Talk:Kashmir conflict

Wikipedia:No original research

This article contains a lot of content especially in Indian view and Pakistan view which is WP:OR and source does not directly relate it with topic and seams to be Original research of the editors So we have to remove it because "No original research" (NOR) is one of three core content policies of Wikipedia. HIAS (talk) 08:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. If you find WP:OR, please tag it with the {{citation needed}} tag. If the content misrepresents the source you can use {{not in source}}. If it is blatantly wrong, you can remove it. But, this being a contentious subject, better to discuss it first. If there is a "Main article" link, you would need to check the main article for citations. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 09:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Hitch Hicking Across Sahara: Agree with Kautilya, you should discuss things on talk page before removing major content from the article. It is very controversial topic and is under discretionary sanctions. It has been experience with such kind of articles that some editors edit such article with specific POV which is not good for Wikipedia. To avoid unnecessary disputes, edit wars, page protection and blocks, it will be better to start issue at article's talk page first if your change is going to be major. Thank you. --Human3015^TALK  10:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello,
Thanks for being the part of discussion,So let me explain one by one

1. In first paragraph about Two Nation Theory, the source does not relate the material with Kashmir conflict, its WP:OR of the editor, who is relating it with the topic. If the editor can present a reliable source which clearly says that Two Nation Theory is the cause of Kashmir conflict,I have no problem with that.
2. Second one is a Blog and not even close to WP:RS because anyone can create a blog or Private site and can add misleading contents. http://web.archive.org is private site and the content is not present on any other official site so it is WP:OR of editor per Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reliable_sources which clearly states that "Material for which no reliable source can be found is considered original research."
3. Third one is again dead links and the material is unrelated with Kashmir conflict, its WP:OR of the editor, who is relating it with the topic.

HIAS (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Link to the disputed material [1].

• Regarding 1, I see a clear relationship established in the Redgrave article: "For India, the state--now divided by a "line of control"--is fully a part of the Indian union; with its 65-percent Muslim population, it stands as a symbolic rebuttal to the "two nation" theory that underlay the founding of Pakistan. Moreover, India asserts that Kashmir's inclusion in India serves as a guarantor of the secular state." I am not sure what you have checked.
• Regarding 2, I am afraid you are wrong on several counts. A full citation for a Government of India web document has been given, and a convenience link has been provided for an archive. If you want to verify it, it is your responsibility to track down the source. If you are unable to find the source, you can raise an issue or request a copy from other editors. In no case can you remove the content calling it OR. Just by doing a simple search, I found the original on the MEA web site [2]. So, it doesn't seem to me that you have done an honest effort to find the source.
• Regarding 3, again, dead links are not reason enough to claim that content is unsourced. It is true that the UN presentations on terrorism do not mention Kashmir. But there is enough sourced discussion in other parts of the article on terrorism in Kashmir including reports from the US, e.g., this statement: US intelligence analysts say Al-Qaeda and Taliban operatives in Pakistan-administered Kashmir are helping terrorists trained in Afghanistan to infiltrate Indian-administered Kashmir.[63] So you can't claim that the relationship is not established.
• I also see another bullet point that you removed regarding human rights violations in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. I presume that you have no argument to support its deletion.

So, on the whole, this was a poor effort at identifying WP:OR. Unfortunately, you haven't followed my recommendation for tagging content rather than deleting it. So, if you persist in this way, I will have to take the issue to the admins. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Hitch Hicking Across Sahara: I agree with you. See Two nation theory was basis of India Pakistan division. Pakistan was made by combining Muslim majiority areas and India is comprising of Hindu majiority areas. For States such as Kashmir, Hyderabad ,Junagadh and manavadar two factors (Religon and Accestion by ruler) were to be considered at the time of partition. Muslim majiority states Kashmir's raja accesed to india while Hindu Majiority Hyderabad, Junagadh and manavadar states declined India. Still India attacked Hyderabad, Junagadh and manavadar states on the grounds that majiority of population of these states in Hindu. How can now some one from India claim India a secular state. It is a Hindu state who want to occupy Muslim Kashmir. Original researchs to show India innocent while one million Indian forces keeping kashmiri people in a jail just like palestine is a misleading presentation of facts. Imnesty international Human rights commision reports show how thousand of children women and old/ young kashmiris were tortured and killed by calling them militant. There single mistake was that they are asking india to accept United nation resulution to give kashmiris right of self determination. I am sorry to be called a Human by watching modren world for the sake of patriotism killing 9 year old kashmiri child. SAD STATE. 39.47.75.200 (talk) 16:19, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I want to apologize for my Previous edit ,actually i was confused by the statement "Material for which no reliable source can be found is considered original research." mentioned on Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reliable_sources, Dead links, Poorly sourced sites, and the Material which was a little bit different from the topic. Since i am a new editor so i expect suggestions from fellow editors. Thank you HIAS (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Great, thanks. I look forward to seeing better editing from you in future. - Kautilya3 (talk) 12:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Rongxing Guo source

