Talk:Kobani

storm OR liberate OR capture

Lets sort this out before we have a list of editions on this little article. IF you ARE referring to a source, search for your word...does the Rudaw article mention "capture"? or is it "liberate"? Hiwakan (talk) 20:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Rudaw would not be considered a reliable source. And even if it is, "liberated" is not a neutral word, nor is "stormed". The first is biased in favor of the opposition, while the second is biased in favor of the regime. The best word be "captured" because it just states fact. The Eurasia Review, which is reliable, simply writes that the YPG "assumed control" of the city. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Etana source

I doubt this Etana source, its credibility and the source of their numbers. In the absence of any official numbers (or even estimates), anyone can give any number on the constituents. The report also cites that 40% of the Kurdish fighters in the city came from Turkey, creating another source of uncertainty. I suggest removing the proportion numbers altogether. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

City founded by Ottoman. So, why kurdish city?

The city was founded by the ottoman turks, kurds migrated and settled later on. So why is it a kurdish city? It does not make any sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.153.132 (talk) 13:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Problem resolved. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Its not a "kurdish city" there are some people on wikipedia and elsewhere that have an agenda and are attempting to rewrite history. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:35, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

A side note, a few arabic sources which depend almost exclusively on oral history suggest that the name of the city (kobani) does not have a clear kurdish meaning and that it must be have originated from another word, possibly from the word "company" in english, also the city has been established a little more than a hundred years ago, sources suggest that the name of the area was "kani" in kurdish which means "spring(s?)", the city was either established around 1911-1912 when the orient express rails were constructed (there is a question whether the "company" doing the constructions had an office there, some suggest so) or a few years earlier (1892), first "quarter" was built around 1915 by Armenian refugees, kurds from the area settled as well in the newly established "city". when the borders were set, it was along the railway, the turkish side was called "Mürşitpınar" (murshid pınar, means murshid spring) and the syrian side was called (ayn al-arab, meaning arabs spring; no pun intended), both names seem to reflect earlier kurdish names for two springs (kani murshidi and kani araba). the common/local name seems to be kobani (the street names seem to suggest that) (طريق كوباني - حلب from google maps for example)--Mayz (talk) 19:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

City Name-District Name

I see a war over the Kurdish vs Arab name of this city and area. Remember this page is under 1RR sanctions. Perhaps the warring editor would like to state their case here? Legacypac (talk) 23:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

Ayn al-Arab → Kobani – New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Al Jazeera English, CNN, RT, Bloomberg, NPR, CBS News, Haaretz English, Huffington Post, Los Angeles Times, Al Monitor English, The Guardian, NBCNews, Radio Free Europe, New York Sun, Reuters, Deutsche Welle English, Voice of America... 174.19.225.169 (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The organizations working in the area are all Kurdish, so they use the Kurdish name when they are reporting from the area in the latest events and therefor some western journalists inaccurately follow the Kurdish name. And the accurate, historical, official and original real name Ayn al Arab is used also by media:CNN, NYT, Al Jazeera. The real name of the town is Ayn al-Arab, and it is also used by the United Nations: [1] and the CIA :[2]. If we look at published books, then "Ayn al Arab" gets 20,700 hits:[3] while the false name "kobani" only gets 3,280 hits: [4]. Latest events can not change the real, historical, original and official name of the town.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose We can't simply change an OFFICIAL name for a city based on newspapers and political bias. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
• WP:OFFICIALNAME we do not use official names on Wikipedia. We use common names WP:UCN as found in English WP:UE ; So we should look at the most common name as found used in English. -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 04:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support with slight change: The name should be Kobanê. That matches the region Kobanê Canton and the Siege of Kobanê. The WP:COMMONNAME here is not even a contest. Kobane About 10,500,000 results vs "Ayn al-Arab" About 2,290,000 results and many of those pages call the city by the Kurdish name as well in the result preview. The 5:1 results have been holding as I've checked this a few times over the last few days. "Siege of Kobane" vs "Siege of Ayn al-Arab" results were 22:1 when I checked earlier today. Also as a practical matter the city has been controlled by the Syrian Kurdish govt for some time, and as the governing authority they pick the name-saying the regime's name is official rings hollow when the regime has not controlled it for quite a while. Also compelling is that I see Kurds dying not defend the place, not Arab Syrian regime troops. Legacypac (talk) 08:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

