Talk:September Morn

Untitled

I trimed the image caption, including removing the text saying " Ironically the scandal causing this fame was provoked by the person that wanted to prohibit people ever seeing it—if he had done nothing, nobody would probably even remember the painting, and even less probable that it would still be on display in a major museum". This seems to me in part to be restating points already made and adding a POV spin. Even if one ranks it as a dated 3rd rate piece, such and worse can certainly be seen on display in many major museums; they are simply not among the museums' more famous or popular displays. -- Infrogmation 15:58, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC) Does anyone have the name of the model? This should be in the article as much as is the name of the artist.Tham153 (talk) 17:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Chabas never revealed her name. Ewulp (talk) 00:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• The statement During his career he never completed a portrait of a man may be incorrect. Portrait d'homme barbu and Portrait d'homme toile are listed by Artnet as being by Chabas; the latter being sold at Piasa auction house, Paris in November 2012. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the note. Nixed (not really pertinent to September Morn, anyways). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Further sources

• Search
• Chicago (done)
• At the time of his death (done)
• Speculation on model (done)
• Censoring Sex (done)
• Duchamp in Perspective (done)
• Met Acquisition (done)
• Toledo (done)
• Not a sou
• Revolution! (done)
• The same old story
• Rejection from Philly (done)
• "Cold shoulder" (Done)
• Whereabouts (done)
• Man posed as September Morn (done)
• Milwaukee
• Westminster album
• Rather detailed opinion column (done)
• (done)
• (done)
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• (done)
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• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
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• (done)

• Free September Morn Pin (done)
• Chabas' Original Work Never in the US (done)
• Disorderly Conduct for bringing copy of painting home (done)

• Toledo again (done)
• I Ain't No September Morn (done)
• Girls imitate the pose; boy steals the pictures (worth including?)

• Another description of the model by an artist who claimed to know both Chabas and the model. This says she was 25 in 1913.
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)

• • I believe the artist was Jules Eugene Pages (1867–1946). California born, but active in Paris since 1902. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:12, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

There's also a 1910 book about Chabas at Open Library, which could be used to expand his bio if someone can read French. We hope (talk) 00:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• At the very least I'm taking that picture of him. 48 pages isn't too bad... not sure my French would be up to par, however. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Not even 48. It's like ten pages of text. The rest are pictures. Even I could probably read that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:43, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I never studied it but can make out some words (can read enough to keep myself from imminent danger). :) We hope (talk) 00:47, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Once upon a time, I was the best in my French class. Now I haven't used it in years, so... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:56, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Lead

Interesting picture, interesting article . . . but I wonder whether the lead should describe the pose as "protecting herself from the cold". It's a very ambiguous pose, which different critics have described and interpreted differently, so maybe no one should be stated in the lead as definitive. At first glance, the rest of the article is fine, gives even-handed coverage to different opinions. (Full disclosure: as an older woman, I definitely see this as child porn/erotica sanctioned by being Art, and the pose as provocative on the part of the artist, not the model). Cheers, Awien (talk) 12:29, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the commentary. I'll touch up on the lead later (was a bit rushed doing it, to be honest). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good! Awien (talk) 12:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, agree with Awien, as per my position at this painting's Featured Picture candidacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/September_Morn. I do think any article pretending to completeness here should examine Professor Brauer's paper I cited, whose purpose it to examine how art like this escaped sanction as indecent, though I'm afraid her estimate of 11-13 for the subject's age strikes me as a subjective estimate rather than based on any objective evidence. I suggested in the forum that Suzanne Delve was in fact the French actress Suzanne Delvé and this does seem confirmed by Google images of her when compared with the newspaper image (arched eyebrow, prominent chin).

