" or "false" or "wrong" or whatever, goes beyond a mere descriptive heading. – S. Rich (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC) 02:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Srich, we are going to have to use DR, because you cite a policy which clearly does not apply to this heading, either in Steeletrap's version or my own even better version. Look at the article about the Hindenburg. It's called Hindenburg disaster not Hindenburg voyage. A section is called "Engine failure" not "Operation of the Engine" it says "Incendiary Paint" not "Paint". I will open DR on this. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 01:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Srich32977 I wasn't really thinking about BRD when I made that edit. I do agree that we should not do that on these pages except for extraordinary circumstances, so I reverted it.

However, I don't (at all) understand your point that the "incorrect" header is somehow unfair. I think that people confuse neutrality for 'making a blp look good'. Neutrality demands that we present the facts in a balanced matter, and has nothing to do with making a BLP look good. It is an empirical fact that inflation didn't come out the way he said it would. Since this fact got a lot of coverage in RS (for instance, by a former Assistant Secretary of Treasurer, and UC Berkeley Economist), and since that coverage centered around not the fact that Murphy made a prediction, but that it was wildly false, representing it is perfectly neutral (while obscuring it is non neutral and pro-Murphy).

By your understanding of neutrality, we shouldn't even mention that it was wrong in the text because it may make Murphy 'look bad'. Similarly, we should change the header "Impeachment" from the Bill Clinton page to the vague, unspecific header "Congressional Hearing", simply because the (empirical fact) that he was impeached makes him 'look bad.' Steeletrap (talk) 01:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that, if we are serious about improving these still flawed articles in the Mises and Mises-related category, we need to take a tougher approach to ensure that we stick to WP policy. When a clearly erroneous and/or fanciful application of policy is used to justify a content edit, we should move more quickly to Dispute Resolution and third party policy statements. Othewise we'll continue to waste a huge amount of time here and editors will leave or reduce their participation. SPECIFICO talk 02:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Misrepresenting edit history

@Srich - I checked your statement that Steele's edit changed a version which had remained stable for six months. That is not true. In fact the stable version was "incorrect inflation prediction" and the Bold edit was DGG's on Oct. 1, 2013. Steele then did her revert, and you should have gone to talk for discussion rather than re-inserting DGG's version. You may not like me to remind you of this, but it's really important to be accurate in your statements here -- particularly if they are bundled with little "reminders" about Sanctions. If other editors feel that they need to check your statements of straightforward facts such as edit histories it wastes a lot of editor time and attention and dilutes the collaboration we are trying to sustain here. Please reflect. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

My apology. I was thinking of the discussion that occurred 6 months ago. (I struck the 6 months and made the correction.) And thank you for pointing out that DGG, an administrator, made the change. All the more reason to revert. I thank you, Steeletrap, for having done so. – S. Rich (talk) 02:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

You needn't apologize -- just try not to repeat this. It is very costly to the Project. SPECIFICO talk 02:07, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

We should re-revert. Respectfully, whether or not Dgg is an admin, I think his understanding of neutrality is mistaken. Neutrality means presenting factually accurate information without commentary, and in a manner represented by RS; "incorrect" is an empirical fact (not an opinion, or not a "judgment" unless by "judgment" you mean the objective sense in which one "judges" that one and one make two), and it's the "incorrectness" that RS are focusing on. No one would care about his economic predictions if he hadn't gotten them so crashingly wrong. Steeletrap (talk) 02:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I have re-set this to Steele's revert, where she was clearly within the BRD parameters, and before Srich's erroneous undo. SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Correct, the only notable aspect of Murphy's predictions is that they were spectacularly wrong and that he promoted them with an untoward degree of certainty. RS supports this. SPECIFICO talk 02:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Mass deletion of blogs

User:A_Quest_For_Knowledge says that the inclusion of the J. Bradford DeLong and David Henderson expert (economist) blogs is improper because they used to source facts about Murphy. I ask: which facts? The fact that Murphy made an incorrect prediction is drawn from Murphy himself (and the NYT). The (expert) blogs are just evaluating his (already established) methodologies/predictions, rather than making factual assertions about him. I understand this exchange got a bit heated on the ANI, so I will AGF and ask AQFK to do the same while expressing their views. Steeletrap (talk) 04:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what more I can say about this. I think my previous statements were pretty self-exploratory, but if it helps, I will try to explain again. We are not supposed to use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people. The SPS expert exception does not apply to content about living people if the content involves third-parties, per WP:UGC. When it comes to biographical material, particularly when the content is contentious, we should insist upon strong sourcing. The use of blogs, advocacy organizations, and other questionable sources are simply not acceptable. I'll also add that even if living people were not involved, if the information in question is really worth reporting, a third-party reliable source will probably have done so. The deleted content can possibly be restored, but proper sourcing is required.

These are established Wikipedia policies and guidelines. This is what the community as a whole has decided. If you disagree with these policies and guidelines, that's fine. But the proper way to go about changing them is open discussions at the WP:V, WP:BLP and WP:RS talk pages and gain consensus for changing them. Until then, you cannot use self-published sources for claims involving third-party living people regardless of whether the author is an expert or not.