@Hitch Hicking Across Sahara: I think this material [3] is WP:UNDUE. This is a book on a large number of border conflicts with a two-page summary on Jammu and Kashmir, with no sources given. We can't be sure of the author's depth of knowledge of the dispute. On the fact of it, there haven't been "many attempts" at resolving the Kashmir dispute. After the 1948 resolution, pretty much nothing happened. It is also not true that no "substantial progress" has been made. The Simla Agreement where the two countries agreed on a Line of Control, which is now considered "sacrosanct" internationally is substantial progress. Also, your page number is wrong. There is nothing Kashmir-related on p. 68. I can't find a mention of "UN charter" anywhere in the book. So I intend to delete these additions. - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Here is the link for page number 68 and UN Charter is present here. HIAS (talk) 11:51, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. It turns out that I was looking at a different book which also had similar text. You can use our citation tool to generate full citations for Google books. Still, my argument of WP:UNDUE remains. There is no coverage of "many attempts" in the article and the "no progress" claim has been contradicted by the author himself when he mentioned the Simla Agreement later. So, I propose the deletion of that sentence. The UN charter is fine. - Kautilya3 (talk) 12:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Here is complete text of Shimla agreement and UN Charter is mentioned in 1st and 5th point. While "for Progress" Wait, Let me search for alternate Sources . HIAS (talk) 12:42, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Removed about Progress . HIAS (talk) 13:00, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

In short, Pakistan holds

@Hitch Hicking Across Sahara:, this material [4] doesn't make sense. The bullet points begin with "In short, Pakistan holds that...". Your insertion is neither "in short" nor is it the voice of "Pakistan." It is just a private columnist who is not a reliable source any way. So this is no good. - Kautilya3 (talk) 15:01, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I will search for an alternate Source. HIAS (talk) 00:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Indo-Pakistan war of 1947 - revert

@NA122: Welcome to Wikipedia. Unfortunately, "substantial changes" is not a reason enough to revert here [5]. If you reinstate deleted material the WP:BURDEN to defend it transfers it to you. You need to demonstrate that my reasons for deleting viz, "Deleting rehash of accession already covered in the earlier section along with WP:OR and editorializing" are not sound. Please do it now, or self-revert. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I have restored it back to the version from 10 October. [6]. I will give you 24 hours to produce sources for the deleted material. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

No response in 24 hours. So I am reinstating my deletion. Another IP edit-warred complaining about "militant Muslims". I will use a sourced term "Muslim rebels." It is not appropriate to use "Muslim Kashmiris" because the real Kashmiris, the ethnic Kashmiris, fought the rebels and raiders. - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:24, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

39.47.97.40, why don't you discuss your issues [7] on the talk page? - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3 24 hours to respond ? is there any such policy. I agree with you to the extent of repeat sentences but for other things let us all disscuss and conclude. NA122 (talk) 05:43, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

New additions

I made addition with multiple Indian and Pakistani sources for J & K high court decision . New additions by Kautilya and others have no cross verifiable nuetral sources. 39.32.191.139 (talk) 06:48, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

hi IP. Where did court said "Kashmir never merged with India"? It only says "Kashmir did not merge with India the way other princely states merged", and "it has special status and limited sovereignty under article 370 of Indian constitution". Actually Wikipedia is not news. There is no need of inclusion of this statement because court has said nothing new. Kashmir has special status and limited sovereignty is fact since Independence of India or since Indian constitution is established which has been already mentioned in article. But still we are including it in neutral manner the way court said. Nationalistic news papers can give headlines like "Kashmir High court says Kashmir never merged with India" and we can't do anything for that if they are doing it for their satisfaction. Court said "Kashmir did not merge with India like other princely states merged but it has limited sovereignty under article 370 of Indian constitution". --Human3015^TALK  07:42, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

"New additions by Kautilya and others have no cross-verifiable neutral sources" - Wikipedia sources are expected to be reliable not "neutral." See WP:BIASED. I am listing my sources here. If you want to argue about their reliability, please do so. "Cross verification" is your problem. You can bring other sources if you wish and we can cross-compare them.

You should also note that the material you reinstated is unsourced. You cannot reinstate it. This article is under discretionary sanctions. Edit-warring here can get you blocked. - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

References

39.32.222.65 Your reasons for the revert [8]? - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:56, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Human you yourself added Newspaper source. where is court order link? please add that before deleting 5 sources added by me. Limited soverignity not exactly i.e. according to instrument of accestion Para 4 and 6 says only telecommunication, defence and Forign affairs is with India. The remaining 17 ministries are with State's own government. Court clearly say JK never merged India. It is clear 17 our of 20 ministries are with state. No indian can buy land in J&K then how can you deny what court said. Kautilya3 Reliablity is only ensured via cross verfication. Your refrences are NOT reliable sources. Keeping in mind This article is under discretionary sanctions "not any ones desktop setting wishfully manipulated. 39.32.222.65 (talk) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