The expanding editor here was initially reluctant to include Delve on the grounds there was no reliable source. When he did finally edit, he thought fit to stress the presence of the subject's mother but omitted her age and the "instinctive" pose. I supplied those details, obviously significant, and in the circumstances I feel entitled to warn editors against uncritically accepting Chabas' account of the painting's genesis. That his subject actually posed in the freezing waters of Lake Annecy strikes me as extremely implausible. Artists' models have to hold their pose for long periods of time and there would have been significant issues with privacy and possible attention from the local police. I do hope we are not to eventually see a "Do You Know" along the line of "In 1909 a young girl stepped into the freezing waters of Lake Annecy and her recoiling pose subsequently became famous throughout the world ...". That would be a travesty, and I can add that the pose is not in fact the body-hugging, knee-clenching pose one adopts trying to protect oneself from cold. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 15:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• So you are coming here and accusing me of being "reluctant" to add Delve (after having accused me of resorting to OR in describing her as an actress, which is reported in the source?)? I did not add her immediately because MoH is not a reliable source. Period. Once I did get a RS, she went right in. That is not being reluctant. That is following guidelines and policy. I did not include her age because it was, and remains, irrelevant to the painting as a whole; September Morn would have been September Morn no matter if she was 12, 15, or 19, and frankly the paragraph on her goes into a bit too much detail even now. Inserting each claimants age at the time the painting would have occurred would have been WP:UNDUE and (considering your apparent obsession with this model being under the age of majority) very WP:POINTy.

Indeed, the emphasis on the age of the model has been your obsession since the FPC nomination started, and right now one of the weakest paragraphs in the article is basically there as an anchor for the Brauer article. As I've said already, I'll be happy to look at the article once I get access to it, and once I can read it I may find something that can be better worked into the article's structure. I don't have ready access to it, but I've posted several requests at WP:RX for sources which could be used – including Brauer.

As for "not being critical", at the time you made the comment I was not yet aware that almost every single aspect of this painting's history has been reported and misreported since the controversy first broke out. Once you pointed out the existence of multiple narratives, I almost immediately included them, and almost every time I've found discrepancies in the sources I've been careful to note that. Right now I've got a couple RSes which Google hints may have elements reported in the non-RS you mention (the American girl's head, and of Ortiz being the owner of the shop in New York), but they are snippet view only, and thus I am not adding anything yet.

And, for the last time, the article's content (or lack of it) is not germane to the quality of a scan as a picture. Actually read the criteria, or talk with people who know the process. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Well exactly, as you say, you were reluctant to edit until you had a reliable source, as I said. So why your agressive response? But the source was immediately accessible from the Ministry of Hoaxes blog, was of the same nature as those uploaded in the "Further Sources" section and in fact had already been uploaded.

I glanced at the rest of your post and don't see the need to respond except in one detail: that my objection to valorizing this image as Featured Picture, equivalent perhaps to hanging it in a gallery (I'm not suggesting the image should be removed from its article), is based on a subjective impression that the subject is too young to make the image a decent one by modern standards. I am entirely disinterested as to its legality or to the age of the subject. It's a painting that plainly has the potential to gratify paedophiles and Wikipedia should apply common-sense and discretion valorizing such paintings. I made all that very plain at the forum.

Normally I would be content to reply to your responses endlessly (and why not so long as I have the energy) but I fear I cannot because I will be away for a while. On my return I should be happy to continue. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Following policy and guidelines in a quest to present a high quality article is not an act of personal reluctance, as you implied through your statement ("finally edit", indeed, as if I had deliberately put off adding the information... you wonder why you get bad responses? check how you word your observations), but good editing practice. The article was not uploaded to Museum of Hoaxes, and it was not in the Google News Archive. Thus, I had to rely on We hope, who kindly clipped it and posted a link here, which I followed and included after including about a dozen other references in my spare time (which, owing to time zone differences, is often significantly distanced from US editing times).

As to "a subjective impression that the subject is too young to make the image a decent one by modern standards. I am entirely disinterested as to ... the age of the subject." ... you can't actually see any flaw with that reasoning? If you are entirely disinterested as to her age, why would you worry she is too young to make the image a "decent one"? The first sentence negates the second. As for "It's a painting that plainly has the potential to gratify paedophiles ..." - any image of a child has that possibility. Even of a little girl in a white sundress on a fine summer morning. A toddler walking happily in a diaper could conceivably arouse a certain kind of pedophile. There are no bounds to human perversity. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Still here :)

You came on to my Talk page here to rant at me for failing to notice the Delve piece described her as working on the stage (gentle reader - my response includes what I consider to be a definitive assessment of Chabas' September Morn painting - catch it if you are a mature adult with a strong stomach ...). I'm not sure that I'm not entitled to rant at you similarly, because the Museum of Hoaxes September Morn piece does include a detailed reference to Delve, with a long quote from the article including all the detail I subsequently added, and giving the origin as a "Kings Feature" syndicated article. A quick Google search on the terms "Suzanne Delve King features" on my server (Netherlands) gives a link to the relevant newspaper.com link as its first hit, which I copied on to the forum for your attention

There are indeed paedophiles who are aroused by pictures of babies in nappies. We've already been there. It was your first remark to me in the forum and in my reply I said I would similarly oppose Wikipedia valorizing any such image that sought to eroticize its subject. The point about September Morn is that does strive to eroticize its subject, not in terms of its nudity but in its treatment, which is arguably voyeuristic in intent, and if not deliberately intended as such, can certainly be fantasised as such.