I hope this helps. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 07:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Wholesale deletion of criticism of predictions section

These edits are abundantly well-sourced and accepted without objection by most editors on this page. Deleting it wholesale is unacceptable without significant discussion and attempt to reach consensus. Discussions about the neutrality of the edits are welcome, though they strike me as straight-forward paraphrases of claims made in the sources. Steeletrap (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

It's silly to have this section at all because we have NOT come to the end of the Obama presidency and therefore his prediction may yet come true. Section should be removed as irrelevant. Put it back when it doesn't come true as of January 20, 2017. User:Carolmooredc talk 05:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Murphy's religious beliefs

I've tagged the section as undue. Murphy's a finance/econ guy (of whatever sort) and putting in a whole section devoted to his "denialist beliefs" isn't encyclopedic. So what if he's written about his beliefs? LewRockwell.com has given him a platform, but we don't need to crucify him or praise him either way for using it. In any event, labeling his beliefs as "denialism", with links, is wrong. – S. Rich (talk) 19:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you know anything about Milton Friedman, James Buchanan, Paul Samuelson or Edmund Phelps' religious beliefs? No. They are far more public about other aspects of their lives but religion doesn't come up. Because Murphy posts it on the blog and at LRC alongside policy politics and economics, it's an important part of his BLP article. Not an article entitled "the economic theories of Bob Murphy" but unquestionably his BLP, yes. Denialism is the term for his views, it's not derogatory. "Deny" is a good English word and many fringe ideas similar to Murphy's are neutrally and appropriately called "denialism."

Murphy is not notable for economics; nothing in this article specifically describes Murphy's contributions as an "economist". Rather, he is notable for his commentary on political and social issues, particularly on the highly popular LewRockwell.com. (Friedman is notable for both; had he been a denialist or a literalist, this would be appropriate to note on his page. It is even more appropriate for Murphy.)

As to denialism, that is simply the most descriptively appropriate word for rejection of established fact. See: AIDS Denial and Holocaust denial; evolution is also listed on Wikipedia as a form of denialism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism#Evolution_denialism Steeletrap (talk) 20:11, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

"Denialism" or "denialist", as descriptive terms, are loaded with POV! In general every religion "denies" the validity of all other religions. Would we dare label any religion as denialist? So what if Murphy has a fundamentalist outlook? "He doesn't believe this or that, so he must be a denialist!" Please. – S. Rich (talk) 20:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

So what if it's "loaded"? It's a fact. Facts are "is" statements not should. The statement "Murphy is a denialist" is a fact, and does not (logically) entail any value judgment.

The reason every religion is not denialist is because denialism refers to denial of empirical or scientific reality, as opposed to denial (or affirmation) of metaphysical claims. However, every religion that as a matter of dogma denied as that the world is round would , yes, be engaged denialism. Steeletrap (talk) 20:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

The "So what" is one of the WP:5P! We avoid loaded statements, and saying "it's a fact that Murphy denies evolution (and is therefore a denialist)" is directly in contradiction to NPOV. Why? Because "denialist" and "denialism" are our own spins on the significance and interpretation of his views. If Murphy said "I'm a denialist", then we could add this. But he does not. In any event, I've removed the undue tag from the section. – S. Rich (talk) 22:10, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

This is bordering on sophistry. It's clear the statement is not loaded in the sense you imply. We describe assassinations, wars, and the like. Factual statements there are loaded but they are not biased. The 5P are not in danger here. SPECIFICO talk 23:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Rich, this is a pretty simple matter. Murphy rejects or is "skeptical" of the notion that human beings evolved from lower organisms. Is this denialism? Numerous RS, including Wikipedia's page on denialism, say so. Thus we indicate that Murphy is a denialist. Steeletrap (talk) 07:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is a WP article on "denialism". Look at Denialism#Prescriptive_and_polemic. And we, as WP editors, have a mandate to avoid linguistic prescription and polemic. – S. Rich (talk) 14:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

These links are entirely irrelevant to the RS text of this article. SPECIFICO talk 14:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh? Then show us the RS that says Murphy is a "denialist" or supports "denialism". Indeed, where is there RS about the evolution denialism movement? And who is attempting to equate Murphy's religious beliefs with "fringe" and AIDS denialism and Holocaust denialism? – S. Rich (talk) 16:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

