Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels/archive1: Difference between revisions
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: Hi {{ping|Sarastro1|p=}}, thanks. Yes, the refs are ordered by pertinence, not numerically. The "top games" sentence was discussed with IDV's comments above. I specifically avoided making a "worst in series" claim (what would "worst" mean?) but the articles did call the game among the "bottom tier" (#26 of 35) of the series and the other source implied the same (#16 of 18). Based on that, it wouldn't be appropriate to describe its legacy as illustrious or even lukewarm, and short of more descriptive language, the rankings do clearly show that the game was among the least important in the series. The argument is similar for the listing at #117 of 125—the least important of Nintendo's top games, though that's a mouthful. I think it would be more deceptive to omit that it was at the bottom of the list by saying only that it was just included in a list of top games without describing where it stood in that list. (And for what it's worth, I think that writing "ranked 117 of 125" instead of the qualitative description would make for shoddy prose. The sentence is also not written declaratively, with its rank/position as incontrovertible fact, but neutrally offers that journalists have ranked it in this position, which the sources support and which other sources can certainly refute, were they to exist.) Happy to discuss further, but know that it has indeed been discussed here, in the edit history, and on the article's talk page. <span style="background:#F0F0FF; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em Avenir;color:#B048B5'>czar</span>]]</span> 00:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC) |
: Hi {{ping|Sarastro1|p=}}, thanks. Yes, the refs are ordered by pertinence, not numerically. The "top games" sentence was discussed with IDV's comments above. I specifically avoided making a "worst in series" claim (what would "worst" mean?) but the articles did call the game among the "bottom tier" (#26 of 35) of the series and the other source implied the same (#16 of 18). Based on that, it wouldn't be appropriate to describe its legacy as illustrious or even lukewarm, and short of more descriptive language, the rankings do clearly show that the game was among the least important in the series. The argument is similar for the listing at #117 of 125—the least important of Nintendo's top games, though that's a mouthful. I think it would be more deceptive to omit that it was at the bottom of the list by saying only that it was just included in a list of top games without describing where it stood in that list. (And for what it's worth, I think that writing "ranked 117 of 125" instead of the qualitative description would make for shoddy prose. The sentence is also not written declaratively, with its rank/position as incontrovertible fact, but neutrally offers that journalists have ranked it in this position, which the sources support and which other sources can certainly refute, were they to exist.) Happy to discuss further, but know that it has indeed been discussed here, in the edit history, and on the article's talk page. <span style="background:#F0F0FF; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em Avenir;color:#B048B5'>czar</span>]]</span> 00:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC) |
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::I see the discussion now (this is why it's not always helpful to collapse comments, but never mind). I'm still not entirely convinced that the reference really justifies saying it is one of the least important of Nintendo's top games, but I doubt it's worth holding the review up over this. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 11:05, 24 June 2017 (UTC) |
::I see the discussion now (this is why it's not always helpful to collapse comments, but never mind). I'm still not entirely convinced that the reference really justifies saying it is one of the least important of Nintendo's top games, but I doubt it's worth holding the review up over this. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 11:05, 24 June 2017 (UTC) |
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{{FACClosed|promoted}} [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 11:05, 24 June 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:05, 24 June 2017
Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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- Nominator(s): czar 06:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
This article is the most complete resource on the web for the Japanese sequel to Nintendo's 1985 smash hit Super Mario Bros. Critics say the title is best known for its extreme difficulty, but I'd wager it's better known for being confused with Super Mario Bros. 2, a completely different game. The Lost Levels was so difficult as to convince Nintendo of America against releasing the title in North America (that's how the "lost levels" were lost, until its re-introduction to English-speaking regions in 1993). But despite The Lost Levels' cultural confinement, the game performed a fair amount of forecasting for the series: its sadistic poison mushroom power-ups and differentiated abilities for Luigi persisted into other series games, but perhaps more salient is how the game served as a precursor to the contemporary fan community that creates challenging (read: impossible) Mario levels for each other, as well as the speedrunning community that attempted not just to finish these sadistic challenges, but with prowess.