I'm entirely disinterested in the subject's age, because whatever her age, Chabas plainly portrayed her as under-age, a subjective opinion I'm entitled to and one shared at least by a critic at The New York Times you quote. Men fantasise not only about breasts but also about bottoms. In this image the hip development is definitely girlish rather than adult, as was the case with Manet's Olympia, an image of which you warmed to your satisfaction for the discerning connoisseurs at Wikipedia's Featured Pictures.

You can have me here until about 10:30 when I fly out. I should have flown out this afternoon, but I was nursing the mother of all hangovers following festivities in bonny old Scotland. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Film notes

Plot of the lost September Morn:

"SEPTEMBER MORN (Feb. 26).— Dennis is a good seaman, but is totally deficient in skin adornments, so dear to a sailor's heart. He sees with envy the various tattooed designs upon the arms and chests of other members of the crew, and his first day ashore seizes the opportunity to have his own person treated in a like manner. On visiting Ali he is shown a book of designs, all of which he scorns until he sees the picture of the shrinking maiden standing in the chilly water. This meets his entire approval and at his request Ali tattoos the picture upon his chest. Now Genevieve, Dennis' sweetheart, is the energetic leader of the Purity League and conducts a militant campaign against all representations of the human figure unadorned. Raiding a shop where the "September Morn" is prominently displayed in the window, she meets her Waterloo and Is washed out of the door by a powerful stream of water from a hose directed by the indignant proprietor. Smarting from her defeat she returns home just in time to greet Dennis proud of the aid to beauty which he has just acquired. Her horror at seeing the offending picture upon his chest may he imagined. The sorrowful Dennis is sent back to Ali to have the beauty clothed. Dennis does as bidden, but selects the split skirt for the purpose. When Genevieve sees the result she is even more indignant and insists upon accompanying Dennis to the tattoo artist, where she has the split skirt sewed up, the figure fully and respectably clothed and the "Votes for Women" added.

• Source: "September Morn". Moving Picture World. 19 (8): 1008. February 21, 1914.

Colour

Quote from article "The painting is dominated by grays: the gray of the woman's shaded body, the blue-grays of the September water, the green-grays of the sky, and the pink-grays of the hills". The accompanying image is dominated by yellows, which suggests that the varnish has degraded, or that it's heavily stained with nicotine and tar, due to close examination by people smoking pipes and cigarettes. The title of the painting sometimes gets rendered by OCR software as "September Mom". Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• I know, Xanthomelanoussprog, it's been bugging me too. The yellowed scan is from the MET, so unless they had a serious issue with their scanner, it's pretty damn accurate to what the painting looks like now. This scan appears to be from a 1961 artbook, "Carson, Gerald. (1961). "They knew what they liked." American Heritage. 12(5)" (coverage of said artbook in Life uses a scan with similar colours). I don't think anyone's actually written about the staining the painting appears to have undergone though, so I don't think we can reference that it has changed. Perhaps the most we can do now is phrase that in the past tense. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:18, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Now who to ask... or maybe this has something. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:21, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'll ask (soon as I can work out which person to ask). I did try a quick rebalancing in an image editor- it brings out a lot of subtlety in the landscape (and it brings out details such as a coat hidden behind the bush in the lower left). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks. I wonder if, in a case like this, we'd be able to cite personal communications. It's usually a really big no-no, but for such an obviously pertinent piece of information, which is not covered in secondary sources... I'd think an exception should be allowed.