On WP we do not cite article text as WP editing policy. SPECIFICO talk 16:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know that?!? Where did I say the links were policy or guidelines? The point is that Steele wants to use the term "denialism/denialist" and Steele gives a link to the WP article about denialism. And within that article it describes how the terms denialism and denialist are polemical and prescriptive. (Perhaps that article is incorrect.) I give the analysis again: Steele wants to use the term "denialism"; Denialism is a polemical and prescriptive term; WP:POLEMIC does not allow us to use polemics. – S. Rich (talk) 17:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't follow your logic, rich. What does the fact that denialism has a polemical connotation have to do with whether or not it would, in this case, be accurately applied to Murphy? The Wikipedia piece you mention cites rejection of evolution as a form of denialism. I think misunderstand WP:Polemic, which is qualified is a very particular way, as opposed to excluding all material that may be polemical in its effect; applying your interpretation of WP:Polemic, we could not say Mahmoud Ahmedinejad is a Holocaut denier in his Wiki entry. Steeletrap (talk) 18:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Again, where is the RS that describes Murphy as a denialist? There is a difference between having religious beliefs and denialism. Consider, you have a userbox that refers to Ashkenazi Jews heritage, but you are an atheist. Does that make you a "religious denialist" or "Judaism denialist" or "Torah denialist". Like-wise, are people who adhere to their faith "evolution denialists" or "astronomy denialists" (who stopped the Sun in the sky?) or "medical science denialists" (lots of miracles and medical impossibilities are described in the Bible), etc.? You, Steele, made the tie-in to Holocaust and AIDs denialism. And you added a WP:EGG link that redirected to Creation–evolution controversy. But that article does not use the term "denialism" or "denialist". I urge you to review WP:PUSH#Examples. – S. Rich (talk) 18:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

While you have not mentioned it, perhaps the example of how WP is handling global warming will help. We have articles on Global warming, Scientific opinion on climate change, Public opinion on climate change, Media coverage of climate change, the Global warming controversy, and Climate change denial. If there was RS which reported that Murphy (or any other non-scientist) was skeptical about aspects of global warming, which would be the most appropriate link to use? Consider, suppose he says "I don't think global warming is a problem at present because I'm confident that scientific progress and innovation will be successful in overcoming the adverse aspects of global warming." Or maybe he says "The measures proposed to counteract global warming will be too small and too late to have a beneficial impact, but will harm the economy and lives of millions of people." Or he might say "I'm not convinced that global warming is taking place because I see stuff in the scientific literature that shows the earth has had many such cycles of warming and cooling." Regardless of which hypothetical statement Murphy utters, how would we characterize it? Do we make him out to be a "global warming denialist"? (Indeed, is there an "-ism" for global warming?) We might disagree with the fact that Murphy is skeptical about evolution, but so what? His comments have had insignificant impact on the creation-evolution controversy and it would be improper for us to include his views in the C-E controversy article (and related articles). Along the same lines, we cannot be characterizing his religious beliefs as an anti-science "-ism", or describe him as an adherent (e.g., an "-ist") to any such beliefs. – S. Rich (talk) 23:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

That view is specious to the max. Do you think a biologist or geneticist is going to take time out of her busy day to write a scholarly article on Murphy's evolution denialism? Why would anybody scholar or not? As has recently been discussed on the ORN thread a walled-garden figure such as Murphy will not generally have your hypothetical perfect RS citations for every aspect of his activities. The larger question, of course, is whether Murphy is notable enough to have a WP article at all. I haven't examined that question. Perhaps others have already done so. SPECIFICO talk 23:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I am going to post an RfD on this today or tomorrow. I think it's clear that expressing "skepticism" of evolution or saying that one can "literallly" disprove it is denialism (that is, a rejection of a established empirical reality) and distinct from the rejection (or affirmation) of non-empirical metaphysical claims entailed by membership in a religious organization. Steeletrap (talk) 17:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:AfD or WP:RfC? An RfC I can certainly understand, as you've made 77 edits to the article (in the spirit of article improvement, I'm sure). But an AfD would look like you've given up on improvement and are making a WP:IDL nomination. – S. Rich (talk) 18:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I meant to say RFC. Thank you for your recognition of my work in improving what was once an unadulterated hagiography. Steeletrap (talk) 19:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

::Srich, even if editor Steeletrap had meant AfD, I think that we do need to keep that possibility in the back of our minds here. This article, like de Soto and several other of the walled-garden variety Miseans' deserves a try at improvement. If after the best efforts of various editors the articles do not reveal any independent RS citations and do not otherwise document notability, the question of AfD will be inescapable. If all the efforts at improvement fail, an AfD can more clearly be evaluated than at present. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Page created by co-worker at Murphy's Institute

User:DickClarkMises worked from 2004 to 2007 at the Institute where Murphy is adjunct scholar (he stated this a few months ago on this talk page after another user asked him about a Mises Institute video in which his wiki editing of Mises articles on Wikipedia and on the Institute's wiki were celebrated 1). He created this page (2) and has contributed more edits to it than any other user (3). Shouldn't we take note of this extreme WP:COI origin in evaluating the page's current contents, and its justification for existence? Steeletrap (talk) 04:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

There are a few of the Mises Institute related persons who are borderline for notability. Soto is another example. Some, like Hulsmann have had their WP articles deleted. Murphy is a strange case because he hasn't really had much visibility even at Mises Institute. He's written some popular books but nothing even in the vMI tradition of speculative thought. Jury is out on him and this article. SPECIFICO talk 05:07, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

AfD on Murphy's book

Please see The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism for more info. Steeletrap (talk) 05:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)