The original Mario pulled the video game industry from the crash several years prior, and there was little games journalism infrastructure in place in 1986, nevertheless in English on a Japan-only title. As a result, most extant coverage of this game is retrospective, though I have delved into print media (especially books) to explore a history that isn't profitable for blogs. The writing is polished, direct, and I believe the prose approaches the "brilliance" we once required of FACs. In any event, it is ready for review, as the article is complete and revised. czar 06:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Czar:Something appears to be broken here, as this nomination is not showing up on the main FAC page. I only chanced across it because it was listed as a FAC at the video game project. Indrian (talk) 23:03, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Indrian, my fault—forgot to transclude czar 00:03, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Comments from IDV
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Looks good! I only found a few parts I'm unsure about:
--IDVtalk 08:35, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I missed this! I now support this FAC on prose.--IDVtalk 22:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Comments from Aoba47
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Wonderful work with this article! It was a very interesting read. My comments are relatively minor and nitpicky, and once they are addressed, then I would be more than happy to support this nomination. Aoba47 (talk) 13:46, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
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- Thank you for responding to my comments. I support this nomination. Great job with this. I will do the image review later today if that is okay with you. If possible, could you provide some comments to my current FAC? Aoba47 (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Comments from TheJoebro64
- Extremely minor, but there is a sentence in the reception section which begins with "indeed". I feel this is sort of un-encyclopedic. Other than that, this page looks great! Good work on this. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks! I think "indeed" helps underscore the point, and its use is grammatically correct. czar 22:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Mariobros2japanbox.jpg is properly sourced and licensed. All of the information in the non-free media information and use rationale box is completed. ALT text is well done.
- File:Super Mario Bros. 2 (Lost Levels).png ] is properly sourced and licensed. All of the information in the non-free media information and use rationale box is completed. ALT text is well done. The image is appropriately used in the section.
- File:Takashi Tezuka 2015 (cropped).jpg, File:Shigeru Miyamoto 2015 (cropped).jpg, and File:Kōji Kondō 2015 (cropped).jpg are all properly source and pulled from Wikimedia Commons. ALT text is well done for all of the images, and they are appropriately used in the section.
- File:Nintendo-Famicom-Disk-System.jpg is all properly source and pulled from Wikimedia Commons. ALT text is well done for all of the images, and it is appropriately used in the section.
Wonderful work with this article. This passes all of the requirements for the image review. Aoba47 (talk) 01:50, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Comments from AJona1992
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Comments from Giants2008
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Comments – Ah, here's a video game I'm actually in the process of playing on my old Game Boy Advance (on the Game Boy Color version, which works on the Advance). I'm really good at it, too—it only took me about five restarts to get through the fourth castle. :-) Here's the couple of issues I found:
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- Support – Since that was my only remaining concern with the article, and it appears that AJona's issue was also resolved, I see no reason not to support. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:04, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Source review from Cas Liber
- References formatted consistently, and webrefs archived.
- Earwig's copyvio clear.
- FN 15 - used twice, material faithful to source.
- FN 16 - used three times, material faithful to source.
- FN 25 - used twice, material faithful to source.
Spot check ok Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:24, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Coordinators
@FAC coordinators: , is this one good to go? Wanted to make sure bases are covered before Wikicup deadline (in a few days) czar 07:20, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Coordinator comments: A couple of issues for me. First, not all of the refs are in numerical order. Was this a conscious choice, as most articles use ascending numerical order for their refs. Also, I have a little issue with "Journalists have ranked The Lost Levels among the least important in the Mario series[38][39] and of Nintendo's top games" as this is referenced to a "125 top games" article. There is no indication in that article that the reviewer intends to make a negative "worst in series" comment, or is in fact making any such judgement on its importance (the article specifically says that it is explaining why each article is important). At a stretch, if all the other Mario games were in that article and listed above this one, I could just about accept the Mario comment except that there are 3 more "Mario" games below it in the list. And given that Nintendo has surely released substantially more than 125 games, I really cannot accept "least important of Nintendo's top games". Such an apparent misrepresentation of the source does worry me slightly. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:20, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Hi @Sarastro1, thanks. Yes, the refs are ordered by pertinence, not numerically. The "top games" sentence was discussed with IDV's comments above. I specifically avoided making a "worst in series" claim (what would "worst" mean?) but the articles did call the game among the "bottom tier" (#26 of 35) of the series and the other source implied the same (#16 of 18). Based on that, it wouldn't be appropriate to describe its legacy as illustrious or even lukewarm, and short of more descriptive language, the rankings do clearly show that the game was among the least important in the series. The argument is similar for the listing at #117 of 125—the least important of Nintendo's top games, though that's a mouthful. I think it would be more deceptive to omit that it was at the bottom of the list by saying only that it was just included in a list of top games without describing where it stood in that list. (And for what it's worth, I think that writing "ranked 117 of 125" instead of the qualitative description would make for shoddy prose. The sentence is also not written declaratively, with its rank/position as incontrovertible fact, but neutrally offers that journalists have ranked it in this position, which the sources support and which other sources can certainly refute, were they to exist.) Happy to discuss further, but know that it has indeed been discussed here, in the edit history, and on the article's talk page. czar 00:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- I see the discussion now (this is why it's not always helpful to collapse comments, but never mind). I'm still not entirely convinced that the reference really justifies saying it is one of the least important of Nintendo's top games, but I doubt it's worth holding the review up over this. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:05, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:05, 24 June 2017 (UTC)