BTW, I've added yet another damned version of who the model was. Together with the one mentioned above by We hope, I count seven different versions of the story. The provenance itself has at least two versions (that Ortiz got the original painting, brought it to NY, couldn't sell it, then sent it to Paris to sell to Mantashev [like appears mentioned in a couple sources that are snippet view], or that an American [perhaps Ortiz] tried to buy it, couldn't pay the asking price, and was sent on his way). This would be a hell of a journal article, if my field were art history. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:56, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Just downloaded the pdf of the book- Chabas is on p 221 (book is an unsearchable scan). It suggests the head belongs to an American girl, Julie Phillips (later Mrs Thompson) who was sitting with her mother in a Paris cafe. Chabas saw her profile and thought it was exactly what he was looking for; he sketched her and then introduced himself and apologised for his presumption. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 10:47, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• I, er... kinda already added that. I was also able to download the book. Nothing on the (dis)colouration, though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry! Getting behind the times here :) Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 10:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• No worries! This is far from my field of expertise, so it's nice to have extra eyes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:59, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments

I'd make the lead pic bigger - probably move outside the infobox, and move "reception" much higher, perhaps after "Description". Ideally expand it. You can easily crop details out with Commons crop tool, & a detail of the girl lower down might be a good idea. I must say I'd never heard of this painting, & otherwise the article seems pretty good on a quick look. You might spell out, sources permitting, that the point of the title is presumably to indicate that the water is somewhat chilly - I expect the extra vulnerability/discomfort of the girl that this conveys has been commented on somewhere. You might add some background on the very complex issue of attitudes to female nudes in art at the period, and why this attracted especial ire - or was it just because it was so popular? Johnbod (talk) 11:56, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the feedback, John! I've been toying with the idea of moving the controversy section into the reception section (it is technically a form of reception, in the most general sense) but that section depends rather heavily on the reader understanding the controversy over the painting. That's the same reason why I'm not too sure the Reception section would do well before the #History section (particularly how Chabas viewed the work).

Sources so far have not linked "September" with "chilly" explicitly, although several have noted that she appears quite cold (though they don't link that to vulnerability or innocence so far).

I agree that background on the issue of nudity in art in France and the US (Le Déjeuner sur l’herbe, etc.) would definitely be worthwhile, especially before an FA run.12:20, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd keep controversy & reception apart, & concentrate on US attitudes only, as the painting, or its reproductions, don't seem to have aroused particular controversy in France, though that in itself might be commented on. Johnbod (talk) 12:43, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'll have to keep an eye out. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

JSTOR hits

That I don't think are used yet (not saying they should be, & I've not checked)

• James J. Rorimer, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, New Series, Vol. 16, No. 1 (Summer, 1957), Published by: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3257718
• I'd make more use of Pattison
• Lawrence and Pascin, Alfred Werner, The Kenyon Review, Vol. 23, No. 2 (Spring, 1961), pp. 217-228, Published by: Kenyon College, Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4334113 - should use
• Interesting comparison - Georg Sauter and the "Bridal Morning", Albert Boime, American Art Journal, Vol. 2, No. 2 (Autumn, 1970), pp. 72-80, Published by: Kennedy Galleries, Inc., Article DOI: 10.2307/1593898, Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1593898

Johnbod (talk) 13:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Re: Pattison: The controversy over nudity? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:11, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Controversies over nudity

(Drafting area for a background section)

Fair use, abstracts

I am sorry to see that both my Tennessee Williams quote and Fae Brauer abstract have been reverted by a Wikipedia administrator. The Williams loss is especially sad because it accurately represented what an American male of the period really thought of the painting. I should have thought a few lines from a play was acceptable Fair Use.

As for the abstract, it's true that they are copyrighted to the publisher. But in academia there's a long spoken tradition that abstracts can be freely disseminated in the interest of open access. Plainly the administrator here thinks otherwise.

This article needs to set Chabas' paedophilia within the context of, for example, Johns Ruskin's and Lewis Carroll's i.e. within the late Victorian tradition of the so-called "erotic innocent girl" identified by Kincaid, Dijkstra et al. I have to say I find its overt intent to re-establish Chabas as an artist of note both ridiculous and deeply deeply suspect. 103.27.231.206 (talk) 02:29, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• First and foremost, in terms of copyright Wikipedia's policies are generally a lot stricter than academia in general. I am a literary major, and in a journal article it would not only be proper but almost expected to quote paragraph upon paragraph of copyrighted works if they are pertinent to my analysis. Wikipedia, however, is not like that, and if we intend to have our best articles "free" in every sense of the word we need to avoid over-reliance on non-free material. If Bauer's willing to release her abstract under a license compatible with Wikipedia, then by all means lets quote away.