"Matches"? Then Ayn al Arab "matches" Ayn al-Arab District. The google hits are because of the latest events were news organizations are following the kurdish name because the activists reporting from the area are all kurdish, so of course they use the kurdish name. If we take a look at published books before the latest news events then "Ayn al Arab" gets 20,700 hits:[5] while the false name "kobani" only gets 3,280 hits: [6]. Wikipedia is not a newspaper should apply here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness, your constant patronizing use of "the false name 'kobani'" indicates a strong and biased WP:POV that makes it very hard to take your arguments seriously. Wikipedia does not take sides, we try to follow common usage, as indicated below.Jeppiz (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support Should be moved to Kobane immediately as per WP:UE and WP:UCN.The official name is not relevant (see Rome, not Roma, Venice not Venezia, Copenhagen not København etc.). The Wikipedia says explicitly that readers should find the article under the name they expect. In English coverage, Kobane outnumbers Ayn al-Arab by something like 10 to 1. If readers come here looking for Kobane, they should find it under that name. This is not a matter of opinion, it's Wikipedia's stated policy.Jeppiz (talk) 09:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose While I don't like the fact that the central government has named a majority Kurdish town something as provocative as "The Spring of the Arabs" (What about the Kurds?), I believe that Wikipedia should generally respect state sovereignty first and foremost. Similarly, for this reason, I support Myanmar over Burma, Côte d'Ivoire over Ivory Coast, and Timor-Leste over East Timor. Furthermore, Ayn al-Arab is recognized throughout the world community - even by the Syrian government's opponents. --Tocino 09:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Who says that its a "kurdish town" ? Its a Syrian town, kurds were not the first people who lived there. They moved in later, just like many other towns in Syria. Many different ethnic groups lived in Ayn al Arab. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Tocino's point does not follow WP policy while Supreme Deliciousness's point does not take into account that the name Ayn al Arab was imposed on Kobani in the 1980s to Arabize the place. Legacypac (talk) 11:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, sovereignty does not trump WP:UE and WP:UCN. Some years ago Italy tried to push Torino instead of Turin in English. Sovereignty is relevant if there are several names and no common English usage. In this case, there most certainly is common English usage. Jeppiz (talk) 09:32, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is on English world maps you will see the town listed as Ayn al-Arab, and not as Kobane. That's not the case with Torino, København, Venezia, etc. --Tocino 09:39, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not a problem, no. It's not unusual that more than one name is sometimes used in English (Bozen/Bolzano or Lyons/Lyon or Raseborg/Raasepori to take a few examples). In those cases, we still stick to the rules of WP:UCN so if one name is in more common use, we use that one. Sometimes, as in Finland, Switzerland or Italy, we go with the name of the majority population in the place itself. In the case of Kobane, that's Kobane. So even if we did not have a much more comononly used name in English, Wikipedia would still favour Kobane. But as it is, Kobane is used 10 to 1 in English. The article about the battle of the city is called Siege of Kobanê so it's mightily illogic to use another name here.Jeppiz (talk) 10:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Tocino, but your argument that state sovereignty comes first would mean overturning some well-established decisions of Wikipedia in favour of Burma, Ivory Coast and East Timor. PatGallacher (talk) 23:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Nice try, but those are not "well-established" decisions at all. Every time those three articles get RM'd they get scores of inputs and are generally argued to death. The decision to move the article for Myanmar to Burma in 2007 was particularly controversial. --Tocino 09:20, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

There is also Taiwan and Republic of Ireland. I don't think those are likely to be moved anytime soon. "Republic of China" and "Ireland" are official and constitutionally enshrined. Claimsworth (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Support Syria is a multi-cultural and multi-linguistic country, hence places have multiple names in different languages. There is not one "true" name with the rest being "false". That is as absurd as saying there is a "true" language, and that the rest are "false". Aleppo and Damascus have multiple names, and in the English Wikipedia we use the most common English name. Not the official one, not the name most used by the locals, not the original etymon. All this favours Kobani. 88.170.241.162 (talk) 06:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support. On Highbeam for the last two years, I get 118 news stories for the current title. For the proposed form, I get 379 for "Kobani Syria" plus 136 for "Kobane Syria." I don't think the town has ever been in the international spotlight before, so what books published years ago might have called it is less relevant. Claimsworth (talk) 08:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

As you said, it was in the news yesterday, less today, and less tomorrow. What will remain from this dust storm is the actual name and the name on maps (look up Google maps). Again, ISIL might even give it a new name, who knows. Cheers. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 12:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:CRYSTAL.Jeppiz (talk) 15:42, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Should be moved to Kobane immediately as per WP:UE and WP:UCN. --جیمبو دامبلی دیمبو (talk) 16:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Support. Only disingenuous pov bias would keep one from realizing that the name of the article should clearly be Kobani (English spelling) with a note of the Kurdish spelling (Kobanê) and clarification that the city was formerly referred to as Ayn al-Arab.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:26, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Formerly? on October 6 2014 United Nations called it Ayn al-Arab:[7] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:30, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting but the UN is very concerned with sovereignty of nation states, and not common names or WP policy which seriously favors the Kurdish name. Legacypac (talk) 09:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support Kobane or Kobani is what everybody is calling it in English language media, never heard it called by the other name. Also, as it has a predominantly Kurdish population presumably this is how it is known to the majority of its inhabitants. PatGallacher (talk) 18:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Strong support for the same reasons PatGallacher mentions. Either Kobani (Kobanî?) or Kobanê would be fine. Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules

It might be relevant for the discussion above to keep in mind what WP:UCN states as Wikipedia policy:
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change.