User:39.32.222.65, Reliability is based on the definition given in WP:RS. Your objections must be policy-based. "Cross verification" is your problem. I have already mentioned that above. Do you have any reliable sources that contradict my sources? - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, I support that IP's version. We do, however, need a reliable source for China's active military support otherwise I will remove that form the infobox. Please stick to WP:NPOV, the IP version sticks to that. How you can present one-sided view of the conflict by naming the Pakistani battles as "invasion". The same is known in Pakistan for Indian battles and the landing of Indian personnel in Srinagar. The Maharaja solely signed the instrument in return for aid, Kautilya, why you keep removing that? Faizan (talk) 14:46, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict):::@IP: Don't add any original research. In short, Sovereignty means nation which has its own President/Prime Minister as supreme leader without interference of any other nation. It is not case with Jammu and Kashmir. It has "limited" sovereignty. Read Preamble of Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir which says "Jammu & Kashmir is and shall remain integral part of Union of India". These are not my words, this is written in preamble of constitution of J & K on which High Court of JK works. And this line is un-amendable, even of state assembly of JK decides to amend its constitution still according to some other provisions in same constitution state assembly can't amend some part of JK constitution which connects JK to India. In Indian parliament there are members which represents JK and you are saying JK is sovereign? JK do has limited sovereignty as said by High court and this is not any new thing that court has said. JK has such kind of special status since 26 January 1950 when Indian constitution was established. Court accepts that JK has merged with India but it only says that it was not like other princely states because other states don't have special status like JK. --Human3015^TALK  14:49, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, Faizan, this is not the first time you have supported IP versions. But in case you haven't noticed the IPs have been edit-warring on a page with discretionary sanctions. Ok, enough of that.

But you are mistaken. I never removed the military aid. "Invasion" is reliably sourced. You can read the source. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:54, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Faizan, it is expected that you will support IPs version as usual and we all know why. But don't try to insert that version or edit war, IPs version clearly says that "Kashmir is sovereign state" which is a gross POV and OR which may lead you to topic ban. So be aware on this issue. --Human3015^TALK  15:01, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

It is also expected that you will support D4iNa4's version and we all know why. @Kautilya3, "Invasion" would still be a violation of NPOV, I do not dispute RS, as many Indian sources would call the Pakistani attack as "invasion", the same would be true for almost all Pakistani sources which would call the Indian attack as invasion. Faizan (talk) 15:08, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Instead of giving explanation regarding why you are supporting biased version of IP regarding "sovereignty" of Kashmir you are bringing some other issue here as usual. Do not make wikipedia a battleground as you usually make. Regarding word "invasion", it is not NPOV word according to Pakistan view, but it is NPOV word according to international NPOV view, on quick search I found some neutral sources calling it a "invasion" [9], [10], [11]. We write according to neutral reliable sources, not according to national agendas, either it is Pakistan or India. --Human3015^TALK  15:41, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

@Faizan: I am glad to see you that do not dispute the RS. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Why is this nonsense going on?

1) J&K constituent assembly is governed by J&K constitution whose preamble makes it clear that it gains its legitimacy from the Union of India and the Constitution of India.

"WE, THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR,
having solemnly resolved, in pursuance of the accession of this State to India which took place on the twenty sixth day of October, 1947, to further define the existing relationship of the State with the Union of India as an integral part thereof, and to secure to ourselves-

JUSTICE, social, economic and political;

LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;

EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among us all;

FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of the nation;

IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this seventeenth day of November, 1956, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION."

-Preamble of Constitution of Jammu & Kashmir.

2) India has not only Article 370, but similar ones like Article 371A for north-eastern states. Does that mean that they do not belong to India? What rubbish!! Ghatus (talk) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Ghatus, this "nonsense" is going on because of IP 39 and its supporters. This is very clear cut issue. IP was just misinterpreting Court's remarks to push POV. IP also added some other non-relevant things to this topic. Article was in good shape before, there was no need to change things. Still just to assume good faith I supported IP to add court's remarks but in neutral way, we should write what exactly court said, not what Pakistani news papers published regarding court's issue. I wonder how they can give headlines like "Kashmir was never merged with India, says Kashmir High Court". This only shows standard of media.--Human3015^TALK  16:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

On a lighter note, the Supreme Court of India would have said in such situations- "We can't entertain each and every nonsense." ha..ha..Ghatus (talk) 16:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

References

Sincere efforts

We all can make sicere efforts to resolve content dispute. Please no one try to disturb pre dispute position. NA122 (talk) 09:53, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Avenger has made this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kashmir_conflict&type=revision&diff=686475498&oldid=686475046. Although all this was already sorted out but respecting 3R i am not un doing Avenger. NA122 (talk) 09:59, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Human3015 Ghatus Is using talk page to disscuss things is non sense for you ? (SECTION: Why is this nonsense going on?). Kautilya3 Human3015 has broken 3 R rule in 24 hours see [12] [13][14] are you going to report him just like you applied for page protection against the opposition? Time has come that we must expand article with step by step talk page disscussions rather then forcing our views with page protection gimmics. NA122 (talk) 10:24, 19 October 2015 (UTC)