Williams, on the other hand, cannot give a free license to his work (for obvious reasons) and the main gist of it is already clear from the sentence in the article, and including the whole quote (particularly in running text) is undue weight. Now, if a published reliable source claims that this " accurately represented what an American male of the period really thought of the painting", we might be able to make a strong enough rationale to include it (and I probably would argue for inclusion). However, as of yet we only have a passing mention in a 1957 play without any sourced critical commentary. That would not fulfill the non-free content criteria.

Now, as to "Chabas' paedophilia" (if he were living that statement would be deleted under the BLP policy, and even now the literature does not support an unqualified statement that he was a paedophile): I agree that the position of minors and nudity in art is important to this article, as is the issue of nudity in art in general, but we cannot build an entire paragraph on two abstracts by one author and expect it to be understood as comprehensive and (reasonably) unbiased. At the very least I want to have access to the article(s) proper, including the writer's rationale for making the statements in the abstract, before detailed information can be included. I am trying to contact Brauer regarding the article she published, and if she responds positively then key points of her analysis will definitely find its way here.

As for your closing note, about an "overt intent to re-establish Chabas as an artist of note"... You assume much too much. I couldn't care less if he's seen as an artist of note, an academic who only did art because its fashionable, or what have you. I want to cover this painting because it was a (ridiculously popular) social phenomenon, with a very interesting and complicated history. I particularly resent the "deeply deeply suspect" comment at the end; the implications are borderline personal attacks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:30, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the fact is that Ruskin, Carroll and Chabas are dead and their paedophilia routinely cited. I think you are disingenuous to assert this article isn't an attempt to rehabilitate Chabas' reputation. It plainly is, and it should examine his paedophilia without attempting to repress it. I can understand that you feel personally attacked, but you have taken upon yourself a task which lays you open to such attack. It works both ways. Welcome to the mill. 103.27.231.160 (talk) 09:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

What's prompted your sudden and special interest in Chabas then, that you log in from "Indonesia" to scrape and paste two quotes from the net? Keith 09:44, 21 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toirdhealbach (talk • contribs)

I've been editing on Chabas both here and elsewhere for a little time now (it's not "sudden"). I'm away from home presently and when I'm abroad I'm careful not to use my Wikipedia account. I made that clear in a concluding post here and also on my Talk page. I'm aware that IP addresses can be easily sourced to a location, but if it's all the same to you I would be glad if you would avoid broadcasting my locations. I just wanted to continue the conversation a little while longer. 103.27.231.160 (talk) 10:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• By the sheerest of coincidences, apparently, Toird's comment above applies to both of us. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• @103: If it were a conscious "attempt to rehabilitate Chabas' reputation", would it be done by someone who is not in the field of art criticism? As for "Ruskin, Carroll and Chabas['] ... paedophilia routinely cited", I do not see any scholarly consensus either way. That it is still discussed and questioned, rather than accepted as the truth, indicates that you are oversimplifying.

• I don't see why it should necessarily be. I don't wish to indulge what you might feel is a personal attack, but it could equally be attempted by someone with pretensions to be an art critic. You are a photographer who uploads many fine images to Wikipedia and likes to get them featured on Wikipedia. have warmly supported many of your nominations in recent weeks. The same group is also active in promoting art images. As you know I find that a somewhat curious and pointless enterprise. I've withdrawn from supporting those nominations, but I did give fair warning on my Talk page that I would oppose images I thought inappropriate. With respect, a number of posts by you and your colleagues there make it clear that you are attempting to rehabilitate Chabas, or at least get him better recognised. This really has to be my last contribution, because I'm being doxxed and I do have to be careful where I am (which is not Indonesia :)). 103.27.231.160 (talk) 10:20, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

@Toird: Coming across the image and wanting to improve the article. I've done it before. I wrote Extermination of Evil so that four of the five could become FP, Island of Lost Men for the poster to be featured, and The Princess from the Land of Porcelain for that painting's FPC nomination. This one was already extant, but started expanding it because of the poor quality of the original article; the sheer insanity of its history (getting caught up in the Russian revolution, controversies in Chicago and New York, the marketing frenzy, the amount of contradicting stories about how it was created, etc.) and relatively ready availability of sources made me interested in going even further. Or are you saying you'd rather the article looked like this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

And what's with putting "Indonesia" in scare quotes? That I am here is patently obvious from Wikimedia Indonesia websites, my own editing history, and can be readily verified by asking a Wikimedian I've met in person. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)