All of this would seem to favour Kobane. We don't need to use the official name. We should use the name most frequently used in English references (Kobane). If the situation changes (as it has with the Syrian civil war), we should give preference to more recent WP:RS, and they almost unanimously favours Kobane. So if we want to follow Wikipedia policies (and we do), I don't see how we could not move the article to Kobane.Jeppiz (talk) 10:50, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

All of this would favour Ayn al-Arab per policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper. We would have to look at published books before the latest events. Google books gives "Ayn al Arab" gets 20,700 hits:[8] while the false name "kobani" only gets 3,280 hits: [9]. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Jeppiz, if you are going by the common name, then ISIL might give it a different name, would we have to follow the new name then? BTW, the "Kobani Canton" (and other alleged "Cantons") should be deleted or at best merged with Ayn al-Arab District, since there is nothing on the ground with that name. It's just a political entity the YPG has invented with no international recognition what soever. Even other Kurds (Kurdish National Council and Iraqi Kurdistan) are not recognizing that. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:09, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, please read WP:CRYSTAL.Jeppiz (talk) 15:42, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper has zero to do with this discussion. We are not discussing the notability of this city or the events happening in it. Rather Naming Conventions - geographic names should guide us.

History of the Name: Took some serious searching but finally found this researched article hich says "...in the Aleppo countryside, is the Kurdish community of Kobani. (State policy Arabized this town’s name in the 1980s to ‘Ayn al-‘Arab, meaning the “spring of the Arabs.” The running joke among residents is that the town has neither Arabs nor a spring.)" Evidently "Ayn al-Arab" is a fairly recent political and ethnic driven construct over the historical name that the residents rejected. Since the State withdrew its forces from the area in July 2013, leaving the Kurds in control, it seems like the Kurds can pick the official name, and choose to keep using old name. Legacypac (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:41, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness said above: "Latest events can not change the real, historical, original and official name of the town". The quoted article is by Kevin Mazur, a doctoral candidate at the Department of Politics at Princeton University and Kheder Khaddour is a visiting fellow at the Carnegie Middle East Center. The organization was founded in 1971, has an expert board of directors and an editorial board filled with academics from leading universities. Rejecting http://www.merip.org/about as a reliable source shows a total lack of understanding of WP policy or good judgement and an opinion that can safely be ignored as POV. Legacypac (talk) 15:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed; this does look like a reliable source. Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:09, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

WP's Middle_East_Research_and_Information_Project own article on the source says: According to JSTOR, The Middle East Report "is the foremost U.S. magazine of critical analysis on the Middle East", with 25,000 US and global readers and more than 700 educational and institutional subscriptions. Legacypac (talk) 18:44, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, JSTOR hosts the MERIP Reports and Middle East Reports from 1971 to 2010, so they have a vested interest in promoting it. But Mazur and Khaddour's article can stand on its own strengths. Q·L·1968 ☿ 20:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Kobani vs Kobane

I ran some searches on Kobani vs Kobane and found mixed results depending if you search news vs web and over what time period. On our articles we seem to use Kobane consistently including Syrian_Kurdistan Kobanê_Canton and Siege of Kobane and of course this page was once at Kobanê. So between the i and the e we should use the e. Legacypac (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, Kobane seems to be more common and it's consistent with usage in other articles.Jeppiz (talk) 13:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

English media seems to have settled on "Kobani" now. Just some examples from today:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/08/new-air-strikes-isis-pressure-win-kobani-syria-kurds-turkey

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-town-of-kobani-on-turkish-border-will-fall-to-isis-turkish-leader-says-1.2789820

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The English spelling would use an "i", as English does not have the letter "ě". However, that is an I sound in English. Spelling it Kobane, makes the name "Ko bane" (like Kurt the singer, ironically spelled with an i himself). However, in Kurdish Kobaně is a 3 syllable word, not 2 (which is what spelling it Kobane makes it). As such, the only two options are an "i" or an "ě". Since Wiki articles in English usually only use English letters, I'd say an "i" = Kobani, makes the most sense.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy with either an i or an e. For the record, however English Wikipedia articles routinely use non-English symbols in foreign place names; with redirects, that's not a problem. (Also it's ê not ě.) Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

No one in the world calls this place anything but Kobane. I am changing it back — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.104.6 (talk) 00:46, 11 October 2014 (UTC)